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If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by roy rovers on 03.05.16 23:27

Is Operation Grange the Warren Commission of the Madeleine McCann case? The Warren Commission was set up by the US Government to investigate the assassination of JFK but its methodology and conclusions have been criticised since it reported and it has been accused of being a cover up. It gave the establishment the finding it required - that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone and was not part of a wider conspiracy (the 'lone nut' theory).
IMO Operation Grange is not going to get to the truth and is a bit of a diversion. The truth will come out as more and more information enters the public domain - Goncalo Amaral, Richard Hall etc.. The genie is squeezing out of the bottle.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Mirage on 03.05.16 23:51

I guess OG have a choice. Either they do it the hard way or... well, the less hard way. Either way, they've dug themselves into a massive hole that will require a block and tackle to get them out. It is clear they have become a total laughing stock right round the world and so they are going to have to do something. This three burglars lark. Where do they think they are going with that one? The PJ aren't wearing this. No one is. It is ludicrous. Straight out of the S&S book of how to make an utter plonker of yourself with unraveling-bandages-on-feet-man (camera pans to hapless suspect's feet). You really have to pinch yourself don't you? This stuff sends out the wrong message from Blighty altogether, as if these people have all escaped from a secure unit.

I think Redwood's team never got their hands on the forensic stuff they hoped to in PT. I remember the entourage went to the centre of excellence in forensic testing in Coimbra and by the look on Redwood's face when he came out, he didn't get near anywhere near the precious samples. They probably kept him behind a viewing screen if they had any sense. Ha ha. The Portuguese weren't going to fall for that FSS malarkey a second time.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Tony Bennett on 04.05.16 0:04

@Richard IV wrote:Who decided on the wording of the remit?  Anyone know.
Yes - Detective Chief Superintendent Hamish Campbell - answer given by way of a response to a Freedom of Information request, a few years back.

Of course, above him, who needed to approve his remit, were:

...his bosses at the Met

...the Home Secretary

...the Prime Minister

...the Prime Minister's riding companion, Rebekah Brooks 

...and her boss, Rupert Murdoch

"We're all in this together'

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by MayMuse on 04.05.16 0:38

Mmmm the "river" does run deep!?

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by MaryB on 04.05.16 0:59

If they try and put the blame on some hapless pock marked burglar lurking in the stairwell they will be a laughing stock.  Taken by person or persons unknown might be a bit better but it's still a fudge.  And the world knows it.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by aquila on 04.05.16 1:31

The enormous spin on this is that somehow the British public have been given their voice by the media to say 'no more taxpayers' money'.

It's perfect.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by whodunit on 04.05.16 2:54

@roy rovers wrote:Is Operation Grange the Warren Commission of the Madeleine McCann case? The Warren Commission was set up by the US Government to investigate the assassination of JFK but its methodology and conclusions have been criticised since it reported and it has been accused of being a cover up. It gave the establishment the finding it required - that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone and was not part of a wider conspiracy (the 'lone nut' theory).
IMO Operation Grange is not going to get to the truth and is a bit of a diversion. The truth will come out as more and more information enters the public domain - Goncalo Amaral, Richard Hall etc.. The genie is squeezing out of the bottle.

For lack of a better word, the 'remit' of the Warren Commission was skewed from the start, just like OG. Their mission was not to find out "who killed JFK" but to ask "Why did Lee Harvey Oswald kill President Kennedy?"

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by whodunit on 04.05.16 3:09

@Pat Brown--"So, since they ASKED for this review; they put their trust in the outcome. If there wasn't some political collusion going on when the McCanns asked for this Scotland Yard review, if nothing has changed politically to overturn a remit, if they went in without such a remit and Scotland Yard is completely following the evidence, I will say right here, I have been wrong about the McCanns and the evidence of the dogs must be undependable and all their weird behaviors are just odd behaviors of two very ununusual people, not two guilty people. The McCanns must then be innocent."




Lord have mercy, but Ms. Brown is the master of the false dichotomy. There is another alternative: How about the McCanns are the beneficiaries of a political collusion that began way above their pay grade? Except Ms. Brown can't go there because then she'd have to ask other, far more uncomfortable questions, the likely answers to which she seems to believe do not exist.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by BlueBag on 04.05.16 7:00

I think Pat Brown doesn't actually believe what she said is the case.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Tony Bennett on 04.05.16 7:58

@whodunit wrote:@Pat Brown--"So, since they ASKED for this review; they put their trust in the outcome. If there wasn't some political collusion going on when the McCanns asked for this Scotland Yard review, if nothing has changed politically to overturn a remit, if they went in without such a remit and Scotland Yard is completely following the evidence, I will say right here, I have been wrong about the McCanns and the evidence of the dogs must be undependable and all their weird behaviors are just odd behaviors of two very ununusual people, not two guilty people. The McCanns must then be innocent."



Lord have mercy, but Ms. Brown is the master of the false dichotomy. There is another alternative: How about the McCanns are the beneficiaries of a political collusion that began way above their pay grade? Except Ms. Brown can't go there because then she'd have to ask other, far more uncomfortable questions, the likely answers to which she seems to believe do not exist.
You may argue with the way Pat has put her two alternatives, but this is the core of her argumemt, snipped from Pat's article, above:

"If there wasn't some political collusion going on when the McCanns asked for this Scotland Yard review, the McCanns must then be innocent".


The corollary of that proposition is this:

"If there was some political collusion going on when the McCanns asked for this Scotland Yard review, the McCanns must then be guilty".

That's a simple argument with which many people agree.

Pat is actually putting the case that there IS 'political collusion'

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by ChippyM on 04.05.16 8:01

@MaryB wrote:If they try and put the blame on some hapless pock marked burglar lurking in the stairwell they will be a laughing stock.  Taken by person or persons unknown might be a bit better but it's still a fudge.  And the world knows it.

Or they just say it's 'unsolvable', all the leads ran cold and the message is that even the finest police force in the world can't solve this particular case. You might have some members of the public riled but then you just have some sort of enquiry that drags on and on......all the time certain people will keep spinning stories about gypsies and burglars to keep the public guessing.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by BlueBag on 04.05.16 8:22

@Tony Bennett wrote:


Pat is actually putting the case that there IS 'political collusion'
Of course she is.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Mirage on 04.05.16 8:43

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@whodunit wrote:@Pat Brown--"[size=37]So, since they ASKED for this review; they put their trust in the outcome. If there wasn't some political collusion going on when the McCanns asked for this Scotland Yard review, if nothing has changed politically to overturn a remit, if they went in without such a remit and Scotland Yard is completely following the evidence, I will say right here, I have been wrong about the McCanns and the evidence of the dogs must be undependable and all their weird behaviors are just odd behaviors of two very ununusual people, not two guilty people. The McCanns must then be innocent."[/size]



[size=37]Lord have mercy, but Ms. Brown is the master of the false dichotomy. There is another alternative: How about the McCanns are the beneficiaries of a political collusion that began way above their pay grade? Except Ms. Brown can't go there because then she'd have to ask other, far more uncomfortable questions, the likely answers to which she seems to believe do not exist.
[/size]
You may argue with the way Pat has put her two alternatives, but this is the core of her argumemt, snipped from Pat's article, above:

"If there wasn't some political collusion going on when the McCanns asked for this Scotland Yard review, the McCanns must then be innocent".


The corollary of that proposition is this:

"If there was some political collusion going on when the McCanns asked for this Scotland Yard review, the McCanns must then be guilty".

That's a simple argument with which many people agree.

Pat is actually putting the case that there IS 'political collusion'
Technically this is the corollary, Tony. But at this stage why hide the kernel of what she really means behind sophistry. Previously, she has prided herself on plain speaking, in tv interviews particularly. A no punches pulled lady. 

She knows fine well the effect her choice of words will have.  The juxtaposition of McCanns and innocent is an example. She doesn't say innocent of what incidentally. Right at the outset she warns of disappointment ahead and the attendant anger at her summation.. Unless I had direct evidence to the contrary, I might be tempted to think this was a softening up process.. The whole tone reeks of rubbing our noses in a remit that , alas, we are stuck with, and we will just have to follow her massive experience of disappointments in cold cases and suck it up. Sorry lady,  it's  gone too far for the British stomach.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 04.05.16 9:34

I think it is important to separate the investigation from the political will behind it.

Too much emphasis is put on the OG remit of seemingly 'abduction only'. Yes, it is publicly understood as an abduction, but it is an IMPOSSIBILITY that OG do not genuinely suspect the TM's. To suggest that a vast team of murder squad detectives, with all their experience, have been genuinely chasing pimplemen seems unfair and quite disrespectful.

OG was commissioned to find answers and I believe it has a pretty good idea of what happened, but that is a totally different thing to what the politicians choose do with that information. It seemed quite apparent from the BHH interview last week that he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. BHH emphasised that OG was requested by the government, and it seems they will now have to deal the consequences of their findings, however unpalatable.

Post GA ruling, DC and the politicians know that the genie is out of the bottle, and its only going to get worse. The truth WILL come out at some point. If the politicians decide to shelve the findings of OG, then SY and the government face huge criticism and Operation Grange should be renamed Operation Whistleblower. Too many people are in the know, and Hillsborough has changed a lot.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by BlueBag on 04.05.16 9:36

I don't know how anyone can read what Pat Brown said and think she's changed her mind.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Mirage on 04.05.16 10:16

As this entire argument pivots on the remit. Does anyone know if an identifiable offence has been committed by the body politic in imposing it? 

I ask because Judge Tugendhat clearly thought it a pertinent question for the McCann lawyer to cough up an answer to in the witness box.
She was forced to admit that she was proceeding only on the word of her clients that it was an abduction.

With regard to the police side of the equation, why couldn't they simply refuse loaded terms?

These to me are the fundamental questions that need to be addressed.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by dottyaussie on 04.05.16 10:46

This case is not only political its also diplomatic. Its not a case between local US police forces or even US State police forces. It is the equivalent of a case between the US and say Brazil. So how many cases of this magnitude has she worked on ?

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Tony Bennett on 04.05.16 11:33

@Mirage wrote:As this entire argument pivots on the remit, does anyone know if an identifiable offence has been committed by the body politic in imposing it? 

I ask because Judge Tugendhat clearly thought it a pertinent question for the McCann lawyer to cough up an answer to in the witness box.
She was forced to admit that she was proceeding only on the word of her clients that it was an abduction.

With regard to the police side of the equation, why couldn't they simply refuse loaded terms?

These to me are the fundamental questions that need to be addressed.
Agreed.

Everything was set in stone on 12 May 2011 when David Cameron's spokesman said, and I quote:

"The purpose of the review is to help the [McCann] family".

Normally, the purpose of a cold case review, which is how this began, would be: "To pursue all available lines of enquiry to establish how Madeleine disappeared and who was responsible".

Instead, with the Prime Minister's spokesman stating on the record that the purpose of the review was to 'help the family', he effectively instructed the Met Police to:

"Ignore any lines of evidence which suggest that Madeleine might have died in Apartment G5A, ignore any lines of evidence that the parents might have hidden or conspired to hide her body, ignore claims that she might have wandered off, in fact you must start from the FACT of the abduction and if possible find out who abducted her, given that the Portuguese Police have over 4 years miserably failed to do so".

If Sir Paul Stephenson, then the Met Police Commissioner, had had a bone of integrity in his body, he wouldn't have touched such a remit with a thirty-foot bargepole.

Same goes for a succession of pliant puppets like DCS Hamish Campbell, DCI Andy Redwood and DCI Nicola Wall, whose only possible defence could be: 'I was only obeying orders'

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Re;If the Scotland Yard Remit is followed?

Post by willowthewisp on 04.05.16 11:57

A bit like the hit from Ac/DC,"Dirty deeds not done dirt cheap"?
What is it that the successive UK Governments are afraid to reveal to the public over the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Verdi on 04.05.16 12:02

@ChippyM wrote:
@MaryB wrote:If they try and put the blame on some hapless pock marked burglar lurking in the stairwell they will be a laughing stock.  Taken by person or persons unknown might be a bit better but it's still a fudge.  And the world knows it.

Or they just say it's 'unsolvable', all the leads ran cold and the message is that even the finest police force in the world can't solve this particular case. You might have some members of the public riled but then you just have some sort of enquiry that drags on and on......all the time certain people will keep spinning stories about gypsies and burglars to keep the public guessing.
Amen!  That's been on the cards since day one in my opinion.  Since when did the UK government and/or it's minions give a fig about public opinion - outside of the polling booth?

Last I saw, different bodies are still digging away trying to uncover the truth about the death of Princess Dianna, Dr. David Kelly and more.  People can twitter ( big grin ) away for eternity but if the lid is on that's where it stays - hermetically sealed away from prying eyes.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Verdi on 04.05.16 12:07

I don't know why so much emphasis is placed on Pat Brown's opinion of this case, because that's all it is - opinion.  She doesn't know anymore than the rest of us, probably less than many so why is her opinion considered to be so important?  You may as well discuss every minute detail of Textusa's weekly monologues, or the spasmodic contradictory ramblings of she who shall remain nameless.

The race is on to see who can claim overall responsibility for being behind the hoped for exposé of Operation Grange's raison d'etre and why they have been authorised to expend inordinate sum of money under the pretext of reviewing/re-investigating the case of Madeleine McCann.

Sorry mates, you're too late - Mr. Tony Bennett got in there first despite your attempts to ridicule and belittle him!

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Verdi on 04.05.16 12:11

@willowthewisp wrote:A bit like the hit from Ac/DC,"Dirty deeds not done dirt cheap"?
What is it that the successive UK Governments are afraid to reveal to the public over the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?
'Money for nothing - that's the way to do it...'

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Richard IV on 04.05.16 13:06

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Richard IV wrote:Who decided on the wording of the remit?  Anyone know.
Yes - Detective Chief Superintendent Hamish Campbell - answer given by way of a response to a Freedom of Information request, a few years back.

Of course, above him, who needed to approve his remit, were:

...his bosses at the Met

...the Home Secretary

...the Prime Minister

...the Prime Minister's riding companion, Rebekah Brooks 

...and her boss, Rupert Murdoch

"We're all in this together'

Thanks Tony.  
Blimey. All those people ...... basing their action on what the McCanns told them. wow  Amazing. Can`t be that simple surely.

Not so sure Theresa May or Cameron wanted to be part of the gang initially; Theresa gave the McCanns short shrift.

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Tony Bennett on 04.05.16 13:28

@Richard IV wrote:
Theresa gave the McCanns short shrift.
Hmmn, Theresa is a powerful woman.

As Home Secretary, it was in her gift to refuse a Review, which she did for the first year of her tenure as Home Secretary.

Kate McCann angrily blasted her refusal to give way.

But then an evil and more powerful woman came into view: Jezebel Rebekah

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Re: If the Scotland Yard Review is Legitimate, Then the McCanns are Likely Innocent

Post by Joss on 04.05.16 13:38

@Verdi wrote:
@willowthewisp wrote:A bit like the hit from Ac/DC,"Dirty deeds not done dirt cheap"?
What is it that the successive UK Governments are afraid to reveal to the public over the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?
'Money for nothing - that's the way to do it...'
Dire Straits, big grin

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