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Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by j.rob on 18.10.15 19:59

@Joannep43 wrote:In my opinion HiDeHos comprehensive research is of paramount importance to this case and makes complete sense.I too have thought for a while that something happened earlier to Madeleiene.This is ground breaking in the sense that she has stumbled across this and yet no one is able to counteract her challenge and prove her wrong.Im grateful that she has the time and resources at hand to investigate this.It should not be forgotten that Amarals theory was based upon evidence and testimonies available at that time.HiDeHos research has been collated from many years of information.The PJ worked with what was given and also with interference etc from many sources.
For me her research brings more questions to mind.
1, Is there any evidence Madeleine  was at the ocean club ? The reasons I ask,lack of DNA in the apartment.Very few photos of Madeleine on the holiday.Tapas statements where most distance themselves from admitting to seeing much of Madeleine.Madeleine being described as lively,intelligent,talkative etc but no accounts or quotes of any sentences she had spoken on the holiday from the Tapas Group.
2,I then think of the countless times the McCanns use distancing language when referring to Madeleine.I then wonder who released  the airport bus video to YouTube and the video of Madeleiene climbing the aeroplane steps.Im now wondering was this done on purpose to indoctrinate us to believe that Yes she flew to PDL and Yes she landed?
3,I'm now putting on my tinfoil hat and  false flag event is coming to mind.Im now embarking into conspiraloon territory but I'm being serious.No other case has received so much worldwide media attention in recent memory.Was this a government arranged False Flag event to distract the masses from something going on in the world ?
4,Then I come back to reality and remember Eddie and Keela ,and I've taken of my tinfoil hat.
 
I think it is/was a false flag event designed to distract the sheeple from the really important things (Iraq). But then something went wrong and/or something untoward happened or possibly the plan was deliberately sabotaged by third parties which would account for the Mcs and Tapas making a complete bodge-job of their accounts of the alleged 'abduction'.

There are several different agendas going on, imo, which is why it seems so complicated.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by HiDeHo on 18.10.15 20:19

I have used the research on the last person to see Madeleine (to give an idea of whether she was around during the week) in conjunction with the discrepancies and inconsistencies throughout the week, as I feel once they started there was probably a reason to hide something...

According to sightings...Last credible sighting was SUNDAY Lunchtime

Discrepancies, denials and contradictions started on TUESDAY (or earlier)

Did something happen to Madeleine after Sunday and before Tuesday (hence a possible cover up?)

The week is RIDDLED with them and at a guess I would say approximately 15 on Thursday alone. Each one is important in itself but overall produces a picture of something MAJOR being hidden on Thursday.


Here is a SUMMARY of the list of people that claimed to have seen Madeleine and my comment as to why they cannot be used as PROOF she was seen (it does not prove she wasn't seen)

Before I move on to the discrepancies, please scroll down this summary and let me know if ANY of them (apart from Fatima) are credible and PROVE that Madeleine was seen!

This summary was done many years ago and there may be other comments that have not been added, but none were specific...I would welcome any Adjustments additions to any of this summary.

























































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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Tony Bennett on 19.10.15 7:58

@Joannep43 wrote:In my opinion HiDeHo's comprehensive research is of paramount importance to this case and makes complete sense. I too have thought for a while that something happened earlier to Madeleine. This is ground breaking in the sense that she has stumbled across this and yet no one is able to counteract her challenge and prove her wrong. I'm grateful that she has the time and resources at hand to investigate this. It should not be forgotten that Amaral's theory was based upon evidence and testimonies available at that time. HiDeHo's research has been collated from many years of information. The PJ worked with what was given and also with interference etc from many sources.
For me her research brings more questions to mind.
1, Is there any evidence Madeleine was at the Ocean Club? The reasons I ask, lack of DNA in the apartment. Very few photos of Madeleine on the holiday. Tapas statements where most distance themselves from admitting to seeing much of Madeleine. Madeleine being described as lively, intelligent, talkative etc., but no accounts or quotes of any sentences she had spoken on the holiday from the Tapas Group.
2. I then think of the countless times the McCanns use distancing language when referring to Madeleine. I then wonder who released the airport bus video to YouTube and the video of Madeleine climbing the aeroplane steps. I'm now wondering was this done on purpose to indoctrinate us to believe that Yes she flew to PDL and Yes she landed?
3. I'm now putting on my tinfoil hat and false flag event is coming to mind. I'm now embarking into conspiraloon territory but I'm being serious. No other case has received so much worldwide media attention in recent memory. Was this a government arranged False Flag event to distract the masses from something going on in the world?
4. Then I come back to reality and remember Eddie and Keela, and I've taken of my tinfoil hat.
Good post @ Joannep43 back on page 9 of this thread. thumbup

I would recommend every member here and every guest to carefully read and ponder HideHo's article which is unquestionably well-researched and well-thought-out.

I suggest it ought also to be read in conjunction with the thoughts of Hobs = Tania Cadogan, our resident  'statement analyst', here: http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11615-hobs-theory-what-i-believe-may-have-happened-to-maddie-mccann#318342. She reaches similar conclusions to those of HideHo, but by a different route. I noticed that two of our most perceptive members here, 'canada12' and 'Carry On Doctor', were quick to endorse Hobs' opinons.    

What @ joannep43 states above about Amaral not having access to all the information that we now have is spot on. That means, for example, that we must not regard as sacrosanct his view that Catriona Baker was telling the truth about the alleged 'high tea' at 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May.

Your final line @ joannep43 is a final answer to those who claim that Madeleine was never in Praia da Luz - of course she was - the 17 alerts of Eddie and Keela, and the McCanns' reactions to them, prove that beyond doubt.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by j.rob on 19.10.15 10:10

Agree excellent research. However I am not so sure about this:

Your final line @ joannep43 is a final answer to those who claim that Madeleine was never in Praia da Luz - of course she was - the 17 alerts of Eddie and Keela, and the McCanns' reactions to them, prove that beyond doubt.

The dog alerts are proof that a cadaver was present in apartment 5A and other locations at Ocean Club.

However they are not conclusive proof that this cadaver was necessarily that of Madeleine McCann. I am merely being devil's advocate here! I completely agree however that the McCanns' reactions to the dog alerts are highly incriminating. 

I am not claiming that Madeleine was never in Luz by the way. I am simply interested, as others are, in why there was no DNA from Madeleine in the apartment or in the kids' club or ANYWHERE in Ocean Club where she is supposed to have been that week until Thursday evening. 

Heck, Gerry even had to return to the UK to get an item with her DNA on it!

I mean, that is beyond weird. No DNA ANYWHERE!! This does not make sense. Even allowing for a massive clean-up job in apartment 5A why would there be none of her DNA in the kids' club, for instance? Or other places she visited at Ocean Club. 

Another thing that doesn't make sense is that during the early police searches in the immediate hours and days after Madeleine's alleged abduction the McCanns apparently gave the police an item that had Madeleine's scent on it for the sniffer dogs to try to follow a trail. 

Now, given the suspicious circumstances surrounding her disappearance, one has to wonder whether Madeleine McCanns' scent was indeed on this item. Or whether it was someone elses', perhaps, to deliberately 'put them off the scent' as it were.

But the point I am trying to make is that how come the McCanns were able to hand over an item with (allegedly!) Madeleine's scent on it - and therefore (allegedly) her DNA one assumes - but that subsequently they were unable to find anything with her DNA on it to the extent that Gerry had to return to the UK to get some DNA from their home?

Sorry but this it totally perplexing. The finding of Madeleine McCann's DNA in apartment 5A, or in the kids' club or in the Millennium or indeed anywhere at Ocean Club would be PROOF that Madeleine McCann was at Ocean Club that week. 

The photos are not proof because we don't know when they were taken, by whom they were taken and we don't know for sure that the child who is supposed to be Madeleine McCann is indeed Madeleine McCann. She looks different in a great many of the photos. 

The airport video is not concrete proof as we don't know for sure if that is indeed Madeleine Again, I am not saying it isn't her but we don't know for sure. It is odd, imo, that this footage was released presumably as 'proof' that Madeleine went on that holiday. A strange choice of holiday filming. No footage at all from the holiday. And the photos that were released by TM were mostly in black and white an very grainy and hard to see who is in the photos.

What the heck DID go on that week?

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by smoking_gun on 19.10.15 10:16

Whose cadaver scent was found in the trunk of the car the McCanns hired 3 weeks after Madeleine was reported missing that Eddie and Keela alerted to?

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by joyce1938 on 19.10.15 11:39

I am not sure I have read that the kids club and other places were tested for anyones dna ?? if the flat showed no dna at all .like the twins and parents , must have been total cleanup successfully carried out.      joyce1938

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by joyce1938 on 19.10.15 11:50

Just trying to recall a long conversation that went on a long time ago on another site , MCF.  It was spoken of in detail by some folk . The reason maybe  G was sent home to get pillowcase was to make certain it also matched the heel prick test from said child, these were done for many years born in hospital, and it did.  Some have wondered if the pillowcase was from Maddy's bed  but we can't know  for cerain if kids swapped beds, but the two already received matched.  Parapono may recall more than I.   joyce1938

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by comperedna on 19.10.15 11:57

My son is just leaving for a holiday with two year old and a four year old. Experience of this myself reminds me that young children rapidly litter any holiday accommodation up with used plastic mugs and attendant saliva infused milk residue, dribble and more dribble, pairs of damp pants from mini accidents, loads of worn clothes in a dirty clothes basket waiting to be put in the washer, favourite soft toys (well chewed and slobbered over) and all kinds of other juvenile gear. Mess plus DNA gets EVERYWHERE.

Something with Madeleine's DNA on it?  What about the pillow on Madeleine's bed in 5A?... the sheets even... Shoes would be ideal as they would be the wrong size for the twins to wear. MBM was said to have been stolen from her bed... ie barefoot, so shoes her would still be there. 

G's having to go back to Rothley for a pillow with M's DNA on is crazy. The flat should have been full of DNA which could be definitely be seen to be hers. The other family members DNA could easily be differentiated from it. M's toothbrush would have been ideal, as children do NOT share toothbrushes. Claiming that the McCann children did is NUTS.

Similarly, something with M's scent on for tracker dogs to follow: M's parents handing over a towel for that purpose is very rum indeed. Families DO share towels. The dog handlers should have been given an item of clothing Madeleine wore the day before she disappeared. 

Summat's madly amiss. Either the place was amazingly thoroughly cleaned, or the weird option (which I do not buy for obvious reasons) M was never in PDL, or at least in 5a at all.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Verdi on 19.10.15 12:09

@comperedna wrote:My son is just leaving for a holiday with two year old and a four year old. Experience of this myself reminds me that young children rapidly litter any holiday accommodation up with used plastic mugs and attendant saliva infused milk residue, dribble and more dribble, pairs of damp pants from mini accidents, loads of worn clothes in a dirty clothes basket waiting to be put in the washer, favourite soft toys (well chewed and slobbered over) and all kinds of other juvenile gear. Mess plus DNA gets EVERYWHERE.

Something with Madeleine's DNA on it?  What about the pillow on Madeleine's bed in 5A?... the sheets even... Shoes would be ideal as they would be the wrong size for the twins to wear. MBM was said to have been stolen from her bed... ie barefoot, so shoes her would still be there. 

G's having to go back to Rothley for a pillow with M's DNA on is crazy. The flat should have been full of DNA which could be definitely be seen to be hers. The other family members DNA could easily be differentiated from it. M's toothbrush would have been ideal, as children do NOT share toothbrushes. Claiming that the McCann children did is NUTS.

Similarly, something with M's scent on for tracker dogs to follow: M's parents handing over a towel for that purpose is very rum indeed. Families DO share towels. The dog handlers should have been given an item of clothing Madeleine wore the day before she disappeared. 

Summat's madly amiss. Either the place was amazingly thoroughly cleaned, or the weird option (which I do not buy for obvious reasons) M was never in PDL, or at least in 5a at all.
Totally totally agree thumbsup !

Argued this point so many times in the past with people who claim to be scientists (in what field I know not), their answer was always the requirement in any criminal investigation for a clean sample.  A clean sample collected from the UK by one of the prime suspects, no doubt stuffed in a back-pack with other dirty laundry, transported to Portugal?  I thought the police had very stringent rules as regards the collection of evidence for forensic analysis!

I can't add to what you have written.  Sometimes the simple explanation is preferable to confused false claims of technical expertise - is that where the expression 'to blind with science' comes from?

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Blinding with science - and 'doctoring'

Post by Tony Bennett on 19.10.15 12:25

@Verdi wrote:
Sometimes the simple explanation is preferable to confused false claims of technical expertise - is that where the expression 'to blind with science' comes from?
Or what about the origin of the expressed 'doctored'?   winkwink

The theory of evolution is another example of 'blinding people with science' - and a lot of doctoring goes on, like the faking of Piltdown Man and Ernst Haeckel's faked 'embryonic recapitulation' sketches. All done by so-called 'scientists'.

The same thing is happening with so-called 'man-made climate change'. They've got the science wrong: increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is the result of increased warmth, not the other way round - and 'scientists' like those at the Climate Change Research Unit at the University of East Anglia forge their data

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Verdi on 19.10.15 12:47

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
Sometimes the simple explanation is preferable to confused false claims of technical expertise - is that where the expression 'to blind with science' comes from?
Or what about the origin of the expressed 'doctored'?   winkwink

The theory of evolution is another example of 'blinding people with science' - and a lot of doctoring goes on, like the faking of Piltdown Man and Ernst Haeckel's faked 'embryonic recapitulation' sketches. All done by so-called 'scientists'.

The same thing is happening with so-called 'man-made climate change'. They've got the science wrong: increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is the result of increased warmth, not the other way round - and 'scientists' like those at the Climate Change Research Unit at the University of East Anglia forge their data
thumbsup  Far more appropriate smilie !

On a lighter note, so to speak, the meteo told me this morning to expect 10% chance of rain showers - so I did!  At present it's hissing down so hard visibility is down to nil and what is normally a road is now a raging torrent.

Better chance with Ye Olde Farmer's Almanac or a dollop of seaweed hanging from the eaves.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by j.rob on 19.10.15 15:11

Summat's madly amiss. Either the place was amazingly thoroughly cleaned, or the weird option (which I do not buy for obvious reasons) M was never in PDL, or at least in 5a at all.


--------




I think it is possible that she wasn't in apartment 5a or at least not for most of that week. Which of course begs the question of where she was that week. When did 'something' happen to her? Was she ever there at all? And as a poster has asked up-thread, if it wasn't Madeleine's dead body that left the scent of cadaver in the McCanns' hired Renault Scenic, then whose was it? And the same question could be asked of the other places where the sniffer dogs alerted to cadaver scent.  


But, to try to keep it simple, suppose Madeleine McCann was in Luz that week but something untoward happened early on in the week. I theorize that by Monday all hell was breaking loose. So that leaves Saturday afternoon and evening and Sunday all day and evening for 'something' to happen.


The McCanns and their friends told us that Madeleine woke up one night and cried. They have placed this event as happening later on in the week which, given how truthful they are (ahem) , suggests to me that it happened on a different night - perhaps Saturday or Sunday evening if you run with the theory of something happening by Monday. 


Of course it is possible that TM merely invented this incidence to give credence to the 'checking' story. This is certainly possible, but perhaps a bit odd as they seemed to be at pains to insist that the checking system was fine as the children rarely woke up and if they did it was not until the early hours when the parents would be back in the apartment.


It is also possible that this incident was invented to 'prove' that Madeleine was alive, well and full of beans on Thursday morning - and unfazed by having woken up and finding no parents there - when this was not the case. 


Another possibility is that this incident DID happen. The McCanns mention it not just for the reasons above but also because they want to provide a cover in case eye-witnesses heard the crying. And the FACT  that they have sanitized the incident. claiming that Madeleine was completely unfazed by it and merely mentioned it in passing (which is not credible - this is not what a nearly four year old would do) suggests to me that this is a highly sensitive area. This would also be consistent with lying - the incident that is important is mentioned but down-played and sanitized.

There is that incredibly incriminating early media interview when Kate gets visibly flustered and upset over this allegedly trivial crying incident. She makes it clear that she wishes she had shaken Madeleine by the shoulders to find out exactly what had upset her. She even mimics this with her hands while looking visibly upset. She then fans herself with her hands as if even thinking about what it might have been is deeply distressing to her. This is indeed one giant hot potato, imo. Difficult not to consider this consistent with a certain scenario. A scenario in which parents would simulate an abduction of a child to cover up what really happened. As indeed Detective Amaral has stated.


Kate's actions, words and behaviour during that early media interview is so incriminating. To my mind it is consistent with someone who simply cannot 'go there' psychologically. She suspects something but refuses to acknowledge or believe it because to do so would necessitate such a traumatic outcome, imo. The implications are too huge - especially factoring in that there are two year old twins to bring up.


During the interview Gerry looks on with a smug kind of naughty school-boy expression as if to say: 'What can you do?' Once again, his expression is worth a thousand words. He is unmoved by Kate's plight. Unrepentant, imo and not consistent with a man whose daughter has been allegedly stolen.


In later interviews the pair noticeably down-play this crying incident and Kate even gets snappy. when asked about it.


This suggests to me that Madeleine could have woken up either on Saturday or Sunday evening/night and was distressed. I theorize that Madeleine was not alone in apartment 5a with Sean (and Amelie) at the time this happened. The reason being that this is the version of events that the McCanns have given us. So it is likely to be deliberately deceptive and misleading, imo. 


Therefore I surmise that Madeleine could have been in another apartment (which could possibly account for the lack of DNA in apartment 5a) or in apartment  5a but that the twins were somewhere else. What or perhaps more pertinently WHO woke up Madeleine and what made her cry?


And Gerry has told us that "not being there at the time it happened" increased the chances of 'it happening'. 


We know from one of the Portuguese police interviews that the key to unravelling the mystery lies with the - was it ten or twelve? -  'elements that entered the apartment. Presumably 'elements' refers to people apart from the family who went into the apartment. Why would this number of other adults who are not parents or even family be going into the McCanns' apartment? during that week? Hmmm... 


Then factor in the episode of Madeleine was Here in which Gerry and Matt talk about Matt's alleged check at 8.30pm and Gerry is heard to say, with regard to his alleged final check on a peacefully sleeping Madeleine at 9pm, "it was the only time I put my head around the door (of the childrens' bedroom." Once again, I think this is minimizing and sanitizing of events and is hugely suspicious and incriminating. Why on earth would the father of three children who are being left alone in an apartment - allegedly - want to claim that he only once ever put his head around this children's bedroom door? Given that they are supposedly being left without a babysitter the very least you would expect the caring father to do would be to 'put his head around the door'. This suggests to me that Gerry wants to downplay going into Madeleine's bedroom.


Why would that be? (He really has placed himself in a double bind here of course because of course he cannot both be a doting father AND be a father who leaves his children alone to cry and never even looks in the bedroom despite leaving them alone without a babysitter." Of note, imo, Matt looks on with an expression of combined incredulity and I do think even disgust as Gerry makes this absurd claim.


But back to what Kate told us in the early media interview. Kate I suspect found Madeleine crying and hugely distressed.


"What do you mean you woke up?" repeats Kate several times in a distressed voice during the interview. I would take this at face value - for once - Kate does not want to believe what she is hearing. Does not want to hear it or deal with it. 


Hmmm.......when you factor in the FACT that Madeleine's father alleges he was the last person to see Madeleine alive. And the FACT that one of his best friends - David Payne - was the last person apart from her parents to allegedly see Madeleine alive and well at around 6.30pm that evening. And that another of Gerry's friends - Matt Oldfield - allegedly checks on the McCann children that evening at 8.30pm - potentially moments before she was allegedly abducted and possibly even after she was allegedly abducted as he claims he did not see her - you really cannot help but suspect that Gerry McCann, David Payne and Matt Oldfield would be people of considerable interest in this case.


And that is, of course, not taking into account Jane Tanner - partner of the other Tapas male Russell O'Brien - claiming she saw Madeleine's abductor whisking her away from apartment 5a at around 9.15pm. Which most certainly puts Jane Tanner as a person of considerable interest and also, of course, her partner Russell O'Brien as it is quite possible that she was providing a cover for him as well as making a (desperate, imo) attempt to support their Tanner-man abduction theory.


How can these people possibly NOT be people of considerable interest in this case?


Jeeze Operation Grange WELL DONE!! It's as clear as Andy Redwood's nose what happened, imo. Not suggesting that this is the only scenario or that this is even the whole picture. It's bigger than that but I think it accounts for what might have happened to Madeleine that week.


As I have long said, GM is one scary individual, imo. Not quite as clever as he thinks he is however.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by j.rob on 19.10.15 15:30

@Verdi wrote:
@comperedna wrote:My son is just leaving for a holiday with two year old and a four year old. Experience of this myself reminds me that young children rapidly litter any holiday accommodation up with used plastic mugs and attendant saliva infused milk residue, dribble and more dribble, pairs of damp pants from mini accidents, loads of worn clothes in a dirty clothes basket waiting to be put in the washer, favourite soft toys (well chewed and slobbered over) and all kinds of other juvenile gear. Mess plus DNA gets EVERYWHERE.

Something with Madeleine's DNA on it?  What about the pillow on Madeleine's bed in 5A?... the sheets even... Shoes would be ideal as they would be the wrong size for the twins to wear. MBM was said to have been stolen from her bed... ie barefoot, so shoes her would still be there. 

G's having to go back to Rothley for a pillow with M's DNA on is crazy. The flat should have been full of DNA which could be definitely be seen to be hers. The other family members DNA could easily be differentiated from it. M's toothbrush would have been ideal, as children do NOT share toothbrushes. Claiming that the McCann children did is NUTS.

Similarly, something with M's scent on for tracker dogs to follow: M's parents handing over a towel for that purpose is very rum indeed. Families DO share towels. The dog handlers should have been given an item of clothing Madeleine wore the day before she disappeared. 

Summat's madly amiss. Either the place was amazingly thoroughly cleaned, or the weird option (which I do not buy for obvious reasons) M was never in PDL, or at least in 5a at all.
Totally totally agree thumbsup !

Argued this point so many times in the past with people who claim to be scientists (in what field I know not), their answer was always the requirement in any criminal investigation for a clean sample.  A clean sample collected from the UK by one of the prime suspects, no doubt stuffed in a back-pack with other dirty laundry, transported to Portugal?  I thought the police had very stringent rules as regards the collection of evidence for forensic analysis!

I can't add to what you have written.  Sometimes the simple explanation is preferable to confused false claims of technical expertise - is that where the expression 'to blind with science' comes from?

Yes. And of course don't forget who allowed the crime scene to be contaminated by so many people?  No, Kate, not the Portuguese police but YOU and your husband and your friends allowed it to be contaminated.

And also washed all the clothes too!

Well, well. Now why would you want to do that? Get rid of all the forensics?

I can't imagine why the prime suspects would want to do that.

Can anyone?

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by HiDeHo on 19.10.15 15:49

@j.rob wrote:Summat's madly amiss. Either the place was amazingly thoroughly cleaned, or the weird option (which I do not buy for obvious reasons) M was never in PDL, or at least in 5a at all.


--------




I think it is possible that she wasn't in apartment 5a or at least not for most of that week. Which of course begs the question of where she was that week. When did 'something' happen to her? Was she ever there at all? And as a poster has asked up-thread, if it wasn't Madeleine's dead body that left the scent of cadaver in the McCanns' hired Renault Scenic, then whose was it? And the same question could be asked of the other places where the sniffer dogs alerted to cadaver scent.  


But, to try to keep it simple, suppose Madeleine McCann was in Luz that week but something untoward happened early on in the week. I theorize that by Monday all hell was breaking loose. So that leaves Saturday afternoon and evening and Sunday all day and evening for 'something' to happen.


The McCanns and their friends told us that Madeleine woke up one night and cried. They have placed this event as happening later on in the week which, given how truthful they are (ahem) , suggests to me that it happened on a different night - perhaps Saturday or Sunday evening if you run with the theory of something happening by Monday. 


Of course it is possible that TM merely invented this incidence to give credence to the 'checking' story. This is certainly possible, but perhaps a bit odd as they seemed to be at pains to insist that the checking system was fine as the children rarely woke up and if they did it was not until the early hours when the parents would be back in the apartment.


It is also possible that this incident was invented to 'prove' that Madeleine was alive, well and full of beans on Thursday morning - and unfazed by having woken up and finding no parents there - when this was not the case. 


Another possibility is that this incident DID happen. The McCanns mention it not just for the reasons above but also because they want to provide a cover in case eye-witnesses heard the crying. And the FACT  that they have sanitized the incident. claiming that Madeleine was completely unfazed by it and merely mentioned it in passing (which is not credible - this is not what a nearly four year old would do) suggests to me that this is a highly sensitive area. This would also be consistent with lying - the incident that is important is mentioned but down-played and sanitized.

There is that incredibly incriminating early media interview when Kate gets visibly flustered and upset over this allegedly trivial crying incident. She makes it clear that she wishes she had shaken Madeleine by the shoulders to find out exactly what had upset her. She even mimics this with her hands while looking visibly upset. She then fans herself with her hands as if even thinking about what it might have been is deeply distressing to her. This is indeed one giant hot potato, imo. Difficult not to consider this consistent with a certain scenario. A scenario in which parents would simulate an abduction of a child to cover up what really happened. As indeed Detective Amaral has stated.


Kate's actions, words and behaviour during that early media interview is so incriminating. To my mind it is consistent with someone who simply cannot 'go there' psychologically. She suspects something but refuses to acknowledge or believe it because to do so would necessitate such a traumatic outcome, imo. The implications are too huge - especially factoring in that there are two year old twins to bring up.


During the interview Gerry looks on with a smug kind of naughty school-boy expression as if to say: 'What can you do?' Once again, his expression is worth a thousand words. He is unmoved by Kate's plight. Unrepentant, imo and not consistent with a man whose daughter has been allegedly stolen.


In later interviews the pair noticeably down-play this crying incident and Kate even gets snappy. when asked about it.


This suggests to me that Madeleine could have woken up either on Saturday or Sunday evening/night and was distressed. I theorize that Madeleine was not alone in apartment 5a with Sean (and Amelie) at the time this happened. The reason being that this is the version of events that the McCanns have given us. So it is likely to be deliberately deceptive and misleading, imo. 


Therefore I surmise that Madeleine could have been in another apartment (which could possibly account for the lack of DNA in apartment 5a) or in apartment  5a but that the twins were somewhere else. What or perhaps more pertinently WHO woke up Madeleine and what made her cry?


And Gerry has told us that "not being there at the time it happened" increased the chances of 'it happening'. 


We know from one of the Portuguese police interviews that the key to unravelling the mystery lies with the - was it ten or twelve? -  'elements that entered the apartment. Presumably 'elements' refers to people apart from the family who went into the apartment. Why would this number of other adults who are not parents or even family be going into the McCanns' apartment? during that week? Hmmm... 


Then factor in the episode of Madeleine was Here in which Gerry and Matt talk about Matt's alleged check at 8.30pm and Gerry is heard to say, with regard to his alleged final check on a peacefully sleeping Madeleine at 9pm, "it was the only time I put my head around the door (of the childrens' bedroom." Once again, I think this is minimizing and sanitizing of events and is hugely suspicious and incriminating. Why on earth would the father of three children who are being left alone in an apartment - allegedly - want to claim that he only once ever put his head around this children's bedroom door? Given that they are supposedly being left without a babysitter the very least you would expect the caring father to do would be to 'put his head around the door'. This suggests to me that Gerry wants to downplay going into Madeleine's bedroom.


Why would that be? (He really has placed himself in a double bind here of course because of course he cannot both be a doting father AND be a father who leaves his children alone to cry and never even looks in the bedroom despite leaving them alone without a babysitter." Of note, imo, Matt looks on with an expression of combined incredulity and I do think even disgust as Gerry makes this absurd claim.


But back to what Kate told us in the early media interview. Kate I suspect found Madeleine crying and hugely distressed.


"What do you mean you woke up?" repeats Kate several times in a distressed voice during the interview. I would take this at face value - for once - Kate does not want to believe what she is hearing. Does not want to hear it or deal with it. 


Hmmm.......when you factor in the FACT that Madeleine's father alleges he was the last person to see Madeleine alive. And the FACT that one of his best friends - David Payne - was the last person apart from her parents to allegedly see Madeleine alive and well at around 6.30pm that evening. And that another of Gerry's friends - Matt Oldfield - allegedly checks on the McCann children that evening at 8.30pm - potentially moments before she was allegedly abducted and possibly even after she was allegedly abducted as he claims he did not see her - you really cannot help but suspect that Gerry McCann, David Payne and Matt Oldfield would be people of considerable interest in this case.


And that is, of course, not taking into account Jane Tanner - partner of the other Tapas male Russell O'Brien - claiming she saw Madeleine's abductor whisking her away from apartment 5a at around 9.15pm. Which most certainly puts Jane Tanner as a person of considerable interest and also, of course, her partner Russell O'Brien as it is quite possible that she was providing a cover for him as well as making a (desperate, imo) attempt to support their Tanner-man abduction theory.


How can these people possibly NOT be people of considerable interest in this case?


Jeeze Operation Grange WELL DONE!! It's as clear as Andy Redwood's nose what happened, imo. Not suggesting that this is the only scenario or that this is even the whole picture. It's bigger than that but I think it accounts for what might have happened to Madeleine that week.


As I have long said, GM is one scary individual, imo. Not quite as clever as he thinks he is however.



Regarding the CRYING issue Ithink this may cast a doubt on what we have been 'told'

They claimed in their May 4th statements that it was the TWINS that were crying but it changed to Madeleine and Sean by Gerry's May 10th and Kate's September interview.

Always the question WHY change it from twins to Madeleine and Sean

WHY tell the police in the statement May 4th Was it to suggest she was alive Thursday morning or to prepare for the claim of an 'abductor' disturbing her the night before?





Also worth noting is that Fiona and Jane claim that Kate told them on Thursday night at the table... If that is the case then surely she would have said it was the TWINS as she told the police the following morning....

Why do Jane and Fiona claim it was Madeleine and Sean...the REVISED version?

Were they 'told' AFTER and not at the table?

Always curious WHY it was changed (I have never believed it anyway)

This video explains the THREE crying episodes...


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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by j.rob on 19.10.15 15:58

WHY tell the police in the statement May 4th Was it to suggest she was alive Thursday morning or to prepare for the claim of an 'abductor' disturbing her the night before?


---


Good point. Of course it paves the way for the alleged 'abductor' having done a dummy run the night before but having been disturbed. All very weird.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Verdi on 19.10.15 16:08

@j.rob wrote:  " Not suggesting that this is the only scenario or that this is even the whole picture. It's bigger than that but I think it accounts for what might have happened to Madeleine that week."


Is there actually a  scenario or part picture hidden somewhere there or have you been at the myths again?  Reads to me like a random selection of j.rob thoughts, or failing that a preview of 'what's on next in Jackanory'.



Any chance you can precis by just saying what you think accounts for what might have happened to Madeleine that week?  Thanks!

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by j.rob on 19.10.15 16:45

@Verdi wrote:@j.rob wrote:  " Not suggesting that this is the only scenario or that this is even the whole picture. It's bigger than that but I think it accounts for what might have happened to Madeleine that week."


Is there actually a  scenario or part picture hidden somewhere there or have you been at the myths again?  Reads to me like a random selection of j.rob thoughts, or failing that a preview of 'what's on next in Jackanory'.



Any chance you can precis by just saying what you think accounts for what might have happened to Madeleine that week?  Thanks!

I thought I was being fairly clear and I am not quite sure what you mean by 'have you been at the myths again'? 

If you consider what I have written to be akin to what's on next in Jackanory (!!??) then perhaps best not to bother reading my posts.

What do you think happened to Madeleine that week?

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by HiDeHo on 19.10.15 16:47

I believe that Maddie WAS in PdL and in the apartment for these reasons...

1) Fatima gave a detailed description of Maddie as part of the family leaving their apartment and likely heading up to the Paynes for luch (as we are told happened but Fatima would have no knowledge of that)


Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada  (Cleaner) - http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post184.html#p184

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.

After she chatted to her mother about there being many children in the apartments, she had the idea that the family in 5H were friends of Madeleine’s family who were staying in 5 A.

She never cleaned any of these apartments referred to as they were allocated to her mother. Her mother never mentioned anything strange to her, either before or after the girl’s disappearance that could be related to the disappearance. The only comment she remembered concerned the clutter in the apartments, mainly clothing which was left all around the place. She thinks that her mother cleaned the apartments in that block on Monday and Wednesday (02-05).







2)    I DON'T believe the pictures are photoshopped (and if they were it would be for the same reason as changing the date on the exif data... to place Madeleine in the club during the week)

Playground pic, Last photo and tennis pic are easily taken during the first couple of days and just attributed to later in the week.

3)  How much DNA would one expect (after a basic clean) from a child that arrived in the apartment Saturday and was only back to go to bed later that day.

SUNDAY - Supposedly straight to the creche in the morning, or at least out of the apartment during the morning, up to Paynes at lunchtime, a trip to sit by the pool at lunchtime, creche in the afternoon, and time at the playground until bedtime.

MONDAY - Likely similar to Sunday....but at this point she may not have been there...

DNA would have been very scarce is my guess...

4  The DNA results are the biggie for me...

All of Madeleine's components found in the blood behind the sofa...






15 of 19 of Madeleine's markers found in the rental car...Claimed as a MATCH by Lowe, which means it was either Madeleine in that vehicle or a combination of some of her relative's markers in the same sequence and ALL dropped in the same spot...?

What are the chances?



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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by aquila on 19.10.15 16:47

@j.rob wrote:
@Verdi wrote:@j.rob wrote:  " Not suggesting that this is the only scenario or that this is even the whole picture. It's bigger than that but I think it accounts for what might have happened to Madeleine that week."


Is there actually a  scenario or part picture hidden somewhere there or have you been at the myths again?  Reads to me like a random selection of j.rob thoughts, or failing that a preview of 'what's on next in Jackanory'.



Any chance you can precis by just saying what you think accounts for what might have happened to Madeleine that week?  Thanks!

I thought I was being fairly clear and I am not quite sure what you mean by 'have you been at the myths again'? 

If you consider what I have written to be akin to what's on next in Jackanory (!!??) then perhaps best not to bother reading my posts.

What do you think happened to Madeleine that week?
@j.rob

did you stalk someone who you thought to be Matt Oldfield?

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Doug D on 19.10.15 16:49

I have never believed that a three/nearly four year old would come out with a grammatically correct ‘Sean & I’ as quoted by GM on 10th.
 
Pure supposition, but it makes much more sense that it was ‘Sean & Me’ that were crying, ‘me’ being Madeleines (and others?) pet name for Amelie, which fits in better with two out of the three other statements, but quite when, if at all this was actually said, who knows?

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 19.10.15 16:50

@Verdi, I too would be very interested in hearing what your own thoughts are, including date, cause of incident (& perpetrator if applicable), and reason for cover up.

Looking forward to your post.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by j.rob on 19.10.15 16:52

@HiDeHo wrote:I believe that Maddie WAS in PdL and in the apartment for these reasons...

1) Fatima gave a detailed description of Maddie as part of the family leaving their apartment and likely heading up to the Paynes for luch (as we are told happened but Fatima would have no knowledge of that)


Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada  (Cleaner) - http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post184.html#p184

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.

After she chatted to her mother about there being many children in the apartments, she had the idea that the family in 5H were friends of Madeleine’s family who were staying in 5 A.

She never cleaned any of these apartments referred to as they were allocated to her mother. Her mother never mentioned anything strange to her, either before or after the girl’s disappearance that could be related to the disappearance. The only comment she remembered concerned the clutter in the apartments, mainly clothing which was left all around the place. She thinks that her mother cleaned the apartments in that block on Monday and Wednesday (02-05).







2)    I DON'T believe the pictures are photoshopped (and if they were it would be for the same reason as changing the date on the exif data... to place Madeleine in the club during the week)

Playground pic, Last photo and tennis pic are easily taken during the first couple of days and just attributed to later in the week.

3)  How much DNA would one expect (after a basic clean) from a child that arrived in the apartment Saturday and was only back to go to bed later that day.

SUNDAY - Supposedly straight to the creche in the morning, or at least out of the apartment during the morning, up to Paynes at lunchtime, a trip to sit by the pool at lunchtime, creche in the afternoon, and time at the playground until bedtime.

MONDAY - Likely similar to Sunday....but at this point she may not have been there...

DNA would have been very scarce is my guess...

4  The DNA results are the biggie for me...

All of Madeleine's components found in the blood behind the sofa...






15 of 19 of Madeleine's markers found in the rental car...Claimed as a MATCH by Lowe, which means it was either Madeleine in that vehicle or a combination of some of her relative's markers in the same sequence and ALL dropped in the same spot...?

What are the chances?



Thank you. Very compelling.

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by j.rob on 19.10.15 17:01

@aquila wrote:@j.rob, would you like to answer on another thread why you 'stalked' someone you thought was Matt Oldfield?


No I wouldn't and please don't make false accusations. Jumping into one's car and failing to follow someone is hardly stalking as you very well know. I was curious as to whether the person I saw who bore a strong resemblance to one of the Tapas was who I thought it was.

In any case, I don't really care one way or the other.

The only reason my interest was piqued was because he was not keeping as low a profile as I would have thought given the circumstances surrounding the disappearance of Madeleine.

Really, I couldn't care less whether it was him or not in actual fact.

Please stop making ridiculous accusations. And being deliberately provocative. 

It's incredibly boring.

What do you think happened to Madeleine McCann and what role, if any, do you think the parents and tapas played?

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Verdi on 19.10.15 17:08

@j.rob wrote:
@Verdi wrote:@j.rob wrote:  " Not suggesting that this is the only scenario or that this is even the whole picture. It's bigger than that but I think it accounts for what might have happened to Madeleine that week."


Is there actually a  scenario or part picture hidden somewhere there or have you been at the myths again?  Reads to me like a random selection of j.rob thoughts, or failing that a preview of 'what's on next in Jackanory'.



Any chance you can precis by just saying what you think accounts for what might have happened to Madeleine that week?  Thanks!

I thought I was being fairly clear and I am not quite sure what you mean by 'have you been at the myths again'? 

If you consider what I have written to be akin to what's on next in Jackanory (!!??) then perhaps best not to bother reading my posts.

What do you think happened to Madeleine that week?
No offence intended, clearly I must keep my warped sense of humour in check!

So I'll cut to the chase..  Any chance you can precis by just saying what you think accounts for what might have happened to Madeleine that week?  Thanks!

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Re: Was Madeleine seen after Sunday? "No credible evidence that she was" WATCH THE VIDEO

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 19.10.15 17:19

@ aquila - thank you for your question

@ j.rob - thank you for your answer

Please let's keep Lizzy's thread on topic now, thanks.

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