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Post by whodunit 02.05.16 16:58

Roidininki wrote:
Claire25 wrote:
Realist wrote:
Claire25 wrote:


A history of abuse or sedation?
Is there any tangible evidence of this, ie social enquiry reports etc?
I have no idea, you obviously know more than me? I'm not aware that something like that has been ruled out.  

It is obvious something needed to be hidden, if it's not the cause of death, presumably something else that would be flagged up during the process that would need to be kept hidden instead.  Likely something that would mean their 7 friends would help no matter what too.

You obviously don't think that to be the case but I came to start following this case a few years ago on Hide's FB group and that was often a theory discussed and I personally find it very plausible.
If there had been a history of abuse don't you think there would have been evidence picked up by people in the UK who had charge of her ?

Nobody has heard a word from those people, not nannies, not teachers, not neighbors, nobody. They are effectively gagged. Makes you wonder why...
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Post by Claire25 02.05.16 17:01

Roidininki wrote:
Claire25 wrote:
Realist wrote:
Claire25 wrote:


A history of abuse or sedation?
Is there any tangible evidence of this, ie social enquiry reports etc?
I have no idea, you obviously know more than me? I'm not aware that something like that has been ruled out.  

It is obvious something needed to be hidden, if it's not the cause of death, presumably something else that would be flagged up during the process that would need to be kept hidden instead.  Likely something that would mean their 7 friends would help no matter what too.

You obviously don't think that to be the case but I came to start following this case a few years ago on Hide's FB group and that was often a theory discussed and I personally find it very plausible.
If there had been a history of abuse don't you think there would have been evidence picked up by people in the UK who had charge of her ?
What sort of evidence?
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Post by Roidininki 02.05.16 17:19

From witnessing the child 's behaviour . An abused child presents all manner of symptoms . Nowhere in any of the photos can I see an abused child .She is always described as happy .
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Post by aiyoyo 02.05.16 17:21

Mirage wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
Mirage wrote:@ HKP I want to make this perfectly clear to you: I do not have a view on the Smith statements. There are too many variables involved. I just let them sit there and know that they will find their rightful place in the narrative eventually.

My interest is in observing human behaviour. And the degree to which KH used her child for her own interests - thereby involving him in a provable lie -  is instructive as to how far some desperate people will sometimes go.

 You seemed to have drawn an arbitrary line beyond which you thought a parent would not go . I am merely demonstrating that your theory does not always hold in every case.

Mirage, I see where you are coming from. The vagaries of human behavior.
But your example isn't comparing like for like.
One is adult asking a child to lie  vs One is adult using her children names to lie.
There is a world of difference in that.

aiyoyo. I was never comparing like for like. That is what you have decided I was doing. I was challenging the assumption by HKF that a parent would never involve a child in a lie. I gave the example of KH as a response.

For the purposes of this present discussion ONLY, I disagree with your view that there is a world of difference between the two examples you cite. In both examples the adults concerned would have equally abused the same authority vested in them as parents, by removing the child's ownership of his or her truth. If you can see "a world of difference" in the MO that achieves a similar outcome for the adult in either example, then you are entitled to your own moral construct. I, on the other hand, could never subscribe to one of these examples being a greater offence, purely because the fundamental rights of the child are breached in both instances with no recourse to justice for either child until attaining the age of majority - and maybe not even then.

It's not a moral construct of mine (as you put it).

In one case we are talking a child complicit by adult (IF her deposition to Police isn't of her own accord) in an unlawful act of perverting the course of justice, putting the child at risk of perjury.  
Whereas in the other case, the adult was doing the lying. The children (twins) were never used to give direct statements to law enforcers.

Subjecting the child to perjury vs not subjecting the children to perjury.  
If you can't see the difference in it....I rest my case.
The fundamental rights of the children breached by adults (no doubt)  but in very contrasting ways.

Should we agree to disagree?
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Post by Lands_end 02.05.16 17:23

MRNOODLES wrote:
Lands_end wrote:
Realist wrote:The reason one can discount the sedative/accident theory is because it would be a far easier scenario to explain than the high risk strategy of disposing of her body and concocting a kidnapping story. The latter is an act born out of desperation where there is no other alternative available. The very element of 'accident' implies that it would be difficult to prosecute and easy to cast doubt upon in the event of a prosecution.

 The fact that Kate McCann had familiarised herself with the surrounding terrain on her daily jogging jaunts and Gerry McCann's brobdingnagian sports bag appearing to have gone missing bears far more relevance to this case than sedatives which may or may not have been present. In fact there is no evidence whatsoever to infer that the McCanns were sedating any of their children, particularly in the vein that the  remaining two were never tested for drug samples.
The fact is several Doctors do actually sedate their children with prescription drugs. Appalling as it is but true. The lack of planning by ripping off a child's book cover to record information and the fact that the other 2 children were clearly sedated along with the crime scene being altered clearly suggests IMHO that this was a rush job. Think seriously, would 2 babies stay firmly asleep in travel cots between 7pm and 7am despite being moved to a different apartment half way through the night along with the hysterical noise of GM's praying arab act? Would not the Tannerman revelation have been decided upon if this was indeed a planned action? We could always go ultra speculative and say that Madeleine disturbed a swinging couple pos JT and GM and the evil Bastrad thumped her for daring to disturb them. I don't suppose we will ever know the truth like as in the Soham Ian Huntley case unless someone wants to tell all on a deathbed.

But how do any of us know for certain. The Mccs didn't dose their kids in everyday life normally to make their lives easier?  I'm not saying they did, I'm just throwing it out for debate.
Sedatives are normally quick acting drugs, they also generally require replenishment during the daytime. This would have been noticed by  creche staff. Probably only used when they wanted to go out on the lash and didn't want to come back to change nappies because that is a profession which loves to DRINK. Sedate and get a sleep through.
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Post by Guest 02.05.16 17:25

Roidininki wrote:From witnessing the child 's behaviour . An abused child presents all manner of symptoms . Nowhere in any of the photos can I see an abused child .She is always described as happy .
What does an abused child look like?
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Post by whodunit 02.05.16 17:25

@Roidininki--"From witnessing the child 's behaviour . An abused child presents all manner of symptoms . Nowhere in any of the photos can I see an abused child .She is always described as happy ."

As I said above, we've heard nothing from the people who are usually interviewed in cases of abuse, such as nannies, teachers, and neighbors. We've only heard from the Tapas, some of whom barely knew her, and from the McCanns and Healy's. [many of whose comments were bizarrely derogatory towards the child]

As for photos, look at this one and tell me which of the children were abused:

"Fresh agony for the McCanns" - Page 10 3bd777122cad163744eadc521d0c50a1

They were, you know. All of them. Ranging from physical and psychological abuse of the boys to sexual abuse of the girls, with neglect and malnourishment of all of them.

http://www.amazon.com/True-North-Shocking-Truth-about/dp/0615416373
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Post by Claire25 02.05.16 17:26

Roidininki wrote:
Claire25 wrote:
Roidininki wrote:
Claire25 wrote:
Realist wrote:
Claire25 wrote:


A history of abuse or sedation?
Is there any tangible evidence of this, ie social enquiry reports etc?
I have no idea, you obviously know more than me? I'm not aware that something like that has been ruled out.  

It is obvious something needed to be hidden, if it's not the cause of death, presumably something else that would be flagged up during the process that would need to be kept hidden instead.  Likely something that would mean their 7 friends would help no matter what too.

You obviously don't think that to be the case but I came to start following this case a few years ago on Hide's FB group and that was often a theory discussed and I personally find it very plausible.
If there had been a history of abuse don't you think there would have been evidence picked up by people in the UK who had charge of her ?
What sort of evidence?
From witnessing the child 's behaviour . An abused child presents all manner of symptoms . Nowhere in any of the photos can I see an abused child .She is always described as happy .
I haven't witnessed her behaviour though? And the only photos I've seen are the ones that TM put out to the world.  And I would never conclude that a child may or may not be suffering just because of one snapshot in time.  I don't take pics of my kids when they look miserable, but they often do.  

I don't know for sure what happened but I'm certainly not ruling out an accident like you are because how could you possibly know that?
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Post by Roidininki 02.05.16 17:46

Are you deliberately ignoring my post where I described how a violent action, that is getting  hold of a child by the neck and shaking her, possibly leading to her death ? That amounts to more than an accident and would give rise to thoughts of how to get rid of that damning evidence imo. 
There are those in the UK , her grandparents and other relatives and friends for instance who will have witnessed her behavior ? 
As for the photos a plenty  which you dismiss as one snapshot in time are you suggesting the child was deliberately told to look happy?
Your last sentence is completely wrong about me ruling out an accident and to pass the ball back to you, how could you possibly know there was ?I on the other hand am going for something along the lines I suggested earlier pointing to a single act of violence  .Just my opinion of course but which I am not forcing you to think about . 
.
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Post by Guest 02.05.16 17:59

MOD NOTE:

Posters, if you are immediately responding to a post would you click "Post Reply" (bottom left).  Then we don't have posts unnecessarily repeated.  It also enables easier reading.

If you are replying to a post upthread then click "Quote" (top right).

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Post by Realist 02.05.16 18:05

There may well be a school of thought which would subscribe to the fact that disposing of a body and concocting a spurious abduction story would rule out any possibility of an accident. 

I can think of numerous disadvantages, but I  can't think of one solitary advantage to be gained by turning an accident into a potential murder enquiry. It would be unprecedented, why, even yer average Broadmoor candidate would have second thoughts about  that one.
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Post by Claire25 02.05.16 18:07

If it was a simply violent act though, I just cannot believe that the other Tapas members would have covered it up though.  Sorry, I do believe there's more to it.  Will have to agree to disagree.
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Post by mouse 02.05.16 18:10

As those above have said - you can't know a child is suffering from neglect from an image/photo. Some you might have an idea about - if they are under-nourished, wearing unclean clothes, hair is unkempt etc. But some parents who don't have mental or addiction problems will have ways of hiding their abuse, behind a happy family facade. They won't hit a child somewhere it will show, and sexual abuse won't show up in a smiling family photo. These people, are clever, they know just how to control and cover their tracks. Children too, who have been abused or violence used against them will not say anything for many reasons. If it is someone they love like a parent, they will still have good times with that parent, and will most likely cover for them too as they still love their abuser, and being young probably don't know their treatment is any different to other children's relationships with their parents. Stuff like this takes a long time to come to terms with - hence all the historical abuse cases coming out now.

I would say, however, that I don't necessarily think little Maddie was abused. One of the parents might have had a temper though. I still think there is an abuse connection, but I don't think it was the reasons for maddie's disappearance.

Would also add that I think an accident did probably happen, but was as a result of all or most of the parents leaving their kids on their own. And this disgraceful act of neglect carried out for most of the week - hi-lighted again by GA - was certainly not an accident. I think all the family concerned, being Doctors, would certainly want to cover this fact up. For it surely would have been the end to all their careers, and possibly the loss of their children, had they not done a fab PR job.  So I wonder who Called in the favour - and what they had up their sleeve to get so much help from those on high?.
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Post by Realist 02.05.16 18:30

Claire25 wrote:If it was a simply violent act though, I just cannot believe that the other Tapas members would have covered it up though.  Sorry, I do believe there's more to it.  Will have to agree to disagree.
What did the Tapas group cover up. There was a direct conflict of interests between the McCanns and their acquaintances. It was in the McCann's interest to show an element of neglect, but not their acquaintances, hence the contradictions in their statements.

You'll no doubt note that Oldfield wasn't prepared to state that he saw Madeleine in the apt. but willing to state the twins were there. That's because he didn't know what had happened to her, but more poignantly, didn't know when she had gone missing. He wasn't going to state she was there, only to discover at a subsequent stage that the police could prove she was missing earlier.

There's an awful lot of people who don't want to face the facts as to what really transpired, its simply too mundane, much more interesting to fantasise about paedophile rings, drugs, celebrities, substitutes, gov. secret agents, conspiracies involving half of Praia da Luz and the NHS etc. etc. etc. Not to mention of course, dear ole Pat Brown who thinks Gerry may have smuggled his daughter back to the UK in a suitcase. big grin
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Post by whodunit 02.05.16 18:30

Claire25 wrote:If it was a simply violent act though, I just cannot believe that the other Tapas members would have covered it up though.  Sorry, I do believe there's more to it.  Will have to agree to disagree.

Exactly.

 Without this context one can only have a partial or limited perspective. The McCanns were not isolated in their efforts to cover this up. The assistance they received must be taken into account when attempting to determine what possibly could have happened, and what probably did not happen. The help the McCs received in the cover up, not only from the Tapas but from the British diplomatic corps is unusual in the extreme. This help suggests something other than a simple accident, or even a murder involving only the McCs. The motive had to be very strong to induce the Tapas to assist in a cover up. Trying to help friends avoid responsibility for an accident OR a murder is simply not enough of a motive. Place yourself in the shoes of any one of the Tapas imagine one of your friends suddenly had to contend with a dead child. If they suggested a cover up to you, would you go along with it or would you immediately alert the police? What in God's green earth would be enough to induce you to go along with it? Think about it....
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Post by Roidininki 02.05.16 18:39

Claire25 wrote:If it was a simply violent act though, I just cannot believe that the other Tapas members would have covered it up though.  Sorry, I do believe there's more to it.  Will have to agree to disagree.
That's fine with me, what would life be if we all thought alike ?
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Post by whodunit 02.05.16 18:52

Roidininki wrote:
Claire25 wrote:If it was a simply violent act though, I just cannot believe that the other Tapas members would have covered it up though.  Sorry, I do believe there's more to it.  Will have to agree to disagree.
That's fine with me, what would life be if we all thought alike ?

It's not a matter of thinking alike or holding differing opinions. We all have our views on food and home decor and that's fine because nobody is ever wrong. But there are certain protocols to deductive reasoning, or logical deduction. Any conclusions one reaches while ignoring certain facts can be assumed to be inherently wrong.
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Post by Roidininki 02.05.16 18:59

Please tell me where you think you are correct and I am wrong ?Im ignoring nothing .
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Post by Realist 02.05.16 19:12

whodunit wrote:


 But there are certain protocols to deductive reasoning, or logical deduction.
Indeed there are, unfortunately, many on here and elsewhere totally ignore logical conclusion, the most obvious example being, 'why would any sane minded person seek to turn an accident into a potential murder enquiry by disposing of a body and concocting a spurious kidnapping fable.'

The reasons provided vary from the sublime to the ridiculous.
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Post by Guest 02.05.16 19:36

whodunit wrote:
Roidininki wrote:
Claire25 wrote:If it was a simply violent act though, I just cannot believe that the other Tapas members would have covered it up though.  Sorry, I do believe there's more to it.  Will have to agree to disagree.
That's fine with me, what would life be if we all thought alike ?

It's not a matter of thinking alike or holding differing opinions. We all have our views on food and home decor and that's fine because nobody is ever wrong. But there are certain protocols to deductive reasoning, or logical deduction. Any conclusions one reaches while ignoring certain facts can be assumed to be inherently wrong.
Or... critical thinking is a bitch.

They can't do you for reasoned argument.

But those ducks better be in a row.
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Post by Carrry On Doctor 02.05.16 19:45

whodunit wrote:
Claire25 wrote:If it was a simply violent act though, I just cannot believe that the other Tapas members would have covered it up though.  Sorry, I do believe there's more to it.  Will have to agree to disagree.

Exactly.

 Without this context one can only have a partial or limited perspective. The McCanns were not isolated in their efforts to cover this up. The assistance they received must be taken into account when attempting to determine what possibly could have happened, and what probably did not happen. The help the McCs received in the cover up, not only from the Tapas but from the British diplomatic corps is unusual in the extreme. This help suggests something other than a simple accident, or even a murder involving only the McCs. The motive had to be very strong to induce the Tapas to assist in a cover up. Trying to help friends avoid responsibility for an accident OR a murder is simply not enough of a motive. Place yourself in the shoes of any one of the Tapas imagine one of your friends suddenly had to contend with a dead child. If they suggested a cover up to you, would you go along with it or would you immediately alert the police? What in God's green earth would be enough to induce you to go along with it? Think about it....

Regarding the cover up outwith the T9, it is important to consider why the OC was packed to capacity, out of season, with people of the wrong social demographic. What professional / moneyed people go to an average resort when the weather is typically cold. Answer: Those attending an organised sex holiday.

Totally agree with the arguments being put forward about the reasons for avoiding an autopsy, and protection of careers/reputations etc, but the bigger picture seems to be that many people, staying at the OC and nearby, have something to hide.

As for direct Government intervention (the high level cover up), as I posted on another thread a few days ago, the Craig Murray interview suggests that Blair et al seized a golden opportunity to be seen to help help a very British family in apparent crisis, despite the warnings from John Buck, the FCO man on the ground. A political point scoring stunt that OG (assuming their intentions be honourable) have now debunked and are awaiting guidance on. As BHH confirmed last week on the day of the Hillsborough verdict, the PM is now personally intervening in the case, such is its sensitivity.

Meanwhile, GA tools up for the final assault. If/when the truth is revealed, there will be many with egg on their face.
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Post by whodunit 02.05.16 19:58

@Carrry On Doctor--"the Craig Murray interview suggests that Blair et al seized a golden opportunity to be seen to help help a very British family in apparent crisis"

I vehemently disagree with this assessment of Craig Murray's article. Murray neither says nor implies any such thing. In fact he outright says the level of support was absolutely not the norm. Murray is perplexed by the support and while he refuses to attribute it to high level pedophile rings, he most assuredly does not attribute it to some kind of PR stunt to make the government look good.

"This again is absolutely not the norm. On a daily basis more British citizens have contact with foreign authorities than the total staff of the FCO. It would be simply impossible to give that level of support to everybody. Plus, against jingoistic presumption, a great many Brits who have contact with foreign police are actually criminals.
The British Ambassador in Portugal, John Buck, had been my direct boss in the FCO. he was Deputy Head of Southern European Department when I was Head of Cyprus Section. He and his staff were concerned by contradictions in the McCann’s story. The Embassy warned, in writing, that being perceived as too close to the McCanns might not prove wise. They demanded the instruction from London be reconfirmed. It was."

If anything, continuing support for the McCanns carried with it the risk of MORE embarrassment to the governement should it be proven they were involved, as they were warned of in by John Buck. In any case, it's clear to most that their involvement contributed to effectively protecting the McCanns from arrest and prosecution. Frankly, by withholding the Gaspar statements, financial information, and medical records the UK govt can be seen as obstructing the case. That is taking PR stunt way too far, don't you think?
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Post by ChippyM 02.05.16 20:07

Roidininki wrote:From witnessing the child 's behaviour . An abused child presents all manner of symptoms . Nowhere in any of the photos can I see an abused child .She is always described as happy .

This is used by the defence side in abuse cases, it has also been used in stories by the media to paint abuse victims as having an agenda or some how being complicit in the abuse. The defence say 'how can that child have been abused when there are happy smiling pictures of the child with the alleged abuser?' Or..'how can that child have been abused when they agreed to go on a trip with the alleged abuser'?
  The truth is child abusers are often close to their victims and the victim may love them as any other family member, they could feel safe one minute and frightened the next, they will be given gifts and taken on trips to make them feel they owe the abuser something. Then you have children that are very young and may not realise what happening isn't normal, this is why these things are often hard to prove.
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Post by Carrry On Doctor 02.05.16 20:07

With respect @Whodunit, Craig Murray does say, and does imply exactly that. The closing paragraph of your rant emphasises just why this has has been such a political own goal.

Seems I have touched a raw nerve.
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Post by Verdi 02.05.16 20:09

@Joss wrote:  Yeah i wonder if GA still holds exactly the same opinion as he did initially, that Madeleine had an accident in the apartment? If he thinks there could possibly be any other scenario that could of caused Madeleine to end up deceased?


I'll wager he's a whole lot wiser as regards the case today than he was in May 2007.  I believe he was well on the way to the truth during the summer of 2007 - hence he was removed from the position of case coordinator.

Mr. Amaral was a seasoned officer of the law, they don't get to where they are by being stupid.  Apart from evidence etc. they have instinct to guide them - or gut feeling if you prefer.

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