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JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by tinkier on 23.09.16 13:57

@BlueBag wrote:
@Doug D wrote:BlueBag:
 
‘If anyone else can think of another rational reason for that handle I'd like to hear it.
 
It makes no sense as part of a garroting device, staged or not.’
 
I confess I’m not up to speed on the case, but I think the handle & loop would work well for a youngster who didn’t have the strength to pull the two ends of a ‘normal’ garotte, or maybe even the knowledge of how one was used. More of a 'hanging type device' or restraint that could easily have been picked up from children's TV, cartoons etc.
 
Push the stick through the loop and then a hand on the stick either side of the knot (and maybe a knee in the back or even standing, to brace) would do the trick to start with and maybe then a drag & attachment to a door or cupboard handle using the stick as the retainer, in a ‘hanging’ manner.
   
I don’t think it would have anything to do with twisting and tightening.
It was a slip knot.

And as the old forensic pathologist guy (who has been involved in 60,000 cases) said, it was unnecessary and useless "why do you need the stick".

@1.22.00

Yes, the pathologist stated an adult would not have needed to use an implement like that anyway. I also wondered where a nine year old would have learned how to do this type of knot...could have been a family member I suppose, or he might have been a part of a scout group or similar. I now see all the evidence pointing directly at Burke Ramsey, it all fits, for me anyway.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by whodunit on 24.09.16 20:43

1. The garrote.

...Non-operational. Only used by the Stagers for purposes of misdirection because the real device used in the strangulation would have contained too much evidence against the real murderer. The autopsy photos show TWO strangulation groove marks on the neck, [and petechiae, proving she was alive when strangled]  one for the twine/rope used in the staged garotte device, the other made by the real murder weapon. [possibly a scarf. Curiously, JB was said to have been buried with a scarf]

2. The DNA

...I'm not sure what the CBS doc claimed about the DNA because I stopped watching once Dr. Werner Spitz insisted conclusively that the head wound came first. Oh really Dr. Spitz? So 7cc's of blood, 1 1/2 teaspoons! from a massive 8 inch head wound, is enough blood to prove the child was alive when struck on the head? According to Dr. Wecht, this is not bleeding 'this is seepage'.  Was the claim the DNA was deposited during the  'manufacturing process'--oh really? So the same factory and the same factory worker produced both the underwear and the long johns?--or was the explanation that 'touch DNA' was transferred between the items? If the latter, I'm going to need to see studies which prove transference of 'touch DNA' is even possible. In any case neither of these explanations address the possibility that the same DNA was found under JB's fingernails, and neither of these explanations reach any level of credibility until it can be proven that all males close to this case have given DNA samples for comparison, Fleet White among them.



3. Was JB asleep or awake when the family arrived home from the White's Christmas party?

...Initially, there was a conflict in the statements of Burke and his parents on this point. I'm sorry I can't remember which way it went but it hardly matters. Burke said one thing, his parents said another. How hard can it be to remember this detail? EIther she 'went skipping' into the house or she had to be carried because she was sleeping. Eventually they all got their stories straight and agreed she WAS asleep. Asleep? Or dead because something happened to her earlier in the evening.. that is the question, in my mind at least.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 25.09.16 7:40

@whodunit wrote:...I'm not sure what the CBS doc claimed about the DNA because I stopped watching once Dr. Werner Spitz insisted conclusively that the head wound came first. Oh really Dr. Spitz? So 7cc's of blood, 1 1/2 teaspoons! from a massive 8 inch head wound, is enough blood to prove the child was alive when struck on the head? 
The autopsy said she was struck first.

The autopsy report said she had a subdural hemorrhage.

The amount of blood found can be limited due to something called the Monro-Kellie Doctrine.

http://casemed.case.edu/clerkships/neurology/Web%20Neurorad/subduralhema.htm

Basically the pressure from expanding brain tissue squeezes other stuff.

I'm not sure your claim is sound.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 25.09.16 7:49

Websleuths is an excellent resource for this case.


Rather than quote each poster who keeps repeating that there was “little bleeding in the brain” or a “small (or “minimal”) amount of blood”, I’m addressing this to anyone who is under that misconception: 

There was a lot more blood present in her skull (in several different layers) than what most people seem to think. There was about as much blood present as the skull will allow before its swollen state slows down the bleeding. There isn’t that much “room” or “empty space” inside the skull to begin with. To allow for excess blood, the pressure inside the brain has to equalize with the pressure in the arteries. This is what happens when the skull is being inundated with blood and cerebrospinal fluid caused by trauma. Eventually the ICP (intracranial pressure) will overcome the blood pressure, slowing or stopping the blood flow. I know where this misconception of “minimal blood” came from -- it came from Dr. Wecht’s early pronouncement that there was only about one and a half teaspoons of blood. That is not entirely correct. Read the AR for yourself, or read the translation here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...90#post9054790). That estimate of 7 to 8 cc (1-1/2 teaspoons) only accounts for one area of bleeding: the subdural hemorrhage. In addition to that “subdural hemorrhage”, there was also a “subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere”, “an extensive linear area of purple contusion” which “measures 8 inches in length with a width of up to 1.75 inches” (a contusion is made up of blood that leaks from the blood vessels into the affected tissue), and the blood found initially outside of the skull after reflection of the scalp (“an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area” which “encompasses an area measuring approximately 7x4 inches.”). In total, this isNOT a “small” or “minimal” amount of bleeding!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?27909-Head-injury-vs-strangulation-***WARNING!-AUTOPSY-PHOTOS!***/page16

I think you should watch the rest of the documentary whodunnit.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by whodunit on 25.09.16 8:14

@BlueBag wrote:Websleuths is an excellent resource for this case.


Rather than quote each poster who keeps repeating that there was “little bleeding in the brain” or a “small (or “minimal”) amount of blood”, I’m addressing this to anyone who is under that misconception: 

There was a lot more blood present in her skull (in several different layers) than what most people seem to think. There was about as much blood present as the skull will allow before its swollen state slows down the bleeding. There isn’t that much “room” or “empty space” inside the skull to begin with. To allow for excess blood, the pressure inside the brain has to equalize with the pressure in the arteries. This is what happens when the skull is being inundated with blood and cerebrospinal fluid caused by trauma. Eventually the ICP (intracranial pressure) will overcome the blood pressure, slowing or stopping the blood flow. I know where this misconception of “minimal blood” came from -- it came from Dr. Wecht’s early pronouncement that there was only about one and a half teaspoons of blood. That is not entirely correct. Read the AR for yourself, or read the translation here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...90#post9054790). That estimate of 7 to 8 cc (1-1/2 teaspoons) only accounts for one area of bleeding: the subdural hemorrhage. In addition to that “subdural hemorrhage”, there was also a “subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere”, “an extensive linear area of purple contusion” which “measures 8 inches in length with a width of up to 1.75 inches” (a contusion is made up of blood that leaks from the blood vessels into the affected tissue), and the blood found initially outside of the skull after reflection of the scalp (“an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area” which “encompasses an area measuring approximately 7x4 inches.”). In total, this isNOT a “small” or “minimal” amount of bleeding!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?27909-Head-injury-vs-strangulation-***WARNING!-AUTOPSY-PHOTOS!***/page16

I think you should watch the rest of the documentary whodunnit.

I haven't time to address the autopsy report right now but I do want to stress that for a number of reasons that I will come back to later Websleuths is NOT a good resource on this case.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 25.09.16 9:13

@whodunit wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Websleuths is an excellent resource for this case.


Rather than quote each poster who keeps repeating that there was “little bleeding in the brain” or a “small (or “minimal”) amount of blood”, I’m addressing this to anyone who is under that misconception: 

There was a lot more blood present in her skull (in several different layers) than what most people seem to think. There was about as much blood present as the skull will allow before its swollen state slows down the bleeding. There isn’t that much “room” or “empty space” inside the skull to begin with. To allow for excess blood, the pressure inside the brain has to equalize with the pressure in the arteries. This is what happens when the skull is being inundated with blood and cerebrospinal fluid caused by trauma. Eventually the ICP (intracranial pressure) will overcome the blood pressure, slowing or stopping the blood flow. I know where this misconception of “minimal blood” came from -- it came from Dr. Wecht’s early pronouncement that there was only about one and a half teaspoons of blood. That is not entirely correct. Read the AR for yourself, or read the translation here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...90#post9054790). That estimate of 7 to 8 cc (1-1/2 teaspoons) only accounts for one area of bleeding: the subdural hemorrhage. In addition to that “subdural hemorrhage”, there was also a “subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere”, “an extensive linear area of purple contusion” which “measures 8 inches in length with a width of up to 1.75 inches” (a contusion is made up of blood that leaks from the blood vessels into the affected tissue), and the blood found initially outside of the skull after reflection of the scalp (“an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area” which “encompasses an area measuring approximately 7x4 inches.”). In total, this isNOT a “small” or “minimal” amount of bleeding!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?27909-Head-injury-vs-strangulation-***WARNING!-AUTOPSY-PHOTOS!***/page16

I think you should watch the rest of the documentary whodunnit.

I haven't time to address the autopsy report right now but I do want to stress that for a number of reasons that I will come back to later Websleuths is NOT a good resource on this case.

There are all kinds of opinion on Websleuths.

Much like here.

Much of it is good.

The above about the bleeding is a case in point.

Don't waste time attacking Websleuths, address the point about amounts of blood, cranial pressure and the injury.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by MayMuse on 25.09.16 22:58

Looks like trouble ahead; lawyer is suing CBS on behalf of Burke who is also prepared to take a lie detector test, not surprising! 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/jonbenet-ramseys-brother-burke-offers-8911243

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by April28th on 26.09.16 6:22

Polygraph tests may be good enough for Jeremy Kyle, but there's a reason they are inadmissible in court. Plus, he may well not be able to take a test if he is taking any anti-anxiety meds or such.

If he really wants to prove his innocence, he should allow himself to be called for deposition regarding the facts in the documentary. A similar thing happened in the West Memphis 3 case, where a potential suspect opened himself up to deposition (in which he really did not look good) because he tried to sue Natalie Maines..

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by Doug D on 26.09.16 8:42

Former neighbour comes out of the woodwork and is prepared to put her name to her statement to The Sun:
 
MURDER FINALLY SOLVED? Friend of beauty queen JonBenet’s family backs theory brother killed her and parents covered it up
 
Judith Phillips, a Ramsey family friend for more than ten years, told how she had often seen flashes of brother's temper
 
BY CAROLINE IGGULDEN IN NEW YORK 25th September 2016, 11:00 pm
 
IT is almost 20 years since the body of six-year-old beauty pageant queen JonBenét Ramsey was found bludgeoned and strangled in the wine cellar of her parents’ suburban home.
 
Yet the world’s fascination with the bizarre circumstances surrounding the Christmas murder shows no sign of fading.
 
Last week a US documentary claimed JonBenét’s brother Burke, who at the time was just nine years old, could be to blame for the death which his parents hastily covered up.
No charges have ever been filed and authorities have stated in the past that Burke, now 29, is NOT a suspect.
He strongly denies he or his parents were involved in the crime and has offered to take a lie-detector test.
 
But a fresh storm erupted this month as viewers say he was grinning while discussing his ­sister’s death with US TV psychologist Dr Phil.
The case unfolded on Boxing Day morning, 1996, when mum Patsy called 911 claiming her daughter was missing and she had found a ransom note in her home in Boulder, Colorado.
Just hours later, after detectives had arrived, John Ramsey discovered JonBenét’s body in the basement.
 
In addition to a fractured skull, the girl’s wrists were tied over her head and duct tape covered her mouth. She had been strangled with a garrotte fashioned from a broken paintbrush — the remnants of which were found in Patsy’s art box.
Footage soon emerged showing JonBenét in child beauty pageants, plastered in make-up with a bouffant. The images made the case unforgettable.
Now, in CBS documentary The Case of JonBenét Ramsey, a former investigator for Boulder’s District Attorney gave his theory that the little girl and her brother clashed over a snack of fresh pineapple.
 
JonBenét’s autopsy report showed undigested pineapple in her system. It was a clue which had baffled investigators, given her parents claimed their daughter was asleep when they returned from a Christmas party and had been put straight to bed.
Crime scene footage showed a bowl of pineapple and a glass of iced tea both bearing Burke’s fingerprints.
Patsy always denied knowledge of the pineapple or how it ended up on the table, despite her fingerprints also being found on the bowl.
 
On the programme former investigator James Kolar states: “I think the Ramseys came home at around 9.30, 10 o’clock. I think JonBenét was asleep.
“I think John did carry her upstairs. Patsy remained downstairs with Burke and served him the tea and pineapple.
“Then she got JonBenét up to make sure she used the toilet.”
James claims JonBenét later went downstairs and grabbed a chunk of Burke’s pineapple causing her furious brother to hit her with a flashlight.
The TV documentary also pointed out two red marks on JonBenét’s lower back could have been made by a piece of Burke’s toy train track.
The new probe suggested Burke may have poked his sister with the track when he realised she wasn’t moving.
 
For many years JonBenét’s millionaire businessman dad John, 72, and Patsy were the chief suspects.
Cops speculated former beauty queen Patsy, who died of ovarian cancer aged 49 in 2006, could have lost her temper, perhaps over JonBenét’s bedwetting.
The family claims an intruder was responsible. Supporters of that theory have pointed to a footprint in the basement from an unknown boot.
In 2008 Boulder’s District Attorney exonerated John and Patsy after DNA belonging to an unidentified man was detected on JonBenét’s leggings and underwear. But critics have claimed the forensics were not robust enough.
 
Judith Phillips, 64, a Ramsey family friend for more than ten years, told The Sun how she had often seen flashes of Burke’s temper and believes the theory he is the culprit.
 
She said: “People always think of JonBenét in the ­pageant costumes but she was a tomboy who loved jumping in piles of leaves or getting muddy.
 
“Burke was quiet, reserved and very into computer technology. I had seen him have emotional outbursts.”
 
Judith first met the Ramseys when the family lived in Atlanta, Georgia. They became neighbours again when the Ramseys moved to Boulder several years after Judith and her family had relocated to the town.
 
Judith said: “When Burke was born he was the absolute apple of Patsy’s eye. Then along came this little girl who stole all the attention. He could well have been very jealous.”
Photographer Judith also claimed Burke had hit his sister with a golf club a year before her murder, leaving her with a scar on her cheek.
In the aftermath of the murder, Judith found it strange when the Ramseys asked their circle of friends not to speak to police or the media.
She added: “To me it seemed odd they would give a big television interview but not work with police.”
And Judith revealed one part of the ransom note seemed familiar.
 
She revealed: “A phrase used, ‘And hence’, leaped out at me. I had received a Christmas newsletter from the family and the phrase was used in that too. It seemed like not something people generally say.”
The bizarre two-and-a-half page letter was written on a pad from Patsy’s writing desk, using a pen found later underneath the Ramseys’ phone.
Imprints on the pad suggest practice notes had been scribbled. Cops ruled out John and Burke as the author but were unable to eliminate Patsy.
Judith admitted: “I agree with the theory Burke killed JonBenét but I don’t think he meant to do it. I think Patsy did everything in her power to protect her living child. I think she wrote the ransom note whilst John staged the scene in the basement.
 
“After calling the police Patsy began inviting friends over to the house and in the commotion John went missing for an hour and half. It is my opinion he was disposing of evidence.”
Operator Kim Archuletta, who took Patsy’s 911 call, believes the panicked mum’s voice changed after
Patsy mistakenly thought she had hung up. Kim said: “You hear the frantic tone in her voice as she was speaking to me. It immediately stopped.”
In the past it has been claimed voice enhancements of the tape pick up John saying: “We’re not speaking to you” before Patsy allegedly asks: “What did you do? Help me, Jesus.”
 
Some claim Burke’s voice can be heard asking: “What did you find?” — even though his parents have always claimed he was asleep at the time.
Burke, who now leads a reclusive life working from home as a software engineer, denied in his recent interview he was involved.
He said: “That’s not what happened. There’s been people who have said that’s not even physically possible for a nine-year-old to do that.”
 
And the Ramseys’ lawyer Lin Wood told The Sun he was unsurprised by Burke’s demeanour during the interview with Dr Phil. He said: “He can come across awkward and he has a nervous smile during difficult conversations. But he wanted to speak out.”
Lin revealed the Ramseys plan to sue over the documentary, which he said contains “no legitimate evidence”.
He added the latest theory ignores evidence of a possible sexual assault and suggestions in the autopsy report that JonBenét may have died by asphyxiation not a blow to the head.
Over the years police have looked into 160 potential suspects and quizzed known paedophiles but none could be reliably placed at the scene.
“If JonBenèt were alive she would be a 26-year-old woman now,” Judith said. “It just breaks my heart she may never receive justice.”
 
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1851552/friend-of-jonbenet-family-backs-theory-brother-killed-her-and-parents-covered-it-up/

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by MayMuse on 26.09.16 14:49

^^^^^^ All of the above was in the documentary, I suspect the Sun have not interviewed her, just chewing and spewing as usual to make a dime!

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by Yorkshirgel on 29.09.16 15:36

Only one thing wrong with the theory that her brother killed her.  He was nine years old.  She had been raped!  Please correct me if that is wrong but I am sure that is what the forensics showed.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 29.09.16 16:12

@Yorkshirgel wrote:Only one thing wrong with the theory that her brother killed her.  He was nine years old.  She had been raped!  Please correct me if that is wrong but I am sure that is what the forensics showed.
No she hadn't been raped.

Abused yes, with an object that left a splinter and was a coated material, probably the paint brush - at the time of the murder certainly, and some evidence for previous. 

Raped no.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 29.12.16 12:17

The older brother of JonBenét Ramsey is suing the US television network CBS and others for $750m (£610m), saying his reputation was ruined after a television series concluded he killed his six-year-old sister two decades ago.

Here's the link for the Court papers.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/586410bdebbd1ab7ab599273/1482952897212/Burke+Ramsey+Complaint+vs+CBS+et+al+FINAL.pdf

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