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Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.10.15 0:02

@whatsupdoc wrote:How many of the group saw Madeleine arriving ? They must know if a different girl was masquerading as Madeleine all week.
The Lobsters Group was just 7 children, and not all came for every session.

The sole nanny was Catriona ('Cat') Baker.

The Lobster crèche sheets are chaotic, and don't even match what Kate says in her book.

There are strong indications that Jon Corner and his daughter Chloe already knew Cat Baker before 2007 - and that Cat Baker might also have known the McCanns before 2007. 

Here is Cat Baker enjoying a weekend with the McCanns in Rothley in November 2007 - just before the Panorama programme:



Suppose something did happen to Madeleine on the Sunday? - it would not have been the hardest thing in the world for Cat Baker to have forged these creche records

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                            "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?" - Amelie, May 2007 -  "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?"


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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by joyce1938 on 08.10.15 10:49

Surely the Tapas 7 would not get involved in such a cover up from the first day of arrival in Luz.  It's hard to imagine doing such at a sudden accident, but we have sort of discussed that.  I think this can get to be far too complicated, so many ideas and still we can't put a finger on it. I still think we may get a shock when we do have truth and how easy it would have been for a bad accident to have occurred. Yes, its strange that it would need a cover up, and that reason we still do not know.  joyce1938

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by pennylane on 08.10.15 12:01

@joyce1938 wrote:Surely the Tapas 7  would not get envolved in such a cover up from the first day of arrival in Luz.  Its hard to imagine doing such, at a sudden accident ,but we have sort of discussed that. I think this can get to be far too complicated,so many ideas ,and still we cant put a finger on it. I still think we may get a shock when we do have truth and how easy it would have been for a bad accident to have occurred. Yes its strange that it would need a cover up ,and that reason we still do not know . joyce 1938

We think alike, joyce!

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by joyce1938 on 08.10.15 12:30

Thanks for your reply pennylane. The main topic here for now seems to be what people have made up their minds about Sonia.  I just don't know and will await to see results.  The nastiness on here today I am really surprised about.  Why can't we all just wait and see? Is it because there is so little to keep people logging in these days?  I know it's hard to realize, we still have no idea where poor child is, we may never get the ending we require to complete this case.  Meanwhile don't lets turn on each other in anger.  Just my personal thoughts, after reading today. joyce1938

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Verdi on 08.10.15 12:35

Over past months and years I've observed a faction bubbling in the shadows whose inflexible outlook on this case doesn't extend beyond three pillars of faith, 'neglect - tragic accident - self preservation'.  When asked questions that might rock this rigid mindset the stock reply in relation to MBM's presence at the Ocean Club between 29th April and 3rd May has always been cast aside by the myriad of witnesses who have confirmed seeing MBM during the week.

So who are these witnesses that attest to seeing MBM?  Tapas staff who see comings and goings of scores of tourists during the holiday season, who in fairness, have their work to do which doesn't inlcude watching the movements of any particular family?  A cook who takes time out for a breather and happens to recognize a strangers child that's she never seen in her life before?  A fellow tourist who sees all little girls as blond, pink and pretty?  A cleaner who sees a family walking down the street in the distance?  A nanny who went with sammy snake to the beach but can't remember seeing Madeleine?  The beach sports animateurs the tennis court staff?  Crèche workers - one of which was personally responsible for the Lobster Club allegedly attended by MBM who was so devastated by the disappearance of a strangers child that she couldn't eat or sleep and had to be swiftly transfered to another far off resort?  The same nanny who has since met up with the McCanns at their home in the UK - by invitation?  Or the other key nanny player who changed her story so many times no one could take her seriously?

Ah but then - the Tapas group of friends, they can bear witness to MBM being alive and well right up to lunchtime on 3rd May - or was it 4.00pm - no it was 5.30pm - what about D Payne who saw her at 6.00pm?  No that was before err that was err, now let me see hmmm it was about 7.00pm - oh this is so difficult, it was a year ago I can't remember what I said before - let's say for the sake of accuracy somewhere between 5.00 and 7.30 pm.  Add that lot to the mix with of ever evolving variations of story line spewed forth by the parents it doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it?

There is only one answer to this inflexible theory, if I may borrow the words of Gerry McCann, evidence - evidence - evidence and that is the problem,  no evidence to support the argument.  No evidence of neglect - no evidence of tragic accident - no reliable witness statement - no reliable photographic evidence - no reliable Ocean Club records - nothing whatsoever to even indicate let alone prove that a living MBM was around that whole week in April/May 2007.   

Then you will hear the purveyors of wisdom say - 'but even your hero Amaral thinks the same' (must be remembered that the people I refer to are self-proclaimed McCann sceptics).  When you point out that Dr. Amaral had only the aforementioned evidence to proceed with an investigation, which was largely compromised by the Tapas group, other personages and external influence, then the nonsensical accusations of conspiracy theorist and insults start to fly  - I've even been accused of being a troll (don't you just love that all encompassing word?) for trying to explain what I think to be glaringly obvious.  Words like the Ambassador was only doing his job - that's what they're there for - wrong for a start, this level of diplomatic concern is confined to consular assistance - not a speedy visit by an Ambassador!  That is a fact not a conspiracy theory and but one example but I digress.

The three pillars of faith are built on nothing but sand.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by pennylane on 08.10.15 12:54

@joyce1938 wrote:Thanks for your reply penylane . the main topic here for now seems to be what people have made up their minds about Sonia . I just don't know and will await to see results . the nastiness on here today I am really surprised about . Why cant we all just waite and see ? Is it because there is so little to keep people logging in these days ? I know its hard to realize ,we still have no idea where poor child is ,we may never get the ending we require to complete this case . Meanwhile don't lets turn on each other in anger.  just my personal thoughts ,after reading today .joyce1938
I totally agree, Joyce.   What a refreshing voice of reason!

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by whodunit on 09.10.15 19:40

This evidence is completely compatible with the Internet Archive/WBM evidence but for some reason and without even knowing what the heck she was talking about, HideHo was the first one out of the gate in launching the debunking crusade.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Joannep43 on 12.10.15 21:27

In my opinion HiDeHos comprehensive research is of paramount importance to this case and makes complete sense.I too have thought for a while that something happened earlier to Madeleiene.This is ground breaking in the sense that she has stumbled across this and yet no one is able to counteract her challenge and prove her wrong.Im grateful that she has the time and resources at hand to investigate this.It should not be forgotten that Amarals theory was based upon evidence and testimonies available at that time.HiDeHos research has been collated from many years of information.The PJ worked with what was given and also with interference etc from many sources.
For me her research brings more questions to mind.
1, Is there any evidence Madeleine was at the ocean club ? The reasons I ask,lack of DNA in the apartment.Very few photos of Madeleine on the holiday.Tapas statements where most distance themselves from admitting to seeing much of Madeleine.Madeleine being described as lively,intelligent,talkative etc but no accounts or quotes of any sentences she had spoken on the holiday from the Tapas Group.
2,I then think of the countless times the McCanns use distancing language when referring to Madeleine.I then wonder who released the airport bus video to YouTube and the video of Madeleiene climbing the aeroplane steps.Im now wondering was this done on purpose to indoctrinate us to believe that Yes she flew to PDL and Yes she landed?
3,I'm now putting on my tinfoil hat and false flag event is coming to mind.Im now embarking into conspiraloon territory but I'm being serious.No other case has received so much worldwide media attention in recent memory.Was this a government arranged False Flag event to distract the masses from something going on in the world ?
4,Then I come back to reality and remember Eddie and Keela ,and I've taken of my tinfoil hat.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by MrsHyde on 12.10.15 22:01

@Verdi wrote:Over past months and years I've observed a faction bubbling in the shadows whose inflexible outlook on this case doesn't extend beyond three pillars of faith, 'neglect - tragic accident - self preservation'.  When asked questions that might rock this rigid mindset the stock reply in relation to MBM's presence at the Ocean Club between 29th April and 3rd May has always been cast aside by the myriad of witnesses who have confirmed seeing MBM during the week.

Of course, these witnesses might have confused Maddie with some other kid, that is always a probability. Of course, it is highly probable that at least some of them might get an "incentive" from the McCanns to say that they saw Maddie. But assuming that all of them, all these people must be wrong? That's too much for me, and not enough logic applied. Especially dismissing these Millenium staff statements bothers me the most, because the McCanns could have a very good reason to lie about their eating habits - the buggy, that can be very helpful when one needs to remove the child's body from their apartment.

A weak point in the "Maddie died on sunday" theory is that pretending for five days she was alive was incredibly risky. There were only seven kids in Maddie's group in creche, do you really think they wouldn't notice her absence? Basing the cover up plan on their silence would be madness, there was no certainity that they would colaborate. What with other guests and staff in the resort, who already saw Mccanns with three children? Were the McCanns haul with them all the time a kid borrowed from their friends? Incredibly risky.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Verdi on 12.10.15 23:08

@MrsHyde wrote:
@Verdi wrote:Over past months and years I've observed a faction bubbling in the shadows whose inflexible outlook on this case doesn't extend beyond three pillars of faith, 'neglect - tragic accident - self preservation'.  When asked questions that might rock this rigid mindset the stock reply in relation to MBM's presence at the Ocean Club between 29th April and 3rd May has always been cast aside by the myriad of witnesses who have confirmed seeing MBM during the week.

Of course, these witnesses might have confused Maddie with some other kid, that is always a probability. Of course, it is highly probable that at least some of them might get an "incentive" from the McCanns to say that they saw Maddie. But assuming that all of them, all these people must be wrong? That's too much for me, and not enough logic applied. Especially dismissing  these Millenium staff statements bothers me the most, because the McCanns could have a very good reason to lie about their eating habits - the buggy, that can be very helpful when one needs to remove the child's body from their apartment.

1.  That's just my point - who are all these people that claim to have seen MBM alive and well throughout their very short stay at the Ocean Club?
2.  I'm sorry I don't understand who or what you are talking about.

 
A weak point in the "Maddie died on sunday" theory is that pretending for five days she was alive was incredibly risky. There were only seven kids in Maddie's group in creche, do you really think they wouldn't notice her absence? Basing the cover up plan on their silence would be madness, there was no certainity that they would colaborate. What with other guests and staff in the resort, who already saw Mccanns with three children? Were the McCanns haul with them all the time a kid borrowed from their friends? Incredibly risky.

You talk as if the entire Ocean Club complex staff and guests are colluding with a 'pact of silence'.  The group were only there for five full days before KM shouted 'abduction!'  If you have any experience of interaction between a holiday resort staff and the guests, you will know that inter-personal acquaintances are rare indeed - outside of those on the look-out for a bit of howz yer father.  Be fair, the staff are only doing a job, can't expect them to notice the movements of the guests.  From the point of view of people telling porkies about seeing MBM during that week, the list is confined to but few - primarily the crèche workers - specifically Catriona Baker who visited the McCann domicile in the UK only six months after Madeleine's disappearance and the notorious fantasist Charlotte Pennington.  There is even a cloud hanging over another crèche worker, Amy Tierney, said to have been involved with production of Madeleine images to assist the investigation but I'll leave that in abeyance as it could be but rumour.

The question that needs to be asked is if these young women were known to the McCanns or any of their friends/relations/contacts, prior to the Portuguese holiday in May 2007. It would also be interesting to know what tales Pamela Fenn could have told about the family's movements - alas, that is not now an option.   

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by ROSA on 13.10.15 2:58

They would not be bothered if she was absent from crèche or not, its a busy holiday resort, kids would attend crèche randomly, the staff are not sleuths.  In reality it is none of their business, they are simply there to do their job.

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For Paulo Sargento, the thesis that Gonçalo Amaral revealed at first hand to "SP" that the blanket could have been used in a funeral ceremony at the Luz chapel "is very interesting".
 
And he adds: "In reality, when the McCanns went to Oprah's Show, the blanket was mentioned. At a given moment, when Oprah tells Kate that she heard her mention a blanket several times, Kate argued that a mother who misses a child always wants to know if she is comfortable, if she is warm, and added, referring to Maddie, that sometimes she asked herself if the person who had taken her would cover her up with her little blanket (but the blanket was on the bed after Maddie, supposedly, disappeared!!!).

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by joyce1938 on 13.10.15 10:30

I doubt if we could put much on the creche sheets being totally correct.  As you have said, it makes no sense to what they were actually doing.  Don't think for a minute that the nannies worried about that part of job, didn't expect to have to prove anything unless something odd were to occur, I don't believe they thought that for one minute.  A shock to them when so many questions arose.  joyce1938

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Versailles on 13.10.15 18:55

But if Fatima saw Madeleine, and Fatima is credible, then..?
I just dont understand the premise of the question.

So you think she is mis remembers? But then she would not be credible.

There is some rethoric here, that I fail to understand.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by sammi1967 on 13.10.15 20:29

Just wondering if any research has been done concerning the people who claim to have seen M that week and what known links that they may have with NI?

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by HiDeHo on 17.10.15 16:50

I apologise for having neglected this thread for a while, but other important things to help in getting the truth out has taken my time  (eg vids that are being viewed 9,000 times a day (4 1/4 Million views overall) smilie



Anyway, reading back I was confused about the comment made about me regarding WBM, but whatever anyone's opinion of myself or my agenda it is to post the truth regardless of where it takes me.

My basic hypothesis is not an effort to decide how it all happened but to place my info out there for each person to decide on how they interpret it.

Basically, I studied all the statements and made comparisons which resulted in many discrepancies.  I did not focus on memory issues, only on contradictions and oddities that appear to be closer to lies and contradictions than just mere forgetfulness.

After compiling the timeline of discrepancies I could see they started  Tuesday (some people say before)

Using that information I ask the question WHY would discrepancies start on Tuesday?

Was there SOMETHING that happened before that needed to be covered up?

With reasonable knowledge there was no abduction, could those discrepancies be in place because something had happened to Madeleine at that point?

To support the possibility that it MAY be because something had happened to Madeleine I then decided to see if we have proof of Madeleine being seen during the week and if so, then it would either debunk the possibility that something may have happened to Madeleine before Tuesday or to support that possibility.

I had NO idea when I started researching the statements what I would find... BUT, I could not find ONE (apart from Fatima) that was what I considered 'proof' of having been seen.

I was surprised, but not surprised if you know what I mean because I firmly believe those discrepancies WERE to hide something...

So I dont have a theory as to what happened or why.  Only that I can show everyone the results of my research and will willingly accept any challenge to show my research is wrong because I do not want to protect my opinions/thoughts etc.  I ONLY want the truth.

Discrepancies (MAJOR) started on Tuesday...

I could only find ONE statement to 'prove' specifically that Madeleine was seen during the week at lunchtime on Sunday...

It is for everyone to show me how I am incorrect or explain why this is so...

It's  just about 'facts' as discovered in the files.  No theory.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by whodunit on 17.10.15 17:03

@MrsHyde wrote:
@Verdi wrote:Over past months and years I've observed a faction bubbling in the shadows whose inflexible outlook on this case doesn't extend beyond three pillars of faith, 'neglect - tragic accident - self preservation'.  When asked questions that might rock this rigid mindset the stock reply in relation to MBM's presence at the Ocean Club between 29th April and 3rd May has always been cast aside by the myriad of witnesses who have confirmed seeing MBM during the week.

Of course, these witnesses might have confused Maddie with some other kid, that is always a probability. Of course, it is highly probable that at least some of them might get an "incentive" from the McCanns to say that they saw Maddie. But assuming that all of them, all these people must be wrong? That's too much for me, and not enough logic applied. Especially dismissing  these Millenium staff statements bothers me the most, because the McCanns could have a very good reason to lie about their eating habits - the buggy, that can be very helpful when one needs to remove the child's body from their apartment.

A weak point in the "Maddie died on sunday" theory is that pretending for five days she was alive was incredibly risky. There were only seven kids in Maddie's group in creche, do you really think they wouldn't notice her absence? Basing the cover up plan on their silence would be madness, there was no certainity that they would colaborate. What with other guests and staff in the resort, who already saw Mccanns with three children? Were the McCanns haul with them all the time a kid borrowed from their friends? Incredibly risky.

Riskier than what, is the question. If they needed time, time to establish alibis, time to rid the environment of evidence, time to put distance between themselves and 'the event' then using a replacement 'Maddie' for a few days in a strange place where nobody knew them is certainly less of a risk than the alternative. [meaning sounding the alarm immediately and risking evidence of 'the event' being found]

Who was going to question young children? AFAIK the cops never asked the little ones were about MBM.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by HiDeHo on 17.10.15 17:36

My reason for popping back here today was originally to add this post which, as it happens, may be on topic with the current discussions..

I created some graphics after putting together some descriptions of Madeleine's personality and was interested to note that the OC staff described a very different child to what many understand Madeleine's personality to be.

It may also answer the question as to was there a 'substitute' child and the suggested conspiracy theory that it suggests, which is often offputting to some.

Firstly, I do not necessarily believe the creche records were forged by staff... and if they were it would have been more to do with the Whistleblower BBC program that had happened three weeks before regarding Mark Warner creche in Greece (or Egypt)

The creche records would have been taken by the PJ before any of them had any idea that they would be involved in the case.

As far as everyone knew in those first few days it was an 'abduction' from the apartment so any filling in of the creche sheets would like have been only to do with their credibitly.

Unlike the school requirement of checking each child is present every morning, the children were arriving randomly throughout the day and the records were probably only used to have a telephone contact number.

HOWEVER, they MAY tell us something about how the following may have happened....

Did everyone remember Ella and not Madeleine? Three months younger than Madeleine and with a similar appearance.

Jane Tanner describes Ella this way...

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
4078 “And how would you describe Madeleine?”
Reply “Very, she was very lively, a very lively, happy, a happy little girl really. Because, probably a bit of, we were almost a bit worried how Ella and Madeleine would get on, because Ella’s quite shy and sensitive and Madeleine’s very, erm, I don’t know whether you can call a child vivacious, but, you know, sort of very, erm, outgoing and. But, I mean, they did, they got on and they had a whale of a time. But, yeah, very, very lively, chatty, a chatty little girl. I mean, to be honest, I know Madeleine probably less well than I know Kate and Gerry, because often, with Kate and Gerry, we saw them, it was like at fortieth birthday parties and that sort of thing. So, Madeleine herself, I wouldn’t say as, I didn’t know her as a little girl, whereas, you know, the other children, Millie and the other ones, you know, I saw very regularly”.
4078 “So your impressions of Madeleine is that she is confident, happy?”
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “Intelligent?”
Reply “Yeah, very, yeah, you know, very”.
4078 “And is there anything about her that would make her stand out from the rest of the children in that group?”
Reply “I think just the fact she is very outgoing, you know. As I say, Ella, in her nature, is a bit more, you know, quiet and, erm, a bit more probably reserved. Well, again, I don’t know whether you’d call a child reserved, but more, you know, not quite so”.
4078 “Hangs back and sees what is going on?”
Reply “Yeah, she’s, yeah,
whereas, I think Madeleine would be, she would always be in the centre, anything that was going on she would be, I don’t mean to say the ring-leader, but she would be at the centre of it, so”.
4078 “I don’t want to put words in your mouth and I don’t want to ask inappropriate questions either”.
Reply “No, just ask”.
4078 “How you described Madeleine, up to what point was she sort of the leader, if you like, was she verging on the, because some children can be downright annoying”.
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “When they’re over confident?”
Reply “No, again, I think this is what I was almost wondering, whether, with Ella being sort of the stand-back type, whether, but, no, she wasn’t like that at all, she was just”.
4078 “In a nice way?”
Reply “Just happy. In a nice way, yeah. No, she wasn’t, erm, she wasn’t a brat, no, I mean, that’s you could describe, she wasn’t, no, bratty or sort of, I can’t remember the word I’m trying to look for, precocious”.
4078 “Yeah”.
Reply “No, she was just very, and she was obviously, you know, they were enjoying themselves, they were running around screaming, you know, sort of chasing them round the play area, you know. That’s my main memory of Madeleine from the holiday, is in the play area, you know, we were sort of chasing them around and, you know, just being, just running around, quite happy”.
4078 “Just fun?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.

..Ella is shy and reserved and Madeleine is vivacious...

Could the staff be remembering Ella when they made these comments (or mentioned about seeing her)











Take into consideration that the creche records have days that Madeleine was signed in and Ella was signed out (and vice versa)

I personally don't believe anyone was necessarily monitoring the registrations and they were just available for everyone to sign...

I have more thoughts on the records but for now that it for this post :)0000



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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by HiDeHo on 17.10.15 18:09

Just to explain what I mean about Ella and Madeleine being signed in and out...

If you look at Tuesday lunchtime... Gerry and Russell (and Jez) walked together to pick the children up.

Only Madeleine is signed out (even though Russell was with him...

Tuesday afternoon...after the McCanns supposedly took the children to the beach and wandered back arrived to book Madeleine in at exactly the same time as CAT claimed Ella arrived (added later?) and yet ONLY Ella was signed out.

I have no idea if this indicates anything, but it DOES allow for the possibility of only one child to have been there at that time...

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Tony Bennett on 17.10.15 18:53

@HiDeHo wrote:Firstly, I do not necessarily believe the creche records were forged by staff...The creche records would have been taken by the PJ before any of them had any idea that they would be involved in the case.
There is a very obvious flaw in your argument at this point.

You have suggested that 'something happened' to Madeleine on the Sunday/Monday.

If that's correct, those involved (if they had the opportunity) would have had 3 or 4 days in which to forge the records. if they wished/needed to.

All it would need is the co-operation of Cat Baker, who seems to have had particularly close relationship to the McCanns - and may even have known them before the holiday.

From Monday onwards, she, as the only nanny who ran the 'Lobsters' group, would have had plenty of opportunity to ensure that Madeleine's name was added every session

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                            "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?" - Amelie, May 2007 -  "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?"


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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Verdi on 17.10.15 19:40

I can't see the need to fabricate MBM's existence by a substitute.  The crèche facility is not obligatory, it's entirely up to the parent/guardian of any one child whether they are placed in  child care - could be for an hour here and there, half a day, a full day.  Under normal circumstances I doubt if the crèche workers pay much attention to who is there, why and when - why should they.  Surely their function is only to entertain the children whilst in the various clubs, other than that they have no responsibility for any one child's welfare nor whereabouts.

I CAN however see the need to simulate a scenario to suggest that MBM was alive and well up to 10:00 pm on Thursday 3rd May, if as many pointers suggest, she disappeared prior to that date and time.  A substitute child would not be necessary, this is a tourist resort with hundreds of guests passing through each season, no one could ask or expect the staff to be familiar with the appearance of every man woman and child.  Indeed, a substitute child would make things more complicated I think.  Far simpler to enlist the assistance of willing appendages with a vested interest and introduce a few less conspicuous indications of a live MBM, like the date and time of a photograph and a few maybes that can't be proven one way or the other.

My other thought on the subject is the constant reliance on the testimonies of the McCanns and their group of friends.  I for one find it difficult to believe a word they have every spoken - their account of the time spent at the Ocean Club is no exception..

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by whodunit on 17.10.15 19:55

@Verdi wrote:I can't see the need to fabricate MBM's existence by a substitute.  The crèche facility is not obligatory, it's entirely up to the parent/guardian of any one child whether they are placed in  child care - could be for an hour here and there, half a day, a full day.  Under normal circumstances I doubt if the crèche workers pay much attention to who is there, why and when - why should they.  Surely their function is only to entertain the children whilst in the various clubs, other than that they have no responsibility for any one child's welfare nor whereabouts.

I CAN however see the need to simulate a scenario to suggest that MBM was alive and well up to 10:00 pm on Thursday 3rd May, if as many pointers suggest, she disappeared prior to that date and time.  A substitute child would not be necessary, this is a tourist resort with hundreds of guests passing through each season, no one could ask or expect the staff to be familiar with the appearance of every man woman and child.  Indeed, a substitute child would make things more complicated I think.  Far simpler to enlist the assistance of willing appendages with a vested interest and introduce a few less conspicuous indications of a live MBM, like the date and time of a photograph and a few maybes that can't be proven one way or the other.

My other thought on the subject is the constant reliance on the testimonies of the McCanns and their group of friends.  I for one find it difficult to believe a word they have every spoken - their account of the time spent at the Ocean Club is no exception..

The only reason to fabricate her appearance at creche--which it seems to me did happen---was to provide positive documentary evidence outside of group testimony that MBM was still living after Sunday/Monday. Her attendance at creche and documentary evidence thereof, spurious though it may be, is a crucial part of the alibi since, as we've seen, eyewitness testimony OUTSIDE the group is thin gruel indeed.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by HiDeHo on 17.10.15 20:09

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:Firstly, I do not necessarily believe the creche records were forged by staff...The creche records would have been taken by the PJ before any of them had any idea that they would be involved in the case.
There is a very obvious flaw in your argument at this point.

You have suggested that 'something happened' to Madeleine on the Sunday/Monday.

If that's correct, those involved (if they had the opportunity) would have had 3 or 4 days in which to forge the records. if they wished/needed to.

All it would need is the co-operation of Cat Baker, who seems to have had particularly close relationship to the McCanns - and may even have known them before the holiday.

From Monday onwards, she, as the only nanny who ran the 'Lobsters' group, would have had plenty of opportunity to ensure that Madeleine's name was added every session

Maybe I should not have used the word 'forged'.  'Changed or added to is what I should have said.

For the record, I do not think Catriona was 'involved'  during that week.

My thoughts are that like all the other nannies they had the children every day, some of them arriving at random times and although I imagine as well looked after as they were able, it was so early in the season that I doubt strict rules were in place that first week. (I believe?)

Catriona was in a large room with other nannies.  Were all the children kept separate or did the children participate in games throughout the room?  We don't know the exact details of the creche and sharing the activities with the Sharks.

What I believe happened is that IF Madeleine was only there for the first day or two, she would have possibly not been missed by Catriona, remembering they supposedly had activities in areas outside of the creche room and children may have been randomly dropped off without the creche sheet available.  We just don't know.

If she is anything like myself, she may not have been able to pinpoint which child was which when asked retrospectively.

Maybe she did, BUT when the abduction happened and she realised that this was one of her charges in the creche, and was 'remnded' that Madeleine was at the creche that day, then would she turn around and say 'No... I don't remember her being there'?  Would she have second guessed herself?

She had maybe seen Madeleine a couple of times at the beginning of the week but the father and mother of the 'abducted' child SAID Madeleine was there...  No way could Catriona have disputed that and probably second guessed herself.

In the first statements she was vague about Madeleine and didnt give a lot of info.

Other nannies didn't remember seeing Maddie in places she was supposed to have been...

Catriona would have had no choice in my opinion but to second guess her memory, and just follow with what everyone was claiming.

At that point it didn't really matter as Madeleine had been taken from the apartment and not the creche, but it started to become an issue when the parents were thought to be involved, and the nannies were sent away to another Mark Warners.

Catriona suffered a lot at this point as she mentioned to a friend.  Could this have been attributed to her realisation that she didn't remember seeing Maddie that day  (but had been intimidated to believe she had?)

Of course we don't know...and then we had the visit to Rothley...where she may have been 'reminded' about what happened...

Intimidation can be very scary for a young girl...

I do not believe that Catriona is guilty of anything more than being possibly 'manipulated'.

Sorry if that does not fit with some people's thoughts....but it's mine...

Like most of the T7 she was in the wrong place at the wrong time....

Whether guilty of not speaking up afterwards IF my thoughts are correct is another matter, but she was protected by the McCanns from revealing her location and I am happy to report that from what I understand she seems to have a happy life.

She did not ask to be there at that time.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Verdi on 17.10.15 21:37

@whodunit wrote:
@Verdi wrote:I can't see the need to fabricate MBM's existence by a substitute.  The crèche facility is not obligatory, it's entirely up to the parent/guardian of any one child whether they are placed in  child care - could be for an hour here and there, half a day, a full day.  Under normal circumstances I doubt if the crèche workers pay much attention to who is there, why and when - why should they.  Surely their function is only to entertain the children whilst in the various clubs, other than that they have no responsibility for any one child's welfare nor whereabouts.

I CAN however see the need to simulate a scenario to suggest that MBM was alive and well up to 10:00 pm on Thursday 3rd May, if as many pointers suggest, she disappeared prior to that date and time.  A substitute child would not be necessary, this is a tourist resort with hundreds of guests passing through each season, no one could ask or expect the staff to be familiar with the appearance of every man woman and child.  Indeed, a substitute child would make things more complicated I think.  Far simpler to enlist the assistance of willing appendages with a vested interest and introduce a few less conspicuous indications of a live MBM, like the date and time of a photograph and a few maybes that can't be proven one way or the other.

My other thought on the subject is the constant reliance on the testimonies of the McCanns and their group of friends.  I for one find it difficult to believe a word they have every spoken - their account of the time spent at the Ocean Club is no exception..

The only reason to fabricate her appearance at creche--which it seems to me did happen---was to provide positive documentary evidence outside of group testimony that MBM was still living after Sunday/Monday. Her attendance at creche and documentary evidence thereof, spurious though it may be, is a crucial part of the alibi since, as we've seen, eyewitness testimony OUTSIDE the group is thin gruel indeed.
So enter the crèche register.  No need that I can see for a substitute child - if that's what you're saying.  Not entirely sure what you mean by "positive documentary evidence".  I can however understand why you might have the words 'positive-documentary-evidence' on the brain  big grin !

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Tony Bennett on 17.10.15 22:19

@HiDeHo wrote:
For the record, I do not think Catriona was 'involved' during that week.

Catriona was in a large room with other nannies.  Were all the children kept separate or did the children participate in games throughout the room? We don't know the exact details of the creche and sharing the activities with the Sharks.

REPLY: My understanding is that in fact the 'Lobsters' group was in a separate room 

Maybe she did, BUT when the abduction happened and she realised that this was one of her charges in the creche, and was 'reminded' that Madeleine was at the creche that day, then would she turn around and say 'No... I don't remember her being there'?  Would she have second guessed herself?

She had maybe seen Madeleine a couple of times at the beginning of the week but the father and mother of the 'abducted' child SAID Madeleine was there... No way could Catriona have disputed that and probably second guessed herself. In the first statements she was vague about Madeleine and didn't give a lot of info. Catriona would have had no choice in my opinion but to second guess her memory, and just follow with what everyone was claiming.

Catriona suffered a lot at this point as she mentioned to a friend.  Could this have been attributed to her realisation that she didn't remember seeing Maddie that day  (but had been intimidated to believe she had?)

Intimidation can be very scary for a young girl...

I do not believe that Catriona is guilty of anything more than being possibly 'manipulated'.

REPLY: But you have strongly asserted - in a YouTube video you've made which has been seen by tens of thousands - that she actively LIED about having 'high tea' with Madeleine and the McCanns, an assertion based if I may so say on a very comprehensive analysis of all the contradictions about that alleged event.

That LIE was believed by Dr Goncalo Amaral and his team, who used it to allege that Madeleine died some time after 6pm on Thursday 3rd May.

According to your own OP, Madeleine was not there that day and so it is not a case of 'mis-remembering' but of actually LYING. In an investigation about the disappearance of a missing child.

And that's classed as 'perverting the course of justice' in our legal system.

Did she know the McCanns before May 2007?

Maybe. She was, in 2006 (and still is) FB friends with Chloe Corner, daughter of Madeleine's godfather, Jon Corner - who I think once said that he knew Praia da Luz well as he often visited there.  



  
   

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by whodunit on 18.10.15 16:41

@Verdi wrote:
@whodunit wrote:
@Verdi wrote:I can't see the need to fabricate MBM's existence by a substitute.  The crèche facility is not obligatory, it's entirely up to the parent/guardian of any one child whether they are placed in  child care - could be for an hour here and there, half a day, a full day.  Under normal circumstances I doubt if the crèche workers pay much attention to who is there, why and when - why should they.  Surely their function is only to entertain the children whilst in the various clubs, other than that they have no responsibility for any one child's welfare nor whereabouts.

I CAN however see the need to simulate a scenario to suggest that MBM was alive and well up to 10:00 pm on Thursday 3rd May, if as many pointers suggest, she disappeared prior to that date and time.  A substitute child would not be necessary, this is a tourist resort with hundreds of guests passing through each season, no one could ask or expect the staff to be familiar with the appearance of every man woman and child.  Indeed, a substitute child would make things more complicated I think.  Far simpler to enlist the assistance of willing appendages with a vested interest and introduce a few less conspicuous indications of a live MBM, like the date and time of a photograph and a few maybes that can't be proven one way or the other.

My other thought on the subject is the constant reliance on the testimonies of the McCanns and their group of friends.  I for one find it difficult to believe a word they have every spoken - their account of the time spent at the Ocean Club is no exception..

The only reason to fabricate her appearance at creche--which it seems to me did happen---was to provide positive documentary evidence outside of group testimony that MBM was still living after Sunday/Monday. Her attendance at creche and documentary evidence thereof, spurious though it may be, is a crucial part of the alibi since, as we've seen, eyewitness testimony OUTSIDE the group is thin gruel indeed.
So enter the crèche register.  No need that I can see for a substitute child - if that's what you're saying.  Not entirely sure what you mean by "positive documentary evidence".  I can however understand why you might have the words 'positive-documentary-evidence' on the brain  big grin !

Perhaps there was no need for a substitute child but it SEEMS there was one, nevertheless. I think they wouldn't want to take a chance of getting caught registering NO CHILD at creche. Wrong, look-alike child is better than none.

LOL! Positive documentary evidence just means, to me, documents the cops wouldn't necessarily question unless there was something glaringly 'off' about them. It's taken many years to sort out the anomalies of the creche recores. Seems the PJ just took them at face value.

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