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Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Roidininki on 24.09.16 18:03

You are allowed your opinion as I am mine . However I find your style dictatorial so  will quit this  particular  thread

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by aquila on 24.09.16 18:07

@Roidininki wrote:You are allowed your opinion as I am mine . However I find your style dictatorial so  will quit this  particular  thread
big grin

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Yorkshirgel on 24.09.16 18:11

Sorry to say I have to agree with @Roidininki  when he says the letter will not get to Theresa May.  I do not think it will either although it is an excellent letter.  Politicians like to hide things away if it may not get them brownie points to reveal them.  Dave Cameron is a good example of that.  I do not think bullet points should be in the letter, it is not a report is it.  We were asked to comment.  Did you mean 'comment' or did you mean 'criticize'?  Not meaning to be rude here.  I thought one of the rules was not to attack another member?

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by MayMuse on 24.09.16 18:13

@MayMuse wrote:I agree with the other members comments, it is excellent, thank you. 
Hope you don't mind my mentioning a couple of things to note; the paragraph shown below still requires the page number to be inserted for reference.  I wouldn't want Theresa May to overlook that or she may have to read the whole book, if not already?   winkwink Plus a typo? Amelia instead of Amelie in another paragraph. 
Easily done as it must have taken forever to collate and write but know how important it is for it to be "right". 

By contrast, the settled view of Dr Kate McCann, as set out on page of her book ‘madeleine’, is that the dogs made ‘false’ alerts because of ‘the conscious or unconscious signals of the handler”. This amounts to an attack on the professional integrity and judgment of Mr Grime and implies that the dogs were ‘mistaken’ in all of their 17 alerts to corpse scent and blood.



A fifth photograph, of Gerry McCann sitting by a pool with his daughters Madeleine and Amelia, is claimed by the McCanns to have been taken at 2.29pm on the day Madeleine was reported missing. 








And...
end of quotation missing  

10 The former Prime Minister acceding to a request made by his friend Rebekah Brooks, CEO of Rupert Murdoch’s News International empire, to set up Operation Grange, reportedly after threatening him with ‘a week of bad headlines about Theresa May. 






It's the little things that mean a lot Wink 
Would it be appropriate or necessary to include under Brian Kennedys list of involvement that he reportedly met with Robert Murat ( originally a suspect) and "offered him a job"...?

Also agree about mentioning the money the McCanns paid out to be "front page news" may be a good idea. 


As for the Prime Minister "reading" this letter, for what it's worth, I think she will have no choice than to do so due to the high profile of the case etc, even if she delegates it to provide answers/reply of which we are yet to see. I'm 100% behind sending this to Theresa May and believe she has a vested interest, IMO

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by aquila on 24.09.16 18:16

@Yorkshirgel wrote:Sorry to say I have to agree with @Roidininki  when he says the letter will not get to Theresa May.  I do not think it will either although it is an excellent letter.  Politicians like to hide things away if it may not get them brownie points to reveal them.  Dave Cameron is a good example of that.  I do not think bullet points should be in the letter, it is not a report is it.  We were asked to comment.  Did you mean 'comment' or did you mean 'criticize'?  Not meaning to be rude here.  I thought one of the rules was not to attack another member?
Oh dear, another 'don't attack another member' nonsense, when no-one is attacking anyone, between yourself and Roidininki you have just over 80 posts, yourself having only five and yet you speak of forum rules. I really wish time wasters would bugger off.

It's lovely though to see how the cockroaches come out when something meaningful happens on this forum.

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Yorkshirgel on 24.09.16 18:28

1. NO DISRUPTION ALLOWED - i.e. trying to derail threads

2. NEVER ATTACK ANOTHER MEMBER - that includes calling people trolls etc. Any worries contact admin or mods.

3. NO LIBELOUS POSTS

Forum Rules?

I am not attacking anyone either!  Just stating my opinion.

I am not a cockroach so no need to be rude.

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Ref;Draft letter to PM

Post by willowthewisp on 24.09.16 18:30

Hi Aquila,please be aware"Cockroaches" are thought to with stand an atomic explosion? So another members"opinions" may not cause too much damage,that is unless your a Cockroach,ouch?

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by aquila on 24.09.16 18:35

Get back on topic.

This letter is the dedicated work of people who care about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

This letter took a long and hard slog to assemble.

The cockroaches revealed themselves on the forum but it's the norm.

Ignore them and stay on topic.

This amazing letter which is being submitted on Monday contains nothing ambiguous and deserves an unambiguous reply.

FOI's don't work.

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by bobbin on 24.09.16 18:54

@aquila wrote:Get back on topic.

This letter is the dedicated work of people who care about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

This letter took a long and hard slog to assemble.

The cockroaches revealed themselves on the forum but it's the norm.

Ignore them and stay on topic.

This amazing letter which is being submitted on Monday contains nothing ambiguous and deserves an unambiguous reply.

FOI's don't work.
A brilliant letter.

This is NOT the time for bullet points, it's time to make sure that the Govt knows the content, that thousands of people have put in to this letter, which Jill has so succinctly expressed.

Whether Theresa May or one of her underlings reads it is not actually the point.

The fact is, a huge number of people are aware of the many facts and discrepancies re the McCann case, and this letter is the voice of the people.

Theresa May will be all too aware that the BREXIT vote left the govt dumbfounded and speechless, they were so unprepared for the fact that growing numbers are swelling by the day, and these numbers are not to be quietened until such time as justice, as understood by the electorate, is seen to be done.

The person who reads this letter will be obliged to inform upwards in the chain and Theresa May will have no freedom to say at a later stage that she had not been aware of what is in the letter.

If she delegates her letter-reading to a lower soul, and does not receive from that person a full appraisal of what the letter encompasses, then there will have been some dereliction.

Certainly she is a busy woman and will not have the time to read every letter sent in from every individual, but a letter which amounts to no longer than perhaps 10 to 15 minutes reading, sent on behalf of thousands and thousands of people, should not find itself being 'unread'.

It is not just a letter but a serious message that many, many eyes are focussed on what the Prime Minister will do regarding the very real concerns of the populace in the handling of the case of Madeleine McCann.

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Yorkshirgel on 24.09.16 19:09

I agree, it is a brilliant letter as I just stated.  Long but to the point.  A lot of hard work being done to produce it.

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Nina on 24.09.16 19:10

@aquila wrote:Get back on topic.

This letter is the dedicated work of people who care about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

This letter took a long and hard slog to assemble.

The cockroaches revealed themselves on the forum but it's the norm.

Ignore them and stay on topic.

This amazing letter which is being submitted on Monday contains nothing ambiguous and deserves an unambiguous reply.

FOI's don't work.
No need to submit the letter on Monday as it is all over the internet already and maybe TM is aware of it through her minions.

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Tony Bennett on 24.09.16 20:01

@bobbin wrote:
A brilliant letter.

This is NOT the time for bullet points, it's time to make sure that the Govt knows the content, that thousands of people have put in to this letter, which Jill has so succinctly expressed.

Whether Theresa May or one of her underlings reads it is not actually the point.

The fact is, a huge number of people are aware of the many facts and discrepancies re the McCann case, and this letter is the voice of the people...

...The person who reads this letter will be obliged to inform upwards in the chain and Theresa May will have no freedom to say at a later stage that she had not been aware of what is in the letter.

If she delegates her letter-reading to a lower soul, and does not receive from that person a full appraisal of what the letter encompasses, then there will have been some dereliction...

...It is not just a letter but a serious message that many, many eyes are focussed on what the Prime Minister will do regarding the very real concerns of the populace in the handling of the case of Madeleine McCann.
Thank you @ bobbin for these words and @ Nina who has expressed a similar point.

The following criticisms of the letter are all, or certainly are probably meant to be, constructive: 

"Too long! Just do bullet points!"

"Put this in! This is important, you've missed it out!" 

"Mis-spellings!"

"Typos".

But what I can't accept as a reasonable comment is: "You're wasting your time Jill, Theresa May won't read  it".

'bobbin' has saved me making the point that all sorts of official people will read it. The Prime Minister's staff. Home Office staff. Senior Met Police officers. After all, the government set up an extremely high level 'committee' including members of all sorts of government agencies to manage this case. It was set up under Leicestershire Police chief Matt Baggott on Tuesday 8 May!  The government-of-the-day obviously knew by then that there was something very serious about this case. When I submitted an FOI Act request asking just for the names of the agencies represented on this committee, they said: 'No. We won't tell you. It's secret!'    

But there's another point. Jill has run this forum for 6 years and 10 months. During that time, hundreds upon hundreds of research threads have been started. New facts have been unearthed and discussed. Not a few people have complained, and to an extent I agree with them, 'What's the point?'

The point of this letter seems to be, at least in part, to be some kind of 'end product' for all the hard work that's been put in here (and in many other places elsewhere for that matter). The conclusions of members here is being brought openly to the formal notice of the government  

Is it not the duty of every British subject to bring to the notice of the government something that they feel is going badly wrong? - in this case, Operation Grange.

Jill has put together raw material from this forum. Maybe too much, maybe too little. I know she will take into account all comments made on this thread.

And how many times in the past few years have we seen ordinary folk bringing things to the notice of the powers-that-be, yet they refused to act? 

Hillsborough. Jimmy Savile. Greville Janner.

Just think of the repercussions for the legacies of folk like David Cameron, Theresa May and Bernard Hogan-Howe if, one day, it's discovered that...

"Jill Havern's letter was right!"

____________________

                            "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?" - Amelie, May 2007 -  "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?"


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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by MayMuse on 24.09.16 20:22

@MayMuse wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:I agree with the other members comments, it is excellent, thank you. 
Hope you don't mind my mentioning a couple of things to note; the paragraph shown below still requires the page number to be inserted for reference.  I wouldn't want Theresa May to overlook that or she may have to read the whole book, if not already?   winkwink Plus a typo? Amelia instead of Amelie in another paragraph. 
Easily done as it must have taken forever to collate and write but know how important it is for it to be "right". 

By contrast, the settled view of Dr Kate McCann, as set out on page of her book ‘madeleine’, is that the dogs made ‘false’ alerts because of ‘the conscious or unconscious signals of the handler”. This amounts to an attack on the professional integrity and judgment of Mr Grime and implies that the dogs were ‘mistaken’ in all of their 17 alerts to corpse scent and blood.



A fifth photograph, of Gerry McCann sitting by a pool with his daughters Madeleine and Amelia, is claimed by the McCanns to have been taken at 2.29pm on the day Madeleine was reported missing. 








And...
end of quotation missing  

10 The former Prime Minister acceding to a request made by his friend Rebekah Brooks, CEO of Rupert Murdoch’s News International empire, to set up Operation Grange, reportedly after threatening him with ‘a week of bad headlines about Theresa May. 






It's the little things that mean a lot Wink 
Would it be appropriate or necessary to include under Brian Kennedys list of involvement that he reportedly met with Robert Murat ( originally a suspect) and "offered him a job"...?

Also agree about mentioning the money the McCanns paid out to be "front page news" may be a good idea. 


As for the Prime Minister "reading" this letter, for what it's worth, I think she will have no choice than to do so due to the high profile of the case etc, even if she delegates it to provide answers/reply of which we are yet to see. I'm 100% behind sending this to Theresa May and believe she has a vested interest, IMO
Nothing in my comment was meant as a criticism, apologies if it was perceived that way.

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“Basically, I’m just an ordinary, straightforward guy who’s the victim of the biggest f***-up on this planet – if you’ll excuse the language.”

Robert Murat talking to David Jones, Daily Mail, 02 June 2007

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Verdi on 24.09.16 20:43

@Roidininki wrote:I think you're sadly  mistaken in thinking Mrs May is going to spare the time to read this letter from a discussion site. I'm a realist you see.
It's not a case of Theresa May not sparing the time to read this letter.

Considering the gravity of this case, it would be ill-advised for the Prime Minister not to be appraised on the content of this letter.  The government is aware of the power of the internet, for good or bad, Theresa May cannot afford to ignore this - particularly when you bear in mind it was she who sanctioned the establishment of Operation Grange in the first place during her term as Home Secretary.

The peoples concern over the injustices surrounding Madeleine McCann will not go away.  I believe the past nine plus years have proved that.  Neither will Goncalo Amaral go away - no matter how hard the McCanns try to stifle him.

On with the Motley !

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Verdi on 24.09.16 20:48

@Yorkshirgel wrote:Sorry to say I have to agree with @Roidininki  when he says the letter will not get to Theresa May.
He?  I didn't know that..

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by plebgate on 24.09.16 20:52

Hi Jill - I would like to also say that it is an excellent letter and as stated sums up the very many questions that have been asked on this forum over the years. 

Well done to all those who have sent in questions to SY and I do believe that as these have been acknowledged and filed on computer they should be answered.

Well done PeterMac too.  Hope to see him back posting on this great forum soon.

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Verdi on 24.09.16 20:53

@Tony Bennett wrote:
Just think of the repercussions for the legacies of folk like David Cameron, Theresa May and Bernard Hogan-Howe if, one day, it's discovered that...

"Jill Havern's letter was right!"
If?  IF?  Eat your words sir .. smilie

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Nina on 24.09.16 21:13

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@bobbin wrote:
A brilliant letter.

This is NOT the time for bullet points, it's time to make sure that the Govt knows the content, that thousands of people have put in to this letter, which Jill has so succinctly expressed.

Whether Theresa May or one of her underlings reads it is not actually the point.

The fact is, a huge number of people are aware of the many facts and discrepancies re the McCann case, and this letter is the voice of the people...

...The person who reads this letter will be obliged to inform upwards in the chain and Theresa May will have no freedom to say at a later stage that she had not been aware of what is in the letter.

If she delegates her letter-reading to a lower soul, and does not receive from that person a full appraisal of what the letter encompasses, then there will have been some dereliction...

...It is not just a letter but a serious message that many, many eyes are focussed on what the Prime Minister will do regarding the very real concerns of the populace in the handling of the case of Madeleine McCann.
Thank you @ bobbin for these words and @ Nina who has expressed a similar point.

The following criticisms of the letter are all, or certainly are probably meant to be, constructive: 

"Too long! Just do bullet points!"

"Put this in! This is important, you've missed it out!" 

"Mis-spellings!"

"Typos".

But what I can't accept as a reasonable comment is: "You're wasting your time Jill, Theresa May won't read  it".

'bobbin' has saved me making the point that all sorts of official people will read it. The Prime Minister's staff. Home Office staff. Senior Met Police officers. After all, the government set up an extremely high level 'committee' including members of all sorts of government agencies to manage this case. It was set up under Leicestershire Police chief Matt Baggott on Tuesday 8 May!  The government-of-the-day obviously knew by then that there was something very serious about this case. When I submitted an FOI Act request asking just for the names of the agencies represented on this committee, they said: 'No. We won't tell you. It's secret!'    

But there's another point. Jill has run this forum for 6 years and 10 months. During that time, hundreds upon hundreds of research threads have been started. New facts have been unearthed and discussed. Not a few people have complained, and to an extent I agree with them, 'What's the point?'

The point of this letter seems to be, at least in part, to be some kind of 'end product' for all the hard work that's been put in here (and in many other places elsewhere for that matter). The conclusions of members here is being brought openly to the formal notice of the government  

Is it not the duty of every British subject to bring to the notice of the government something that they feel is going badly wrong? - in this case, Operation Grange.

Jill has put together raw material from this forum. Maybe too much, maybe too little. I know she will take into account all comments made on this thread.

And how many times in the past few years have we seen ordinary folk bringing things to the notice of the powers-that-be, yet they refused to act? 

Hillsborough. Jimmy Savile. Greville Janner.

Just think of the repercussions for the legacies of folk like David Cameron, Theresa May and Bernard Hogan-Howe if, one day, it's discovered that...

"Jill Havern's letter was right!"
Agreed @Tony Bennett, just wish that I had read of it after it had been sent.

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Tony Bennett on 24.09.16 21:41

@Verdi wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
Just think of the repercussions for the legacies of folk like David Cameron, Theresa May and Bernard Hogan-Howe if, one day, it's discovered that...

"Jill Havern's letter was right!"
If?  IF?  Eat your words sir .. smilie
I will eat them if made in marzipan, as per the preposterous Paddy Ashdown on General Election night 2015:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_l7-l2XnsY

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                            "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?" - Amelie, May 2007 -  "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?"


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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Verdi on 24.09.16 23:33

@Nina wrote:
No need to submit the letter on Monday as it is all over the internet already and maybe TM is aware of it through her minions.
Yep it is indeed - and the usual suspects are already trying to publicly ridicule the estimable work. 

Little do they know, all they are doing in reality is widening the audience - sort of Streisand effect.  People can decide for themselves whether this work is meritorious or not, they don't need some cyber non-entity that trawls the internet 24/7 looking for mischief, telling them how to think.

Fools - they're like it and they don't know..


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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Verdi on 24.09.16 23:37

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
Just think of the repercussions for the legacies of folk like David Cameron, Theresa May and Bernard Hogan-Howe if, one day, it's discovered that...

"Jill Havern's letter was right!"
If?  IF?  Eat your words sir .. smilie
I will eat them if made in marzipan, as per the preposterous Paddy Ashdown on General Election night 2015:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_l7-l2XnsY
big grin   Second thoughts - wash your mouth out sir..

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by bobbin on 25.09.16 11:06

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
Just think of the repercussions for the legacies of folk like David Cameron, Theresa May and Bernard Hogan-Howe if, one day, it's discovered that...

"Jill Havern's letter was right!"
If?  IF?  Eat your words sir .. smilie
I will eat them if made in marzipan, as per the preposterous Paddy Ashdown on General Election night 2015:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_l7-l2XnsY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_l7-l2XnsY

It's Sunday, time to relax and maybe laugh a little, even if a little cynically.

Up to 2.12 mins on the YouTube above, just look at Nigel Farage's position in the predicted polls, then the actual seats won, and then UKIP's representation in parliament.

Then take some comfort, especially with regard to fears that Jill's letter and the voice of the people can't have any effect.

BREXIT was far, far more than people saying they didn't want to be members of the 'EU club' any more.

They were expressing a long pent up volcanic eruption of anger and discontent at the political 'MIS-representation' of the electorate and at the utter disdain that politicians have told themselves they are entitled to adopt, to dismiss the people who put them in charge, and who pay them, to act responsibly when running the country, for and on behalf of the electorate'.

The 'little' people, when sufficiently fired up, especially by such injustice as we have seen in the Madeleine McCann case, will NOT go away.
The British Bulldog can still fiercely and proudly boast a bite to be reckoned with.

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by whatsupdoc on 25.09.16 12:12

Agreed, bobbin. I believe UKIP got 3.8  million votes for their 1 seat in Parliament.

In the Referendum, every vote counted.

Here's a thought...what if we had a lady volunteer to do a voice over of the letter and put it on YouTube?

Entries could be submitted as an MP3 file.

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by Mirage on 25.09.16 17:25

Spot on, Bobbin. The Establishment have, in the words of Nigel Farage's prediction,  had an earthquake erupt beneath them.

I don't  agree with Corbyn, but in many respects he is coming at the same problem from the opposite end of the spectrum by ( notionally at least, as I don't  blindly trust any politician) transferring power back to the little people.

As Farage is wont to say: First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." The same path is being trod by Corbyn and it is instructive to see how the likes of Marr and the BBC in toto hate this insidious shift in the balance of power.
 
What scares them most is the interest the young are taking in politics. However, the Tories have shot their bolt in that quarter thanks to that  bully who was given free rein to harrass and intimidate young people on those infamous road trips.


In this volatile political climate Theresa May would be a crass idiot to ignore Jill's letter.

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Re: Draft Letter to Prime Minister re Operation Grange - Comments Please

Post by aquila on 25.09.16 17:45

@Nina wrote:
@aquila wrote:Get back on topic.

This letter is the dedicated work of people who care about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

This letter took a long and hard slog to assemble.

The cockroaches revealed themselves on the forum but it's the norm.

Ignore them and stay on topic.

This amazing letter which is being submitted on Monday contains nothing ambiguous and deserves an unambiguous reply.

FOI's don't work.
No need to submit the letter on Monday as it is all over the internet already and maybe TM is aware of it through her minions.
There's nothing like a first class postage stamp and a receipt request though.

aquila

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