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Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by skyrocket on 07.01.16 18:03

@kaz and @Get'EmGoncalo - thanks for the references. I will have a good read and see what 'Q' had to say about the DNA.

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by Verdi on 07.01.16 20:14

@kaz wrote:@ Skyrocket

Firstly I know absolutely NOTHING about DNA so as soon  as I have asked  the question I'm about to,  I'll don my bulletproof vest. You write:

 ''.................Profile identified by letter "C", present in 53 samples, was identical to that of Kate Healy, mother of the victim, meaning those samples were from her or from someone having the same maternal bloodline. ......................''


Is it possible that the 53 samples were from  BOTH 'mini - me ' and Kate? Hence Madeleine's DNA was actually present?
As the years go passing by, the issue of Madeleine's DNA has I believe become rather distorted, largely I think because people want to add substance to a notion that apartment 5a was subjected to a a deep clean in order to destroy any trace of Madeleine.  This is of course ridiculous - Madeleine was undoubtedly present in apartment 5a at some stage so it's expected that forensic evidence of that presence would exist.  Any clean-up operation would have been to destroy evidence of a crime, not of Madeleine's existence.

Initially the collection of DNA samples from the McCanns, their friends and anyone known to have been in the apartment (including Ocean Club staff, the GNR etc) was to identify the presence of DNA that shouldn't be at the crime scene, unknown persons and/or material evidence - in short, the process of elimination.  This is normal policing procedure.  A clean reference sample of Madeleine's DNA was later required by the PJ to match against Gerry, Kate and the twins to confirm biological parentage in order to rule out parental abduction.

As the PJ investigation progressed and the British dogs were deployed, naturally a clean reference sample of Madeleine's DNA was required to match against any forensic evidence harvested as a result of the dog alerts - this IMO is where it starts to get very murky, primarily because of the source of Madeleine's reference samples and because out of all the samples sent to the FSS for analysis, not one single positive was forthcoming. 

A clean reference sample taken from a 'possible' saliva stain from a pillow case that mysteriously appeared,  said to have come from the McCanns Rothley home, matched against a blood spot contained in a cardboard frame (sent to FSS by Leicester police), also mysteriously appeared from who knows where.   Maybe GM collected the pillow case when he returned to the UK in May 2007, maybe not - whatever, the method of producing a clean reference sample to assist in a criminal investigation appears rather unorthodox in terms of customary policing procedures - but that's another matter altogether.  This case stinks from the very beginning which encourages the imaginative to invent any number of theories but sometimes it's best to stick to basics rather than let the imagination run riot - no matter how tempting..

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by joyce1938 on 07.01.16 23:20

The blood sample was usually taken in hospital from all newborns and it seems that was the one that was given to police,cant think of any other way it was selected ,but it was the regular thing to do for many years ,I think was tested for an illness,as far as I recall. joyce1938

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by worriedmum on 07.01.16 23:35

I am still mystified by the idea that Gerry McCann was asked to provide Madeleine's DNA sample from home unaccompanied. Is this really true?

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.01.16 0:02

@worriedmum wrote:I am still mystified by the idea that Gerry McCann was asked to provide Madeleine's DNA sample from home unaccompanied.

Is this really true?
NO.

He was accompanied by a police officer. The date was Monday 21 May. Whether the police officer actually followed him into the bedroom where the pillow was, AFAIK we have not been told.

However, whilst we are on the very important general subject of (a) why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Praia da Luz, and (b) Gerry McCann's visit to his Rothley home to collect Madeleine's DNA Britain, there remains the question of whether or not it was Madeleine's DNA on that pillow...

...or Amelie's?

See the official report, copied with due acknowledgement once again to Nigel Moore of mccannfiles.com

======================
 

WEST YORKSHIRE, LS22 7DN

FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: Det Supt Prior
Client: Leicestershire Police, New Parks
Police reference: 07/06085 Operation TASK
Laboratory reference:
Order reference: 300 555190
Scientist:400 913 609
Scientist: LESLEY DENTON
Number of pages: 2

Re: Abduction of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007

A DNA profile has been obtained from the reference samples of Kate HEALY (51162896) and Gerald McCANN (51162897).

A DNA profile has also been obtained from a pillowcase (SJM/1).

DNA profiling reveals a series of bands, half of which a child inherits from their natural mother (maternal) and half of which ït ïnherits from their natural father (paternal).

In this case, all of the bands present in the profïle of abtained from the pillowcase are represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is what I would expect to find if the profile obtained from the pillowcase originated from a natural child of theirs.

The results of the DNA profife obtaïned from the pïllowcase is approximately 29 million times more likely if the profïle originates form a natural child of theirs rather than someone unrelated to them.

In my opinion, the results detailed above provide extremely strong support for the view that the profile obtained from the pillowcase originated from a natural child of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN.

Please note: I understand that the McCANN's have a second female child. It therefore remains a formal possibility that the DNA on the pillowcase could have originated from her as the genetics would be in keeping with those described above.

If I can be of further assitance or you require a CJA statement please do not hesitate to contact me at the laboratory on 01XXX XXXXXX.

Yours sincerely

Lesley Anne Denton
FORENSIC SCIENTIST
Date: 28 June 2007

____________________

                            "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?" - Amelie, May 2007 -  "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?"


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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by worriedmum on 08.01.16 0:53

Thank you for clarifying that, Tony. Surely it is normal scientific practice to compare the sample against a control-in this case, Amelie's as she is the other female child of both parents? This would then establish whether the sample was an accurate specimen of Madeleine's DNA?

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by Verdi on 08.01.16 1:01

@TonyBennett wrote:  "He was accompanied by a police officer. The date was Monday 21 May. Whether the police officer..."


Could you do me a very big favour by filling in a gap and providing a verified source for that piece of information - as in official source, not some tabloid bias report courtesy of the Murdoch empire?  Never seen anything myself to reassure me that it is indeed fact.

Thanks.

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by Verdi on 08.01.16 1:16

@joyce1938 wrote:The blood sample was usually taken in hospital from all newborns and it seems that was the one that was given to police,cant think of any other way it was selected ,but it was the regular thing to do for many years ,I think was tested for an illness,as far as I recall. joyce1938
As far as I'm aware the blood spot in a cardboard frame has always been presumed to be a heel prick test (a Guthrie card) taken at birth (optional).  I have never seen anything to verify that presumption although it may be factual.  The heel prick test is for medical reasons only, in the unlikely event of a Guthrie card being required by the UK police in connection with a criminal investigation it can only be accessed through a court of law - whether or not this transpired is a matter of conjecture, however I am surprised that the official police/forensic service records refer to the object as a 'blood spot in a cardboard frame' as opposed to 'a heel prick test/Guthrie card'.

Considering the fishy provenance of the Rothley pillow case, I can't help but be sceptical about this mysterious blood spot in a cardboard frame.  I could of course be wrong.

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by skyrocket on 08.01.16 8:13

@TB and @worriedmum

For some reason Lesley Anne Denton sent 2 separate reports dated 28 June 2007. The first is the one reproduced above by @TB, and the second is below:


THE FORENSIC SCIENCE SERVICE
WETHERBY LABORATORY, SANDBECK WAY, AUDBY LANE, WETHERBY, WEST YORKSHIRE, LS22 7DN


FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: Det Supt Prior

Client: Leicestershire Police, New Parks

Police reference: 07/06085 Operation TASK

Laboratory reference: 300 655 190

Order reference: 400 922 755

Scientist: Lesley Denton

Number of pages: 2

Re: Abduction of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007

A DNA profile has been obtained from the reference samples of Amelie Eve McCANN (SBM/2) and Sean Michael McCANN (SBM/3).

In this case, all of the bands present in the profiles of both Amelie McCANN and Sean McCANN are represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is what I would expect to find if Amelie McCANN and Sean Michael McCANN were their natural children.

Neither the DNA profile of Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN matches that from the pillowcase (SJM/1) and therefore in my opinion, neither Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN can be the source of this profile.

If I can be of further assistance or you require a CJA statement please do not hesitate to contact me at the laboratory on 01937 548287.

Yours sincerely,

Lesley Ann Denton
FORENSIC SCIENTIST
Date: 28 June 2007



So SJM/1 DNA profile (from the pillowcase and identical to the one from the blood sample) is from a natural daughter of KM and GM, but is not from Amelie McCann. Therefore, this specific DNA profile has to be that of MBM, or theoretically from a third unknown natural daughter.

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.01.16 9:33

@Verdi wrote:@Tony Bennett wrote:  "He was accompanied by a police officer. The date was Monday 21 May. Whether the police officer..."

Considering the fishy provenance of the Rothley pillow case, I can't help but be sceptical about this mysterious blood spot in a cardboard frame.  I could of course be wrong. Could you do me a very big favour by filling in a gap and providing a verified source for that piece of information - as in official source, not some tabloid bias report courtesy of the Murdoch empire?  Never seen anything myself to reassure me that it is indeed fact.

Thanks.
I have searched for well over half-an-hour for verifiable information that a police officer accompanied Gerry McCann when he went to collect a pillow case but I have not yet been able to.

These are however my findings this morning:

STATEMENTS (UNVERIFIED) MADE BY INTERNET FORUM MEMBERS

"This is why Gerry went back to UK to get Madeleine's pillow case which only she will have slept on, or at least this is probable.  Gerry had a policeman with him at that time".

"The idea behind going to Rothley to get a sample was to have something they were certain was Madeleine's in order to be able to identify the samples they found in the apartment, car etc. So they could for example take a hair from Gerry McCann and know for certain it was his, compare it with the samples found in PDL and know what was his and what was not. We do not know under what circumstances the pillow was retrieved by Gerry McCann. Did the policeman physically go into the bedroom with him or did he wait downstairs ? Was it a friendly, sympathetic visit by the policeman or was it an "official" visit? I was looking at two of my boys who share a bedroom this morning, they had swapped beds so were lying on each others pillows! My other child takes the dog to his bedroom although this is against house rules, but I bet if we DNA tested his pillow they would tell me I had given birth to a dog. So there is room for doubt about that sample, in my opinion. My last job before leaving the house for a holiday is always to change the bed clothes, so we return to nice clean beds. I know lots of people who do that or others who take all the clothes off and leave the beds "air" while they are away. The pillowcase retrieval would not work for any of us".

"As I said...I know nothing about DNA etc., but Gerry was going to the U.K. for some reason, probably to instruct Carter Ruck to sue someone and was asked to collect a sample of Madeleine's DNA from Rothley, hence the pillowcase. He was supposedly accompanied by a LP Officer".


A SELECTION OF CONTEMPORARY NEWSPAPER ARTICLES FROM 20 TO 24 MAY 2007, ALL OF WHICH MENTION GERRY ATTENDING THE WAR MEMORIAL IN ROTHLEY, AND HIS EMOTIONAL RETURN TO 'LOOK FOR PHOTOGRAPHS', BUT I CAN'T FIND ANY OF THEM WHICH REFER TO COLLECTING MADELEONE'S DNA

Daily Mail (no longer available online) 20 May 2007

Seventeen days after his four-year-old daughter disappeared, Gerry McCann flew back to an empty house that is still fresh with her memory.

Her room is as she left it when the family set off on their holiday to Portugal last month. Her toys are still there on the bed, her clothes in the wardrobe.

But with remarkable fortitude, the 38-year-old consultant embarked on a heart-rending mission in his ceaseless campaign to find his little girl.

He will trawl through four years of family albums and videos to select new pictures of her for his 'Find Madeleine' website. Then he will prepare to return to the Algarve to continue the search.


From Evening Standard 21 May No online link 

Quoting friend Andrew Renwick, talking about Gerry's trip back to Rothley:

'Mr Renwick went on: "He felt he had to go back to do the practical things. There are bills that need to be paid. The family need more clothes and he wants to get more photographs of Madeleine to help in the search. He also wanted to meet organisers of the trust to go over documents."'


Madeleine police plea for photos BBC News - Last Updated: Tuesday, 22 May 2007, 11:58 GMT 12:58 UK

Tourists who have visited the Algarve resort where Madeleine McCann was abducted are being asked to send their holiday photographs to British police.

They want anyone who was in the Praia da Luz area in the two weeks before the four-year-old disappeared on 3 May to send their photos to a new website.

Officers will cross-reference them with a database of UK paedophiles.

Madeleine's father Gerry has returned to Portugal to rejoin his wife and children after a brief trip to the UK.



Yellow tributes

Mr McCann arrived back in Praia Da Luz on Tuesday morning after his one-day visit home.

During his trip, Mr McCann visited the family's home village of Rothley, Leicestershire, where he saw the thousands of yellow ribbons, tributes, flowers and cuddly toys left by the public.

He spoke to some of the people
who had gathered to show their support and tied his own yellow ribbon, which has become a symbol of hope for Madeleine.

As well as meeting organisers of the campaign to find her, it is believed his visit was also intended to enable the family to stay in Portugal for the foreseeable future.



FROM THE PORTUGUESE POLICE FILES 

SOURCE: Processo 10 - VOLUME Xa; PDF page 160-165; Case file pages 2653-2658. FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: D/Supt PRIOR
Customer: New Parks Police Station,
Leicestershire Constabulary
Police reference: Operation Task
Laboratory reference: 300 655 190
Order reference: 400 932 184
Scientist: JOHN ROBERT LOWE
Number of pages: 6

Re: the abduction of Madeleine McCann

This report summarises the results of DNA profiling tests conducted on a number of samples submitted to the Birmingham laboratory of the Forensic Science Service(R) from the Leicestershire Constabulary on behalf of the Policia Judiciaria and Laboratorio De Policia Cientifica on 7th August 2007. This report is marked for the attention of Detective Superintendent Prior; however I understand and accept that the contents of this report will be shared with the necessary authorities in Portugal.

I have received from my colleague, Sarah Vraitch, copies of the reference DNA profiles of Gerald McCann (CB/1), Kate Healy (CB/2), Amelie McCann (SBM/2) and Sean McCann (SBM/3). I have also received a copy of the DNA profile obtained from the possible saliva staining on the pillow case (SJM/1) which is assumed to be the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann.




01-01-Outros Apensos 01Vol I Pages 273 - 274


01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_273



01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_274



Emails

22nd May 2007, 16.06

Dear all,

Please see email below. Could you please push this batch through tonight.

Thanks.
 

22nd May 2007. 14.58

To: Auto BF Team Leaders

FW: Submission.

All,

See below. We are expecting an unpaid P1 submission from the Madeleine McCann case coming in tonight.

Process supervisor
DNA Trident Court

From: S. Vraitch

22nd May 2007 14.48

Hi,

Just to inform you both that I have an uncharged premium one today to start tomorrow in the case of Madeleine McCann.

The details are as follows:

300655190
400895869

Item SJM/1 - one stain from pillow case for cells.

Many thanks SV
Forensic Scientist.


275 to 281 B15 Crime Sample Logging Form (Priory House) with report of Madeleine's DNA analysis

01-01-Outros Apensos 01 Vol I Page 275 to 281


B15 Crime Stain Sample Logging Form

Document reference FSS - TP - 234

Priory House

Date submitted: 22-05-2007

Sample type: Saliva (Misc)

Sample category : PI (uncharged)

Number of attempts: One only


Area description: Stain 1 pillowcase.

Comments: To be used as a surrogate reference sample.


Created on 22-05-2007




01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_275

____________________

                            "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?" - Amelie, May 2007 -  "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?"


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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by Verdi on 08.01.16 11:43

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Verdi wrote:@Tony Bennett wrote:  "He was accompanied by a police officer. The date was Monday 21 May. Whether the police officer..."

Considering the fishy provenance of the Rothley pillow case, I can't help but be sceptical about this mysterious blood spot in a cardboard frame.  I could of course be wrong. Could you do me a very big favour by filling in a gap and providing a verified source for that piece of information - as in official source, not some tabloid bias report courtesy of the Murdoch empire?  Never seen anything myself to reassure me that it is indeed fact.

Thanks.
I have searched for well over half-an-hour for verifiable information that a police officer accompanied Gerry McCann when he went to collect a pillow case but I have not yet been able to.

These are however my findings this morning:

STATEMENTS (UNVERIFIED) MADE BY INTERNET FORUM MEMBERS

"This is why Gerry went back to UK to get Madeleine's pillow case which only she will have slept on, or at least this is probable.  Gerry had a policeman with him at that time".

"The idea behind going to Rothley to get a sample was to have something they were certain was Madeleine's in order to be able to identify the samples they found in the apartment, car etc. So they could for example take a hair from Gerry McCann and know for certain it was his, compare it with the samples found in PDL and know what was his and what was not. We do not know under what circumstances the pillow was retrieved by Gerry McCann. Did the policeman physically go into the bedroom with him or did he wait downstairs ? Was it a friendly, sympathetic visit by the policeman or was it an "official" visit? I was looking at two of my boys who share a bedroom this morning, they had swapped beds so were lying on each others pillows! My other child takes the dog to his bedroom although this is against house rules, but I bet if we DNA tested his pillow they would tell me I had given birth to a dog. So there is room for doubt about that sample, in my opinion. My last job before leaving the house for a holiday is always to change the bed clothes, so we return to nice clean beds. I know lots of people who do that or others who take all the clothes off and leave the beds "air" while they are away. The pillowcase retrieval would not work for any of us".

"As I said...I know nothing about DNA etc., but Gerry was going to the U.K. for some reason, probably to instruct Carter Ruck to sue someone and was asked to collect a sample of Madeleine's DNA from Rothley, hence the pillowcase. He was supposedly accompanied by a LP Officer".


A SELECTION OF CONTEMPORARY NEWSPAPER ARTICLES FROM 20 TO 24 MAY 2007, ALL OF WHICH MENTION GERRY ATTENDING THE WAR MEMORIAL IN ROTHLEY, AND HIS EMOTIONAL RETURN TO 'LOOK FOR PHOTOGRAPHS', BUT I CAN'T FIND ANY OF THEM WHICH REFER TO COLLECTING MADELEONE'S DNA

Daily Mail (no longer available online) 20 May 2007

Seventeen days after his four-year-old daughter disappeared, Gerry McCann flew back to an empty house that is still fresh with her memory.

Her room is as she left it when the family set off on their holiday to Portugal last month. Her toys are still there on the bed, her clothes in the wardrobe.

But with remarkable fortitude, the 38-year-old consultant embarked on a heart-rending mission in his ceaseless campaign to find his little girl.

He will trawl through four years of family albums and videos to select new pictures of her for his 'Find Madeleine' website. Then he will prepare to return to the Algarve to continue the search.


From Evening Standard 21 May No online link 

Quoting friend Andrew Renwick, talking about Gerry's trip back to Rothley:

'Mr Renwick went on: "He felt he had to go back to do the practical things. There are bills that need to be paid. The family need more clothes and he wants to get more photographs of Madeleine to help in the search. He also wanted to meet organisers of the trust to go over documents."'


Madeleine police plea for photos BBC News - Last Updated: Tuesday, 22 May 2007, 11:58 GMT 12:58 UK

Tourists who have visited the Algarve resort where Madeleine McCann was abducted are being asked to send their holiday photographs to British police.

They want anyone who was in the Praia da Luz area in the two weeks before the four-year-old disappeared on 3 May to send their photos to a new website.

Officers will cross-reference them with a database of UK paedophiles.

Madeleine's father Gerry has returned to Portugal to rejoin his wife and children after a brief trip to the UK.



Yellow tributes

Mr McCann arrived back in Praia Da Luz on Tuesday morning after his one-day visit home.

During his trip, Mr McCann visited the family's home village of Rothley, Leicestershire, where he saw the thousands of yellow ribbons, tributes, flowers and cuddly toys left by the public.

He spoke to some of the people
who had gathered to show their support and tied his own yellow ribbon, which has become a symbol of hope for Madeleine.

As well as meeting organisers of the campaign to find her, it is believed his visit was also intended to enable the family to stay in Portugal for the foreseeable future.



FROM THE PORTUGUESE POLICE FILES 

SOURCE: Processo 10 - VOLUME Xa; PDF page 160-165; Case file pages 2653-2658. FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: D/Supt PRIOR
Customer: New Parks Police Station,
Leicestershire Constabulary
Police reference: Operation Task
Laboratory reference: 300 655 190
Order reference: 400 932 184
Scientist: JOHN ROBERT LOWE
Number of pages: 6

Re: the abduction of Madeleine McCann

This report summarises the results of DNA profiling tests conducted on a number of samples submitted to the Birmingham laboratory of the Forensic Science Service(R) from the Leicestershire Constabulary on behalf of the Policia Judiciaria and Laboratorio De Policia Cientifica on 7th August 2007. This report is marked for the attention of Detective Superintendent Prior; however I understand and accept that the contents of this report will be shared with the necessary authorities in Portugal.

I have received from my colleague, Sarah Vraitch, copies of the reference DNA profiles of Gerald McCann (CB/1), Kate Healy (CB/2), Amelie McCann (SBM/2) and Sean McCann (SBM/3). I have also received a copy of the DNA profile obtained from the possible saliva staining on the pillow case (SJM/1) which is assumed to be the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann.




01-01-Outros Apensos 01Vol I Pages 273 - 274


01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_273



01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_274



Emails

22nd May 2007, 16.06

Dear all,

Please see email below. Could you please push this batch through tonight.

Thanks.
 

22nd May 2007. 14.58

To: Auto BF Team Leaders

FW: Submission.

All,

See below. We are expecting an unpaid P1 submission from the Madeleine McCann case coming in tonight.

Process supervisor
DNA Trident Court

From: S. Vraitch

22nd May 2007 14.48

Hi,

Just to inform you both that I have an uncharged premium one today to start tomorrow in the case of Madeleine McCann.

The details are as follows:

300655190
400895869

Item SJM/1 - one stain from pillow case for cells.

Many thanks SV
Forensic Scientist.


275 to 281 B15 Crime Sample Logging Form (Priory House) with report of Madeleine's DNA analysis

01-01-Outros Apensos 01 Vol I Page 275 to 281


B15 Crime Stain Sample Logging Form

Document reference FSS - TP - 234

Priory House

Date submitted: 22-05-2007

Sample type: Saliva (Misc)

Sample category : PI (uncharged)

Number of attempts: One only


Area description: Stain 1 pillowcase.

Comments: To be used as a surrogate reference sample.


Created on 22-05-2007




01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_275
Much appreciated and apologies for taking up so much of your valuable time, I know this is going over very old ground but as I said, the subject has, like so many other aspects of the case, become so embellished by the more imaginative that it's lost all sense of proportion. As I thought, there doesn't appear to be any confirmation from an official source. It's not good enough for me to hear the often repeated chant 'it's all in the files, if only you would read them', without the provision of a link to the files where this information can be found - no one to my knowledge has yet been able to provide that link.

I too have searched extensively in the past for some official verification but without success.  So, in the absence of verification I will continue to doubt the provenance of the pillow case and the forensic testing thereof.

howdy

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by skyrocket on 08.01.16 12:22

Just to summarise for the record (and nothing more), according to the results of the UK forensic tests:


-The DNA profile SJM/1 obtained from the pillowcase matches that produced from the blood sample. This is in the UK forensic reports.



-The DNA profile SJM/1, is proven (29 million times more likely, rather than not) to be from a natural child of both Kate McCann and Gerry McCann. This is in the UK forensic reports.



-The DNA profile SJM/1 does not match the DNA profiles of either Amelie McCann or Sean McCann. This is in the UK forensic reports.


-The DNA profiles of AM and SM show them both to be the natural children of KM and GM. This is in the UK forensic reports.



-The DNA profile SJM/1 is from a female. This is in the UK forensic reports.


-The origins of the pillowcase and the blood sample are not proven, but both contain/carry the DNA (profile SJM/1) of the same individual female who is the natural daughter of KM and GM.


-The DNA profile SJM/1, regardless of its origin, can only be from Madeleine Beth McCann or an unknown natural female sibling.

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by joyce1938 on 08.01.16 16:24

Good work, skyrocket.  I have seen that on another forum quite some time ago.  I just could not think the tone of people at that time, it was said that both were same dna, the blood spot and the stain.  I expect some will find another question on how can that be.  joyce1938

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by skyrocket on 08.01.16 17:19

@joyce1938   Thank you.  yes   I just wanted to see the results of the DNA tests for the pillowcase; the blood sample; and the McCann family members collated together.

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by worriedmum on 08.01.16 19:54

Thank you skyrocket

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by kaz on 10.01.16 12:50

Thanks for the summary Skyrocket. A lot to think about.

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by dottyaussie on 25.02.16 23:35

@Ray_Sneek wrote:
@deafoldbat wrote:In order to prompt such high level protection and government involvement, there must have been at least one very important person among them. (Whatever activity they were up to!) 
I have always thought that this is the key to the case. IMHO
Very possibly, but no-one has yet been able to identify who this VIP might be.

Could it be someone connected to the Knights Templars and/or the Symingtons (who are well connected to both royalty and the British political establishment? 

Wreath left at the memorial cross, Rothley, May 2007, featuring the 'Cross of Constantine' 


Emblem of the Knights Templar, featuring the 'Cross of Constantine'


Symington family emblem (Middle, top), featuring the 'Cross of Constantine'  


Stevo on the Truth For Madeleine site posted way back about a yacht registered to Prince Charles which he said left Praia da Luz on 3rd or 4th May, I can't find his original article though..

Maybe it was the mythical figure of the so-called 'Tenth Tapas'?
Incidently the Grand Priory of Knights Templar (who sent the flowers) in 2015 held their AGA and Service of Admission and Investiture in Rothley :/

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by whatsupdoc on 12.03.16 23:41

We have seen Madeleine wearing the outfit in the play area, on the Saturday,  and wearing the different outfit by the pool on most likely the Sunday so have these both been in the wash in the following days?....including the sandals and a hat?  These items wouldn't have been worn by the twins esp the sandals and hat. I'm not surprised Kate needed help in operating the washing machine. It must have been important.

It is really strange that Gerry needed to go back to Rothley for a pillow. Strange that the govt shut down FSS. Anyone know if it was scheduled to be closed. The dna must have been a hot potato if it wasn't.

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by Mother bear on 16.03.16 21:03

Is my brain just being lazy or has there ever been footage seen of the whole group with kids in tow on the first visit to the MILLENNIUM.... not the footage of when they all went without K&G & Co. I think on the Thursday afternoon. Any one help please

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by dottyaussie on 16.03.16 22:46

Do we know if anyone was staying in the Penthouse that week ? There is a witness statement from someone who stayed there 19-23 April 2007. From what they say its a two storey apartment. Nice place to hold a party  winkwink

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by haroldd2 on 04.05.16 19:02

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:Courtesy of Tania Cadogan (Hobs)

What I believe may have happened to Maddie McCann
I believe that Maddie died sometime during the vacation before Thurs may 3rd.

What's the earliest date for which we've got the names of other hotel guests?

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by haroldd2 on 04.05.16 19:39

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@kaz wrote:Most likely it all has nothing to do with swinging or paedophilia. Since there were so many  doctors involved I have come to believe the ‘holiday’ was a freebie organised by a leading pharmaceutical company. If this became public knowledge it would reveal exactly what these drug companies are willing to  do to get their products available on the NHS...all highly illegal of course.  We all know what immense financial  power these companies exert over the government as well.
The presence in Praia da Luz of Dr Paul Jerome Weinberger the very same week as the McCanns tends to support your musings.

He was in 2007 a top flyer in Enigma Diagnostics, a Government-sponsored company now based in the top secret Ministry of Defence establishment at Porton Down, Wiltshire, where research into biological and germ warfare, chemical warfare, radiological and nuclear warfare etc. continues. And he dined every night at the Ocean club with his close professional friend Dr Julian Totman, who conveniently lives just down the road from Porton Down in Salisbury, Wiltshire.  Weinberger now (a) owns and runs Diasolve, (b) is on the powerful National Institute of Clinical Excellence (N.I.C.E.) which approves, or rejects, which drugs are to be paid for by the N.H.S., and (c) is past Chairman, now Committee member, of BIVDA (British In Vitro Diagnostics Association). In short, he is a very influential and powerful bloke in these circles.

His links to genetic research, and eugenics, cloning and assorted 'bioengineering' techniques are strong - certainly providing a link with the McCanns' IVF treatment.  

And yes, the absence of Madeleine's DNA in Praia da Luz remains one of the hugest 'stand-out' mysteries - in this case of mysteries upon mysteries.

Weinberger could have been discussing or striking a deal, but another interesting possibility is that he was there to do a job, given his expertise in, ooh, say biological warfare or diagnostics or both. There are other kinds of diagnostics than those relating to DNA and IVF. "In vitro diagnostics" just means diagnostics done in a test tube or similar, using a sample that has been taken away from a person's body. And as you say, Tony, this guy's very influential in that business.

Could there be a biological, chemical or radiological weapon angle? Was he there to diagnose something? If he was, we could right away be talking Official Secrets Act.



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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by whodunit on 04.05.16 20:20

@haroldd2--"Could there be a biological, chemical or radiological weapon angle? Was he there to diagnose something? If he was, we could right away be talking Official Secrets Act."


There could be, but I think it's important to understand that this wouldn't necessarily rule out a pedophilia angle.


I think most people, when they hear the words 'pedophile ring', imagine a group of perverts who are only concerned with getting kinky and perverse.


In some cases, on the lower levels of society, this might be true.


But when you pair 'pedophile ring' with elites who inhabit the upper echelons of business, society and government, what you are really dealing with is people who 'aren't here to have fun' necessarily. Child trafficking and porn is a source of untold billions in profit for elite criminals, most of whom are protected by the justice system by the application of blackmail.



When it comes to spooks, pedophilia is the preferred tool of blackmail. Evidence that an important politician has engaged in this activity can be used to force him to push for unpopular, even harmful policies. [please see The Franklin Scandal/Craig Spence] Such a system of rule by blackmail, which elevates the worst of the worst, is called a kakistocracy. http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t12310-the-kakistocracy-how-elite-child-absuing-groups-acquire-and-maintain-their-power

In many cases, known or suspected pedophiles are deliberately elevated to positions of power precisely because they are so controllable. [see for a possible instance former Speaker of the US House of Representatives, Dennis Hastert]


If you organize events for the ambitious and capable in which they progressively can show that, notwithstanding their veneer of respectability, they are actually completely ruthless, you have the ideal recruiting grounds for the kakistocracy. Of course blackmail plays a role, but the suitable candidates gladly let themselves to become blackmailable because this gives them access to the inner sanctum of the kakistocracy: they prove themselves worthy members and loyal (due to their blackmailability) and in return they will receive access to power in a way they could never dream of on their own. After a while they become fully accepted at a level that suits their capabilities and they will help to maintain the system that gave them so much opportunities (and can end their respectability at any point in time***).


Please see Dave McGowan's [RIP] 'Pedophocracy' for more information on how elite criminals use child abuse and trafficking as a tool to amass power and money.


http://www.whale.to/b/pedophocracy.html

***I'm waiting for the day when the 'limited hangout' is employed to make the McCanns [or maybe just Kate] take the fall for the entire sorry business.

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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by Hobs on 05.05.16 2:49

@skyrocket wrote:@TB and @worriedmum

For some reason Lesley Anne Denton sent 2 separate reports dated 28 June 2007. The first is the one reproduced above by @TB, and the second is below:


THE FORENSIC SCIENCE SERVICE
WETHERBY LABORATORY, SANDBECK WAY, AUDBY LANE, WETHERBY, WEST YORKSHIRE, LS22 7DN


FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: Det Supt Prior

Client: Leicestershire Police, New Parks

Police reference: 07/06085 Operation TASK

Laboratory reference: 300 655 190

Order reference: 400 922 755

Scientist: Lesley Denton

Number of pages: 2

Re: Abduction of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007

A DNA profile has been obtained from the reference samples of Amelie Eve McCANN (SBM/2) and Sean Michael McCANN (SBM/3).

In this case, all of the bands present in the profiles of both Amelie McCANN and Sean McCANN are represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is what I would expect to find if Amelie McCANN and Sean Michael McCANN were their natural children.

Neither the DNA profile of Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN matches that from the pillowcase (SJM/1) and therefore in my opinion, neither Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN can be the source of this profile.

If I can be of further assistance or you require a CJA statement please do not hesitate to contact me at the laboratory on 01937 548287.

Yours sincerely,

Lesley Ann Denton
FORENSIC SCIENTIST
Date: 28 June 2007



So SJM/1 DNA profile (from the pillowcase and identical to the one from the blood sample) is from a natural daughter of KM and GM, but is not from Amelie McCann. Therefore, this specific DNA profile has to be that of MBM, or theoretically from a third unknown natural daughter.

This has caught my eye previously.
Not for what is there, rather what is not there.

In this case, all of the bands present in the profiles of both Amelie McCANN and Sean McCANN are represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is what I would expect to find if Amelie McCANN and Sean Michael McCANN were their natural children.

Neither the DNA profile of Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN matches that from the pillowcase (SJM/1) and therefore in my opinion, neither Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN can be the source of this profile.


We are told that the DNA samples from Sean and Amelie show they are directly related to kate and gerry mccann.

Their genetic profiles are a combination of the DNA of kate and gerry.


What caught my eye was that no mention is made about the DNA on the pillow case being a combination of kate and gerry's DNA but not being identical to one of the twins.


If the DNA was presumably from Maddie, i would expect a comment being made that it came from a person directly related to kate and gerry,their child.
We are told who it doesn't belong to rather than being told who it does belong to.

If the sample came from Maddie and either one or both parents were not present in the sample, and we know Maddie was IVF, it would perhaps provide a motive as to why Maddie was 'disappeared'.
It would also go a long way as to explaining all the distancing language, the subtle demeaning by both her parents and the extended families.

If gerry was perhaps not the father (remember the news reports about a UK donor, and gerry referring Maddie as 'her daughter' before self correcting to 'our daughter' then there is a very clear motive.
She wasn't biologically theirs, unlike the twins, therefore she was to be ostracized, she became the outsider, unwanted, imperfect.





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Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

Post by canada12 on 05.05.16 3:04

If the sample came from Maddie and either one or both parents were not present in the sample, and we know Maddie was IVF, it would perhaps provide a motive as to why Maddie was 'disappeared'.
It would also go a long way as to explaining all the distancing language, the subtle demeaning by both her parents and the extended families.

If gerry was perhaps not the father (remember the news reports about a UK donor, and gerry referring Maddie as 'her daughter' before self correcting to 'our daughter' then there is a very clear motive.
She wasn't biologically theirs, unlike the twins, therefore she was to be ostracized, she became the outsider, unwanted, imperfect.



Let's run with that for a minute, Hobs. I too have considered that Madeleine was not Gerry's biological child. Considering this possibility, it would also explain why access to Madeleine's medical records was denied. But one further thought. What if the sperm donor was someone known to Kate and Gerry - it wasn't an anonymous donor, but a friend who offered to help, or someone they knew in a professional capacity - perhaps someone in the medical field, perhaps someone Gerry had treated as a patient... and let's take that one step further still... what if the sperm donor was someone rather well connected...rather high up in the Powers That Be... and let's take that one step further... would this explain the high level of interference in the case and the quest to try and ensure the McCanns were blameless?

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