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*** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

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How will you vote in the E.U. Referendum?

18% 18% 
[ 47 ]
79% 79% 
[ 209 ]
3% 3% 
[ 7 ]
0% 0% 
[ 3 ]
 
Total Votes : 266

Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Tony Bennett on 27.07.16 23:27

@Verdi wrote:How to resign gracefully - and other Brexit lessons for Africa

8 hours ago

In our series of letters from African journalists, novelist and writer Adaobi Tricia Nwaubani looks at the spate of resignations in the UK after the vote to leave the European Union and asks whether there are any lessons for Africa.

How many African leaders would dare do such a thing? Occupy a residence just vacated by a predecessor without first inviting native doctors or shamans or pastors to sanctify the place and cleanse it...

Er, @ Verdi, 'Cleansing' has an entirely different meaning in some African countries, notably Malawi, where witch doctors, shamans and tribal chiefs 'cleanse' children by having sex with them.

I am not joking:

https://www.rt.com/news/353542-malawian-man-sex-girls/

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                            "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?" - Amelie, May 2007 -  "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?"


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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Verdi on 28.07.16 1:09

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Verdi wrote:How to resign gracefully - and other Brexit lessons for Africa

8 hours ago

In our series of letters from African journalists, novelist and writer Adaobi Tricia Nwaubani looks at the spate of resignations in the UK after the vote to leave the European Union and asks whether there are any lessons for Africa.

How many African leaders would dare do such a thing? Occupy a residence just vacated by a predecessor without first inviting native doctors or shamans or pastors to sanctify the place and cleanse it...

Er, @ Verdi, 'Cleansing' has an entirely different meaning in some African countries, notably Malawi, where witch doctors, shamans and tribal chiefs 'cleanse' children by having sex with them.

I am not joking:

https://www.rt.com/news/353542-malawian-man-sex-girls/
Yes, I've read about the 'hyena'.  It's hard to believe that this kind of bizarre ritual continues in the 21st century but alas, it does.  The more modernized educated generations move forward but their died in the wool ancestors still believe in their ancient traditions.  Many moons ago I was mingling in a market place with camera, when out of the shadows came flying a bloke brandishing a rusty old knife intent of stabbing me to death for stealing his soul by taking a photograph.  

In rural areas of under-developed countries they still rely on curious concoctions to combat impotence, dampen ardour, enhance fertility, banish disease, exorcise evil spirits and whatever else you care not to think of.

Difficult to comprehend when you live in a comparatively civilized environment.

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by aquila on 28.07.16 10:07

If you look at the small adds in regional South African newspapers you'll find adverts for all forms of witchy-pokery stuff. Such adverts are pinned to trees and sellotaped to trees, lampposts and shop windows. The Africans love their witchy pokery. Tribes survive on this tosh - it's called muti.

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Verdi on 28.07.16 15:22

Well of course some of these cultural practices have been imported into the UK in more recent years which is no better than accepting Islamic law.  Atrocities such as expelling evil spirits from the body and female genital mutilation - barbaric to say the least and totally uneccesary to boot. 

Slightly going off on a tangent, in working days of yore, a new girl appeared on the block who was swiftly elevated to quite a powerful position by her socialist party peers.  This woman was the complete package - a black unemployed disabled lesbian feminist socialist with mental health issues.  You don't need to be a genius to realise what her priorities were for the future.  The first dictate was an across the board establishment of working groups to represent just about every minority group you can think of - not a bad idea in principle but totally useless in practice.   Shortly followed by an instruction for a must have quota of minority groups represented throughout.

Call me old fashioned but in the working environment I tend to favour ability over ethnicity.  Unfortunately, that's not the general rule of thumb for the political world.  When you open the doors to welcome asylum seekers you have to accept that with them they bring their own cultures and beliefs - good or bad.

Keep BritainTidy!

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by BlueBag on 28.07.16 20:02

So... we just approved handing over BILLIONS of pounds of British taxpayers money to a French company to build a nuclear power station AND TAKE ALL THE PROFITS.

Absolute treachery.

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proud to be European

Post by Harriet94 on 28.07.16 21:41

I am obviously a minority voice on this forum as a Labour Party supporter and a pro- European Remain supporter.
On the day's that followed the events of 3rd May 2007, I became ashamed of the attitude of the British press towards our Portuguese friends and neighbours. I also felt deeply ashamed that it was considered "normal" for the British to behave this way towards their children . I am proud to be a European and enjoyed European hospitality and friendship whenever I have travelled abroad
I am so sorry that others have abused this relationship between nations.

.

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by yesitsmeandsowhat. on 28.07.16 22:45

So Tony and Aquila are ganging up on poor Joyce, as usual, on the other thread.

Tony and his pathetic obvious sock, Verdi, having a bit of a orchestrated fall out with Aquila as well beforehand for show (What a strange weirdo she is - as everyone knows)

Jesus - how pathetic. 

The sad games played on here are appalling. Remember Madeleine.....

Nope - didn't think so. 

But all is good as Jill has 10 trillion hits on whatever she's on that's gone to her head. Amazing stats though. 

60 whatever days left for Op Grange to end apparently - or Tony to wet himself in pleasure that it will, so the coast is clear. 

Anyway, justice for Madeleine and the truth to come out. All of it. And it will. 

Good night folks.

yesitsmeandsowhat.
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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 29.07.16 8:15

yesitsmeandsowhat. wrote:So Tony and Aquila are ganging up on poor Joyce, as usual, on the other thread.

Tony and his pathetic obvious sock, Verdi, having a bit of a orchestrated fall out with Aquila as well beforehand for show (What a strange weirdo she is - as everyone knows)

Jesus - how pathetic. 

The sad games played on here are appalling. Remember Madeleine.....

Nope - didn't think so. 

But all is good as Jill has 10 trillion hits on whatever she's on that's gone to her head. Amazing stats though. 

60 whatever days left for Op Grange to end apparently - or Tony to wet himself in pleasure that it will, so the coast is clear. 

Anyway, justice for Madeleine and the truth to come out. All of it. And it will. 

Good night folks.
Hello again Andrew

Nice of you to take time away from your football, gambling, boozing, trolling and late night death threat calls to Tony to remind members of this forum to remember Madeleine.

What have you done exactly to help find the truth about what really happened to Madeleine? Not a lot from what I can see.

Also, I have never said I've had "10 trillion" hits - I said I've had over "85 MILLION" hits https://plus.google.com/109579544709177381612/plusones

Big difference don't you think? As much of a big difference as what we do here as opposed to what you do over there.

And that's because we don't spend our time boozing, gambling, trolling etc...we actually DO something to try to unravel this mystery.

And it would seem our efforts here upset you rather a lot to the point where you feel you need to issue death threats.

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Tony Bennett on 29.07.16 8:36

@ Get'emGoncalo   I think it's good that you've allowed Andrew's ('yesitsmeandsowhat') post to stand, because it illustrates the hate (and jealousy) that he bears towards the work of this forum, and it reveals his unwearied malice in attacking us wherever and whenever he can, even taking advantage of the 'guest' facility. What gets me is that he is feted in another place, although at least in that other place he now only pours out his malice in secret and not on the open forum.

They are welcome to him, after all it is a free country

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Tony Bennett on 29.07.16 9:01

@Harriet94 wrote:I am obviously a minority voice on this forum as a  Labour Party supporter and a pro-European Remain  supporter.

REPLY: There were a great many Labour Party members and supporters who voted Brexit - well over a third of them according to surveys that have been done. And some Labour MPs made fine contributions to the Brexit campaign: Gisela Stuart (a German), Kate Hoey, Dennis Skinner and Frank Field among several others.
  
On the days that followed the events of 3rd May 2007, I became ashamed of the attitude of the British press towards our Portuguese friends and neighbours.

REPLY: I've not seen that anywhere. Can you please publish any links where any British newspaper has shown a 'bad attitude' towards Portuguese people in Britain.
 

I also felt deeply ashamed that it was considered 'normal' for the British to behave this way towards their children.

REPLY: I am not sure at all what you mean by 'this way' towards children, could you please explain? What 'way' is that? If you culd explain, I'll try and answer your point.   

I am proud to be a European and enjoyed European hospitality and friendship whenever I have travelled abroad.

REPLY: I am dual heritage in having an English father and a mother whose heritage is Austrian/Czech.  I  was a Brexit supporter and have also 'enjoyed European hospitality and friendship whenever I have travelled abroad'. What is your point please?

I am so sorry that others have abused this relationship between nations.

REPLY: If anybody has 'abused relationships between nations', it is surely those who have built the European Union. Look at trade relations just for a start. We have now found out that for decades Britain has 'not been allowed' to do trade deals with other countries; the EU does this for us! And because they have to get 28 countries to agree on these deals, they take years and years to conclude. Now countries like China, India, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand and Canada are all falling over themselves to do trade deals with us.

And as for 'abusing' nations, see also how the E.U. and the euro have led to 50% youth unemployment in Spain and the Greek economy in ruins. Italian debts at record levels etc. etc.

Finally, I fully agree with you that it is hateful for anyone to abuse others on the street and so on for whatever reason at any time. However, it cannot surely be denied that the open borders policy of the 'free movement of people' brings problems as well as benefits. These have impacted certain areas more than others. Schools too full, hospitals under pressure, GPs' surgeries full of foreigners, wages depressed - these are all consequences which many British people witness week in, week out, and therefore we must be able to control immigration to reasonable levels - a policy with which the current Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, profoundly disagrees     





.

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                            "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?" - Amelie, May 2007 -  "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?"


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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by sallypelt on 29.07.16 11:28

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
yesitsmeandsowhat. wrote:So Tony and Aquila are ganging up on poor Joyce, as usual, on the other thread.

Tony and his pathetic obvious sock, Verdi, having a bit of a orchestrated fall out with Aquila as well beforehand for show (What a strange weirdo she is - as everyone knows)

Jesus - how pathetic. 

The sad games played on here are appalling. Remember Madeleine.....

Nope - didn't think so. 

But all is good as Jill has 10 trillion hits on whatever she's on that's gone to her head. Amazing stats though. 

60 whatever days left for Op Grange to end apparently - or Tony to wet himself in pleasure that it will, so the coast is clear. 

Anyway, justice for Madeleine and the truth to come out. All of it. And it will. 

Good night folks.
Hello again Andrew

Nice of you to take time away from your football, gambling, boozing, trolling and late night death threat calls to Tony to remind members of this forum to remember Madeleine.

What have you done exactly to help find the truth about what really happened to Madeleine? Not a lot from what I can see.

Also, I have never said I've had "10 trillion" hits - I said I've had over "85 MILLION" hits https://plus.google.com/109579544709177381612/plusones

Big difference don't you think? As much of a big difference as what we do here as opposed to what you do over there.

And that's because we don't spend our time boozing, gambling, trolling etc...we actually DO something to try to unravel this mystery.

And it would seem our efforts here upset you rather a lot to the point where you feel you need to issue death threats.

I don't know too much about "Andrew" other than his attacks on Tony, but he (Andrew) isn't too bright. Those of us who don't know him, or more to the point, don't want to know him, can't fail to recognise his writing style... (example provided). With his "..."  and his "(EXAMPLE)" littering his nasty, vitriolic text, it couldn't be anymore obvious if he put his name, address and bank details when signing off for the night.

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Richard IV on 29.07.16 11:59

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Harriet94 wrote:I am obviously a minority voice on this forum as a  Labour Party supporter and a pro-European Remain  supporter.

REPLY: There were a great many Labour Party members and supporters who voted Brexit - well over a third of them according to surveys that have been done. And some Labour MPs made fine contributions to the Brexit campaign: Gisela Stuart (a German), Kate Hoey, Dennis Skinner and Frank Field among several others.
  
On the days that followed the events of 3rd May 2007, I became ashamed of the attitude of the British press towards our Portuguese friends and neighbours.

REPLY: I've not seen that anywhere. Can you please publish any links where any British newspaper has shown a 'bad attitude' towards Portuguese people in Britain.
 

I also felt deeply ashamed that it was considered 'normal' for the British to behave this way towards their children.

REPLY: I am not sure at all what you mean by 'this way' towards children, could you please explain? What 'way' is that? If you culd explain, I'll try and answer your point.   

I am proud to be a European and enjoyed European hospitality and friendship whenever I have travelled abroad.

REPLY: I am dual heritage in having an English father and a mother whose heritage is Austrian/Czech.  I  was a Brexit supporter and have also 'enjoyed European hospitality and friendship whenever I have travelled abroad'. What is your point please?

I am so sorry that others have abused this relationship between nations.

REPLY: If anybody has 'abused relationships between nations', it is surely those who have built the European Union. Look at trade relations just for a start. We have now found out that for decades Britain has 'not been allowed' to do trade deals with other countries; the EU does this for us! And because they have to get 28 countries to agree on these deals, they take years and years to conclude. Now countries like China, India, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand and Canada are all falling over themselves to do trade deals with us.

And as for 'abusing' nations, see also how the E.U. and the euro have led to 50% youth unemployment in Spain and the Greek economy in ruins. Italian debts at record levels etc. etc.

Finally, I fully agree with you that it is hateful for anyone to abuse others on the street and so on for whatever reason at any time. However, it cannot surely be denied that the open borders policy of the 'free movement of people' brings problems as well as benefits. These have impacted certain areas more than others. Schools too full, hospitals under pressure, GPs' surgeries full of foreigners, wages depressed - these are all consequences which many British people witness week in, week out, and therefore we must be able to control immigration to reasonable levels - a policy with which the current Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, profoundly disagrees     





.
I hate being referred to as European.  I am English and, I suppose, British.  We are not in the same land mass as Europe; we are an Island and thank goodness for that.  I do not want to join the grey/beige mass of mixed up cultures.  I like borders and I like the cultural differences.  Vive la difference de culture.  If I go abroad I want to experience different cultures - I don`t want to meet people similar to me.

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by plebgate on 29.07.16 12:57

I think there are millions of European people who feel the same as you Richard lV and that is why people from many EU countries are asking for a chance to vote in a referendum.

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POSITIVE NEWS FROM THE 'GET BRITAIN OUT' CAMPAIGN

Post by Tony Bennett on 29.07.16 20:16

@plebgate wrote:I think there are millions of European people who feel the same as you Richard lV and that is why people from many EU countries are asking for a chance to vote in a referendum                                                                                                                                              




29th July 2016
POSITIVE NEWS FROM THE 'GET BRITAIN OUT' CAMPAIGN
Dear Friends and Supporters,

Brexit Means a More Global Britain

Whilst the majority of MPs are off on holiday, leading figures from the UK government have been travelling the globe on a major diplomatic offensive.  Dr Liam Fox, Britain's new International Trade Secretary, has toured the United States seeking out further opportunities for trade. Boris Johnson, the new Foreign Secretary, has been in Paris providing assurances of continued British support for France during this highly troubled time.  Speaking in French, Mr Johnson said how he hoped the two countries would "face many challenges ahead together as friends and allies". The Prime Minister herself has also been touring the continent, speaking to her European counterparts, as part of her diplomatic offensive ahead of Brexit negotiations. Theresa May should bear in mind the abject failure of David Cameron’s European tours and his failure to negotiate meaningful reforms to our relationship with Europe. We hope she will have learnt from her predecessor’s mistakes.

Mrs May has been very fond of using the phrase “Brexit means Brexit” to reassure voters and to hide the fact she was a Remain campaigner. We have written a blog explaining how the only form of Brexit which will be acceptable to the British public is a free trade agreement with the EU, which does not include free movement of people. Any attempt to stay in the EU via the back door of the European Economic Area would be a betrayal of the voters and must not be allowed to happen. (How Brexit can mean Brexit)

We are delighted to hear Dr Fox believes the best deal for Britain would be a wide-ranging free trade agreement with the EU, and not remaining in the Single Market. He has come out against membership of the European Economic Area (EEA), which would mean we would continue to have free movement of people with the EU, even if there is a 7-year break – this would still mean free movement would resume sometime in the mid-2020s. This is not an acceptable deal, given that 17.4 million Brits voted for Brexit, to ensure Britain once again gets controls over our borders. The Great British Public voted to take back control and to restore the authority and accountability of Parliament and this can only be achieved outside the Single Market.

It looks like Dr Fox is going to be a very busy man. Once we are out of the EU, we can take back control of the United Kingdom - and sign our own free trade agreements with many countries already knocking on our door. In total there are 27 countries around the world, signalling their intent to forge a free trade deal with Britain. They include 8 of the largest 10 economies in the world, including Brazil, China and the USA - in total they represent just over two thirds of World GDP. Countries from every continent want a trade deal with Britain and we are once again on the cusp of being a global trading nation.

We wrote for Huffington Post, explaining why a trade deal is in the mutual interest of the UK and the EU. Trade will carry on because the UK is such an important market to the EU. To refuse to trade would be the most extraordinary act of spite, and would be a case of cutting off their nose in order to spite their face. There is a deep understanding of this in Germany, where senior politicians - right up to Merkel herself - are calling for a conciliatory tone in Brexit negotiations. A Brexit punishment - contrary to popular belief - would not dissuade other countries from leaving the EU, but would encourage others to jump ship, specifically Ireland. An EU which fails to create trade deals of mutual benefit to all parties involved, will not strengthen the EU, but weaken it. (An EU Trade War Would Destroy the European Project)

Now we have voted for Brexit, we must set a new course for Britain. We must re-engage with the wider world through the Commonwealth. Our most recent blog on the issue explains how a Commonwealth Free Trade Agreement could fuel the British economy for years to come, due its size and potential for growth. Additionally, a revived and revitalised Commonwealth would aid British security as well as reinstating Britain as world leader. (Britain’s Future is with the Commonwealth)

There was some suggestion last weekend of the EU offering the UK temporary curbs on immigration in return for access to the Single Market. The Daily Express quoted our Campaign Director, Jayne Adye, who said: “The EU seems to have been shaken by Brexit. But we must have control of our own borders and not a time-limited sticking plaster.” Remaining in the Single Market would not allow genuine control over our laws or our borders. Get Britain Out believes this must be a “red line” in Brexit negotiations. (Brussels deal keeping Britain from being fully independent of EU sparked fury)

This week has seen more companies announce significant investments in the UK. Of particular interest are: GlaxoSmithKline, which has announced £275 million of fresh investment in three of its manufacturing sites in the UK; London City Airport has announced a £344 million expansion; and Deutsche Börse’s shareholders have overwhelmingly approved its merger with the London Stock Exchange. (Regarding the latter, with both the LSE and Deutsche Börse’s shareholders now supporting this deal, the companies now have to convince the 40-plus regulators globally to sign off the creation of this dominant European market operator.) Considering the high profile of these companies during the Remain camp’s Project Fear, it appears they have made a rather swift U-turn on Brexit.

Last week, UKIP’s Parliamentary Spokesperson and former Vote Leave board member Suzanne Evans wrote an exclusive article for Get Britain Out. Suzanne argues “Brexit is going to be brilliant. It will open up a huge new world of opportunity. Already the world is queuing up to offer us free trade deals. Significantly, some of the countries first off the starting block are top 10 world economies the EU has failed to sign deals with, despite trying for years: countries like Canada, the USA and India. We should have international free trade deals ready to be signed the moment we leave the EU.” (Suzanne Evans: What Will Brexit Look Like?) Unfortunately, Suzanne has been denied a place on the ballot paper for the coming UKIP leadership election due to her suspension - which only comes to an end after the nominations close. We wish her well.

This week has seen the appointment of Michel Barnier as Brussels' chief negotiator for Brexit. The 65-year old former cabinet minister is a member of the centre-right Les Republicains party and a passionate and committed Europhile. Mr Barnier is the former European Commissioner and long-term ally of European Commission President, Jean-Claude Juncker. Considering Mr Barnier’s reputation as a tough negotiator and a hardliner on the financial sector, this will be of concern to the City.  He was once described as “the most dangerous man in Europe”, and his past hostilities with the UK - which he blames for losing his job as the European Commissioner for Financial Services -  his appointment is highly provocative. In an article for Breitbart we explained how this confrontational approach towards Brexit taken by Brussels will damage the EU in the long run. It is clear the EU’s current leadership must change course, or else they will ensure the destruction of the European project. (The EU Must Change or Collapse)

We appreciate your support and your opinions too. If you check out our website regularly, as well as our social media, you will find lots of information to continue to inform you, your friends and colleagues about what is going on with the negotiations and what we are investigating ourselves. Get Britain Out will continue to work to ensure we get the best deal for the United Kingdom, and will not rest until we have done so.

ONWARDS AND OUTWARDS
 
Jayne Adye, Director and the Team at Get Britain Out
 
P.S. It is important to spread information and the truth about this vital issue, so please forward this e-Bulletin to as many of your colleagues, friends and family to Sign Up to our campaign (if they have not already done so) so they can all receive these information bulletins. The more people who understand what’s going on, the better. All information remains confidential.

P.P.S. We hugely appreciate your help, both financially and otherwise. If you have any queries, please e-mail them to info@getbritainout.org, and we will do our best to help, or pass on your requests. Everything you contribute in donations goes directly towards our work to secure Brexit. Do please also think about donating to our vital campaign.

____________________

                            "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?" - Amelie, May 2007 -  "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?"


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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Harriet94 on 30.07.16 22:22

I apologise for my badly worded previous post. I was trying to make a point about the attitude of the msn towards Portugal and the Portuguese police force in particular following the disappearance of Madeleine McCann . I was not referring to Portuguese people in this country. I realise I did not make this clear. My comments about the treatment of children were again related to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. I was challenging the assertion that in British culture it is"well within the bounds of responsible parenting " to leave 3 under 4 year old children alone in an unlocked holiday apartment. I to value diversity and different cultures which is why I enjoy travel so much. The abuse I refer to is when people travel abroad and abuse the hospitality of the host nation.



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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Tony Bennett on 31.07.16 0:35

@Harriet94 wrote:I apologise for my badly worded previous post. I was trying to make a point about the attitude of the msn towards Portugal and the Portuguese police force in particular following the disappearance of Madeleine McCann . I was not referring to Portuguese people in this country. I realise I did not make this clear. My comments about the treatment of children were again related to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. I was challenging the assertion that in British culture it is"well within the bounds of responsible parenting " to leave 3 under 4 year old children alone in an unlocked holiday apartment. I to value diversity and different cultures which is why I enjoy travel so much. The abuse I refer to is when people travel abroad and abuse the hospitality of the host nation.
Ah! Thank you very much for clearing that up.

I think as a rule the MSM in Britain are not habitually rude towards foreign countries, and certainly not European ones. OK, maybe we've criticised things like Greek profligacy, or Swiss bank secrecy, or bullfighting in Spain etc,, but probably all with good reason.

But is it not the peculiar and bizarre nature of the McCann case that gives us a distorted view of so much?

We are compelled to view everything through the lens of the McCanns' account of why Madeleine disappeared. They say she was abducted. We must believe it. They say that the Portuguese police were inept and like 'Keystone cops' - and therefore we must believe it (and the MSM have regurgitated this rubbish without question). 

They say that the press are too beastly - and therefore we had the 'Hacked Off' campaign and the Leveson enquiry, and demands to end freedom of the press.

Perhaps most solemn of all, the McCanns loudly called for internet trolls to be dealt with severely. Therefore Brenda Leyland was outed - and committed suicide less than 72 hours later. And so on.

But one thing we can and must criticise Portugal for - and that is its dreadful system of justice.

How can any nation delay a final outcome to a libel case for 7 years, 1 month and counting - with still the end not in sight? The libel/defamation case against Amaral is an international disgrace - even if the 'right' result is reached in the bitter end.

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Tony Cadogan on 31.07.16 14:34

All italicization in this post is mine.

At http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t12428p1000-17410742-brits-52-vote-for-brexit-on-independence-day-was-e-u-referendum-the-state-of-the-polls#347183 (the ultimate paragraph):

“How can any nation delay a final outcome to a libel case for 7 years, 1 month and counting - with still the end not in sight? The libel/defamation case against Amaral is an international disgrace - even if the 'right' result is reached in the bitter end.”

IN APPARENT CONTRADISTINCTION TO:

McCann v Gonçalo Amaral - Day 12
8 July 2014

At (please substitute a full stop for ‘dot’ in the following URL) mccannfilesdotcom/id454.html (the last five paragraphs on the page):

GMC - says that he wants to make a comment about the dogs; he wants to make it clear that it is not a fact that they detected blood...

The judge interrupts him - The issue here isn't not to elucidate what actually happened The perspective, in this trial, is to determine whether the book and the documentary affected the plaintiffs.

GMC - But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

The judge - The point isn't to establish whether things are true or not, this is not the issue. We want to know whether we are in the juridical remit of offence to persons. For this it's not necessary to know what the truth is. As a judge I'm not supposed to stand in for a criminal investigation.

And so it ended.”


Thank you.

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The 2014 court decision in McCann v Amaral was WRONG

Post by Tony Bennett on 31.07.16 18:41

@Tony Cadogan wrote:All italicization in this post is mine.

At http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t12428p1000-17410742-brits-52-vote-for-brexit-on-independence-day-was-e-u-referendum-the-state-of-the-polls#347183 (the ultimate paragraph):

“How can any nation delay a final outcome to a libel case for 7 years, 1 month and counting - with still the end not in sight? The libel/defamation case against Amaral is an international disgrace - even if the 'right' result is reached in the bitter end.”

IN APPARENT CONTRADISTINCTION TO:

McCann v Gonçalo Amaral - Day 12
8 July 2014

At (please substitute a full stop for ‘dot’ in the following URL) mccannfilesdotcom/id454.html (the last five paragraphs on the page):

GMC - says that he wants to make a comment about the dogs; he wants to make it clear that it is not a fact that they detected blood...

The judge interrupts him - The issue here isn't not to elucidate what actually happened The perspective, in this trial, is to determine whether the book and the documentary affected the plaintiffs.

GMC - But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

The judge - The point isn't to establish whether things are true or not, this is not the issue. We want to know whether we are in the juridical remit of offence to persons. For this it's not necessary to know what the truth is. As a judge I'm not supposed to stand in for a criminal investigation.

And so it ended.”


Thank you.
@ Tony Cadogan - I am afraid you have thoroughly missed the point - indeed you have missed quite a few points.

You may have forgotten - or may even be unaware - that you are quoting from a lower court judgment in 2014 which was comprehensively overruled by the Portuguese Court of Appeal in 2015. That judgment is on this forum for reference. The McCanns have since appealed that to the Supreme Court.

You may also have forgotten about the decisions of the Portuguese Court of Appeal and the Portuguese Supreme Court in October 2010 and March 2011 respectively.

These decisions made it quite clear that the real issue in the case always was the rights of Goncalo Amaral under Article 10 European Convention on Human Rights to his freedom of speech versus the McCanns' rights to 'protection of their reputation'.

You may recall that in one angry exchange with a journalist (can't find the link just now) Gerry McCann said 'Amaral may have the right to freedom of speech, but that doesn't include the right to distort'.

The Appeal and Supreme Courts held that Amaral's free speech rights prevailed over the McCanns' right to protection of their reputation. In other words, the case was about the McCanns' reputation - a simple 'libel case' as we would call it in England. Put simply, the lady judge in the 2014 case was plain wrong.  

We also have that October 2010 Appeal Court decision in our forum if you want to check it out.

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Hobs on 31.07.16 23:01

GMC - But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

If they aren't true, then they cannot be facts.


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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Tony Cadogan on 31.07.16 23:30

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Tony Cadogan wrote:All italicization in this post is mine.

At http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t12428p1000-17410742-brits-52-vote-for-brexit-on-independence-day-was-e-u-referendum-the-state-of-the-polls#347183 (the ultimate paragraph):

“How can any nation delay a final outcome to a libel case for 7 years, 1 month and counting - with still the end not in sight? The libel/defamation case against Amaral is an international disgrace - even if the 'right' result is reached in the bitter end.”

IN APPARENT CONTRADISTINCTION TO:

McCann v Gonçalo Amaral - Day 12
8 July 2014

At (please substitute a full stop for ‘dot’ in the following URL) mccannfilesdotcom/id454.html (the last five paragraphs on the page):

GMC - says that he wants to make a comment about the dogs; he wants to make it clear that it is not a fact that they detected blood...

The judge interrupts him - The issue here isn't not to elucidate what actually happened The perspective, in this trial, is to determine whether the book and the documentary affected the plaintiffs.

GMC - But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

The judge - The point isn't to establish whether things are true or not, this is not the issue. We want to know whether we are in the juridical remit of offence to persons. For this it's not necessary to know what the truth is. As a judge I'm not supposed to stand in for a criminal investigation.

And so it ended.”


Thank you.
@ Tony Cadogan - I am afraid you have thoroughly missed the point - indeed you have missed quite a few points.

You may have forgotten - or may even be unaware - that you are quoting from a lower court judgment in 2014 which was comprehensively overruled by the Portuguese Court of Appeal in 2015. That judgment is on this forum for reference. The McCanns have since appealed that to the Supreme Court.

You may also have forgotten about the decisions of the Portuguese Court of Appeal and the Portuguese Supreme Court in October 2010 and March 2011 respectively.

These decisions made it quite clear that the real issue in the case always was the rights of Goncalo Amaral under Article 10 European Convention on Human Rights to his freedom of speech versus the McCanns' rights to 'protection of their reputation'.

You may recall that in one angry exchange with a journalist (can't find the link just now) Gerry McCann said 'Amaral may have the right to freedom of speech, but that doesn't include the right to distort'.

The Appeal and Supreme Courts held that Amaral's free speech rights prevailed over the McCanns' right to protection of their reputation. In other words, the case was about the McCanns' reputation - a simple 'libel case' as we would call it in England. Put simply, the lady judge in the 2014 case was plain wrong.  

We also have that October 2010 Appeal Court decision in our forum if you want to check it out.


Tony Bennett

Thank you for your comprehensive reply.

I have not “thoroughly missed the point”, nor have I indeed “missed quite a few points.” Seemingly, you might have :-)

I have neither referred to nor quoted “from a lower court judgement in 2014”. This should have been apparent as I have provided a link (mccannfilesdotcom/id454.html (the last five paragraphs on the page)) wherefrom I had copied the exchange pasted in my post.

I am familiar with all the germane decisions of the Portuguese lower, Appellate and Superior courts.

Like yourself, I do remember GM’s “angry exchange” you have referred to.

In my post, I have simply pointed out that, in Portugal, the to civil case in question has, formally, nothing to do with a criminal offence of libel. I have presumed you would have been aware of this.

Good wishes

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Verdi on 31.07.16 23:46

@Hobs wrote:GMC - But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

If they aren't true, then they cannot be facts.


dance
They can when your name is McCann - same as specialist dogs can be proven unreliable when scientifically tested yes .

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by BlueBag on 02.08.16 21:06

This is an Ivy League professor speaking the truth about the system.



The current system is set up to screw you and control you if you're not in the club.

His point about democracy being an insurance policy for the rich is spot on and it doesn't do for them to skimp on the payments as they have been doing.

His message to the rich about The Hamptons not being very defensible is chilling, but also spot on.

If you screw people enough they will eventually turn and come for you.

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Roxyroo on 03.08.16 0:09

@Verdi wrote:
@Hobs wrote:GMC - But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

If they aren't true, then they cannot be facts.


dance
They can when your name is McCann - same as specialist dogs can be proven unreliable when scientifically tested yes .


Facts like- loss of appetite being included in the action against Amaral....didn't stop them eating "the best risotto" with dear old Clement a few days after MBM "disappeared". !!!

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by sallypelt on 03.08.16 14:27

‘The EU is close to death’: Bloc trade chief launches bitter warning amid fears Canada deal could collapse 

The European Union's director general for trade has reportedly warned the bloc's trade policy is 'close to death' if its deal with Canada falls through.
The EU-Canada trade deal, which has taken seven years to negotiate, is one of the most comprehensive ever struck.
Jean-Luc Demarty said Brussels would have a 'big credibility problem' if the agreement collapsed.

Demarty spoke at the bloc's trade policy committee after France and Germany insisted that a trade deal with Canada - the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) - will have to be agreed on by all 38 national and regional parliaments before it can be signed off by Canada.
Notes from the meeting, leaked to Politico, say Demarty 'emphasised the outstanding importance of CETA' .
He spoke about how important it was to complete a very good deal and also how CETA is a test for the EU's trade policy




'Canada is a third country which stands very close to the EU. If the EU is not able to ratify this agreement, the EU trade policy would have a big credibility problem; it would be 'close to death',' the leaked notes say.
An EU-Canada summit will take place on October 27 but the deal may still not have been ratified by then.
In July, Canada's trade minister said large parts of a free trade deal between Canada and the European Union should come into force next year, even though the EU's executive commission opted against fast-track approval.

'This is a really important and great next step,' Chrystia Freeland said in a interview.

The commission, facing increased popular suspicion about big trade deals, said it would give member states' national parliaments the right to approve or reject the free trade agreement.

But Freeland said she expected the European Parliament - a separate body which groups legislators from all 28 EU nations - to ratify the deal early next year.

Under EU rules this means that around 90 percent of the agreement, which she described as a 'push back against angry populism', would come into force provisionally.

But free trade is becoming a harder sell for governments amid a shift towards protectionism, which helped fuel Britain's vote last month to leave the EU as well as the rise of U.S. Republican presidential contender Donald Trump.

'It's important for Europe and for the world that we show it's possible to do great, progressive trade agreements,' said Freeland, citing worker and environmental protections in CETA, or the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement.

'This is Canada and Europe's push back against the angry populism we're seeing in so many parts of the world.'

Freeland also said Montreal was keen for the UK to piggyback on its comprehensive free trade deal.

And she made it clear that Canada had no interest in punishing the UK for leaving the EU, saying: 'We have a very robust relationship – we are not just friends, we are family.'









The commission, facing increased popular suspicion about big trade deals, said it would give member states' national parliaments the right to approve or reject the free trade agreement.
But Freeland said she expected the European Parliament - a separate body which groups legislators from all 28 EU nations - to ratify the deal early next year.
Under EU rules this means that around 90 percent of the agreement, which she described as a 'push back against angry populism', would come into force provisionally.
But free trade is becoming a harder sell for governments amid a shift towards protectionism, which helped fuel Britain's vote last month to leave the EU as well as the rise of U.S. Republican presidential contender Donald Trump.
'It's important for Europe and for the world that we show it's possible to do great, progressive trade agreements,' said Freeland, citing worker and environmental protections in CETA, or the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement.
'This is Canada and Europe's push back against the angry populism we're seeing in so many parts of the world.'
Freeland also said Montreal was keen for the UK to piggyback on its comprehensive free trade deal.
And she made it clear that Canada had no interest in punishing the UK for leaving the EU, saying: 'We have a very robust relationship – we are not just friends, we are family.'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3721354/Bloc-trade-chief-launches-bitter-warning-amid-fears-Canada-deal-collapse.html

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Re: *** 17,410,742 Brits (52%) vote for BREXIT on "INDEPENDENCE DAY" *** (was: E.U. REFERENDUM - The state of the polls)

Post by Tony Bennett on 03.08.16 20:52

@Tony Cadogan wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Tony Cadogan wrote:All italicization in this post is mine.

At http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t12428p1000-17410742-brits-52-vote-for-brexit-on-independence-day-was-e-u-referendum-the-state-of-the-polls#347183 (the ultimate paragraph):

“How can any nation delay a final outcome to a libel case for 7 years, 1 month and counting - with still the end not in sight? The libel/defamation case against Amaral is an international disgrace - even if the 'right' result is reached in the bitter end.”

IN APPARENT CONTRADISTINCTION TO:

McCann v Gonçalo Amaral - Day 12
8 July 2014

At (please substitute a full stop for ‘dot’ in the following URL) mccannfilesdotcom/id454.html (the last five paragraphs on the page):

GMC - says that he wants to make a comment about the dogs; he wants to make it clear that it is not a fact that they detected blood...

The judge interrupts him - The issue here isn't not to elucidate what actually happened The perspective, in this trial, is to determine whether the book and the documentary affected the plaintiffs.

GMC - But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

The judge - The point isn't to establish whether things are true or not, this is not the issue. We want to know whether we are in the juridical remit of offence to persons. For this it's not necessary to know what the truth is. As a judge I'm not supposed to stand in for a criminal investigation.

And so it ended.”


Thank you.
@ Tony Cadogan - I am afraid you have thoroughly missed the point - indeed you have missed quite a few points.

You may have forgotten - or may even be unaware - that you are quoting from a lower court judgment in 2014 which was comprehensively overruled by the Portuguese Court of Appeal in 2015. That judgment is on this forum for reference. The McCanns have since appealed that to the Supreme Court.

You may also have forgotten about the decisions of the Portuguese Court of Appeal and the Portuguese Supreme Court in October 2010 and March 2011 respectively.

These decisions made it quite clear that the real issue in the case always was the rights of Goncalo Amaral under Article 10 European Convention on Human Rights to his freedom of speech versus the McCanns' rights to 'protection of their reputation'.

You may recall that in one angry exchange with a journalist (can't find the link just now) Gerry McCann said 'Amaral may have the right to freedom of speech, but that doesn't include the right to distort'.

The Appeal and Supreme Courts held that Amaral's free speech rights prevailed over the McCanns' right to protection of their reputation. In other words, the case was about the McCanns' reputation - a simple 'libel case' as we would call it in England. Put simply, the lady judge in the 2014 case was plain wrong.  

We also have that October 2010 Appeal Court decision in our forum if you want to check it out.


Tony Bennett

Thank you for your comprehensive reply.

I have not “thoroughly missed the point”, nor have I indeed “missed quite a few points.”  Seemingly, you might have :-)

I have neither referred to nor quoted “from a lower court judgement in 2014”.  This should have been apparent as I have provided a link (mccannfilesdotcom/id454.html (the last five paragraphs on the page)) wherefrom I had copied the exchange pasted in my post.

I am familiar with all the germane decisions of the Portuguese lower, Appellate and Superior courts.

Like yourself, I do remember GM’s “angry exchange” you have referred to.

In my post, I have simply pointed out that, in Portugal, the to civil case in question has, formally, nothing to do with a criminal offence of libel. I have presumed you would have been aware of this.

Good wishes
This is a bit silly, me suggesting that you were missing the point, then you suggesting I was missing more points than I thought you were missing...etc.

To be frank, I am no really sure what your point is, still less where it takes us, if anywhere.

You wrote:  "In my post, I have simply pointed out that, in Portugal, the to [sic] civil case in question has, formally, nothing to do with a criminal offence of libel. I have presumed you would have been aware of this".

REPLY: Different national jurisdictions have different ways of dealing with libel cases. For some countries, it comes under the civil law (as it does in the UK, with one exception), while in others it comes under the criminal law. If I may give one current example, President Recip Tayyip Erdogan has just locked up hundreds of his people for the 'libel' of criticising him. How we should value pour free speech! 

I am NOT familiar with Portuguese law and quite frankly I have no idea why you should 'presume' that I should be especially aware of the law in Portugal.

I will say this, though, that I thought that Goncalo Amaral's legal action against Madeira lawyer Marcos Aragao Correia was an accusation of 'criminal libel' - was it?

But frankly, does it matter a great deal for the purposes of this case whether it might be 'civil law' or 'criminal law' which applies to books which allegedly libel people?

Besides that, I didn't say it was a case of criminal libel, I just said it was a libel case. Which it is. It was about whether what Goncalo Amaral said in his book libeled, i.e. damaged the reputation of the McCanns. 

The only person who has ever made a great big song and dance about this issue was Textusa. And now I com to think of it, your writing style and knowledge of Portguese law does remind me of him and also Nuala Seaton, while she was here. 

Just to make it clear once again that this was a straightforward civil libel case, here are some relevant extracts from the Portuguese Appeal Court ruling in October 2010:
            

In just the same way, so far as the McCanns’ right to their reputation and a good name is concerned, once they placed the case in the public domain and gave it worldwide notoriety, the McCanns opened all doors to all opinions, even those that are in opposition to them.

Besides that, our understanding is that the circulation of facts contained within the judicial enquiry, and that were in fact published on the initiative of the Republic’s Office of the Attorney-General, can in no way be seen as an interference with a the right to a good image and a good name of subjects in a criminal investigation.

SNIPPED

We also are unable to understand how it is possible for the rights of subjects of a criminal investigation can be affected by the contents of a book that describes the facts of an investigation. The book’s conclusions may well depart from the Ministry of Justice’s interpretation of those facts, but it is nevertheless an analysis solidly and logically built upon those facts.

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