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The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by tigger on 06.09.15 10:34

Mr. Smith would be telling the truth in January 2008  when he said he had not made any e-fits. This clearly pertained to the Kennedy visit. 

So imo it cannot be used to state he was lying  or anyone else was doing so as the McCanns didn't hire Oakley International untill July/August 2008, some seven months after the DM article.

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The E-fits produced by the smiths

Post by willowthewisp on 06.09.15 12:06

Hi Verdi,
Ref; E-fits.

Quite a few people were on TB's back over the E-fits and clearly stating that his interpretation could damage future Court proceedings?

With this in mind has anyone given any thought about the "Support given by BK" and the Metodo 3 fraudulent funding they received from Madeleines Fund - and the close involvement with an arguido, through lawyers (job offer, my **se) - and his involvement to the Smith Family, [and whether or not this has]damaged the whole case?


Edited for clarity by a Mod

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by pennylane on 06.09.15 12:22

@tigger wrote:Mr. Smith would be telling the truth in January 2008  when he said he had not made any e-fits. This clearly pertained to the Kennedy visit. 

So imo it cannot be used to state he was lying  or anyone else was doing so as the McCanns didn't hire Oakley International untill July/August 2008, some seven months after the DM article.

Absolutely agree with you, tigger!

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by pennylane on 06.09.15 12:47

@tigger wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
@jeanmonroe wrote:@Ray_Sneek

"I am engaged in a bit of research, yes, people here can choose whether or not to help me with it."
---------------------------

OK

A 'bit' of 'research'?

Not a 'lot' of 'research'?

What 'research' exactly would that be, then?

It would be very 'strange', to me, if you were ONLY 'interested' in the 'e-fits' and NOTHING else about Madeleine's mysterious 'disappearance', imo.

If you can't tell us, about the 'research' you are doing, how can we possibly 'help' you?

Anyway, because it's publicly available, here's your 'starter for 10'  (re: 'E-Fits' 'from' Irish 'family', supposedly)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Re: Martin Smith.

4135 to 4139 Additional statement from Martin Smith 2008.01.30 (English)

"He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits"

-------------------------------------------

So, Martin Smith did NOT, catergorically, 'help' with ANY 'photo/e-fits'

So you can cross him off your 'list' as a 'compiler/helper' of the E-fits, of the one/two 'man/men', ex DCI Redwood 'produced' for Crimewatch 2013.

AKA 'Smithman/men'


I'm not getting that Jean.  All that categorically tells me is that Martin Smith refused to take part in a photo fit exercise with Brian Kennedy!

Exactly. 

Imo only someone with an exceptional superiority complex and a certain contempt for ordinary people  would do a decoy run in order to establish a storyline. 

O! wait a minute.....winkwink
There's a common legal term for what TM did (imo) and it's called 'witness tampering.'

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by Tony Bennett on 06.09.15 12:51

@pennylane wrote:
@tigger wrote:Mr. Smith would be telling the truth in January 2008 when he said he had not made any e-fits. This clearly pertained to the Kennedy visit. 

So imo it cannot be used to state he was lying or anyone else was doing so as the McCanns didn't hire Oakley International untill July/August 2008, some seven months after the DM article.

Absolutely agree with you, tigger!
Let's just pause a moment to separate truth from fiction here.

Was Martin Smith telling the truth in January 2008 when he said he had not made any e-fits yet? Yes he was; there is no evidence to the contrary.

Was Oakley International hired in July or August 2008 as tigger suggests?

Absolutely not. The dates given by most authorities (no-one can be certain) are from February to April 2008. In fact, it was in August 2008 that a major row apparently erupted amongst the Directors of the Find Madeleine Fund about the employment of Oakley and Halligen - and that is when, by all accounts, Halligen was sacked. And indeed all of that was reported in many of the British papers in August 2008 (google 'McCann' 'Oakley' 'August' '2008' or check on mccannfiles.com).

Nothing can be absolutely certain about when exactly Brian Kennedy and the McCann Team first contacted Martin Smith. Nothing is certain about when and where and by whom the Smithman efits were drawn up, as none of those involved will say a thing about it.

If we are to believe what we are told, and going by the various accounts we have available, we can be reasonably certain that:

1. Metodo 3 and/or Brian Kennedy first contacted the Smiths around December 2007/January 2008 (AFAIK we don't know if Kennedy actually visited the Smiths), and

2. Henri Exton, a sidekick of Kevin Halligen and the former head of Covert Intelligence for MI5, probably drew up the efits in the spring of 2008.   

We also know that in effect Martin Smith had aligned himself with the McCann Team by the spring of 2008 and by early 2009 had even agreed to change his witness statement to suit the McCann Team - by altering the age of the man he claimed to have seen from '40' to '34 to 35', for the benefit of the 30-second audio message summarising his evidence that the McCanns posted on their website in May 2009.

The evidence that Martin Smith had aligned himself with the McCann Team since the spring of 2008 - thus making all that he said about 'recognising' Gerry McCann as the man he saw redundant and worthless - is all on the SMITHMAN 8 thread, here:

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11521-smithman-8-the-nine-phases-of-smithman-how-the-smiths-became-part-of-the-mccann-team-in-january-2008

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by Tony Bennett on 06.09.15 13:15

@pennylane wrote:
There's a common legal term for what TM did (imo) and it's called 'witness tampering.'
Again, what do we know?

1. That whatever Martin Smith and the Smiths have said and done, there are significant questions marks about their evidence 

2. Martin Smith's claim that he could 'recognise' Gerry McCann, over four months after he says he saw the man, with his head down, for a second or two, in the dark, and said he'd never be able to recognise him again - and on the massively slender basis that it was 'the way he was carrying Sean over his left shoulder' - is highly doubtful

3. According to the article by Mark Hollingsworth in the Evening Standard in August 2009, Brian Kennedy and his men had intimidated several witnesses (plural) into silence.

Now, on the evidence I have seen I do not accept for one moment that it was Gerry McCann who was carrying Madeleine's lifeless body through the streets of Praia da Luz at about 10pm on 3 May, nor do I accept Martin Smith as a witness of truth, as everyone here knows.

However, where I do accept that pennylane could be right, is where she suggests that there may have been 'witness tampering'.

I think it's well within the bounds of possibility that Martin Smith was 'got at' by members of the McCann Team, or those they employed, and has agreed (for whatever reason, we don't of course know for sure) to tow the McCanns' line and support them.

One specific possibility is that Martin Smith was asked simply to consent to affirming that he and his family had drawn up those efits - when in fact they  hadn't done so at all. Henri Exton could have produced those two e-fits of two very different-looking men from actual photographs of people he knew. 

Similarly, did he agree with the McCann Team changing his evidence for the audio message? - changing the man's age from 40 to '34 to 35'?

Or by that time did he just have to go along with whatever the McCann Team - and later Operation Grange - asked him to do?

Finally, 'witness tampering' is better known by the courts as perverting the course of justice

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Smithman

Post by kaz on 09.09.15 13:31

If, as you state Tony, the Smithman sighting was not a true account of the event, why would the McCann team need to exercise a bit of muscle on a re write ? I actually believe you're right about the Smiths by the way but am puzzled as to why it would be of such concern to the McCann team. I personally believe that OG picked it up and ran with it because it reinforced a completely false time frame for Madeleine's disappearance . The OG doing what it was meant to do ...........................create diversion, subversion and a completely fanciful version!

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.09.15 14:17

@kaz wrote:If, as you state Tony, the Smithman sighting was not a true account of the event, why would the McCann Team need to exercise a bit of muscle on a re write?

REPLY: I'm sorry, this is a bit of a riddle, I am not sure what you mean by 'exercising a bit of muscle on a re-write'. If you could explain, I will try to supply an answer. I think you might be referring to why the McCann Team (n in early 2009) changed the age Martin Smith gave for the man he claimed he saw from '40' to 'about 34 to 35' for the purpose of the audio recording of the Smith 'sighting' on their website - then I have no idea. It must have suited their purposes at the time. Or maybe Martin Smith said something like: "Goodness! I remember it now! He didn't look 40, he was about 34! Or maybe 35!" You will have to ask the McCanns. Or their spokesman, the current head of 'Clarence Mitchell Communications'. 

If you mean why did they 'muscle in' on the Smith sighting as early as December 2008, I think I have given a fair explanation in my article 'The Nine Phases of Smithman', here:    
 http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11521-smithman-8-the-nine-phases-of-smithman-how-the-smiths-became-part-of-the-mccann-team-in-january-2008

I actually believe you're right about the Smiths by the way

REPLY: Join the club! Its members are growing in numbers.

but am puzzled as to why it would be of such concern to the McCann Team.

REPLY: Because they could make very good use of it?

I personally believe that OG picked it up and ran with it because it reinforced a completely false time frame for Madeleine's disappearance.

REPLY: Yes! Remember the sound of that clock ticking loudly during the BBC Crimewatch McCann Special, as Redwood and the BBC Amroliwala exulted about his Damascene 'Revelation Moment'?  Smithman miraculously widened the 'window' for the abduction from less than 5 minutes if Tannerman was the abductor, to 50 minutes (9.10pm to 10.00pm) if Smithman was the abductor.

Brilliant! - even if founded an a whole series of fabrications. It even enabled him to say that an intruder may have murdered Madeleine in the apartment ("she may have been dead when she 'left' the apartment").   
   

The OG doing what it was meant to do...create diversion, subversion and a completely fanciful version!

REPLY: Or to use my oft-repeated words, not far off those of Wendy Murphy's: "An expensive charade designed to influence public perception".

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The E-fits produced by the smiths

Post by willowthewisp on 09.09.15 14:41

Hi Tony,
Better alert Interpol to find Messers,SIO Hamish Campbell and cohort DCI Andy Redwood to the House of Parliament to explain themselves with regard to another scam documentary,Crime Watch, October 2013 to help to deceive the public of what happened in Operation Grange, since they were unable to find the Abductor?
DCI Andy Redwood in the Crime Watch program, I think failed to reveal who had made the E-Fits and how long they had been in someone's possession?
He had however discovered "creche Dad"plus Pyjama clothing and moved the time scale to 50 minutes for an abductor to have absconded from the scene, with Madeleine?
The two named officers have been able to clarify that the Tapas group and parents were not suspects though, in the missing girl Madeleine McCann, Got that!!?

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by kaz on 09.09.15 14:48

Bit of a risk though with the photofit looking so like Gerry McCann. Maybe the risk was worth taking if as you say it supplied a much wider 'window of
abduction opportunity.' Especially if you can support it with another e fit of someone who looks nothing like the the man the Smiths were supposed to believe it was. A good result! Maybe Andy Dead,  sorry Red,   Wood is not as daft as he looks and am I the only one who thinks the non Gerry version looks rather like Redwood himself? Maybe Mr Smith was having a private joke with that one.
I can only think that since  the OG were willing to pick it up and run with it that there was  no substance whatsoever to   the whole scenario. It's just a diversion.

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by Ray_Sneek on 09.09.15 18:48

@kaz wrote:Bit of a risk though with the photofit looking so like Gerry McCann.
But does it, though?

One of the two Op Grange e-fits:




A lookalike?



Another lookalike?


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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by kaz on 09.09.15 19:03

No, that one doesn't but the other one does. The one you show is very much like Redwood himself in my opinion. Mr Smith having a private joke? Ridiculous isn't it that two
 e fits purporting to show the same man can be so utterly different?

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by Ray_Sneek on 09.09.15 19:04

]



Some more lookalikes? - 1



Yet another:



Gerry McCann?



Or him?



Two years, TWO e-fits...and they've still not found him?

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by sharonl on 09.09.15 22:03

@kaz wrote:Bit of a risk though with the photofit looking so like Gerry McCann. Maybe the risk was worth taking if as you say it supplied a much wider 'window of
abduction opportunity.' Especially if you can support it with another e fit of someone who looks nothing like the the man the Smiths were supposed to believe it was. A good result! Maybe Andy Dead,  sorry Red,   Wood is not as daft as he looks and am I the only one who thinks the non Gerry version looks rather like Redwood himself? Maybe Mr Smith was having a private joke with that one.
I can only think that since  the OG were willing to pick it up and run with it that there was  no substance whatsoever to   the whole scenario. It's just a diversion.

There were two completely different e-fits.  How can we say that one of them looks like someone without the other ruling him out?

Which one looks like Gerry McCann?  The only likeness I see is the hair colouring.

If one e-fit did look like McCann, could this be a cunning & diversionary ploy to once again remove our attention from an earlier time to the evening of May 3rd when he had the alibi of being at the Tapas? And of course the 2nd e-fit that looks nothing like the first, to back him up?


Mr Sneek - If you know who your Avatar man is may I suggest that you contact the Portuguese Police or at least pass it onto Goncalo Amaral - that's really spooky.

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by worriedmum on 09.09.15 22:14

I think both e-fits could easily be of the same person. 

You have to factor in that two different people constructed them;they viewed the person from different angles; hairlines viewed from the side might lead you to make assumptions about the face full on....

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.09.15 22:43

@worriedmum wrote:I think both e-fits could easily be of the same person. 

You have to factor in that two different people constructed them; they viewed the person from different angles; hairlines viewed from the side might lead you to make assumptions about the face full on....
FIRST POINT

On their own admission, the Smiths say they saw this person:

* in the dark
* with poor street lighting
* for two or three seconds at the most
* Martin Smith said he had his head down
* and all three of them signed a declaration on 26 May 2007 that they would never be able to recognise him again if they saw him

SECOND POINT

Despite all that, it was about one year later (on the evidence that's been made available to us), or maybe longer than a year, that it is claimed that the former Head of Covert Intelligence for MI5, Henri Exton, drew up these two efits with the help of the Smith

THIRD POINT

How far would you trust the word of MI5's former Head of Covert Intelligence, who was dismissed and convicted of a crime after stealing a bottle of perfume from Manchester Airport, and was working for con-man, fraudster and criminal Kevin Halligen?

FOURTH POINT

When was the last time the police, looking for a suspect, put out two different images of the bloke they want to find? 

FIFTH POINT 

Looking at the two faces:

                                A                                                                  B



1. A has olive skin, B has white
2. A has crew cut, B has longer hair brushed back (& looks older)
3. A has triangular face, B has rectangular face
4. A has thinner face, B fatter
5. A has small, triangular chin, B has large chin
6. A has much longer nose than B   
7. A has thinner lips than B

  
    
These are just some of the points that make no sense to me.

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by aquila on 09.09.15 22:48

The similarities are remarkable. A revelation in fact.

They both have:

Ears

Eyes

Nose

Chin

Hair

Forehead

Cheeks

Lips



laughat

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by sharonl on 09.09.15 23:17

I would love to have a pound for every time the media have said

"Madeleine McCann disappeared from her bed on the evening of May 3rd 2007 whilst her parents ate at the local tapas"

From her bed?

On May 3rd?

Whilst her parents ate at the local tapas?

No, sorry,  but no matter how many times the media have tried to throw this at us, I am not buying it.  Certainly not until I see some credible evidence that Madeleine was around after tea time on April 29th and up until tea time on May 3rd.

If the PJ were right and an abduction had been staged, then when exactly did Madeleine disappear?  Not necessarily on the evening of May 3rd.  BUT, it would be within their interests to convince us that this disappearance occurred during that evening in order to divert attention from the actual time of Madeleines' disappearance and to stop the police from asking awkward questions about those previous days.

What exactly were the tapas 9 doing during the period of April 29 - May 3rd? 

We know what they did on April 28th up until the afternoon of the 29th and we know what they did from May 3rd onwards, but what about in between?  The PJ files and Kates' book tells us very little.  Look at Jane Tanners Rogatory interview, Leics police skim over that period - its conveniently irrelevant.

To make this story stick there had to be some evidence somewhere that Madeleine disappeared on May 3rd, so in the absence of such evidence, the only thing that you can do is create some. 

Firstly we have the Tanner sighting which never did hold much credibility.

Then we have 3 members of the Smith family backing up the Tanner sighting.

Tanner changes her story and points the finger at Murat

Smith clears Murat with a sighting of someone who was "no one out of the ordinary" but definately not Murat

Smith points the finger at Gerry McCann

Gerry has an alibi of being at the tapas

Smith backtracks and fails to turn up when required in Portugal

Five years later two different e-fits emerge, some think that one looks like Gerry but that doesnt matter because there is a second one.
 
We are left with:

Murat is in the clear for May 3rd

McCann is in the clear for May 3rd

And that great media line still stands

"Madeleine McCann disappeared from her bed on the evening of May 3rd 2007 whilst her parents ate at the local tapas"

Very clever - but I am still not buying it.

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by kaz on 10.09.15 8:28

@sharoni

Couldn't have said it better myself. The Smith sighting in a nutshell.

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by Ray_Sneek on 10.09.15 10:40

@sharonl wrote:
Mr Sneek - If you know who your Avatar man is may I suggest that you contact the Portuguese Police or at least pass it onto Goncalo Amaral - that's really spooky.
I do know who Avatar man is.

It is my opinion that he looks very much like one (but not the other) of the e-fits:



Which is why I have asked what other people here think about these images.

But I have a problem with your suggestion.

Suppose for one moment I am right, and that this man is indeed represented in that grainy e-fit.

My problem is that I know he was not in Praia da Luz at about 10.00pm on Thursday, 3rd May. Nor was he there at all at that time.

So he can't be the man seen by the Smiths

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by worriedmum on 10.09.15 11:34

Per-lease....

It isn't a competitition on the back of a cereal packet to find the 'man-who-looks -most-like'....

It is a facet in an investigation into the disappearance and possible death of a three year old......as has been stated elsewhere, some of the evidence is cumulative?

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by joyce1938 on 10.09.15 12:08

The Smiths didn't back up tannerman sighting at all, he said what he and family saw from uneven distances, so some could see one thing and others saw from a different perspective, they were walking in road and some in front by sounds of it.  Mr Smith and, I think, his son did return and saw Mr Amaral, he says so?  Was supposed to come again but Amaral was moved on, and another did not request it.  May have got muddled with first visit, he did report it after few days, I don't think 13 days was the no.  joyce1938

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by sallypelt on 10.09.15 12:26

Can I ask what members think about the way Gerry McCann carried his son down the steps of the plane, on the return from Portugal? Does anyone think it's a natural way to carry a sleeping child?

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by joyce1938 on 10.09.15 12:30

Yes many people would carry a child this way,i think maybe the sort of way he moved and maybe held his head ,would be what would jog a memory  and that's what elerted smith I feel .ofcourse it would be almost impossible to prove from that alone ,and as we cant have seen the event  when it occurred on the night ,we may never know . joyce1938

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Re: The efits produced by the Smiths, has the man been found yet?

Post by sallypelt on 10.09.15 12:37

@joyce1938 wrote:Yes many people would carry a child this way,i think maybe the sort of way he moved and maybe held his head ,would be what would jog a memory  and that's what elerted smith I feel .ofcourse it would be almost impossible to prove from that alone ,and as we cant have seen the event  when it occurred on the night ,we may never know . joyce1938
Thank you for your swift reply joyce. I totally agree that it's a natural way to carry a child. The reason for my asking is, why did Martin Smith say this in his 26/5/07 statement:

"He adds that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual". 
It sooo backs up what Jane Tanner said in HER statement. 


Yet, Martin Smith says in a later statement, AFTER he saw Gerry McCann carrying his sleeping son, quite naturally down the steps of the plane, that it was the way GM was carrying the child that made MS "60-80% sure" that it was GM. 

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