The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hello!

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.

When posting please be mindful that this forum is primarily about the death of a three year old girl.

Regards,

Jill Havern
Forum owner

If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by guest12345 on 23.10.15 15:27

The description of him by the smiths doesn't match the description of Murat, therefore it couldn't be him carrying the alleged child.

guest12345

Posts : 81
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2015-08-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 23.10.15 15:40

@guest12345 wrote:
@Rogue-a-Tory wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:IMO she died early evening on the 3rd May, approx. 7-7.30pm after being assaulted in 5a near to/behind the sofa. A clean up commenced, body moved to various places to hide/whilst looking for something to transport and then the cadaver finally removed from the apartment at approx. 9.15-30.

Enough time for an assault to take place, enough time for cadaver scent to materialise, enough time for a clean up, also verifies the tapas lot weren't checking the kids.

All just my opinion though. Just goes to show how many varying/wildly different theories there are on this story though hey!
60 minutes to 90 minutes to 'deep clean' the apartment, source then remove the cleaning materials/consumables, scrub up & get ready for the Tapas. Never mind any cover up planning.  Are you quite sure about that?   huh

7.30-9.30 (ish) is 120 mins, which yes, is enough time to clean up and throw cleaning stuff in a bin bag, especially if you were already wearing gloves to prevent leaving any traces already etc.

Personally, I don't think the intent was to kill her, but death occurred and hence the body needed removing as it contains evidence.
And they just happened to have all the correct gloves & cleaning materials with them on holiday?

Rogue-a-Tory

Posts : 424
Reputation : 265
Join date : 2014-09-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by guest12345 on 23.10.15 15:46

@Rogue-a-Tory wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:
@Rogue-a-Tory wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:IMO she died early evening on the 3rd May, approx. 7-7.30pm after being assaulted in 5a near to/behind the sofa. A clean up commenced, body moved to various places to hide/whilst looking for something to transport and then the cadaver finally removed from the apartment at approx. 9.15-30.

Enough time for an assault to take place, enough time for cadaver scent to materialise, enough time for a clean up, also verifies the tapas lot weren't checking the kids.

All just my opinion though. Just goes to show how many varying/wildly different theories there are on this story though hey!
60 minutes to 90 minutes to 'deep clean' the apartment, source then remove the cleaning materials/consumables, scrub up & get ready for the Tapas. Never mind any cover up planning.  Are you quite sure about that?   huh

7.30-9.30 (ish) is 120 mins, which yes, is enough time to clean up and throw cleaning stuff in a bin bag, especially if you were already wearing gloves to prevent leaving any traces already etc.

Personally, I don't think the intent was to kill her, but death occurred and hence the body needed removing as it contains evidence.
And they just happened to have all the correct gloves & cleaning materials with them on holiday?

Who said the perpetrator was on holiday? Not me.

Usually, when people commit a crime, they go prepared.

guest12345

Posts : 81
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2015-08-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by pennylane on 23.10.15 15:49

@guest12345 wrote:The description of him by the smiths doesn't match the description of Murat, therefore it couldn't be him carrying the alleged child.
Just because the Smiths saw a man that was not Murat, does not get Murat off the hook.   Firstly the timing of the alleged abduction did not correlate, and also it was not proven to be the abductor.   It does not get Murat off the hook in any way shape or form (imo). 

An alibi such as Tanner gave McCann, or something much more concrete would be needed to try and get someone off the hook. 

In addition, there is no proof whatsoever that the Smiths were friends with Murat, and they'd have to be really close to do something like that.  In fact I don't think it at all likely that a family would get mixed up in such a sordid case in such a sordid way. A 3 year old little girl is missing, maybe horribly abused or dead, and the Smith family are playing fast and loose with tall stories that won't make much difference.  I don't think so!

I absolutely believe the Smiths saw a man carrying a child on that ill fated night.

pennylane

Posts : 2529
Reputation : 1190
Join date : 2009-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 23.10.15 16:01

@guest12345 wrote:
@Rogue-a-Tory wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:
@Rogue-a-Tory wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:IMO she died early evening on the 3rd May, approx. 7-7.30pm after being assaulted in 5a near to/behind the sofa. A clean up commenced, body moved to various places to hide/whilst looking for something to transport and then the cadaver finally removed from the apartment at approx. 9.15-30.

Enough time for an assault to take place, enough time for cadaver scent to materialise, enough time for a clean up, also verifies the tapas lot weren't checking the kids.

All just my opinion though. Just goes to show how many varying/wildly different theories there are on this story though hey!
60 minutes to 90 minutes to 'deep clean' the apartment, source then remove the cleaning materials/consumables, scrub up & get ready for the Tapas. Never mind any cover up planning.  Are you quite sure about that?   huh

7.30-9.30 (ish) is 120 mins, which yes, is enough time to clean up and throw cleaning stuff in a bin bag, especially if you were already wearing gloves to prevent leaving any traces already etc.

Personally, I don't think the intent was to kill her, but death occurred and hence the body needed removing as it contains evidence.
And they just happened to have all the correct gloves & cleaning materials with them on holiday?

Who said the perpetrator was on holiday? Not me.

Usually, when people commit a crime, they go prepared.
So a perpetrator, not a holidaymaker, went along to 5A with all the necessary tackle to clean a crime scene, with the victim's parents in the flat in attendance at the time not involved in any of this? Presumably the perpetrator wore Kate's cloths too during their clean up. This theory gets better, maybe OG should pull in the local Kleeneze reps.

Rogue-a-Tory

Posts : 424
Reputation : 265
Join date : 2014-09-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Guest on 23.10.15 17:34

@ guest12345
IMO she died early evening on the 3rd May, approx. 7-7.30pm after being assaulted in 5a near to/behind the sofa. A clean up commenced, body moved to various places to hide/whilst looking for something to transport and then the cadaver finally removed from the apartment at approx. 9.15-30.

9.15-9.30 pm - this was the time Gerry bumped into Jez Wilkins and JT "saw" a man carrying a child. Do you believe there is a connection?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Stuey-Brown on 23.10.15 17:40

I think mr wilkins inadvertantly got himself into a mess. He was truthful at the beginning but was told or pressured to change his mind a bit.

I know mr wilkins from a while back and thats as much as i know.

Stuey-Brown

Posts : 7
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2015-10-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by whodunit on 23.10.15 17:43

@Rogue-a-Tory wrote:
@guest12345 wrote:IMO she died early evening on the 3rd May, approx. 7-7.30pm after being assaulted in 5a near to/behind the sofa. A clean up commenced, body moved to various places to hide/whilst looking for something to transport and then the cadaver finally removed from the apartment at approx. 9.15-30.

Enough time for an assault to take place, enough time for cadaver scent to materialise, enough time for a clean up, also verifies the tapas lot weren't checking the kids.

All just my opinion though. Just goes to show how many varying/wildly different theories there are on this story though hey!
60 minutes to 90 minutes to 'deep clean' the apartment, source then remove the cleaning materials/consumables, scrub up & get ready for the Tapas. Never mind any cover up planning.  Are you quite sure about that?   huh

Didn't Dr. Amaral say the apartment had been 'forensically cleaned' as in cleaned with a consciouness of removing forensic evidence. So thorough was this cleaning that no traces remained of the missing child; her father had to be sent back to the UK to find a DNA sample of hers.

This took more than a couple of hours and more than one person to accomplish; besides which, with everyone pretty much accounted for that evening prior to the alarm being raised there simply was no opportunity to do it that night.

whodunit

Posts : 467
Reputation : 443
Join date : 2015-02-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Guest on 23.10.15 17:50

@Stuey-Brown wrote:I think mr wilkins inadvertantly got himself into a mess. He was truthful at the beginning but was told or pressured to change his mind a bit.

I know mr wilkins from a while back and thats as much as i know.

Would you expand on "inadvertently got himself into a mess"?

Are you saying that Jez Wilkins is a liar?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Stuey-Brown on 23.10.15 18:04

Not at all. I was saying he was forced to make changes later on.

Nothing else to add

Stuey-Brown

Posts : 7
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2015-10-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Ray_Sneek on 24.10.15 19:19

whodunit has taken up the theme of Hobnob who is surely right to suggest there was not enough time to concoct an abduction plan, forensically clean the room, and arrange to hide the body etc.

I cannot get my head around the theory of pennylane that Gerry McCann would panic and walk with his newly-dead child through the streets of Praia da Luz, and anyway, where could he possibly find to hide a body, if his daughter had just died 2-3 hours before. Sorry pennylane, I can't see how this theory makes any sense. Where I do agree with you though is that there is some evidence of a 'commotion' before 10.00pm, some say as early as 9.30pm. Maybe Kate McCann did not run screaming down the lane yelling 'They've taken her', 'They've taken her'. The evidence for that is pretty weak I think?

I cannot fathom what guest12345's theory is. It sounds like he agrees with the Op Grange theory that a burglar murdered Maddie sometime that evening. That's even more unlikely than pennylane's theory.

But can we get back to discussing what HideHo has said, which is what started off this discussion.

HideHo says there is no credible evidence that Madeleine was seen by anyone from Monday onwards.

Would those who think Maddie was alive until about 7pm on 3rd May please point me to the hard evidence that she was alive any time from say Monday morning onwards?

____________________
These two e-fits are the centre of our focus - DCI Redwood 

Ray_Sneek

Posts : 28
Reputation : 23
Join date : 2015-09-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by plebgate on 24.10.15 20:27

@Stuey-Brown wrote:Not at all. I was saying he was forced to make changes later on.

Nothing else to add
Sorry stuey-brown but are you saying you know for sure that he was forced to make changes or that you just believe this to be the case.
How can you possibly know for sure unless you heard it from the horses mouth so to speak.   If you did, have you reported it to the police?

plebgate

Posts : 5560
Reputation : 1296
Join date : 2013-02-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 24.10.15 20:39

@plebgate wrote:
@Stuey-Brown wrote:Not at all. I was saying he was forced to make changes later on.

Nothing else to add
Sorry stuey-brown but are you saying you know for sure that he was forced to make changes or that you just believe this to be the case.
How can you possibly know for sure unless you heard it from the horses mouth so to speak.   If you did, have you reported it to the police?

Disregard Stuey-Brown, this was our resident troll, aka Andrew from MMM, who has now been reported to the police - see the Sonia Poulton thread.

____________________
I'm not saying Gerry McCann is obsessed with what comes out in the media but Kim Jong-un thinks he needs to lighten up a bit.


Get'emGonçalo


Posts : 7710
Reputation : 3244
Join date : 2009-11-25

View user profile http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by plebgate on 24.10.15 20:41

Thanks for info. GEG

plebgate

Posts : 5560
Reputation : 1296
Join date : 2013-02-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by Ayniia on 26.10.15 18:00

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:Lizzy Hideho Taylor
to
‎HiDeHo CONTROVERSY of Madeleine McCann
23 hrs ·



I CHALLENGE anyone to find a statement that could be considered PROOF that Madeleine was alive during the week... Was Madeleine seen after SUNDAY?

I did not come to the conclusion that something may have happened to her earlier in the week on a whim... I discovered some MAJOR discrepancies started happening on Tuesday and researched all the statements to try to pinpoint the day she was last seen... SUNDAY LUNCHTIME!

I have TWO VERY LONG threads collating some of the research. I don't 'guess' I worked hard to try to find ANYTHING that I considered proof... In 6 years or more, I have NEVER found anything...

Note: It doesn't mean she wasn't seen, but there is nothing to prove she was!

1) Title: People that saw Madeleine during the holiday
http://forum4.aimoo.com/madeleinemccanncontroversy/WELCOME-to-HDH-Controversy-Info/People-that-saw-Madeleine-during-the-holiday-1-2344234.html

2) Title: Did ANYONE see Madeleine during the holiday?
http://forum4.aimoo.com/madeleinemccanncontroversy/category/Did-ANYONE-see-Madeleine-during-the-holiday-1-2344239.html

https://www.facebook.com/groups/HiDeHoCONTROVERSYofMadeleineMcCann/permalink/527143374108823/

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11921-was-madeleine-seen-after-sunday-no-credible-evidence-that-she-was-new-article-by-hideho-26-sep-2015
---------------------

Courtesy of Tania Cadogan (Hobs)

Goncalo Amaral in 'The Truth of a Lie' thought that Madeleine died in an accident after 6pm on Thursday 3rd May. But HideHo and Hobs have recently advanced sound reasons for suggesting that something serious happened to her much earlier in the week. These two posts have attracted quite a lot of interest, so I'm opening up this big subject for discussion in the 'Debate' section.

Respectfully snipped by me.
I agree with Sunday being the day/night something happened. I think that maybe Madeleine fell while playing and bumped her head and her parents (doctors) dismissed it as something normal and then they went to have dinner leaving the children alone and then when they came back Madeleine was dead or gravely ill . I think it's common knowledge that when someone has a head injury they need to be checked by a doctor because of possible internal damages . So how could the Mccans explain why they didn't took their daughter to the hospital asap?

Concerning Mr. Amaral statement in the book that " Madeleine died after 6pm on Thursday 3rd May" I'll say it Again, Mr. Amaral was very cautious about what he wrote , the Mccans were threatening to sue and he said more than once that what he wrote was things that were in the files , so even if he thought otherwise , he could not say.
All just MOO of course.

____________________
"My advice to any British tourist ,please come to Portugal,please come to the Algarve but if you're coming as a family holiday treat it as a family holiday and do things together, don't leave the kids"
Words from an ExPat Algarve resident

Ayniia

Posts : 546
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2013-03-21
Location : Portugal

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: If Madeleine died, when did she die?

Post by j.rob on 26.10.15 20:19

@Stuey-Brown wrote:I think mr wilkins inadvertantly got himself into a mess. He was truthful at the beginning but was told or pressured to change his mind a bit.

I know mr wilkins from a while back and thats as much as i know.


Interesting.....because of course it is claimed that the first Jez Wilkins knew of the 'abduction' was when he was woken up by Matt and the OC resort manager in the early hours and - given that TM knew that Jez had allegedly bumped into Gerry outside apartment 5a at around 9.15pm - and asked if he had seen anything (anything suspicious presumably). Matt apparently replies: 'You're joking'. Which I originally assumed referred to the claim that Madeleine had been abducted. But then I came to wonder if it referred to the claim by Matt (in the company of OC resort manager) that Gerry had bumped into him (Jez) earlier in the evening. And Jez can't believe what he is hearing - that he has been landed in it big time as being in a key place at a key time and speaking to a key 'player' in the drama.

And of course it is on police record that, while he said nothing to police that night in the early hours, he went to the Portuguese police the next day and gave a statement. In which he stated that he saw a suspicious looking blonde 'rasta-man' in the Tapas bar the previous evening between 7.30pm and 8pm. This person is then apparently identified as a fellow guest at the hotel, a buddy of Gerry's and therefore is ruled out as a suspect. (I mean, WTF, does that mean that anyone staying at OC that week is above suspicion especially if they are friends with Gerry?! Unbelievable.)

What is of interest to me is that, a few days later after he has returned to the UK, Jez changes his account of where he was and what he was doing that fateful Thursday evening. His next police statement is in response to an URGENT fax from Detective Amaral and is a detailed account of that evening plus of how well he knows the McCanns and their movements that week in particular. In this statement he claims that he was not at the Tapas bar at all on Thursday evening but he dined in the apartment with his partner and children. But happened to leave for a period of time to push one of his children around in a pram as the child could not sleep. Which is how he happened to bump into Gerry.

Why change his account so dramatically in the space of a few days? As suggested above was he told or pressured to change his mind?

I still find it very difficult indeed to believe that this 9.15pm encounter, if it occurred at all, was 'just another coincidence'. Too many coincidences in this case.

j.rob

Posts : 2243
Reputation : 231
Join date : 2014-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum