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JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 21.09.16 16:26

The 911 call by Patsy Ramsey is not right.

She rings up and drops the call without even knowing that the Police are on their way.

In my opinion there is no way you would leave the call without knowing there is something definitive going to happen.

Then she thinks she hung up but the call was still being recorded.

Then you can hear three voices in the background, one of them Burke who the parents said was still in bed.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 21.09.16 16:42

@Doug D wrote:Family of murdered child beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey vow to sue over documentary that suggests brother may have been involved
Good.

This needs to be slugged out with a new analysis of the evidence.

The film team wanted to analyse the flashlight and cords using latest DNA techniques.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by MayMuse on 21.09.16 19:28

@BlueBag wrote:
@Doug D wrote:Family of murdered child beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey vow to sue over documentary that suggests brother may have been involved
Good.

This needs to be slugged out with a new analysis of the evidence.

The film team wanted to analyse the flashlight and cords using latest DNA techniques.
I agree everything could be re-analysed to help put it to rest. I've watched the whole docu and the end conclusion could be possible, however it still does not convince that if this did happen in this way that both parents then systematically tortured their daughters body to look like an intruder/paedophile? One of the team in the documentary said follow the evidence of past actions and nowhere is there any violence from either parent, so how come they suddenly could concoct this situation in a matter of a few hours? 
Needs more in my opinion, unfortunately it appears (as things have gone so far) that the Madeleine McCann case may still be unsolved in 20 years just like JonBenet, a saddening thought.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by Verdi on 21.09.16 20:33

@MayMuse wrote:
@Verdi wrote:So the nine year old brother Burke was systematically sexually abusing his sister prior to her murder?  No further comment!
 
 Jonbenet was a beautiful child and her last moments do not bear thinking about, the pain, the fear; I just cannot see anyone who loved her putting her through such a horrendous, torturous experience and watching her take her last breath!
JonBenet Ramsay was an ordinary six year old child regularly made up to look twenty years older.  It's an established fact that the majority of cases of child abuse involve a family member or someone close to the family.

The evidence shows that JonBenet Ramsay had been systematically sexually abused - it therefore has to be a close family member or she was being pimped.  Either way the parents were deeply involved, no way can I believe that the parents were unaware of what was happening to their daughter.

It's a conspiracy, which appears to be the norm in most cases of child abuse - somebody needs to be asking why..

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 21.09.16 21:34

The DNA.

The people in the film bought some new panties from a shop.

They were covered in DNA from the manufacturing process.

DNA is can also be transferred by contact with other items of clothing.

The DNA did not exonerate the parents - the authorities were wrong to say it did.

There were political decisions being made all along - the DA was a disgrace.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by April28th on 21.09.16 23:24

Thank you @MayMuse for linking the documentary. I will come back with my thoughts after viewing.

@BlueBag You raise good points, as always. DNA is subject to transferrance if mishandled. This is hard to dismiss - but two things spring to mind.

1. Surely the Boulder City PD/relevant analysing body (ies?) would have introduced controls as well as reference samples? This even happened in Portugal (see GNR guys dna being found in 5A).

2. Can we assume that JonBenet was wearing the underwear in question for the very first time (and I readily admit logic dictates that after Christmas or Birthday the likelihood of this would spike)? If not, we should (unless we are assuming she was not well looked after - for which I have seen zero evidence) introduce the idea of the underwear being fresh and the added dna elements being either a: unique or b: the result of a sample surviving the washing process (whatever that was in the household in 1996). If either of those yielded (or yields) results then I will happily climb down over the DNA evidence and amend my position to interpret the new information.

ETA: I also agree with the previous observation that it is odd to still be wearing underwear if wearing pyjamas.

To the quote Tony referenced about admissions and yeast infections - to my knowledge (which as always I am open to correction on), their GP testified that there was no prior abuse or evidence of such to his knowledge. Assuming the GP is truthful - and assuming the FBI agent was being truthful about evidence he saw - where do these claims originate?

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by sallypelt on 21.09.16 23:34

I am trying to post a link on this thread but I am getting a message to say I have no right to post on here. Anyone know what this means?




That worked, so I'll try again:

DID HE DO IT?
JonBenet Ramsey’s ‘disturbed’ brother ‘smeared her bedroom and Christmas presents with poo’ amid claims HE killed the six year-old beauty queen





https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1826692/jonbenet-ramseys-disturbed-brother-smeared-her-bedroom-and-christmas-presents-with-poo-amid-claims-he-killed-the-six-year-old-beauty-queen/

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by April28th on 21.09.16 23:51

@sallypelt wrote:I am trying to post a link on this thread but I am getting a message to say I have no right to post on here. Anyone know what this means?




That worked, so I'll try again:

DID HE DO IT?
JonBenet Ramsey’s ‘disturbed’ brother ‘smeared her bedroom and Christmas presents with poo’ amid claims HE killed the six year-old beauty queen





https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1826692/jonbenet-ramseys-disturbed-brother-smeared-her-bedroom-and-christmas-presents-with-poo-amid-claims-he-killed-the-six-year-old-beauty-queen/

I come to a brick wall when I see Werner Spitz mentioned. I see him as a kind of 'hero', whose insights and expertise helped the WM3 get justice finally. But I am also infinitely aware of the US policy of allowing 'experts for hire' on both sides of cases.

'They cited the evidence of a housekeeper who said excrement the size of a grapefruit was once smeared on the young girl’s bed sheets.'

Maybe this is just me, but notice the reference is just 'once'. On top of this the average grapefruit size is 4-6 inches. I don't want to belabour such an unpleasant point but is that kind of size and remnant (after smearing) relevant to a nine year old boy? 

More article text:

The operator who took the call, Kim Archuletta, said: "It sounded like she said, 'OK, we've called the police, now what?' and that disturbed me.

"So I remained on the phone trying to listen to what was being said. It sounded like there were two voices in the room, maybe three.


Post-event these assumptions ipso facto mean nothing in an evidentiary sense. I have listened to the call after the fact several times, and certainly hear Patsy and a second voice. But beyond that I feel like we are just applying language to distortion, and as such offering little that would stand up in a court.


ETA 2 - To the idea that charges could be brought against CBS - fantastic. It would open up the proposition of depositions, which would in turn tell us a ton.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by tinkier on 22.09.16 3:30

@BlueBag wrote:The DNA.

The people in the film bought some new panties from a shop.

They were covered in DNA from the manufacturing process.

DNA is can also be transferred by contact with other items of clothing.

The DNA did not exonerate the parents - the authorities were wrong to say it did.

There were political decisions being made all along - the DA was a disgrace.
1st part of the documentary by CBS.. review of the evidence by many leading experts in their specific fields, some even worked on the case at the beginning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah4UhHe6cX0

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 22.09.16 7:52

@April28th wrote:
2. Can we assume that JonBenet was wearing the underwear in question for the very first time (and I readily admit logic dictates that after Christmas or Birthday the likelihood of this would spike)? If not, we should (unless we are assuming she was not well looked after - for which I have seen zero evidence) introduce the idea of the underwear being fresh and the added dna elements being either a: unique or b: the result of a sample surviving the washing process (whatever that was in the household in 1996). If either of those yielded (or yields) results then I will happily climb down over the DNA evidence and amend my position to interpret the new information.
I've never seen it disputed that they were new - and oversized - taken from a new package.

I think the source is Patsy Ramsey, I'll try and find a reference.

edit:
-----------

Patsy Ramsey, Atlanta 2000
" I am sure that I put the package of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened them and put them on. "


http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682505/Second%20Floor

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 22.09.16 16:53

This puzzled me.



What possible use was that stick on the end of the cord?

I just saw a thread on Websleuths where it was suggested that it would be useful for dragging the body (two handed). Obviously someone not strong enough to pick her up with ease.

Then it made sense.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by nomendelta on 22.09.16 17:29

@BlueBag wrote:This puzzled me.



What possible use was that stick on the end of the cord?

I just saw a thread on Websleuths where it was suggested that it would be useful for dragging the body (two handed). Obviously someone not strong enough to pick her up with ease.

Then it made sense.

The investigators on the show concluded that the whole reason for the stick garrote was to make it look like it was a strangulation and draw attention from the head injury as cause of death. It was so unnecessarily overdone, basically.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 22.09.16 19:10

@nomendelta wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:This puzzled me.



What possible use was that stick on the end of the cord?

I just saw a thread on Websleuths where it was suggested that it would be useful for dragging the body (two handed). Obviously someone not strong enough to pick her up with ease.

Then it made sense.

The investigators on the show concluded that the whole reason for the stick garrote was to make it look like it was a strangulation and draw attention from the head injury as cause of death. It was so unnecessarily overdone, basically.
I think they said they couldn't see the point of it.. "what is that?".. the old guy.

As an addition to a garrote device it is 100% useless.

However there is a point and makes it all more understandable.

Why?

If Burke had just hit his sister over the head I think they could have rode that wave - it was terrible, death wan't intentional, it was an accident and he never meant to kill her.... 

If Burke had hit her his sister over the head and in an attempt to deal with the situation (in his autistic 9-year-old way) was trying to move the body somewhere by dragging it using the cord and the handle... well it just looks a whole lot more creepy.

I think the parents found her with the cord and brush stem already a done deal.

That paint brush has puzzled me big time. Now I think I can see what it was about.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by MayMuse on 22.09.16 20:39

@BlueBag wrote:
@April28th wrote:
2. Can we assume that JonBenet was wearing the underwear in question for the very first time (and I readily admit logic dictates that after Christmas or Birthday the likelihood of this would spike)? If not, we should (unless we are assuming she was not well looked after - for which I have seen zero evidence) introduce the idea of the underwear being fresh and the added dna elements being either a: unique or b: the result of a sample surviving the washing process (whatever that was in the household in 1996). If either of those yielded (or yields) results then I will happily climb down over the DNA evidence and amend my position to interpret the new information.
I've never seen it disputed that they were new - and oversized - taken from a new package.

I think the source is Patsy Ramsey, I'll try and find a reference.

edit:
-----------

Patsy Ramsey, Atlanta 2000
" I am sure that I put the package of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened them and put them on. "


http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682505/Second%20Floor

Same DNA on two separate items of clothing, pants AND leggings, so how can that be explained,  unless I've missed something?

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 22.09.16 20:55

@MayMuse wrote:

Same DNA on two separate items of clothing, pants AND leggings, so how can that be explained,  unless I've missed something?
Have you watched the CBS documentary?

Please do.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 22.09.16 21:03

I don't think the blow to the head killed her, although it probably would have eventually been fatal without immediate attention

The cord did it.

The autopsy gave symptoms of strangulation that would only appear if the heart was still active.

Neither the blow nor the cord were intended to kill.

I think Burke thought she was already dead when he tried to move her with the cord and handle, but if finished her off.

If anyone else can think of another rational reason for that handle I'd like to hear it.

It makes no sense as part of a garroting device, staged or not.

It was for traction and only of use to someone who couldn't lift her.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by MayMuse on 22.09.16 21:48

J
@BlueBag wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:

Same DNA on two separate items of clothing, pants AND leggings, so how can that be explained,  unless I've missed something?
Have you watched the CBS documentary?

Please do.
YesI uploaded and shared it to this forum!
However I do not agree with everything that CBS purported.
I have also read Kolar,s book and the DNA blurb I find very confusing, the degradation and markers and the placement.  
The thing is there is DNA everywhere, I think it's called "trace" ( stand to be corrected) So even if some believe that the DNA may have been from persons unknown who had no link to the crime, therefore the Ramsey's should have not been exonerated,  it still does not link the Ramsey's.  I have never thought that the DNA would solve this crime and do think that something bigger is being covered up. IMO

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by Hobs on 22.09.16 23:31

It is possible that DNA remained on the underwear from the manufacturer or, if they were not part of a pack any number of people who handled it from packing to delivery, the shop staff and sundry customers.

The note was written by patsy as shown by the writing style and also language used as well as containing knowledge which could only come from someone close to john.

Given burke's age would he have faced charges for murder?
Would he have faced charges for sexual assault especially given her bedwetting and frequent UTI's (often indicative of chronic sexual abuse)

What has got my attention is the fact he was obsessed with his faeces, spreading it around.
This can also be an indicator of ongoing sexual abuse which, given what was going on in the family with JonBenet's issues and the sexualisation of her in pageants would not be a surprise.

The parents were indicted for murder etc by a grand jury, the then prosecutor refused to sign it off fearing he would have to face expensive high powered lawyers and possibly losing , which no prosecutor wants on their CV.

It is worth noting that after patsy died, john married a Vegas showgirl costume designer, i see a pattern

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by April28th on 23.09.16 0:10

The CBS documentary was extremely thorough - the initial article linked in the OP does it no justice.

I appreciated the level of expert input and forensic analysis. I was surprised to learn that touch dna can exist from literally the factory stage - not just when the underwear is first opened/worn. I had assumed they'd be technically sterile before that.

The flashlight experiments and input from Werner Spitz were revealing. I also hadn't seen the cobweb in the window before - that was revealing.

Obviously there were some lines which they didn't spend too long on - for instance the scat - but that may have just been down to the source, so I can't out of hand say I don't believe it.

I can't say I am 100% convinced by this, but I feel a lot more open to the theory now. Even down to Burke's age being the possible reason the Grand Jury's opinion was not followed (as no conviction could be brought).

Re the garrote/stick - I had assumed the stick was for tightening. Turning the stick instead of using physical force - like a vice. The knot on the garrotte seems too intricate for a child to me, it's one of the sticking points keeping me from completely accepting this.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 23.09.16 8:47

@MayMuse wrote:
The thing is there is DNA everywhere, I think it's called "trace" ( stand to be corrected) So even if some believe that the DNA may have been from persons unknown who had no link to the crime, therefore the Ramsey's should have not been exonerated,  it still does not link the Ramsey's.
But the point is it does not exonerate them.

The BPD were wrong to apologise and exonerate because they found some DNA.

That was politics.

John Ramsey has been talking of running for office as well.

He's a big influential man.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 23.09.16 8:55

@April28th wrote:Re the garrote/stick - I had assumed the stick was for tightening. Turning the stick instead of using physical force - like a vice. The knot on the garrotte seems too intricate for a child to me, it's one of the sticking points keeping me from completely accepting this.
It makes no sense, it has a long lead.

Short garrotes have two handles - I've seen those, like cheese slicers.



I've never seen a garrote with a slip knot, one handle and a long lead - what's the point? Just pull the cord.

Even the forensic guy in the film said it was pointless.

I really think Burke was trying to drag her somewhere, I think she had abrasions on her shoulders.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by canada12 on 23.09.16 9:49

Just to play devil's advocate here for a moment, but what if it was a blow to her head that killed her, but not caused by an implement? I watched the last part of the CBS show and noticed the stairs that were shown in the house when they were recreating what they thought might have happened. If these stairs were an actual recreation of the stairs in the house, then they were very ultra modern, slabs of polished wood or stone. What if JonBenet fell down those stairs? She might have been pushed. She might have been chased and pushed. That might account for abrasions, and also a serious head injury.

Also one needs to ask - why was she wearing what she was wearing when she was found? A white t-shirt, white leggings and underpants. Would she normally have been sleeping in such an outfit? Because as I understand it, she was put to bed by Patsy. Would an abductor have got her out of bed and dressed her? I think her clothing needs to be explained. What would she normally have worn to bed? Is the story supposed to be that she was abducted from her bed by this stranger while the household was sleeping?

And one final point. It may be that Burke was only 9 years old and would not have been charged with murder if he had killed his sister, but did John and Patsy know the law? It may be that they felt they had to cover it up because they didn't know what would happen to Burke if it came out that he caused her death. Perhaps what might have come out in an investigation would have been very incriminating against them as parents. Perhaps an investigation might have uncovered some details about Burke that they didn't want made public. Or about JonBenet. I can think of a number of reasons why John and Patsy might want to make it look like a stranger abduction and killing, in spite of the fact that Burke might not have been prosecuted because of his age.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by Doug D on 23.09.16 11:13

BlueBag:
 
‘If anyone else can think of another rational reason for that handle I'd like to hear it.
 
It makes no sense as part of a garroting device, staged or not.’
 
I confess I’m not up to speed on the case, but I think the handle & loop would work well for a youngster who didn’t have the strength to pull the two ends of a ‘normal’ garotte, or maybe even the knowledge of how one was used. More of a 'hanging type device' or restraint that could easily have been picked up from children's TV, cartoons etc.
 
Push the stick through the loop and then a hand on the stick either side of the knot (and maybe a knee in the back or even standing, to brace) would do the trick to start with and maybe then a drag & attachment to a door or cupboard handle using the stick as the retainer, in a ‘hanging’ manner.
   
I don’t think it would have anything to do with twisting and tightening.

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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by BlueBag on 23.09.16 11:30

@Doug D wrote:BlueBag:
 
‘If anyone else can think of another rational reason for that handle I'd like to hear it.
 
It makes no sense as part of a garroting device, staged or not.’
 
I confess I’m not up to speed on the case, but I think the handle & loop would work well for a youngster who didn’t have the strength to pull the two ends of a ‘normal’ garotte, or maybe even the knowledge of how one was used. More of a 'hanging type device' or restraint that could easily have been picked up from children's TV, cartoons etc.
 
Push the stick through the loop and then a hand on the stick either side of the knot (and maybe a knee in the back or even standing, to brace) would do the trick to start with and maybe then a drag & attachment to a door or cupboard handle using the stick as the retainer, in a ‘hanging’ manner.
   
I don’t think it would have anything to do with twisting and tightening.
It was a slip knot.

And as the old forensic pathologist guy (who has been involved in 60,000 cases) said, it was unnecessary and useless "why do you need the stick".

@1.22.00


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Re: JonBenet Ramsey was killed by her older brother Burke

Post by tinkier on 23.09.16 13:36

@canada12 wrote:Just to play devil's advocate here for a moment, but what if it was a blow to her head that killed her, but not caused by an implement? I watched the last part of the CBS show and noticed the stairs that were shown in the house when they were recreating what they thought might have happened. If these stairs were an actual recreation of the stairs in the house, then they were very ultra modern, slabs of polished wood or stone. What if JonBenet fell down those stairs? She might have been pushed. She might have been chased and pushed. That might account for abrasions, and also a serious head injury.

Also one needs to ask - why was she wearing what she was wearing when she was found? A white t-shirt, white leggings and underpants. Would she normally have been sleeping in such an outfit? Because as I understand it, she was put to bed by Patsy. Would an abductor have got her out of bed and dressed her? I think her clothing needs to be explained. What would she normally have worn to bed? Is the story supposed to be that she was abducted from her bed by this stranger while the household was sleeping?

And one final point. It may be that Burke was only 9 years old and would not have been charged with murder if he had killed his sister, but did John and Patsy know the law? It may be that they felt they had to cover it up because they didn't know what would happen to Burke if it came out that he caused her death. Perhaps what might have come out in an investigation would have been very incriminating against them as parents. Perhaps an investigation might have uncovered some details about Burke that they didn't want made public. Or about JonBenet. I can think of a number of reasons why John and Patsy might want to make it look like a stranger abduction and killing, in spite of the fact that Burke might not have been prosecuted because of his age.
They came home from a party that evening, JB was asleep, her father put her to bed. The investigation team then thought that Patsy woke her up later to go to the bathroom to prevent her wetting the bed. The pathologist in the CBS documentary stated the shape of skull fracture was most definitely sustained by being hit over the head with the flashlight. This was also re-enacted using a boy of the same age/build as Burke, the result was exactly what the pathologist expected.

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