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Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Rainbow on 23.09.10 21:44

I cant think Burke was responsible to be honest.Another strange case,that probably wont be solved until there is a DNA hit.

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by aiyoyo on 24.09.10 17:04

Me too, I thought Burke too young to be involved.

If anything, if it's family member, then strongest poss. of her perpetrator is her dad and her mum probably knew about it all along that the poor little thing had been systematically abused over time, thus they were covering for each other, self perservation and all. He probably came up with strangulation while she dreamed up ranson note to mislead and throw off investigators. She could have died at their hands while resisting her dad abuse while her mum looked on by falling against a hard surface during the tag and pull resistance, then the rest schemed up by her parents. She was only a wee little girl physically impossible to resist an adult so why did stranger have to strangle her with a specially made garotte requiring skills if she was already injured, not likely to resist nor capable to do so against her beast of a perpetrator?

I am still of the view her manner of death plus venus she was left suggest family involvement.

As for the polygraph tkaen privately as they hinted......if they have nothing to hide why resist or why not offer to take one from the police? What better way than that to prove innocent? Who can verify the veracity of a privately done one or was corruption involved.

Another strange case where money and connections obstruct the truth.





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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Rainbow on 24.09.10 18:55

The reason for taking a private polygraph was that by that time they believed the police were focusing on the parents instead of looking for anyone else and they didnt trust the police nor any law enforcement body eg the FBI.

I always thought it was the parents or at least Patsy but the unidentified DNA in 2 seperate places has given me cause to doubt.

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by aiyoyo on 25.09.10 9:24

quote="Rainbow"]The reason for taking a private polygraph was that by that time they believed the police were focusing on the parents instead of looking for anyone else and they didnt trust the police nor any law enforcement body eg the FBI.



hi Rainbow

Surely their excuse was just a load of bullock.
It's not a case of not trusting the police or FBI. More like a case of them knowing full well they will fail polygraph thereby incriminating themselves rendering the police suspicions right all along.

If that was not the case, more so they should accept or even offer to take the polygraph with Police.
Truly innocents have nothing to be afraid of. Offer to take the test one time, ten times, as many times as it takes to convince the police to rule them out. The consistent must say something.
How can police framed them as they alleged or feared, because they were the ones constantly calling CNN and feeding it with stories. Had they told the media/papers they'd taken numeral polygraph tests and passed with flying colours, what could be better than that to prove their non involvement.

I dont give the miniscule dna any consideration at all simply because its so miniscule that does not make sense. Either the intruder used gloves or didnt use gloves. The thing is: if blood stained the undergarment it would mean no gloves were used, so why the less than microscopic amount?

Also, was the undergarment found on her, meaning wore on her, or was it found near her as in on the floor?
Why would intruder after stripping her, violated her, murdered her, then bothered to dress her again?
Especially under that circumstances when he was in a relatively safe and secured place as wine cellar unlikely to be chanced upon by passing public. Most criminals either left in hurry, meaning not bothered to redress victims, or take clothings with for disposal to avoid incriminating evidence against them. I've never ever come across criminal redressing their victim, especially stranger killing.

Family killing is quite a different story because of sentiment involved and availability of material things to use as they wished. Was it confirmed undergarment found on her was hers in the first place? Why did she wear undergarment like tights to sleep? I read she'd tights on?

I'm still inclined to think, if she was found fully clothed and covered up in 'white blanket' as attested by her dad, it's not the work or mentality of intruder or criminal. Pertinent question is: Did the police question about the undergarments? Were they hers, were those the last thing she'd on when the ramseys put her to bed? Who'd put them on for her?

How did the intruder dress her up without shedding skin, prints, hair, anything at all.....
The police should review photos, clothings found on her body, the way she was dressed, position she was found.......Just by looking at position and condition she was found, police should be able to deduce was that work of a sick minded intruder or insider job. Neat or messy makes a great difference in the determinant factor.
Ask would it be possible, practical or even logical for intruder to violate her, kille her, yet leave her in a relatively neat stage, or was she found in a complete mess? The overall visual condition when found would be good indication of her perpetrator in her case I would have thought particularly because of the venus she was found - a rather inaccessible place to intruder as a norm.

No, I am not floored by the dna discovery. The ramseys got lucky. I even wonder whether the garments were handled in its proper manner when collected by police or during custody of police.
I dont believe in perfect crime by stranger, too many elements involved.
From statistics, perfect crime is usually crime of passion or blood related, as in mccanns, billyjo jenkins, and jonbenett ramsey because perpetrators had time on hand wthout same factors of fear as intruder to premeditate cover up.

What makes billy jo jenkins and jon benett ramsey cases different from Madeleine mccann is that there is suspected fund fraud involved in the mccanns case.


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Who was in the house the night of 25/26 December?

Post by Tony Bennett on 25.09.10 11:20

I hesitate to join this debate because the murder of little JonBenet was so gruesome.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the Ramsey family know exactly what happened and not for one moment do I believe that the first they knew about it was a 2.5 page ransom note for $118,000 found on the stairs, at the same time that JonBenet lay garotted and beaten in their wine cellar.

However, I will reproduce below extracts from the Boulder District Attorney's Report, the one which, bizarrely, exonerated the Ramseys:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

EXTRACTS:

The murder has received unprecedented publicity and has been shrouded in controversy. That publicity has led to many theories over the years in which suspicion has focused on one family member or another. However, there has been at least one persistent stumbling block to the possibility of prosecuting any Ramsey family members for the death of JonBenet – DNA.

As part of its investigation of the JonBenet Ramsey homicide, the Boulder Police identified genetic material with apparent evidentiary value. Over time, the police continued to investigate DNA, including taking advantage of advances in the science and methodology. One of the results of their efforts was that they identified genetic material and a DNA profile from drops of JonBenet’s blood located in the crotch of the underwear she was wearing at the time her body was discovered. That genetic profile belongs to a male and does not belong to anyone in the Ramsey family.

PART SNIPPED

The police department diligently compared that profile to a very large number of people associated with the victim, with her family, and with the investigation, and has not identified the source, innocent or otherwise, of this DNA.

Based upon multiple recommendations, including that of the Boulder Police Department, we contacted the Bode Technology Group located near Washington, D.C., and initiated discussions with the professionals at that laboratory. First Assistant District Attorney Peter Maguire and Investigator Andy Horita spent a full day with staff members at the Bode facility in early December of 2007.

The Bode Technology laboratory applied the “touch DNA” scraping method to both sides of the waist area of the long johns that JonBenet Ramsey was wearing over her underwear when her body was discovered. These sites were chosen because evidence supports the likelihood that the perpetrator removed and/or replaced the long johns, perhaps by handling them on the sides near the waist.

On March 24, 2008, Bode informed us that they had recovered and identified genetic material from both sides of the waist area of the long johns. The unknown male profile previously identified from the inside crotch area of the underwear matched the DNA recovered from the long johns at Bode.

We consulted with a DNA expert from a different laboratory, who recommended additional investigation into the remote possibility that the DNA might have come from sources at the autopsy when this clothing was removed. Additional samples were obtained and then analysed by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation to assist us in this effort. We received those results on June 27th of this year and are, as a result, confident that this DNA did not come from innocent sources at the autopsy. As mentioned above, extensive DNA testing had previously excluded people connected to the family and to the investigation as possible innocent sources.

The unexplained third party DNA on the clothing of the victim is very significant and powerful evidence. It is very unlikely that there would be an innocent explanation for DNA found at three different locations on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of her murder. This is particularly true in this case because the matching DNA profiles were found on genetic material from inside the crotch of the victim’s underwear and near the waist on both sides of her long johns, and because concerted efforts that might identify a source, and perhaps an innocent explanation, were unsuccessful.

It is therefore the position of the Boulder District Attorney’s Office that this profile belongs to the perpetrator of the homicide.

END OF EXTRACT

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am troubled about the mention of the blood.

I wonder whether there were other males present with Mr Ramsey in the house on the night of 25/26 December, when JonBenet was murdered i.e. males known to him.

Beyond that I will not go.

Except, that is, to link to this brilliant analysis of the ransom note, so obviously written by Mrs Ramsey:

http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by aiyoyo on 25.09.10 12:52


I wonder whether there were other males present with Mr Ramsey in the house on the night of 25/26 December, when JonBenet was murdered i.e. males known to him.

Beyond that I will not go.

Except, that is, to link to this brilliant analysis of the ransom note, so obviously written by Mrs Ramsey:

http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/

I wonder too. That could be a possibility.
Shame the true will never ever be known I wonder who was covering for who.
Was friend covering for ramseys or other way round, or a case of a pact of silence.

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Rainbow on 26.09.10 17:19

Hi Aiyoyo hi

Re the polygraph,apparently they passed the private one winkwink Incidentally Patsy did say she would take 10 polygraphs if it meant the police would leave them aside and start looking for the real perp.

Re the DNA..I dont think it can be discounted so easily tbh as it matched in 3 places-the long johns,the panties and under her nails although there were considerably less markers in the fingernail DNA there were still enough to be entered into codis.Touch DNA is microscopic skin cells and are found where a person is likely to have touched something.She was put to bed in the long johns which were taken freshly laundered from the drawer...another reason for the DA being certain it is an intruders DNA.I dont know if they were removed or just pulled down,she didnt have tights on and the long johns were more like pyjama bottoms.




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JONBENET: Another investigation begins

Post by Tony Bennett on 26.09.10 22:49

@Rainbow wrote:...another reason for the DA being certain it is an intruder's DNA.
Would it not be more neutral, and more accurate, to simply say 'another person's DNA?

There is about as much proof of an 'intruder' entering the Ramseys' house during the night of 25/26 December and leaving a 2.5-page handwritten note half-way up the stairs for $118,000 (the exact amount just paid into the Ramsey's account) as there is for...well...an abductor removing Madeleine without trace from Apartment 5A between 9.11pm and 9.14pm on Thursday 3 May 2007.

++++++++

P.S. Rainbow, are you aware that the Boulder Police are now re-investigating JonBenet's death? The DA's report is NOT the final action in this case.

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Rainbow on 27.09.10 0:01

Yes I am aware of that but she has still exonerated the Ramseys based on the DNA and other evidence.

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Judge Mental on 27.09.10 0:11

@Rainbow wrote:Yes I am aware of that but she has still exonerated the Ramseys based on the DNA and other evidence.

@ Rainbow

Have you looked up the definition of exonerated recently? If so, your dictionary is wrong. One would suggest to you that these people are only exonerated in the eyes of each other and those who have supported them.

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by aiyoyo on 27.09.10 5:43

@Rainbow wrote:Hi Aiyoyo hi

Re the polygraph,apparently they passed the private one winkwink Incidentally Patsy did say she would take 10 polygraphs if it meant the police would leave them aside and start looking for the real perp.

I am skeptical about private polygraph, no logic in that when the case is so public beamed worldwide.
Promising to do so but didnt deliver is something else - empty words mean nothing.


Re the DNA..I dont think it can be discounted so easily tbh as it matched in 3 places-the long johns,the panties and under her nails although there were considerably less markers in the fingernail DNA there were still enough to be entered into codis.Touch DNA is microscopic skin cells and are found where a person is likely to have touched something.She was put to bed in the long johns which were taken freshly laundered from the drawer...another reason for the DA being certain it is an intruders DNA.I dont know if they were removed or just pulled down,she didnt have tights on and the long johns were more like pyjama bottoms.

I have to agree with TB. More appropriate to term it 'another's person dna' rather than anything else because there was no evidence supporting an intruder. Trace dna obliged the law to declare them 'de-considered' (if there's such a term), meaning not prime focus, but hardly exonerated.

Exoneration applies when case is solved and perpetrator convicted and punished. Anything short of that is ramseys drawing the long straw in the interm. Logics dictate any objective law enforcers working on the case would not completely disregard the ramseys, if nothing else, than the fact no evidence supports intruder.

Your term of 'exoneration is just a technicality of the law' so to speak, and 'not exoneration in its true sense' per se, just like mccanns case. And, similar to the mccanns case, it is well documented that throughout the investigation process, investigators believed the parents were coupable.

Billyjo jenkins, JBR, and MBM case have similarities, in that the parent/s are suspected, and with passing time that has not changed in the eyes of the police or public (at least a vast majority of them).


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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Rainbow on 28.09.10 0:03

However they are no longer being treated as suspects but as victims although IF and its a big if further evidence arose that incriminated them they would of course be investigated further.

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Judge Mental on 28.09.10 1:00

@Rainbow wrote:However they are no longer being treated as suspects but as victims although IF and its a big if further evidence arose that incriminated them they would of course be investigated further.

@ Rainbow

Alas, there are those who would question the size of your IF, Rainbow.

Would you be prepared to try and quantify why your IF is so big? Not that one has a problem with women who are prone to exaggeration. Indeed, one happens to live with one such female, so is therefore quite at home with it.

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by aiyoyo on 28.09.10 2:23

@Rainbow wrote:However they are no longer being treated as suspects but as victims although IF and its a big if further evidence arose that incriminated them they would of course be investigated further.

Do you seriously think that investigators working on the case are now just going to be singled-mindedly pursuing one direction just because of the proclamation?

Do you naively believe the unerasble abundance circumstantial evidence on files against the ramseys are going to be ignored by investigators if they hope to crack the case?

You do realise public proclamation very often obliged by the law are not going to affect how police work an unsolved case. Anyone believing the police are not still looking at ramseys alongside other possibilities is not being objective, but the police are obligated to be that - objective I mean.

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Rainbow on 29.09.10 23:33

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Rainbow wrote:However they are no longer being treated as suspects but as victims although IF and its a big if further evidence arose that incriminated them they would of course be investigated further.

Do you seriously think that investigators working on the case are now just going to be singled-mindedly pursuing one direction just because of the proclamation?

Do you naively believe the unerasble abundance circumstantial evidence on files against the ramseys are going to be ignored by investigators if they hope to crack the case?

You do realise public proclamation very often obliged by the law are not going to affect how police work an unsolved case. Anyone believing the police are not still looking at ramseys alongside other possibilities is not being objective, but the police are obligated to be that - objective I mean.


Yes I do,they have had 14 years to investigate the Ramseys to no avail.

No not ignored but the DA stated that she was exonerating them on the DNA and OTHER EVIDENCE.

They are no longer suspects though and are to be traeted as victims rather like DCI Roes announcement to Mr Bennett that he is not a suspect with regard to the fraud allegations.

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Judge Mental on 30.09.10 3:38

Rainbow wrote ............. 'No not ignored but the DA stated that she was exonerating them on the DNA and OTHER EVIDENCE.
They are no longer suspects though and are to be traeted as victims rather like DCI Roes announcement to Mr Bennett that he is not a suspect with regard to the fraud allegations..'

This 'OTHER EVIDENCE' sounds rather dramatic, Rainbow.

When you say they are to be 'treated as victims', do you mean that people who regard the Ramseys with suspicion should now accept the D.A.'s word and stop investigating the discrepancies surrounding JonBenet's parents?

BTW, Rainbow,

The matter of DCI Roe, Tony Bennett and a bit of paperwork is not at all 'rather like' the D.A.'s decision concerning the parents of a murdered child.

One will tell you what is rather like, Rainbow. It is rather like somebody has a compulsion to keep on mentioning something just for the sake of it. That is what it is rather like .













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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by aiyoyo on 30.09.10 4:20

@Rainbow wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@Rainbow wrote:However they are no longer being treated as suspects but as victims although IF and its a big if further evidence arose that incriminated them they would of course be investigated further.

Do you seriously think that investigators working on the case are now just going to be singled-mindedly pursuing one direction just because of the proclamation?

Do you naively believe the unerasble abundance circumstantial evidence on files against the ramseys are going to be ignored by investigators if they hope to crack the case?

You do realise public proclamation very often obliged by the law are not going to affect how police work an unsolved case. Anyone believing the police are not still looking at ramseys alongside other possibilities is not being objective, but the police are obligated to be that - objective I mean.


Yes I do,they have had 14 years to investigate the Ramseys to no avail.

I dont believe for a mo. they wasted 14 yrears focusing soley on the ramseys. The ramseys might be primary focus but not the only one. I will give the police more credit than that as I dont believe every one on the team is green.

No not ignored but the DA stated that she was exonerating them on the DNA and OTHER EVIDENCE.

DA's proclamation is one thing, evidence on file another. Like you conceded they wont be ignored.
Police working the case will continue to study them together with other evidence , or any new materials to hand.
Their focus may vary in weight from time to time and at various time, but police will never ignore any evidence past or current for the simple reason even the newest discovery didnt lead them anywhere. So evidence against ramseys wasnt the only aspect that went no where.


They are no longer suspects though and are to be traeted as victims rather like DCI Roes announcement to Mr Bennett that he is not a suspect with regard to the fraud allegations.

It isnt fair of you to compare the two in the same light. There's simply no comparison between the two cases.
One is an investigation of a menacing allegation, pretty straight forward because evidence were presented for scrutiny and eliminated.

while that of the ramseys is of the murder of a little girl, a lot more complicated.


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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Rainbow on 30.09.10 20:18

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Rainbow wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@Rainbow wrote:However they are no longer being treated as suspects but as victims although IF and its a big if further evidence arose that incriminated them they would of course be investigated further.

Do you seriously think that investigators working on the case are now just going to be singled-mindedly pursuing one direction just because of the proclamation?

Do you naively believe the unerasble abundance circumstantial evidence on files against the ramseys are going to be ignored by investigators if they hope to crack the case?

You do realise public proclamation very often obliged by the law are not going to affect how police work an unsolved case. Anyone believing the police are not still looking at ramseys alongside other possibilities is not being objective, but the police are obligated to be that - objective I mean.


Yes I do,they have had 14 years to investigate the Ramseys to no avail.

I dont believe for a mo. they wasted 14 yrears focusing soley on the ramseys. The ramseys might be primary focus but not the only one. I will give the police more credit than that as I dont believe every one on the team is green.

No not ignored but the DA stated that she was exonerating them on the DNA and OTHER EVIDENCE.

DA's proclamation is one thing, evidence on file another. Like you conceded they wont be ignored.
Police working the case will continue to study them together with other evidence , or any new materials to hand.
Their focus may vary in weight from time to time and at various time, but police will never ignore any evidence past or current for the simple reason even the newest discovery didnt lead them anywhere. So evidence against ramseys wasnt the only aspect that went no where.


They are no longer suspects though and are to be traeted as victims rather like DCI Roes announcement to Mr Bennett that he is not a suspect with regard to the fraud allegations.

It isnt fair of you to compare the two in the same light. There's simply no comparison between the two cases.
One is an investigation of a menacing allegation, pretty straight forward because evidence were presented for scrutiny and eliminated.

while that of the ramseys is of the murder of a little girl, a lot more complicated.



No of course they didnt focus solely on the Ramseys,I didnt mean to imply they did.


Sorry wasnt meaning to be unfair at all,just stating the wording was similar.

BTW Patsy could not be ruled in or out as the writer of the note although on a scale of 1-5 with 5 being eliminated she was considered a 4 or 4.5.Personally I thought it very like her handwriting but of course handwriting analysis is also based on the differences as well as similarities.

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by aiyoyo on 01.10.10 12:33

hi Rainbow

The 'ransom note' nail it for me.
Handwriting expert put it down to her, and I believe that because of the length and errie contents.

That alone proves the ramseys had motive and reason for doing that. That together with the strong circumstantial against them I think the ramseys were guily of her murder.
The unexplainable trace dna doesnt change it for me, it just lucky break for her parents.

Any idea when was trace dna discovered on her?








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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by carly1979 on 01.10.10 12:35

i have followed this case since the beginning i think it was either her father or someone stalked her from the pagents and the mum covered it up i could be totally wrong but why would patsy spend the money on all thos pagents etc to kill her? unless it was a accident

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Guest on 01.10.10 12:38

@aiyoyo wrote: hi Rainbow

The 'ransom note' nail it for me.
Handwriting expert put it down to her, and I believe that because of the length and errie contents.

That alone proves the ramseys had motive and reason for doing that. That together with the strong circumstantial against them I think the ramseys were guily of her murder.
The unexplainable trace dna doesnt change it for me, it just lucky break for her parents.

Any idea when was trace dna discovered on her?









Letter from District Attorney-Ramsey Family Exonerated
On July 9, 2008, the Boulder District Attorney's office announced that as a result of newly developed DNA sampling and testing techniques, the Ramsey family members are no longer considered suspects in the case.[13][14] In light of the new DNA evidence, Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy gave a letter[15] to John Ramsey the same day, officially apologizing to the Ramsey family:

"This new scientific evidence convinces us...to state that we do not consider your immediate family, including you, your wife, Patsy, and your son, Burke, to be under any suspicion in the commission of this crime.
... The match of Male DNA on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of the murder makes it clear to us that an unknown male handled these items. There is no innocent explanation for its incriminating presence at three sites on these two different items of clothing that JonBenét was wearing at the time of her murder. ... To the extent that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved in this crime, I am deeply sorry. No innocent person should have to endure such an extensive trial in the court of public opinion, especially when public officials have not had sufficient evidence to initiate a trial in a court of law. ... We intend in the future to treat you as the victims of this crime, with the sympathy due you because of the horrific loss you suffered. ... I am aware that there will be those who will choose to continue to differ with our conclusion. But DNA is very often the most reliable forensic evidence we can hope to find and we rely on it often to bring to justice those who have committed crimes. I am very comfortable that our conclusion that this evidence has vindicated your family is based firmly on all of the evidence,


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JonBen%C3%A9t_Ramsey

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Rainbow on 01.10.10 12:56

@aiyoyo wrote: hi Rainbow

The 'ransom note' nail it for me.
Handwriting expert put it down to her, and I believe that because of the length and errie contents.

That alone proves the ramseys had motive and reason for doing that. That together with the strong circumstantial against them I think the ramseys were guily of her murder.
The unexplainable trace dna doesnt change it for me, it just lucky break for her parents.

Any idea when was trace dna discovered on her?


No handwriting experts DIDNT put it down to her,she was neither ruled IN nor OUT and as I said on the scale she was a 4 or 4.5.

How did the Ramseys have motive and reason?

The DNA was found a couple years ago now I think.

Candyfloss: Thanks for posting that.








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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by carly1979 on 01.10.10 12:59

rainbow as i posted i dont know who killed little jon benet but i just cant see why jon benets mum would have she adored that little girl or imo she wouldnt of spent so much money on pagents etc she always wanted a little girl from what i know

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by kangdang on 01.10.10 13:13

@carly1979 wrote:rainbow as i posted i dont know who killed little jon benet but i just cant see why jon benets mum would have she adored that little girl or imo she wouldnt of spent so much money on pagents etc she always wanted a little girl from what i know

Spending money on a child does not prove adoration. Maybe her mother enjoyed the kudos.

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kangdang

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Re: Who killed JonBenet Ramsay?

Post by Rainbow on 01.10.10 13:18

@carly1979 wrote:rainbow as i posted i dont know who killed little jon benet but i just cant see why jon benets mum would have she adored that little girl or imo she wouldnt of spent so much money on pagents etc she always wanted a little girl from what i know


Hi Carly hi

I do agree although my opinion for many years was that the parents were responsible however the recently found DNA of an unknown male has given me pause for thought and doubt.Also Patsy had had cancer and I think she would have valued her time with her children too much to bump one off!! Unless it was an accident but then why not report it.........another strange case to be sure.

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