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Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Cherry on 14.08.10 16:38

Unfortunately I believe that the statistics show that in the majority of cases where a child is murdered the parents or parent or someone closely associated to them is responsibile, so while i am in no way saying of course that this means the parents were responsible in this case, I am mentioning it to show that it is not such a hard thing to believe that could happen because that is what the statistics show us happens on an all too frequent basis.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Cherry on 14.08.10 16:42

The doctor appears to be giving his opinion based on years of working with parents whose child has been lost as a result of a crime.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Kololi on 14.08.10 16:55

I don't doubt that Cherry. I am just not convinced that a parent would plan ahead the murder of their child. A reaction to something that results in the child dying is feasible but not how this Ludke guy describes what happened.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by kangdang on 14.08.10 17:06

@ufercoffy wrote:
@kangdang wrote:
@ufercoffy wrote:I posted above that astro from joanna morais site uploaded it. No idea how she got it.

Hmmm, yes I noticed that after I had made my post. The following question of course remains, how did Astro get that video?

Strange isn't it?

Almost as strange as astro, joanna and justagrannynow1 all turning against the MF around the same time whilst supporting the ever increasing lunatic Butler.

Indeed, most bizarre.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by kangdang on 14.08.10 17:10

@Judge Mental wrote:What people have to bear in mind when stating that The Madeleine Foundation may not be good for Amaral or that it can affect his chances of winning the case, is that TMF has the support of many people throughout Europe and worldwide. It is all very well to sit tutting and puffing at one's keyboard and going through the police files and theorising about what really happened to Madeleine, but leaving Amaral aside for one moment, whom else is actually putting their neck on the block and preparing documents to official bodies and putting their own signature on those documents?

Amaral has the unwaivering support of some of his ex-colleagues and many countrymen in Portugal. What use are those of us who tap away daily on our keyboards, to a man who needs to know there are bodies of people and official groups working in his interests to make people aware that he is fighting for freedom of speech and that he needs monetary support to fight what may end up being a very expensive court case and that he still needs the support of the world's public.

Does any single one of us believe for a moment that any of the Tapas 9 want it to be revealed in written English that the Leicester police deliberately withheld the Gaspars statements for more than FIVE MONTHS?

Do they want it revealed in written English that the British contingent of police were revealing information to the Tapas 9 and Mitchell? Would they want the world's public to know that their statements were not consistent with each others and that some were subject to change at every interview?

Keyboard warriors are only of use if we continue to make the public more aware of Amaral's plight and encourage people to donate and support him. Their reluctance or inability to donate is up to their own conscience or whether they can possibly afford to. For those who cannot afford to help moneywise, they can sign petitions or start new petitions or if they cannot be bothered to do that, they can simply show a tiny degree of support for TMF by keeping their personal grudges against Tony Bennett to themselves. If they think they can do better, why not suggest how they would do things better?

Should the TMF simply abandon Amaral and let him limp by with having a lot of well-wishers and 'friends' on the internet? Should we just forget that the UK Government, and Hogg in particular are trying to get the public to accept that Madeleine will be coming home one day, after we have seen the results of the sniffer dog investigations?

Nobody has ever been asked to join TMF for life and pledge their allegiance in blood. Nobody has been asked to agree with all its principles or manifesto.

Let us remember that England is a country which has been sat on the threshold of national security issues and potentially horrendous diplomatic rows and incidents simply because one small group of people could not tell the time of day and would not account for their whereabouts after a child was alleged to have been stolen from her bed by a swarthy-looking foreign person.

Amaral cannot ask the questions that TMF and Tony Bennett are asking, so who would like to take up Tony Bennett's job and make a better job of it?

One has known Tony Bennett for some considerable time and has seen him come up against great authority and always get results. Having heard from many people who have various angles on his work and personality, one has to say that there is not a scintilla of evidence to suggest that he is untrustworthy in any way. If there was one concrete story, we may be assured that it would be in the mainstream press and inserted into every blog at every opportunity on the internet.

It is a grave pity that relations have broken down for whatever reasons between site owners, bloggers and various groups of people, however the fact remains that there are only two opposing viewpoints. There are those who wish to find out what really happened to Madeleine and those who do not wish the Tapas 9 to ever have to answer to a court. One has consistently pledged one's allegiance to finding out what really happened to Madeleine, no matter what petty squabbling and derisory rubbish is written about TMF. If somebody had come up with better ideas in the past three years, one would have switched that allegiance.

One is now open to offers and prepared for the challenge of a quicker and better road to finding a solution than the one currently provided by TMF, and will happily start a new thread to display any flashes of inspiration or alternatives that any poster prints.

First class post Judge. clapping1

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by poppydog on 14.08.10 17:40

Hear Hear

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Judge Mental on 14.08.10 18:28



One has never doubted the solidarity of those who wish to see the general public exercising the right to access information and enjoy the freedoms of speech. However, one has been saddened to see disruptive influences jumping on lame stories and conjecture in order to conquer the internet fora by dividing those who wish to seek justice for a three years old child whose parents want us to believe in an abduction theory.

Not one scintilla of evidence exists to support theories of abduction or anything similar. Nor have any police figures, private detectives or any authorities been able to identify one element that suggests the remote possibility of abduction.

The police did not tell us that they thought there was a chance that Madeleine had been abducted, it was the parents who told us this at every given opportunity. Jane Tanner, one of their friends, has gone to great lengths to describe somebody whom she saw striding off with a child. One will not labour upon her ever increasing memory of the event which took place at the very point where Gerald McCann and Jeremy Wilkins were allegedly conversing about the McCann children being left unsupervised, but one must reiterate that a whole televison programme was made to soothe the police and public's suspicions about the whole scenario. One must state from one's personal point of view, this programme aroused even more suspicions than one had previously held. The abduction theory hinges on the parents say so and some statements that one of their friends told the police on several occasions. Nothing more than that.

Let as many of us as possible join together in finding the answers to a few simple questions, in order to defend the rights of a child who cannot speak for herself, and for a small number of people who are being persecuted and prevented from divulging information that is now in the public domain remembering that this was a joint British and Portuguese investigation.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 14.08.10 18:29

Excellent posts JM. I think you should create a new thread/topic for them so they doesn't get lost in this one.

You never know when CR might take a peek in here again and we wouldn't want them to miss them now would we?

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Judge Mental on 14.08.10 18:36

@Kololi wrote:I know that trying to put yourself in the McCanns' shoes is frowned upon by some but I simply cannot imagine having to turn to IVF to have a child only to plan her death whilst she is so young because she is a tadge boisterous, that is too whacky for me.

My second child drove me at times to destraction because he wouldn't sleep and generally cried for what felt like 24/7 but I didn't feel the need to plan his murder, enlisting his father to help with my evil deed.

What qualifications or credentials does this guy Ludke actually have that warrants him making such allegations with authority?

As for the video where Mr McCann makes his comment about not enjoying his holiday, I felt that he was being a bit of a macho twit and playing to the camera and to their friends watching at the time. I really wouldn't have thought, by saying he wasn't there to f.ing enjoy himself that he was giving off a hint that instead he was there to murder his daughter.

I know he isn't a likeable chap in the least but I just cannot see that him and Mrs McCann went off on holiday with a bunch of friends and the need to murder Madeleine planned as part of their holiday activities.

An accident and a cover up maybe but not downright planned coldblooded murder - sorry.




What an incredibly sensational post for the time of day, Kolioli.

One is not used to seeing the word 'murder' used in the context of this case, and one has to say one finds it quite shocking that the word should be used on here. One sincerely hopes that this is a measured and thoughtful post and not some mischievous testing of our posters. Please PM me if you think this is relevant to what we are trying to achieve here, because if one does not see a message in one's inbox, one will assume you have taken momentary leave of all that is sensible and are quietly reflecting upon what you have stated.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Kololi on 15.08.10 7:42

And pray tell, why I would have the slightest inclination to PM you?

It is really very simple.

I disagree with this Ludke chaps thoughts as stated in the original post, on what might have happened to Madeleine McCann. Some posters appear to think he may have a valid point and have said why - I disagree and have said why too.

Whilst disagreeing I maintain my respect for other posters and their views, meaning that I do not feel the need to belittle their opinions, call them names or write silly little messages to them about pming me.

As I have said in the thread in the other section, if you have a problem with me or with my continuing to not fall in line with you personally thoughtwise, then, please, put me on ignore. I promise you that I will not be offended and think it may help show you to be a better person than you are starting to look with your goading of me. I would happily solve this little problem that you appear to have with me by putting you on ignore but, unfortunately, it seems that I can't.

Take care

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Judge Mental on 15.08.10 16:01

@Kololi wrote:And pray tell, why I would have the slightest inclination to PM you?

It is really very simple.

I disagree with this Ludke chaps thoughts as stated in the original post, on what might have happened to Madeleine McCann. Some posters appear to think he may have a valid point and have said why - I disagree and have said why too.

Whilst disagreeing I maintain my respect for other posters and their views, meaning that I do not feel the need to belittle their opinions, call them names or write silly little messages to them about pming me.

As I have said in the thread in the other section, if you have a problem with me or with my continuing to not fall in line with you personally thoughtwise, then, please, put me on ignore. I promise you that I will not be offended and think it may help show you to be a better person than you are starting to look with your goading of me. I would happily solve this little problem that you appear to have with me by putting you on ignore but, unfortunately, it seems that I can't.

Take care

Why would one need the ignore button when there is a delete button much nearer to my fingertip?

Please continue disagreeing with the thoughts of mine and others as often as you like, but try not to do it just to be awkward lest one delete you so that you have to go through the rigmarole of finding another new name to rejoin us.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by aiyoyo on 15.08.10 16:42

Extract
Ludke: Yes, it is possible that they have planned the act for a long time, at least in must have been in their minds often and they must have spoken about it together. Otherwise they would now be contradicting each others.

This German (IIRC) criminal psychologist's view along that line is a tad too strong imo, especially when no one knows the basis she presumed that remark on.

Body language and Kate and Gerry Mccanns unfailing ability to maintain a consistent story between them two in that dire situation no doubt is all very well for Dr ChristianLudke to study and analyse, but on issue of premeditation or even motive, I too, feel her comment affirming the former is a tad inappropriate/tactless/premature..... I dont know the right adjective for it..but nonetheless felt it was too.....

Control freak parents who didnt see anything wrong with punishing their child by physical handling the child is not the same as saying they cold bloodedly got rid of a child just because the child is boisterous.

I have to agree here with Kololi, thought Kololi used of the word 'murder' may seem too stark.

I am thinking :
If they planned to kill her why go on holiday in group to do?
How did they expect to get away with it?
How did they know their friends were going to cooperate?
If its about sedation, wouldnt it be easier to plan that at home......

I prefer to think its accidental as premeditation involving bringing friends along is mad brazennes, and fearless of the law beyond belief.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Judge Mental on 15.08.10 17:15

Permission is granted to all those who would wish to agree with Kolioli, so long as there is not too much of it

@ aiyoyo

Like you, one thought the use of the word murder was quite stark or startling

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by ufercoffy on 15.08.10 17:17

@aiyoyo wrote:I am thinking :
If they planned to kill her why go on holiday in group to do?
How did they expect to get away with it?
How did they know their friends were going to cooperate?
If its about sedation, wouldnt it be easier to plan that at home......

I prefer to think its accidental as premeditation involving bringing friends along is mad brazennes, and fearless of the law beyond belief.

They have got away with it and their friends did cooperate and they are all fearless of the law.

So...why can't it have been planned?

Maybe sedation at home wouldn't have resulted in a Fund (which was set up remarkably quickly, along with people giving up their jobs).

Maybe Madeleine had been abused at home and was starting to talk about it.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Kololi on 15.08.10 18:02

Thank you Aiyoyo for saying it so well.

"I am thinking :
If they planned to kill her why go on holiday in group to do?

How did they expect to get away with it?
How did they know their friends were going to cooperate?
If its about sedation, wouldnt it be easier to plan that at home......

I prefer to think its accidental as premeditation involving bringing friends along is mad brazennes, and fearless of the law beyond belief."


I stand by my choice of the word "murder" though because to plan and carry out the killing of your child is surely murder. Premeditated murder possibly though I only managed a merit in criminal law so maybe the "judge" would be able to correct me if I am wrong.

Dress it up or dress it down - to state that Mr and Mrs McCann had planned the death of their child is a polite way of saying they planned to murder her and, at a risk of becoming a massive big bore, I don't believe that they or many parents at all could be that cold blooded.


As for that wobbley finger you have Mental perhaps you should be sure of what you accuse folk of before actually accusing them.

I originally joined Amber's site as Kololi but was banned from there for passing comment on what I felt was the shoddy way that Jill, I believe (GetemGoncalo) was treated, so joined here when Jill first created it. I tried to join as Kololi but ended up joining as Finally simply because I had problems getting the registration thing to work with Kololi and when, with advice from Jill it finally worked Finally seemed apt. Jill needed to shut it because of some nonsense and when she re-opened it, lo and behold, Kololi worked fine. No other names used or needed and if Jill asks me to leave I probably would just read bits and bobs of different forums without bothering to join any other so wouldn't need a new name.

Your secret sleuthing is totally wasted on me I am afraid as I am just a nobody on these forums other than Kololi who doesn't have numerous accounts here there and everywhere - I just don't agree with everything you think that I should and don't feel intimidated by your wobbley finger enough to pretend that I do.

Take care

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Cherry on 15.08.10 18:19

kololi unfortunately the sad fact is that some parents ARE that coldblooded, some parents DO plan the murder of their children, just as some parents abuse their children, some parents let their friends and family members abuse their children, some parents take money to let strangers abuse their children, that is sadly the world that we live in. That is not to say that has happened in this case (we don't know as yet) but it is not so unbelievable, when children go missing it more often than not involves one or other or both of the parents (that does not mean every case), the most disgusting and heinous crimes are commited against children by their own parents so it is not so unbelievable imo to dismiss out of hand. You may feel this has not happened in this case, that is your opinion, just as many others may feel this has not happened (equally some will feel this HAS happened in this case), but Police officers who work in child protection, people who work with victims of abuse,survivors of childhood abuse - will tell you it is not in any way unusual for parents to be perpetrators in crimes against children. Many of these crimes are preplanned.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Guest on 15.08.10 18:29

You only have to read the case of Susan Smith to see that it does happen. I am not saying in this case just that it does happen and this case always springs to mind

Susan Smith

Susan Leigh Vaughan Smith (born September 26, 1971) is an American woman sentenced to life in prison for murdering her children. Born in Union, South Carolina, and a former student of the University of South Carolina Union, she was convicted on July 22, 1995 of murdering her two sons, 3-year-old Michael Daniel Smith, born October 10, 1991, and 14-month-old Alexander Tyler Smith, born August 5, 1993.[2] The case gained worldwide attention shortly after it developed, due to Smith claiming that an African-American man stole her car and kidnapped her sons. Smith later claimed that she suffered from mental health issues that impaired her judgment.

According to the South Carolina Department of Corrections, Smith will be eligible for parole on November 4, 2024, after serving a minimum of thirty years. She is currently incarcerated at South Carolina's Leath Correctional Institution, near Greenwood.[3]



[edit] The case
Smith initially reported to police, on October 25, 1994, that she had been carjacked by a black man who drove away with her sons still in the car. Smith made tearless pleas on television for the rescue and return of her children. A Usenet chain letter circulated in the following days, asking Internet users to be on the lookout for the vehicle. However, nine days later, following an intensive, heavily publicized investigation and a nationwide search, Smith eventually confessed to letting her 1990 Mazda Protegé roll into nearby John D. Long Lake, drowning her children inside. (34°46′26″N 81°30′52″W / 34.77389°N 81.51444°W / 34.77389; -81.51444)

Many people across the United States and around the world, to whom she and her two "missing" sons had been the subject of an outpouring of sympathy, felt deeply betrayed. Their reaction to the betrayal was further aggravated by the fact that she had attempted to cast blame, falsely, upon a black man, making the case racially sensitive. Additionally, her alleged motive for the deaths — to dispose of her children so that she might have a relationship with a wealthy local man who had no interest in a "ready-made" family[4] — was met with widely held contempt and revulsion. There has been no answer from Susan Smith regarding her choice not to give her estranged husband David Smith custody of the children, instead of killing them.

It later emerged that investigators had been suspicious of Smith's story from the beginning and believed she had actually killed her own children. From the second day of the investigation the authorities suspected that Smith knew where the children were. It was their hope that the children were still alive. Lakes and ponds began being searched, even the lake in which the children were eventually found. The reason for not finding the children earlier is because the authorities only thought the car could have traveled out about thirty feet and that was the extent of the search. Later they found out that the car was about sixty feet out; this was because of the speed the car had when it entered the lake and it drifted out on top of the water for about thirty feet. She'd taken a polygraph along with David two days after the boys disappeared. The results were inconclusive, but showed that she was lying when she said she didn't know where the boys were. She was polygraphed during every subsequent interview with investigators, and failed that question each time. There were also no other cars near the intersection where Smith said the carjacking had occurred. A big break in the case had to do with Smith's story on where she was carjacked. The particular red light at which she said she stopped is only triggered when a car is coming from the opposite direction. According to her, there were no other cars around so there would be no reason for her to stop at this intersection.

It was disclosed in her trial that Smith was molested in her teens by her stepfather Beverly Russell, an outwardly righteous pillar of the community, and a member of the South Carolina Republican party executive committee. Russell admitted that he molested Smith when she was a teenager and had consensual sex with her as an adult. Her biological father committed suicide when she was young and she very rarely had a stable home life.[5]

While she has been in prison, two guards have been punished for having sex with Smith[6], and in 2003 she placed a personal ad at WriteAPrisoner.com which has since been retracted.[7]


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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Cherry on 15.08.10 18:37

Thank you Aiyoyo for saying it so well.

"I am thinking :
If they planned to kill her why go on holiday in group to do?

How did they expect to get away with it?
How did they know their friends were going to cooperate?
If its about sedation, wouldnt it be easier to plan that at home......

I prefer to think its accidental as premeditation involving bringing friends along is mad brazennes, and fearless of the law beyond belief."


If the friends were all involved in activities which some have alleged they were involved in, then of course they knew they could rely on the silence of their friends. If others (VIPS, politicians, celebrities, Company senior personnel etc.,) were involved in such activities they knew they would be protected, they said they were calling in favours, they may have had access to information on others which would be damaging to them, therefore they had to be protected at all costs in order that other individuals protected themselves. Add to that the doctrine of the Freemasons to protect their brothers and the alleged links between Gerry and the government Blair/Brown etc., I dont think they had any worry about being protected.

also lets not forget the money making schemes, alleged fraudulent fund, speed of websites been set up (dated the year before the event happened), the speed of the Sky news reports and other papers, the speed of a company being set up, the access (when on holiday) to all their contacts and phone numbers enabling them to ring around so quickly, the associates rushing to help them, Philip Green, Richard Branson and co.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Rainbow on 15.08.10 18:39

Why would they have wanted to get rid of her though?

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Cherry on 15.08.10 18:42

could have been a number of reasons, Kate's diary allegedly showed she was struggling to cope with Madeleine, Madeleine may have had some illness or disability which has not as yet come out into the open, Madeleine may have been abused and coming to the age where she was beginning to talk or show obvious signs of distress which could be picked up on by others, she could have been seen as a way of making money if there were financial problems, some believe she could have been used in a sacrifice (relating to abuse), there could be many many reasons. imo

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Kololi on 15.08.10 18:56

Hi Cherry

I respect everything that you say because I have the feeling from reading posts of yours previously that you speak with knowledge due to your work. I certainly wouldn't wish to simply disagree with you because I do believe that you speak with some authority on this subject.

Maybe it is my sometimes badly placed faith in mankind, but I really do have trouble believing that this Ludke fella can make the statements that he did, as an expert, without meeting the McCanns and knowing them somewhat. If we were privvy to how many parents in the world there are, I am guessing, or rather hoping that those that would do such "planned" dreadful and evil things to their own children would be a very small minority in the great scheme of things. And of course, I now need to swiftly say that I am not belittling bad experiences that children have experienced simply because they might be in the minority. Of course, just one child experiencing something terrible is one child too many.

Aiyoyo has made all the statements that I found myself thinking when reading this Ludke's interview which, in my opinion, makes me think he is likely to be far off the mark and maybe even a bit of a sensationalist looking for publicity. I just cannot believe that these people would go to such lengths to get rid of a child that they had to go through IVF to get with the lifestyle that they appeared to have. Easier, surely, to let her have some sort of "accident" at home if that was truly their intention.

Looks like one where we have to agree to disagree and with the utmost respect to you, I do hope that if we ever find out what happened to this young child, that you are wrong as that outcome is, in my opinion, the worse possible scenario of all above all others.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Judge Mental on 15.08.10 18:58

@Rainbow wrote:Why would they have wanted to get rid of her though?

@ Rainbow

When asking such a leading question, please would you address it specifically to those people whom you think may have the direct answer to this, and ask them to PM you directly with their answers. One feels one has to ask that you to do this lest we end up in the realms of bizarre concepts and theoretical nonsense.

The idea of an 'abduction' is quite bizarre enough in this case, thank you very much.

The last thing one needs is to see more of this sort of rubbish. It may suit the likes of Donal McIntyre and Edgar, but one is still in possession of a working brain and would not wish it to be haddled by any conjecture and speculation that the answers to your question may give rise to.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Judge Mental on 15.08.10 19:07

@Cherry wrote:could have been a number of reasons, Kate's diary allegedly showed she was struggling to cope with Madeleine, Madeleine may have had some illness or disability which has not as yet come out into the open, Madeleine may have been abused and coming to the age where she was beginning to talk or show obvious signs of distress which could be picked up on by others, she could have been seen as a way of making money if there were financial problems, some believe she could have been used in a sacrifice (relating to abuse), there could be many many reasons. imo

One is still most concerned that this is one of the only cases of a disappearing child where the medical records of the whole family have not been produced.

One must make mention that the police should be in receipt of the bank statements of all the Tapas 9 members along with their telephone records. It is all very well to see they have had multiple mortgages and an abundance of credit cards, but the police seriously need to know about money movements during the five years period prior to May 2007. There are some peculiarities that need scrutinising.

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Re: Dr Christian Ludke interview revisited - November 2007

Post by Rainbow on 15.08.10 19:20

Thank you Cherry,like kololi I just cannot see it myself and IF they did plan it why do it on holiday? Too many variables and uncontrollable outside forces could have quite easily scuppered the plan imo.

Rainbow

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