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Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 21.08.15 15:46

@guest12345 wrote:Verdi, do not quote theories of others as mine please (2nd part of your snippets).

I never stated that swinging was going on at the time of her disappearance, just that i (and others) believe that this was going on throughout the holiday. 

With regard to only posting on 'facts and intelligence' as you put it...with that in mind, the majority of this forum would have to be deleted, as the only people who have access to the forensics, intelligence and people involved in the whole saga are OG.

The rest...is theory based on certain bits of information released into the public domain, not 'wild speculation'.

Thank you, i will enjoy my friday as always.
You still don't get it do you - maybe I'm just not very good at explaining myself?  I acknowledge that the second quote was not your words (not that I said they were) and my post implied otherwise, I'll try to be more diligent in future.

Moving on.. 

a)  Swinging going on during the holiday - Madeleine disappeared during the holiday.  No further comment required.

b)  "The only people to have access to the forensics, intelligence and people involved are OG" - not true!  The Portuguese police conducted the official investigation,  the information held by Operation Grange is the PJ files, the same PJ files released intothe public arena, which fora such as this use to formulate their opinions/theories etc.

c)  A contradiction of b), therefore not worthy of comment.


I know some people consider the swinging scenario to be plausible, that is their prerogative and I have no grief with that.  My concern is when people generate nonsense without any foundation whatsoever - such as Murat having a dalliance with Tanner!  That's not even a hunch, more of a wild stab in the dark.

This is just wasting valuable time so if you wouldn't mind we must agree to disagree.  OK?

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by joyce1938 on 21.08.15 16:03

I agree ,what ever murat and tanner was doing or not doing is just a bit of gossip reallyns cant see what itw ould have to do with rest of case of what happened to maddie . joyce1938

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by tinkier on 21.08.15 18:44

@Richard IV wrote:
@tinkier wrote:http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-COSTA.htm This statement has probably been discussed here before, its a very telling insight into the young brain of RM. His mother could see no wrong in him regardless what he did, probably remains like that to this day. RM must have been either evil/sick, or both, to carry out these atrocities on a poor defencless animal…yuck!!

Don`t forget this statement peeps - quite relevant afaic.

Richard IV……..Traits of a psychopath imo. Definition of Psychopath…...glibness and superficial charm, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, cunning/manipulative, lack of remorse, emotional shallowness, callousness and lack of empathy, unwillingness to accept responsibility for actions, a tendency to boredom, a parasitic lifestyle. Add to that the abuse and killing of animals for his own gratification. So, after reading the statement (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-COSTA.htm ) does anyone else think Mr Murat would make the grade?

ETA…. No need to second guess why a criminal profiler working for the police would first point the finger at Murat, with his profile he did the Mc's a huge favour, got paid sweetly for it too. imo

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 21.08.15 19:34

@joyce1938 wrote:I agree ,what ever murat and tanner was doing or not doing is just a bit of gossip reallyns cant see what itw ould have to do with rest of case of what happened to maddie . joyce1938
Besides joyce1938,  boundaries are being crossed here which makes even less sense.  As far as I'm aware swinging is a group activity - in the dark ages known as wife swapping, whereas reference to some relationship between Murat and Tanner is a different matter entirely - known as having an affair !?!
Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance.

Did Murat hastily jet over to PdL because he fancied some communal adult fun or was it because he heard Tanner was staying a few days and fancied a bit of howz yer father with her?  Or did he jet over for some other reason?  I'm inclined to think the latter.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 21.08.15 19:53

@tigger wrote:From 'The truth of the Lie' - (I've also read elsewhere that Goncalo Amaral notes that it was the British Profilers  idea- I presume these were the two 'cracker' experts sent by CEOP - that the PJ should look at Murat.)

FOR THE PROFILERS, MURAT IS THE GUILTY PARTY

Since Murat's first interview, which they attended, the specialists have continued to refine the profile of the suspect. They have heard about the statement from one of his so-called childhood friends, put on file by the police department: according to him, Murat had an affirmed penchant for bestiality. [..]This individual describes Murat as someone violent with behavioural problems, a sexual pervert, sadist, and misanthropist. We are somewhat sceptical. All the same, according to the English profilers, there is a 90% chance that he is the guilty party. That seems to us to be a bit too easy. We think that drawing conclusions based essentially on the statement of an ex-convict is rather dangerous.

As if the memory of the McCann family's friends suddenly came back to them, all - Rachael Mampilly, wife of Matthew Oldfield, Fiona Payne, wife of David Payne, and Russell O'Brien Jane Tanner's partner - recall having seen Murat on the night of May 3rd, shortly after the announcement of the disappearance, in the immediate vicinity apartment 5A. Meanwhile, of course, Murat's picture has been shown on television and in certain newspapers. They themselves were in direct contact with him during the previous days. However, it is only on May 16th that they deliver this information to us. As for the officers of the National Guard who were on the spot, they didn't see him that night, only the next morning, when he came to offer his services as interpreter.

On July 11th at 10am, a confrontation is organised between the witnesses - Rachael Mampilly, Fiona Payne and Russell O'Brien - and Robert Murat. Nothing new comes out of it. The former persist in stating that the suspect was definitely in the area on the night of the disappearance. Murat denies the whole thing and even accuses them of lying. Each side stands its ground. The only positive aspect of this meeting: the McCanns' friends undertake to return to Portugal for the purpose of the investigation. That will not happen.
unquote


GA has a good sense of humour  smilie
Thank you tigger for saving me the trouble of raking around looking for confirmation that Murat was also seen lurking around on the night of 3rd/4th May not only by Tanner but also other members of the group - and Charlotte Pennington if memory serves me well.  Was Murat having a bit of the 'uvver with the whole lot of them - is that what led to them trying to stitch him up big grin ?

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by cbeagle on 21.08.15 19:53

@Verdi wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance.

If Tanner did know Murat, then that makes a huge impact on the case, suddenly someone in the Tapas 9 has access to a car, apartments and local knowledge.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 21.08.15 20:12

@cbeagle wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance.

If Tanner did know Murat, then that makes a huge impact on the case, suddenly someone in the Tapas 9 has access to a car, apartments and local knowledge.
And a fridgefreezer.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 21.08.15 20:12

@cbeagle wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance.

If Tanner did know Murat, then that makes a huge impact on the case, suddenly someone in the Tapas 9 has access to a car, apartments and local knowledge.
Yes, and an interpreter to facilitate an exchange of information that could suit a cause.
IMO

ETA: Perhaps unwittingly

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 21.08.15 20:22

@cbeagle wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance.

If Tanner did know Murat, then that makes a huge impact on the case, suddenly someone in the Tapas 9 has access to a car, apartments and local knowledge.
According to Linda Ruth McQueens witness statement of 7th May 2008, Gerry McCann's brother-in-law, Sandy Cameron, also had a hired car in May 2007..

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3634p20-the-renault-scenic



.offtopic

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 21.08.15 20:34

The forum appears to be temporarily infected with gremlins - the words..

"Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance."


are mine not joyce1938 and solely refer to the suggestion that Murat was in some way involved with Jane Tanner.  For the record, I do think that Murat is involved with this mystery but I don't believe his involvement has any connection with Jane Tanner specifically.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by tinkier on 21.08.15 20:53

@Verdi wrote:The forum appears to be temporarily infected with gremlins - the words..

"Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance."


are mine not joyce1938 and solely refer to the suggestion that Murat was in some way involved with Jane Tanner.  For the record, I do think that Murat is involved with this mystery but I don't believe his involvement has any connection with Jane Tanner specifically.
Boundaries being crossed, now gremlins?……. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean they are wrong. If we all knew the when, where, what in this case, maybe this mystery would have ben solved long ago. Just my humble opinion though!

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by whodunit on 21.08.15 22:16

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
@cbeagle wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance.

If Tanner did know Murat, then that makes a huge impact on the case, suddenly someone in the Tapas 9 has access to a car, apartments and local knowledge.
And a fridgefreezer.

And was offered a job by a member of TM. How is this not suspicous in and of itself and strongly indicative of collusion?

Any possible connection between Jane Tanner and Murat just adds points in favor of collusion.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 21.08.15 22:27

@tinkier wrote:
@Verdi wrote:The forum appears to be temporarily infected with gremlins - the words..

"Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance."


are mine not joyce1938 and solely refer to the suggestion that Murat was in some way involved with Jane Tanner.  For the record, I do think that Murat is involved with this mystery but I don't believe his involvement has any connection with Jane Tanner specifically.
Boundaries being crossed, now gremlins?……. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean they are wrong. If we all knew the when, where, what in this case, maybe this mystery would have ben solved long ago. Just my humble opinion though!
Sorry tinkier, you've totally lost me!  I was referring to this posted by cbeagles, then reposted..

@joyce1938 wrote:  Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance.

They were my words, not joyce1938. 

Apart from that, at the time I was experiencing problems with the forum - hence the reference to gremlins.

I agree everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to counter differing opinions is surely debate, not a question of what's right and what's wrong.  I do however adhere to my point about theorizing on non-existent information which seems to me to be a totally futile exercise.  Still, it's as well we don't all agree on everything isn't it, otherwise there would be no scope for debate.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by tinkier on 22.08.15 0:04

@Verdi wrote:
@tinkier wrote:
@Verdi wrote:The forum appears to be temporarily infected with gremlins - the words..

"Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance."


are mine not joyce1938 and solely refer to the suggestion that Murat was in some way involved with Jane Tanner.  For the record, I do think that Murat is involved with this mystery but I don't believe his involvement has any connection with Jane Tanner specifically.
Boundaries being crossed, now gremlins?……. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean they are wrong. If we all knew the when, where, what in this case, maybe this mystery would have ben solved long ago. Just my humble opinion though!
Sorry tinkier, you've totally lost me!  I was referring to this posted by cbeagles, then reposted..

@joyce1938 wrote:  Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance.

They were my words, not joyce1938. 

Apart from that, at the time I was experiencing problems with the forum - hence the reference to gremlins.

I agree everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to counter differing opinions is surely debate, not a question of what's right and what's wrong.  I do however adhere to my point about theorizing on non-existent information which seems to me to be a totally futile exercise.  Still, it's as well we don't all agree on everything isn't it, otherwise there would be no scope for debate.
Apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick Verdi but, you must admit you were having a go at a previous poster on the swinging theory. I don't agree with that either, I do however think that Murat played a fairly significant role, as to what where and when, that is the question. If I remember correctly Richard D Hall insinuated that there may have been a meeting between Gerry and Murat at a golf course? He did say he would come back to it in another film…..here's hoping.

soz

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by cbeagle on 22.08.15 1:58

Sorry @joyce1938 and @Verdi for confusing the quote.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 22.08.15 12:26

@tinkier wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@tinkier wrote:
@Verdi wrote:The forum appears to be temporarily infected with gremlins - the words..

"Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance."


are mine not joyce1938 and solely refer to the suggestion that Murat was in some way involved with Jane Tanner.  For the record, I do think that Murat is involved with this mystery but I don't believe his involvement has any connection with Jane Tanner specifically.
Boundaries being crossed, now gremlins?……. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean they are wrong. If we all knew the when, where, what in this case, maybe this mystery would have ben solved long ago. Just my humble opinion though!
Sorry tinkier, you've totally lost me!  I was referring to this posted by cbeagles, then reposted..

@joyce1938 wrote:  Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance.

They were my words, not joyce1938. 

Apart from that, at the time I was experiencing problems with the forum - hence the reference to gremlins.

I agree everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to counter differing opinions is surely debate, not a question of what's right and what's wrong.  I do however adhere to my point about theorizing on non-existent information which seems to me to be a totally futile exercise.  Still, it's as well we don't all agree on everything isn't it, otherwise there would be no scope for debate.
Apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick Verdi but, you must admit you were having a go at a previous poster on the swinging theory. I don't agree with that either, I do however think that Murat played a fairly significant role, as to what where and when, that is the question. If I remember correctly Richard D Hall insinuated that there may have been a meeting between Gerry and Murat at a golf course? He did say he would come back to it in another film…..here's hoping.

soz
No problem tinkier but the spirit of apology nonetheless appreciated :)  I wasn't having a go about the swinging theory per se, my concern was the creation of a scenario with no foundation whatsoever to back it up.  At the same time trying to point out the difference between swinging and having an affair, both of which seem to feature in said creation, involving the same couple.  You know what it's like, something is said off the cuff and a few months down the line it morphs into a full blown fact accepted by all.

I can't go along with the swinging theory, mainly because a) there is no evidence to suggest this was a reality and b) death or no death, I can't see how swinging would warrant such an extensive high level cover up.  I'm not aware of any police investigation within the UK to expose (pardon the expression) swingers - paedophiles on the other hand..

I'm guessing this theory has been largely propagated by Textusa who I can't deny has certainly put in the hours but as I can't understand much of what she's getting at I'm lost!  Different wave length - she does however attract quite a following so maybe she has a convincing argument?

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Verdi on 22.08.15 12:30

@cbeagle wrote:Sorry @joyce1938 and @Verdi for confusing the quote.
Thankee cbeagle - all sorted!  I'd hate to think of joyce1938 being saddled with my ramblings.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by joyce1938 on 22.08.15 14:33

Its o k ,it was put right by a friendly person,thank you for that  I just  was 
 thinking, that some of this guesswork on occasions  goes too far into fantasy. joyce1938

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45 Observations on this thread so far

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.08.15 17:34

Observations on this Robert Murat thread to date

Main points made by posters on the thread so far in bold

My observations in blue

++++++++++

NOTLONGNOW

IF RM was asked by the mccs to fly over at short notice for whatever reason, why did the mcc team throw him to the lions? RM seems to be the centre of everything in this case.

Observation 1: Good question.
A. Lori Campbell promote him as a suspect
B. Jane Tanner adamantly identified him as the man she claimed to have seen at 9.15pm on 3 May carrying a child. There is evidence that she had been coached to say this in the hours before she made her identification
C. A combination of MI5 staff, security services personnel, assorted criminal profilers and maybe staff from Control Risks group all combined to identify Murat as ‘90% fitting the profile of the abductor’ (see extracts from Goncalo Amaral’s book, below). Note how these as-yet-unidentified individuals worked on the assumption that there was an abduction      
D. Once Jane Tanner had identified Murat as the person she said she’d seen, Rachael Oldfield said she’s seen him hanging around the Ocean Club on the night of 3 May…
E. So did Russell O’Brien...
F. So did Fiona Payne.

This looks very much like a planned and concerted effort by people connected to the security services. It certainly had the effect of diverting any attention from the McCanns and so far as the mainstream media were concerned, Murat was the chief suspect – at least until Eddie & Keela started sniffing around Apartment G5A 

His changes of stories wouldn't look good in court. His sniffing for info from the investigation also would look dubious. Switching the phones off, again not good.
I can't believe he agreed to be identified by the mcc team.

 
Observation 2: I fully agree this looks unlikely. But a game of bluff and double bluff seems to have been going on in this case, with an awful lot of acting going on. So personally I don’t rule out altogether that he was a willing patsy. 

Do you think that he was working with/for them, they then turned on him, then they all struck a deal? How could either side trust the other, especially if they have already tried to nail him if this is the case


Surely if they double crossed him that would have been extremely risky as I'm guessing he would have info to throw at them. 

Observation 3: I think the idea of two ‘sides’, or groups, has a great deal of merit. Is it possible that both the ‘McCann group’ and the ‘Murat group’, if there were indeed two such ‘sides’ or groups, could have both been involved in promoting some kind of activity? For example, in any trade, there are usually ‘buyers’ and ‘sellers’. Dr Gerald’s embarrassed, awkward and evasive response to the question: ‘Did you already know Robert Murat? – “I am not going to comment on that” – suggest a prior relationship of some kind. The fact that Praia da Luz had been the venue for lawyer Edward Smethurst’s summer holidays every year since 1999 might also suggest that both Gerald McCann and Robert Murat also knew Smethurst already. Both Murat and Smethurst had expensive property businesses.         


++++++++++

SHARON
 
Why did the McCanns’ main benefactor, Brian Kennedy, meet up with Murat when he was suspected of abducting Madeleine?

Why did Kennedy offer this suspect a job in searching for Madeleine?
 

Observation 4: That’s what he said he did, while he was there meeting Murat and his lawyer on Tuesday 13 November 2007. But with high-powered lawyers on both sides (senior Freemason Edward Smethurst batting for Kennedy and the McCann Team, and top Algarve lawyer Francisco Pagarte batting for Murat, we can be sure that something much, much deeper was going on at this ‘summit meeting’. Were the two ‘sides’ thrashing out a deal?

Why were Murat’s and McCanns’ mobiles switched off simultaneously for 32 hours?

Why has Murat never questioned the McCanns’ claims of abduction?

Why were there at least 17 changes of Murat’s story?
 

Observation 5: No-one has ever come up with a plausible alternative to my suggestion, made years ago, that Murat lied so many times about his movements on 1, 2, 3 and 4 because he was covering up actions he took part in that were somehow connected to Madeleine’s disappearance. The suggestion that he lied systematically to ccover up something else is sheer speculation without any evidence to support it.


Why did Murat’s mother set up a stall to assist the McCanns?

Observation 6: Robert Murat volunteered to translate for the PJ. Whilst doing so, he proposed various unlikely abduction scenarios, and was even spotted trying to sneak a look at confidential police documents on the case. An inspector who observed this conduct had to warm Murat about it and then sent an urgent note to Goncalo Amaral about it. Put that together with Mrs Murat trying to collect evidence from people in the small town at that time and it all looks highly suspicious.

Why, according to a GNR officer, did Mrs Fenn ring Murat when she said she heard a child crying?


Observation 7: Mrs Fenn and Mrs Murat were friends of longstanding. Mrs Fenn ringing Murat about this is merely confirmation of that friendship. That Mrs Fenn was on such good terms with the Murat family should put us on our guard when evaluating her evidence in the case.  

There was never any evidence against Murat as far as an abduction was concerned, he was safe from the start, they all knew that. So no one really threw him to the lions, the press had a number of stories to sell, the McCanns got themselves a bit of extra time and Murat secured a nice little bonus of £600,000.


There are some excellent comments on this thread.

Was Murat part of Team McCann? Did a row break out causing the McCanns, Murat (via Smith) to try frame each other? Or were they trying to stitch each other up from the start?


Observation 8: I think you have mentioned three very plausible scenarios there.

Three things are certain here:

Neither party were interested in finding a real abductor

Both parties benefitted from selling their stories to the media

The media were heavily involved since the McCanns first called Sky Mews just before they called the police (the wrong ones).

How convenient that Lori Campbell was there and that our Prime Minister, whose wife just happened to be linked to a failing charity called Missing People, was able to release the government’s Head of the Media Monitoring Unit, who ‘controls what comes out in the press’, to become spokesman for the McCanns.



++++++++++

BLUEBAG 

I can't believe he agreed to be identified by the mcc team.

I agree. It makes no sense.

Which is why I think he has nothing to do with them.
 If he was involved then why would they point the finger at someone involved?

Observation 9: I do not know, but what we do know is that for whatever reason, four of them did most decidedly point their collective fingers at him, over a period of four days (13 to 15 May 2007). They continued to do so at the ‘confrontation’ meeting organised by the PJ on 11 July, and IIRC at least four others were later brought on stage, so to speak, to back up their claims of Murat being seeing hanging around near the Ocean Club on the night of 3 May.

[The claim that] Jane Tanner has DNA hair characteristics the same as 1/8th of the people in the database [is] almost worthless as evidence….OK...But we don't know what proportion of the database fit that dna characteristic... it's pretty high level. We are talking 8 PROFILES here not 8 people in the database.

8 profiles is still a huge swath of people... how many generations back constitutes a bloodline? Have you ever done the ancestors numbers thing? 2 parents 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents 16…32...64...128...256...512...1024... etc. They are all maternal bloodline (on the maternal side).
That's an enormous amount of people.

I think there are about - quickly guesstimating from the link - 100 (ish) maternal profiles in Europe.

As I said the evidence is mostly worthless and someone is making a mountain out of a molehill.


Observation 10:  I think we must ask ourselves who is most likely to have been the owners of the hairs found in the Sol e Mar apartment in Burgau (where Wojcek Krokowski, the Polish man and his wife were staying) - the ones that were said to be of the same haplotype as Robert Murat and Jane Tanner. I think the answer is clear. The two most likely owners of those hairs are Robert Murat and Jane Tanner. It is certainly possible, however, that the hairs were of some other relative of those two, or someone from the same maternal bloodline etc.   

If indeed these were the hairs of Robert Murat and Jane Tanner, why are they there? I would suggest that the most likely explanation is that these two were present in that apartment sometime after Murat flew to Portugal early on Tuesday 1 May. Jane Tanner later told police that she had seen someone looking exactly like Wojcek Krokowski [see Krokowski and Smithman threads]. Is it possible that she actually met Krokowski that week? -at the Sol e Mar apartment? We certainly need a very good explanation of why both Nuno Lourenco’s and Jane Tanner’s descriptions spoke of the man ‘not looking like a tourist’, ‘wearing cloth jacket and trousers’, having dark hair, similar age and height and so on.



++++++++++

WHODUNIT

In my opinion, the McC team were forced to back off Murat by the Smith sighting of 'Gerry', which occurred very shortly after Murat was named suspect.

Observation 11: The Smiths reported their alleged ‘sighting’ on 16 May, the day after Murat was made an arguido. But Martin Smith’s claim that the man might have been Dr Gerald McCan was not made until 20 September  over 4 months later, and 11 days after he’d seen video footage of him coming down the steps of a plane carrying his son Sean. I think the clue to why the McCann Team ‘backed off’ Murat, as you quite correctly put it, lies within that high-lvel summit meeting between the McCann Team and the Murat Team on 13 November 2007 at the Eveleighs’ villa in Burgau.

Then the deals were struck and now Smith is pro-McC, too. I think there was plenty of circumstantial and other evidence against Murat due to the nature of the tasks he was called on to perform when he was called back to PDL. It would have been used too but the Smith sighting was a cryptic message that TM was just as vulnerable if anybody, namely Murat and his allies, decided they wanted to talk about it.

Observation 12: The Smiths’ conduct being some sort of ‘cryptic message’ to the McCann Team? Yes, IMO, that’s a possible scenario that would fit the facts.

IMO, each side is forced to trust the other by MAD - mutually assured destruction. TMc tried to gain the upper hand, TMurat side fired a salvo to let their opponents know they were not without ammunition and would use it if they had to. Deals were struck, everybody went back to their corner. A few little jabs from either side here and there, like the comments in KM's book and Murat saying last year when being re-questioned: ‘let them come and do a reconstruction' and so forth - but basically everyone has enough ammo to ensure silence all around.

Observation 13: Very credible scenario IMO.

After everything he probably did for them I doubt Murat expected they would try to make a patsy out of him.  On the other hand, his location 150 yards from the scene of the crime just added to his suitability as a patsy.

Observation 14: If you recall, by early 2008 most of the 8 or so people who had asserted that they’d seen Murat hanging around the Ocean Club on the night of 3 May later publicly changed their minds. There was a rash of press stories in January 2008 saying that they might have confused him with David Payne or Angus Symington. These press stories looked as though they emanated from Clarance l Mitchell and the press were certainly and conveniently supplied with a series of photos that made Murat look very similar to David Payne and Angus Symington. Clearly by January 2008, the McCann Team were deliberately taking the heat off Murat. Probably because a nice deal done between the two parties at that 13 November summit meeting

And was offered a job by a member of TM. How is this not suspicous in and of itself and strongly indicative of collusion?

Observation 15: See Observation 4

Any possible connection between Jane Tanner and Murat just adds points in favor of collusion.


++++++++++

LADYINRED

It was Lori Campbell who first pointed the finger at Murat. 


++++++++++

VERDI

There was absolutely no evidence to implicate Robert Murat in the abduction (key word) of MBM so the chances of him ever appearing before a court of law was remote to say the least - anymore than the other two primary suspects!

Observation 16: It might be more accurate to say that “There was absolutely no evidence to implicate Robert Murat in the disappearance of MBM…”

Do you really believe that a Portuguese court would have convicted Murat on the hearsay of a small time UK tabloid journalist and a few less than reliable witnesses who couldn't even manage to get their own stories straight?  Convicted for what - lurking on street corners after dark or resembling a non-existent abductor?  There's far more interesting stuff about Murat to fill the pages than contradictory claims by the few aforementioned about his suspicious movements on the night of 3rd/4th May.
As this forum is so widely read, in the interest of accuracy here is forensic report detail from the PJ files…

Aparthotel Sol e Mar, 2', apartment C - Burgau

As I understand it, the EMPOP database is the global repository of regional profiles of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA).

The person doing the query entered the specific mt DNA characteristics of JT's [Jane Tanner] hair into the query form and found 8 exact matches in the database, i.e. at least eight maternal lines having the identical Haplotype to JT exist in Europe.


There were no exact matches in the other three regional groups.

Because of this result the inquiry could not say with absolute certainty that the hair found in Burgau actually came from JT because it could have come from any person born of a mother belonging to any of the eight profiles in the database - one profile, of course, had to be of JT's maternal line, so it could have been some distant (or close) relative.

The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples, (apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner (JT), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.
 
mccannpjfiles.co.uk

Observation 17: Thank you very much for giving us that reference from the PJ files.

This statement is important, which is why I’ve underlined it above:  “The inquiry could not say with absolute certainty that the hair found in Burgau actually came from JT”.

I would suggest that the true interpretation of this is as follows:

"It is highly probable that it was Jane Tanner’s hair, but it is not absolutely certain”.

I think it is a reasonable working assumption that those hairs were indeed from Robert Murat and Jane Tanner. It is a further reasonable assumption that both attended that flat (where Krokowski was staying) some time that week. As to why each might have been there, then that is speculation at the moment.

As it stands there is no proof that Jane Tanner was ever in the apartment at Burgau, although I can understand an over zealous imagination might lead in that direction.  One hair possibily from Tanner found in the bathroom, out of approx. 150 hairs harvested, hardly confirms a clandestine tryst does it?  Think about it, even if the hair was from Tanner there could be any number of innocent explanations for it being there.

With respect, in your lust to satisfy your own colourful imagination, you've somehow managed to morph one single hair found in a bathroom, that may or may not have come from the body of Jane Tanner, into a swingers’ rave-up involving half the world’s population and a full blown extra-marital ding-dong between Murat and Tanner, without so much as a shred of evidence to support your opinion.

They are adults, what they do with their private lives is entirely their own business - who really cares providing they're not breaking the law.  Even if it be true it hardly warrants the cover-up of a major crime. 

Dancing around the facts doesn't change anything…I'm very happy to say that nothing about this case has personal implications for me, I am but an outside observer so you can rest assured I'm not taking anything personally.

On with the subject matter, there you go again off in the realms of fantasy - there is not a shred of evidence to even suggest that a swingers rave-up was going on at the time of Madeleine's disappearance.  Because some people think it possible and the hypothesis has been widely discussed does not mean it happened, it is but a theory without foundation.


I originally suggested as this forum is widely read, it would be preferable if opinion is based on known facts and/or plausible intelligence rather than based on theory without.  Now do you see my point?  You are of course entitled to your opinions the same as the rest but I don't think it benefits the purpose of this forum to disrupt with wild speculation.

 know some people consider the swinging scenario to be plausible, that is their prerogative and I have no grief with that.  My concern is when people generate nonsense without any foundation whatsoever - such as Murat having a dalliance with Tanner!  That's not even a hunch, more of a wild stab in the dark.

This is just wasting valuable time so if you wouldn't mind we must agree to disagree.  OK?


Besides joyce1938, boundaries are being crossed here which makes even less sense.  As far as I'm aware swinging is a group activity - in the dark ages known as wife swapping, whereas reference to some relationship between Murat and Tanner is a different matter entirely - known as having an affair !?!

Big difference as far as I see it, so what's it to be - either way I can't think of any connection with MBM's disappearance.

Did Murat hastily jet over to PdL because he fancied some communal adult fun or was it because he heard Tanner was staying a few days and fancied a bit of howz yer father with her?  Or did he jet over for some other reason?  I'm inclined to think the latter.


Observation 18: He never gave a convincing reason for the sudden dash to Praia da Luz, and indeed different reasons were proffered by him and his girlfriend, now wife, Michaela Walczuk - to sort out his divorce, or to sort out their new proposed business, ‘Romigen’. If something serious had occurred in Praia da Luz say on Sunday 29 April, that would provide the most obvious explanation.

Thank you tigger for saving me the trouble of raking around looking for confirmation that Murat was also seen lurking around on the night of 3rd/4th

Observation 19: No. See Observation 14 above.

May[be] not only by Tanner but also other members of the group - and Charlotte Pennington if memory serves me well.  Was Murat having a bit of the 'uvver with the whole lot of them - is that what led to them trying to stitch him up?

For the record, I do think that Murat is involved with this mystery but I don't believe his involvement has any connection with Jane Tanner specifically.

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.08.15 17:58

PART TWO

+++++++++++++++++


TINKLER

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-COSTA.htm  This statement has probably been discussed here before, it’s a very telling insight into the young brain of RM. His mother could see no wrong in him regardless what he did, probably remains like that to this day. RM must have been either evil/sick, or both, to carry out these atrocities on a poor defencless animal…yuck!!

Observation 20: Many have tried to dismiss the statements of Carlos Costa. However, like ‘Tinkler’, I have always considered this witness evidence from a family friend, who knew the Murats very well, authentic. It is also quite shocking.

[Replying to ‘Richard IV’]  Murat…Traits of a psychopath imo. Definition of Psychopath…: glibness and superficial charm, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, cunning/manipulative, lack of remorse, emotional shallowness, callousness and lack of empathy, unwillingness to accept responsibility for actions, a tendency to boredom, a parasitic lifestyle. Add to that the abuse and killing of animals for his own gratification. So, after reading the statement ( http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-COSTA.htm ) does anyone else think Mr Murat would make the grade?

ETA…No need to second guess why a criminal profiler working for the police would first point the finger at Murat, with his profile he did the Mc's a huge favour, got paid sweetly for it too. Imo


Observation 21: The ‘criminal profiler’ and his associates seem to have been working on behalf of the British government in targeting Murat. Just as four members of the Tapas 7 were also preparing to target Murat (13 to 16 May). That seems like more than coincidence.


++++++++++

GUEST12345

Murat was framed for a number of reasons:

- A journo thought he was dodgy helping out (based on their views on Ian Huntley)
- The McCanns were desperate to get someone in the frame as eyes and fingers were starting to point to them more and more, especially by the PJ
- The media and McCanns were desperate for answers, so were grasping at any opportunity to get them

The biggest reason for me, as to why he was thrown to the wolves...

His connection to the group and their 'activities', most importantly Murat’s 'activities' with Tanner...who was disgruntled with him and along with her desire for her 5 mins of fame and hunger for attention, decided to be the 'hero who identified the horrible man' - Murat…
my thought/theory on this is that Murat was having intimate relations with Tanner, hence both their DNA being found in an apartment away from Luz. 

Observation 22: These so-called ‘activities’ between Murat and Tanner are sheer speculation. But if you said that he was ‘thrown to the wolves’ because of ‘his connections to the [McCann group], that seems a most plausible hypothesis.

Problem was, there was nothing on Murat at all in terms of evidence of any wrongdoing to Madeleine, only questions about his activities and connection to the Tapas group.

Observation 23: Yes.

Exactly, I have no doubt that there were multiple 'interactions' going on on that holiday, hence why GM knew Murat (although as you have observed, he uncomfortably avoided admitting it on camera).

Observation 24: See Observation 3.

It also explains why he was so keen to help the Tapas group out so much in the early stages...until he got fingered as the guilty party. At that point, it was every man for themselves.

Re: Tanner and Murats relationship...i wouldn't know, but IMO i'm sure the 'interactions' and relationship history/times/locations are all in the non-public files. IMO (and that of many others) there were many swinging activities going on within that resort and IMO Murat was also in it up to his neck, hence the DNA findings of him and Tanner in the same location (which had to travel from the resort), the strange phone activities of the group (and Murat) and the reason why he was allowed to be so close to the Tapas group and family in the early hours/days.
 

Observation 25: ‘Swinging’ was mentioned as a ‘certainty’ by one Portuguese official (can’t recall the name) and a swinging holiday would explain quite a lot; very few of those on that holiday would readily admit to ‘swinging’. But there’s zero actual evidence of it AFAIK. 

Think about it...if your child had been taken, would you allow a local complete stranger close to you and your family to 'help out'...no, you would be asking "who is this guy??" and would want an official translator who had been vetted. 

Observation 26: A good point.

IMO Murat was well known to the Tapas group, in particular Tanner, who,for some reason, decided to stitch him up and get her moment of glory.
 

Observation 27: See my comments at Observation 1. IMO Tanner was part of a big team who purposed to ‘finger’ Murat and cause him to become an arguido. 

IMO MBM was killed early evening on the fateful night, no later than 7pm, very quickly after the parents went out for the evening, but not removed from the apartment until 9.15, hence movement of the cadaver around the apartment and clean up. IMO the parents never went into the apartment that night, at most listened outside the window for any noise...maybe once.

Observation 28: I think all I want to and can say about that paragraph is that I don’t agree with a word of it.

RM’s prompt return to PDL was IMO not related to MBM at all, it was to resolve a personal matter, but as he became a suspect, all of his movement/activities became viewed as odd.


Observation 29. Nor can I agree with that. See Observation 18 above.

No, I don’t think RM had any knowledge of what happened at the time. I do however think he has been deemed an important witness as he spent time around the resort and has local knowledge of faces and places, hence his repeat questioning.

Hope this helps:
 

DNA testing showed that samples identically matched the mitochondrial DNA of Jane Tanner and Robert Murat (Processo no 2007/000565/PT-B). 

The reports in question were provided by the Servicos de Genetica e Biologia Forense based in Lisbon at the request of Paulo Rebelo. When we talk about hair samples and hair haplotypes we are talking about mtDNA profiles and a system (called haplogroups) that illustrate how these profiles relate to common ancestry groups. 

One human cell contains two types of DNA - nuclear and mitochondrial. mtDNA is inherited from a mother to a child. Surprisingly, mtDNA analysis is more sensitive than nuclear DNA profiling. 

The samples found in the Solimar [Sol e Mar] apartments were identical haplotype matches to Tanner and Murat. This means that the samples were either from them or two people having the same maternal bloodline.

Not 1/8th of the database entirety.

Proving her DNA/hair was there (or an 'almost match) is do-able, proving how/what/what went on there based on that, is a lot harder, hence it can only be my 'opinion' that they were physically connected.


Observation 30: I can agree with you that the4 two hairs very probably were those of Robert Murat and Jane Tanner but this cannot be said ‘with absolute certainty’, as the PJ files confirm. See Observation 17.   

Regardless of the hair/DNA, i am still firmly of the opinion that there was an intimate connection between Tanner and Murat and that Murat was known/had interacted with others in the Tapas group.


Observation 31: Speculation without evidence. There was a claim, of course, that Robert Murat had filed papers suing Tanner for damages for wrongly implicating him. I am far from satisfied that any writ was actually ever issued. Maybe it was one of those things that was all sorted out at that 13 November 2007 ‘summit meeting’. Possibly Murat threatened to sue?  

i am not aware of any of Tanner’s relatives, or bloodlines visiting the apartment?? Therefore either someone related to her did and is keeping quiet, or she did, but it can't be said why/when.

Observation 32. Yes, see Observation 17.

As stated before, the DNA/hair discussion only helps add weight to the argument that Murat was ingrained with the Tapas group. As also stated before, it is..IMO that him and Tanner were intimate and that some disagreement between the 2 of them led to her stitching him up.
 

Observation 33. No. See above. A whole team of people seems to have been invoved in stitching up Murat, saying he was the abductor. 

Verdi, not sure why you are taking this so personally and having sarcastic jibes. To re-clarify...

IMO Murat was intimately involved with Tanner and is known well to the group which is why she fingered him for some personal reason, why he was so keen to help out, why the Tapas group let him become involved in assisting them and the police, why the police think he is an important witness (what had he seen with his time there on the holiday?)
IMO there was swinging going on on that holiday with the tapas group and the wider circle and I don't for one minute think I am alone with that theory, either on forums or in police offices.
IMO the hair theory only adds to the possibility that Murat was closer to Tanner than publicly perceived, I never stated that it was the entire reason and that the evidence would stand up in court (as the DNA wasn't 100% conclusive, much like the DNA in the boot of the car etc etc etc).
 

Observation 34: Evidence of Murat being linked with some members of the Tapas group? - Yes. Evidence of an intimate Murat/Tanner relationship? – all you have is two hairs.  

IMO means in my opinion. I never stated this was fact, it's theory.

With regards to the "who cares what they do, they are adults" blah blah dig, no, I do not care if they were all 'raving swingers' at all, each to their own, however, the police would be more than interested, for a number of reasons...it would explain why Tanner fingered Murat, it would discredit timelines, add weight to any neglect charges, help track movements, explain any DNA anomalies, help provide behavioural profiles of those involved, assist in identifying any tensions within the group etc etc etc etc 

 

++++++++++

JOYCE1938  

I believe…Robert was exonerated of anything to do with mbm  

Observation 35: Murat, like the McCanns, had his arguido status dropped in July 2008, the Attorney-General stating that there was insufficient evidence to charge anyone. I am not aware of any other ‘exoneration’. There is no evidence that Murat caused Madeleine’s disappearance. But there is plenty of doubt about his actions after jetting out to Portugal at 7am on 1 May.

 

++++++++++

CARRY ON DOCTOR 

All very interesting.....

And this would then connect the response from GM when asked on camera about RM..."I'm not going to comment on that".
 

Observation 36. Yes, see Observation 3.

So did a Tanner / Murat relationship go some way back before the holiday ? This has probably been discussed here before?  Do you have any thoughts on when MBM met her fate, and did this have significance to RM's prompt return to PDL? Depending on your answer, do you think RM had full knowledge of what had happened at the time?  Thanks 

Yes, and an interpreter to facilitate an exchange of information that could suit a cause…Perhaps unwittingly 

Observation 37: It is Murat’s conduct as a translator which raises so many suspicions about why he was there at the right place and time to make himself available. See Observation 6. Here is the inspector’s full report:
 

As you will know, Sir, on this day at 11h30, there appeared before the undersigned and (lady) Inspector Patricia Duarte, a British citizen called Diane Webster, holder of UK passport XXXXXXX, in order to hear her witness statement.

In the course of an informal approach that preceded that work, it was determined that she was not conversant in Portuguese, written or spoken, and the service of an English-speaking interpreter was therefore called for.

In this function appeared a British citizen, Robert J.Q.E. Murat
(duly identified in the files from previous work)
, official resident of Casa Liliana, Rua Ramalhete, Praia da Luz, Lagos.

The work
[the DW interview]
being concluded, and during an informal conversation that the undersigned began with that interpreter (as would be characteristic in this type of situation), Robert Murat displayed an unusual curiosity about the investigation that was developing around the disappearance of the minor Madeleine McCann that occurred on 3 May 2007.

As an example, it will be proper to point out that he has insistently and repeatedly questioned me about the identity of possible suspects, about the strategy outlined by the lead coordinator of the investigation and the work that might possibly have been considered for the coming days.



Before
[faced with] such an attitude, that was so unusual and absolutely inappropriate that I immediately became highly suspicious, I always countered [ducked the questions], insistently requesting that person to be aware of the contractual duties pertaining to the role which he has assumed in this investigation, pointing out that it was presently the inquiry phase, and, naturally, covered by judicial secrecy.

It behoves me further to state that that suspicion became even more consolidated, following the fact that I became aware that Robert Murat would covertly attempt to catch glimpses of various procedural pieces
[items being prepared for the case file] that make up the present inquiry, to the point that I followed my own consultation [hunch],
in order to conduct the Diane Webster interview.

Finally, and in the sense of reiterating the suspicious attitude shown by Robert Murat, I venture still to state that, beyond having manifested an enormous knowledge about the dynamics inherent in the functioning of the "Ocean Club Garden" (in which the events under investigation had taken place) and of the routines followed by the McCann family and their companions during their respective stays in in Praia da Luz, he has tried persistently to influence the conduct of the present investigation, suggesting various analyses the agreement with which
[i.e. had they agreed to follow those suggested lines of inquiry] could be intended to impute the consummation of the present illegal act [the missing child]
to foreign third parties [i.e. to put the blame on, or to attribute the blame to, outside foreigners].

The above being exposed
[laid bare] - and without intending in any way to place in question the competence of the above individual, nor the slightest imputation that that [my suspicions] was what he wanted to be [actually intended to do] - I have to bring the above incidents to your attention, in order for you to determine what may be appropriate.


11 May 2007
InspectorPedro Varanda


 

++++++++++

LOMBARDYSKEPTIK 

I've never ready anything posted as a theory or evidence of his involvement that convinces me he was involved in any way

Observation 38:  As far as I can see, ‘LombardySkeptik’, who is now a member of another place, only ever comes here to put a spanner in the works when things get interesting.
 

++++++++++

TIGGER 

FOR THE PROFILERS, MURAT IS THE GUILTY PARTY [from Goncalo Amaral's book]
 
Since Murat's first interview, which they attended, the specialists have continued to refine the profile of the suspect. They have heard about the statement from one of his so-called childhood friends, put on file by the police department: according to him, Murat had an affirmed penchant for bestiality. [..]This individual describes Murat as someone violent with behavioural problems, a sexual pervert, sadist, and misanthropist. We are somewhat sceptical. All the same, according to the English profilers, there is a 90% chance that he is the guilty party. That seems to us to be a bit too easy. We think that drawing conclusions based essentially on the statement of an ex-convict is rather dangerous.

As if the memory of the McCann family's friends suddenly came back to them, all - Rachael Mampilly, wife of Matthew Oldfield, Fiona Payne, wife of David Payne, and Russell O'Brien Jane Tanner's partner - recall having seen Murat on the night of May 3rd, shortly after the announcement of the disappearance, in the immediate vicinity apartment 5A. Meanwhile, of course, Murat's picture has been shown on television and in certain newspapers. They themselves were in direct contact with him during the previous days. However, it is only on May 16th that they deliver this information to us. As for the officers of the National Guard who were on the spot, they didn't see him that night, only the next morning, when he came to offer his services as interpreter.

On July 11th at 10am, a confrontation is organised between the witnesses - Rachael Mampilly, Fiona Payne and Russell O'Brien - and Robert Murat. Nothing new comes out of it. The former persist in stating that the suspect was definitely in the area on the night of the disappearance. Murat denies the whole thing and even accuses them of lying. Each side stands its ground. The only positive aspect of this meeting: the McCanns' friends undertake to return to Portugal for the purpose of the investigation. That will not happen.
 

Observation 39: This extract from Goncalo Amaral’s book highlights better than anywhere else how this ‘Get Murat!’ operation seems to have been carefully planned and carried out by a whole team.  

 

++++++++++

HELENMEG 

Yes - I also believe that swinging was going on during that week - or at least I would call it an 'organised week for like minded adults (of a similar social status) who enjoyed a liberal lifestyle - with additional childcare laid on to ensure that all children were supervised and looked after so that they too could have a great week.

We have to bea in mind there is quite a lot of organised ‘resistance’ to this idea and a concerted attempt to pour scorn over the theory. However, I think the theory evolved for a lot of good reasons… 


Off the top of my head...
1. Similar status adults (60 of them) all descend upon PdL Ocean Club that week (low season mediocre resort)
2. Ocean Club appears to have large amount of support staff that week including much childcare
3. PJ computer searches used *swinging
4. Statements from Tapas 9 + other guests
5. Attempts to pour scorn on swinging theory or very telling -
6. Ocean Club amending the creche records/booking sheets etc indicating a wish to cover up...

Much more than I can think of right now...


Observation 40: It is certainly possible from that list to argue that ‘swinging’ is consistent with that list - but none of it amounts to actual evidence

If Robert was part of the organisation of the week, or the 'management' of it - albeit nothing to do with death etc.,



Observation 41: He was in England at the start of the week. He was called over on the Monday (30 April) and went over the following day early in the morning. I can’t see from that that there is any evidence of his managing or organising all these dozens of guests; the things we know of importance are:

1…that he was called to PdL at short notice on the Monday, and

2…he lied about what he did when he went over there on the Tuesday.

In addition, there is a strong inference that Murat already knew Dr Gerald McCann (Observation 3).      

 

then it explains his involvement in this and his acqaintance with some of the guests.  After all, this week of adult activity...

 

Observation 42: An assumption.

 

was not illegal, just like minded adults having fun and ensuring their kids were well looked after and also having fun. What’s wrong with that? A few high profile people involved - no problem - a bit of networking - everyone can be assured everyone else will be discreet. No problems - until something happens to a small child. No-one wants a PJ investigation to highlight what was going on that week. They all agree to keep that quiet... no-one wants their names in the tabloids.

Credit to Textusa for highlighting much of the info regarding PJ searches on computers/Ocean Club records/Myth of ‘Big round table’/reservation sheets for Tapas dinners/statements of guests etc. etc.


 

Observation 43. I agree that in some of her posts she has brought some very useful research together

 


++++++++++

RICHARD IV

 

@ tinkler: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-COSTA.htm


Don`t forget this statement peeps - quite relevant afaic.


 

Observation 44: Agreed. See Observation 20.

 


++++++++++

CBEAGLE

 

If Tanner did know Murat, then that makes a huge impact on the case, suddenly someone in the Tapas 9 has access to a car, apartments and local knowledge.

 


++++++++++

GET’EMGONCALO

 

….and a fridgefreezer

 

Observation 45: Exactly the same applies if Robert Murat and Dr Gerald McCann already knew each other before that week

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by sallypelt on 22.08.15 18:11

Robert Murat was an interpreter and, therefore,  should have been impartial. I would have kicked him to the curb as soon as he started interfering. It isn't any wonder that people became suspicious of him. There is something dodgy about him, imo. I have often questioned why the son of a successful property business man comes to the UK to work in a chicken factory.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.08.15 18:20

@sallypelt wrote:Robert Murat was an interpreter and, therefore,  should have been impartial. I would have kicked him to the curb as soon as he started interfering. It isn't any wonder that people became suspicious of him. There is something dodgy about him, imo. I have often questioned why the son of a successful property business man comes to the UK to work in a chicken factory.
Turkeys, wasn't it? "Bernard Matthews' Turkey Roast - bootifol"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT4UlrntZr8


++++++++++++++++++

Robert Murat biography, from my long article about him (2010):


What Murat said about his background and history in his first police interview (14 May 2007)

What did Murat tell the police about his background and history when he was first interviewed by the Portuguese Police on 14 May?

He was asked to give his occupation. Despite later claiming he made a living from selling real estate by advertising on the Internet, Murat told police he was ‘unemployed’.

He said he had no criminal record, had never been charged with any crime, nor even arrested. Although born in London, his parents had moved to Canada when he was just two weeks old, returning to the U.K. in 1979, when Robert was six.  His father died when he was twelve; thereafter he lived with his mother in Portugal, living in Lagos and Alrnádena.

In recent years Murat had also lived in England, mainly in Norfolk and, before that, in Sidford, Devon. He had an elder sister, Samantha, then aged 35, and a younger brother, Richard, then aged 28, who had both lived with him and his mother in Portugal. They now both live in England. Murat said he had four nephews, adding that he comes from a happy family with good relationships all round and frequent contact with them all. 

Murat went to school in Espiche, and then attended the International School at Porches and after that Secondary School in Lagos. Since then he had been on some technical and professional courses, including an accountancy course in the U.K.
He seems to have left school early, and in his teens admitted to ‘often’ drinking and taking drugs. He appears to have left Portugal for England sometime in his late teens. 


Whilst living in the south of England, he worked as a care assistant for elderly people, and then on the search and rescue of shipwrecks. He said he had a few ‘fleeting’ relationships with females. More important, it was here in 1992 that he met his future wife, Dawn Chapman, when he was 19 years old and she was 27. It was during this time, apparently, that he had a motorbike accident, crashing into a wall, where he lost his right eye.

It seems that he moved to Norfolk in 1994, where he lived with Dawn. They bought a modest, semi-detached, three-bedroom house in the village of Hockering. At that time, Dawn already had a son aged six. She got divorced, and the couple married at Gretna Green in March 2001. Their daughter S____ was born 18 months later, in late 2002. Murat once described her as ‘the spitting image of Madeleine’. 

In Norfolk, he had a variety of jobs, including that of a salesman for a glazing and windows company, a factory worker in the meat business at Bernard Matthews’ factory at Lenwade, and a car salesman, working first for Inchcape and then for the Desira car dealership in Norwich, selling Nissans, Alfa Romeos, Fiats and Citroens. After a while he became an accepted translator for Norfolk Police, frequently translating for the increasing numbers of Portuguese working in the agricultural sector in Norfolk. 

The couple moved to Portugal in late 2004 or early 2005 but soon separated his wife and daughter returning to live in England in the August of that year. It seems that as soon as he moved to Portugal, he immediately became involved in selling and dealing in property.  

Murat then told the police he had been making regular trips back to England to see his daughter - in October and November 2005, then again in May, June, November and December 2006. He said he made a further visit to England in January 2007. He had gone back to England again in March, when he stayed with his grandmother in Devon, returning to Portugal, as we will examine shortly, on Tuesday 1 May, two days before Madeleine was reported missing. 

He added that when in the U.K. he generally stayed either with his grandmother or his sister. As a matter of interest, Murat’s sister Samantha owns two homes, one in Sidmouth and one in Exeter (both in Devon). Her Exeter home is less than a mile from the house where Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien, two of the so-called ‘Tapas 9’ group of the McCanns and their holiday friends, live. Strangely, Tanner and O’Brien are also near neighbours of James and Charlotte Gorrod, who were also at the resort at the same time as the ‘Tapas 9’. Indeed, the Gorrods travelled out to Praia da Luz on the same plane as the McCanns on 28 April. 

Soon after Murat moved to Portugal, he joined the Remax property company in April 2005 and worked there on two separate contracts during 2005 as a Sales Executive. In between, from September to November, he worked for portuguesehomes.com  

He seems to have been popular, but apparently left suddenly stating that he had to go ‘for personal reasons’. It was whilst working at Remax, Murat said, that he became instantly attracted to another member of the sales staff, Michaela Walczuk, a German-born Jehovah's Witness with a Polish surname. She also used the name Matias, believed to have been from a former marriage. 

At the time, however, she was married to Mr Luis Antonia, whom we shall discuss further below.

Around one year later, Murat is understood to have moved into the apartment she shared with her husband Luis Antonio, apparently with his full agreement. He either stayed there or was a frequent visitor for the next few months. During this time it seems that Michaela Walczuk also began to spend a lot of time at Murat’s mother’s house, ‘Casa Liliana’.

What Mrs Jennifer Murat told the police about her son

What did Mrs Jennifer Murat, Robert’s mother, tell the police about her and her son?

Jennifer Murat said she was born 1936, nee Eveleigh, at Sidmouth in Devon. She came to live in Portugal nearly 40 years ago, in 1968 or 1969. Her late husband, John Murat, had bought a house in Burgau. She now speaks good Portuguese. She had helped her husband in his property business, but when there was a crisis in the business, on 25 April 1974, she began work as a nurse - her original profession - in Lagos Hospital. At that time her son Robert was about one year old.

She’d had three children, Samantha in 1971, Robert in 1973 and finally Richard in 1979. She said Robert had been born in London but within a month they came over to Portugal to live at Atalaia, Lagos.  

In 1981, when Robert would be about eight years old, she and her three children left Atalaia and went to live at Almadena, a five-acre property with several houses in ruins on it. (It appears that by this time Murat’s parents had separated). These ruins were rebuilt and let out as holiday accommodation for tourists. They stayed there until 2002, when she moved to her present address in Praia da Luz. By that time, she had a new partner, from whom she had since separated. He had gone to live in France. 

She said that Robert’s only health problem was a visual problem that resulted in him losing the sight of his right eye. He had been diagnosed at the age of about nine with a detached retina, apparently of traumatic origin. It must presumably have been some kind of very severe blow to the head. She did not mention the motorcycle accident as the cause of the damage to his right eye.

Surgery did not save his right eye, from which he could not now see. He also had a thyroid malfunction. When he was about 10 years old, he had had an injury to his right knee which required surgery at a hospital in England. The only medicine she was aware that Robert took was Levothyroxine, daily, for his thyroid problem. 

She said that it was in Norwich that her son met and later married his wife Dawn, whom she said was about 10-12 years older than him. Dawn already had a son by her first marriage, now aged 20. She understood that the son changed his name to Murat on their marriage. Robert and Dawn had a daughter in 2002, but separated ‘the following year’ [2003], apparently on amicable terms. She said that during the period Robert lived in England, he would usually visit Portugal about three times a year.

Mrs Murat said that on her mother’s death in 2003, she inherited her house in Sidmouth, Devon.  She said that when Robert travels to England, he stays in that house and is renovating it. 

In 2003, she said, Robert came to live in Portugal with his wife Dawn and baby, intending to settle there. But it didn’t work out, she says because Dawn found the language problem and being away from family and friends too difficult.  She adds that soon afterwards Robert began working in the property business, initially for Remax then for ‘Portuguese Homes’. Later, she said, he went back to work for Remax for a second period.  She said that that occurred because Robert didn’t think he was being paid enough, and wasn’t receiving the commissions to which he was entitled. He then began a project selling property on the Internet with his new girlfriend Michaela Walczuk. Michaela, a Portuguese national, already had a daughter aged about eight or nine called T______.  Murat knew that Michaela was married to and living with a man called Luis and that she was a Jehovah’s Witness.

The two accounts of Murat’s early life tally in most respects; Mrs Murat may have got one or two dates wrong.

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by notlongnow on 22.08.15 19:36

I have no idea whether swinging was going on, but if I remember rightly one of the PJ thought this was the case.
If my memory is right, I can't see that they would say it without some firm kind of info, so don't think putting the theory forward is fantasy land.

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by BlueBag on 22.08.15 19:53

@notlongnow wrote:If my memory is right, I can't see that they would say it without some firm kind of info, so don't think putting the theory forward is fantasy land.
Which Policeman?

What firm info?

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Re: Robert Murat - Exactly why did the McCann Team point the finger at him?

Post by notlongnow on 22.08.15 20:46



Around 21.38secs, just seen he was ex police

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