The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by jean-pierre.t50 29.07.15 15:52
Aquila, You and I have been around these forums for long enough to conversant with the facts.
To summarise for those who may not be up to speed, it was an executive agency of the home office (1st April1991). Highlights include forming the worlds first DNA database, and pionering LCN DNA analysis (which was used in the McCann case)
It became a government owned company in December 2005 (possibly, and I am guessing here, with the aim of floating it off in due course). It finally closed on 31st March 2012.
The FSS archives - a collection of case files and retained casework samples such as microscope slides, fibre samples and DNA samples - has been retained to allow review of old cases. Forensic work is now contracted out to the private sector or carried out in-house.
Sorry - I have no idea of the location of the archive of casework samples. Maybe a FOI request would elicit an answer.
To summarise for those who may not be up to speed, it was an executive agency of the home office (1st April1991). Highlights include forming the worlds first DNA database, and pionering LCN DNA analysis (which was used in the McCann case)
It became a government owned company in December 2005 (possibly, and I am guessing here, with the aim of floating it off in due course). It finally closed on 31st March 2012.
The FSS archives - a collection of case files and retained casework samples such as microscope slides, fibre samples and DNA samples - has been retained to allow review of old cases. Forensic work is now contracted out to the private sector or carried out in-house.
Sorry - I have no idea of the location of the archive of casework samples. Maybe a FOI request would elicit an answer.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by Verdi 29.07.15 21:21
That's the problem with wikipedia isn't it - they tend to miss out the most important details.jean-pierre.t50 wrote:Aquila, You and I have been around these forums for long enough to conversant with the facts.
To summarise for those who may not be up to speed, it was an executive agency of the home office (1st April1991). Highlights include forming the worlds first DNA database, and pionering LCN DNA analysis (which was used in the McCann case)
It became a government owned company in December 2005 (possibly, and I am guessing here, with the aim of floating it off in due course). It finally closed on 31st March 2012.
The FSS archives - a collection of case files and retained casework samples such as microscope slides, fibre samples and DNA samples - has been retained to allow review of old cases. Forensic work is now contracted out to the private sector or carried out in-house.
Sorry - I have no idea of the location of the archive of casework samples. Maybe a FOI request would elicit an answer.
I'm not quite sure who or what this 'it' is to which you refer - could it be the now disbanded Forensic Science Service? If so I think technically you are incorrect as the FSS by name wasn't established until December 2005 and subsequently abandoned in March 2012 (short lived considering the claimed expertise wouldn't you agree?), following a string of unfortunate mishaps. Also the FSS was closed down because it was running at a tremendous financial loss which I think amounts to a whole lot more than government cut-backs.
Probably totally unconnected but nonetheless interesting to note that the UK pioneer of genetic fingerprinting, Sir Alec Jeffreys, happens to be based at Leicester University the very same location that Dr Gerald McCann is housed. I believe Sir Jeffreys also spent time at the University of Amsterdam. No doubt just coincidence but strange coincident isn't it?
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by Guest 29.07.15 22:28
There is already a foi about the archiving of forensic case material in the uk:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/archiving-of-forensic-case-material
for the dna there is a national dna database, those only keep the actual profiles, that is just the 'paperwork'.
In the uk the responsible authority for the dna profiles database is the home office:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2010-to-2015-government-policy-policing/2010-to-2015-government-policy-policing
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/archiving-of-forensic-case-material
for the dna there is a national dna database, those only keep the actual profiles, that is just the 'paperwork'.
In the uk the responsible authority for the dna profiles database is the home office:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2010-to-2015-government-policy-policing/2010-to-2015-government-policy-policing
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by Verdi 29.07.15 23:51
Leaving aside the technicalities about who/what/where, I'm more interested to know how come out of all the samples relative to the case of Madeleine McCann, submitted to the FSS for analysis, not one produced a meaningful result. In the words of the world renowned FSS, the all encompassing scientific experts in the field - "this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation".onehand wrote:There is already a foi about the archiving of forensic case material in the uk:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/archiving-of-forensic-case-material
for the dna there is a national dna database, those only keep the actual profiles, that is just the 'paperwork'.
In the uk the responsible authority for the dna profiles database is the home office:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2010-to-2015-government-policy-policing/2010-to-2015-government-policy-policing
Extraordinary!
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by Guest 30.07.15 1:00
if you google lcn dna, i do think you find a lot of answers about that.
there is a lot of information missing from the pj files to be sure, what techniques the fss exactly used.
the ffs had their own practice to handle lcn dna, that made it into a controversial item later on , in 2007, at that time lcn dna testing was only used in forensics in the uk, new zealand and the netherlands, the rest of the world found it not trustworthy enough for use in forensics at all.
a lot of the news about the problems with lcn dna testing in the uk is still to read on the mccannfiles.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id190.html
there must have been a better report from the fss, normally you would get something that looks like a very big science article, and is every step taken, covered. all what i have seen is a translation for the investigation, you would call that a translation for dummies.
lcn dna is still mostly a shot in the dark, a last hope of results, but there is a large field for errors, mostly in the copy by pcr. it looks very much the same as with the older copy machines, in the early days, when you was making copy from a copy and do that 30 tot 34 times, sometimes you could not read the text, because any noise on one copy wouldf be taken to the next, that also happens in pcr testing with dna.
to complex could be, because the sample was dirty to begin with,that could happen before the sample was taken or when taken, there could be contamination in the lab, but also a lot could go wrong with duplicating pcr techniques, parts of dna could be relicts of contamination, but not all the parts of dna will copy in the same way, so there could be lost, or even extra parts that brings out a useless result.
it is all together , you need a good quality sample, even you talk about samples from spots that are usually far to small to see with the naked eye. you need dedicated and highly trained officers or assistance to get the samples. you need the best lab and labworkers, but the result always ends with the interpretation.
so the man from the fss would not take the stands with most of the results they get. but without the full report there is no way to know what went wrong exactly and where.
lcn dna is still controversial before the courts and between scientists, there is still no uniformed way to get to the results and the fault margins are still big.
the other think is, those samples used are often so very small, that it is very hard to bind a possible suspect to the place you found it, samples of these sizes are easily brought on from contamination.
in this case the more prominent question is not even about a possible suspect, but the possible remains of the victim. even if the samples from 5a came out as a match for madeleine, that could not be used as evidence that madeleine was dead in situ behind the sofa or on other places in 5a.
those very small samples are pretty normal if someone was staying for a amount of days in a room.
the samples from the renault would have be more convincing, but on their own still not full proof. dna does not proof being dead or alive, so there was still a lot to work on, before the investigation would come to that.
dna and certainly lcn dna is not the holy grail of forensics and investigation work, everything has to come together for a full proof result. it always comes down to facts and circumstances.
it was very stupid to try to discredit the dogs and their handler, if they had been smart they had that energy out to the lcn testing.
there is a lot of information missing from the pj files to be sure, what techniques the fss exactly used.
the ffs had their own practice to handle lcn dna, that made it into a controversial item later on , in 2007, at that time lcn dna testing was only used in forensics in the uk, new zealand and the netherlands, the rest of the world found it not trustworthy enough for use in forensics at all.
a lot of the news about the problems with lcn dna testing in the uk is still to read on the mccannfiles.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id190.html
there must have been a better report from the fss, normally you would get something that looks like a very big science article, and is every step taken, covered. all what i have seen is a translation for the investigation, you would call that a translation for dummies.
lcn dna is still mostly a shot in the dark, a last hope of results, but there is a large field for errors, mostly in the copy by pcr. it looks very much the same as with the older copy machines, in the early days, when you was making copy from a copy and do that 30 tot 34 times, sometimes you could not read the text, because any noise on one copy wouldf be taken to the next, that also happens in pcr testing with dna.
to complex could be, because the sample was dirty to begin with,that could happen before the sample was taken or when taken, there could be contamination in the lab, but also a lot could go wrong with duplicating pcr techniques, parts of dna could be relicts of contamination, but not all the parts of dna will copy in the same way, so there could be lost, or even extra parts that brings out a useless result.
it is all together , you need a good quality sample, even you talk about samples from spots that are usually far to small to see with the naked eye. you need dedicated and highly trained officers or assistance to get the samples. you need the best lab and labworkers, but the result always ends with the interpretation.
so the man from the fss would not take the stands with most of the results they get. but without the full report there is no way to know what went wrong exactly and where.
lcn dna is still controversial before the courts and between scientists, there is still no uniformed way to get to the results and the fault margins are still big.
the other think is, those samples used are often so very small, that it is very hard to bind a possible suspect to the place you found it, samples of these sizes are easily brought on from contamination.
in this case the more prominent question is not even about a possible suspect, but the possible remains of the victim. even if the samples from 5a came out as a match for madeleine, that could not be used as evidence that madeleine was dead in situ behind the sofa or on other places in 5a.
those very small samples are pretty normal if someone was staying for a amount of days in a room.
the samples from the renault would have be more convincing, but on their own still not full proof. dna does not proof being dead or alive, so there was still a lot to work on, before the investigation would come to that.
dna and certainly lcn dna is not the holy grail of forensics and investigation work, everything has to come together for a full proof result. it always comes down to facts and circumstances.
it was very stupid to try to discredit the dogs and their handler, if they had been smart they had that energy out to the lcn testing.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by Grande Finale 30.07.15 3:15
I don't think there is ANY doubt here that Eddy the 'cadaver' dog scented cadaver odour on the renault car key. He even marked the key after it was buried in a fire bucket filled with sand.
04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the
Budget rental company.
In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
park.
At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the
Budget rental company.
In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
park.
At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by jean-pierre.t50 30.07.15 8:05
Verdi. The FSS was actually established in 1991. I think the date you refer to, 2005,was the point at which is became a GovCo company. You are quite right about Wikipedia, which I one of the reasons why source material is preferable where available. .
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmsctech/855/85505.htm
Onehand - the FSS reports contained in the files are extremely comprehensive -link below
One interpretation is that the testing was extremely thorough and there was simply no conclusive forensic evidence to show that Madeleine died in the apartment or that she was ever in the Renault scenic.
The other is that there are other files that are being kept secret. This would mean that the PJ and the UK and Portuguese authorities must have been involved in a coverup, so complete that nobody has "blown the whistle".
Grande Finale - Eddie marks both Blood and cadaver odour.
The FSS report relating to the key card says: An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key - (286C/2007-CRL (12)).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmsctech/855/85505.htm
Onehand - the FSS reports contained in the files are extremely comprehensive -link below
One interpretation is that the testing was extremely thorough and there was simply no conclusive forensic evidence to show that Madeleine died in the apartment or that she was ever in the Renault scenic.
The other is that there are other files that are being kept secret. This would mean that the PJ and the UK and Portuguese authorities must have been involved in a coverup, so complete that nobody has "blown the whistle".
Grande Finale - Eddie marks both Blood and cadaver odour.
The FSS report relating to the key card says: An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key - (286C/2007-CRL (12)).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by Guest 30.07.15 9:54
the problem with the comprehensive style of reporting, is that is lacks the opportunity to ask for second opinions from other experts in this field.
i'am used to see the actual graphics of the test results, or the exact coding of dna in the reports.
these in the fss reports are nothing more then the conclusions, if you know that a lot of these are just the result of interpretations of the actual test results by the team that worked on this case it is to little to conclude how they get to those conclusions.
no traceable dna is easy to understand, but to complex, or from different individuals is not. an investigation needs information about possibilities how the results could be come a mixed sample.
it is pretty easy to mix dna in a sample, mostly the result of just handling a sample during taking it, or working on it from the lab. but also just from the object that was used after the first contribution of dna, become contaminated in time from accidental contribution, like just living in a house.
but without the graphics or the dna coding in writing, you can not conclude from a report of the mixing was the likely result of a specific group of people.
i can understand that they left out the full copies of the dna of the voluntary contributors, that's done because of privacy laws, but normally they use just a small set of markers, you could on their own not trace back to a person if you keep their personal results out of the report. but it could deliver a certain pattern for the investigation if foul play is a possibility.
the comprehensive style is not only a burden for a investigation, but also for the people who could be marked as a suspect in criminal cases. it is nice that an expert set his signature under a report with results, but if those results, or in this case the conclusions from results, it is just his word for it. there is no control possible.
it would also be pretty easy to screw up the results in a lab or even during taken the specimen on a possible crime scene. that is why the full graphics of the tests or the dna coding found in writing is always important. because other expert scientists in the same field could look at the full results and give their review.
if you look at page 122 in the john lowe part of the pj files, it is still a question if the fss ever did send the full report to portugal: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
i do not see more them one page that is missing from the part of the files about the forensics, one page is certainly not enough for the full report, with the grafics and used/found dna coding.
so if the pj never got those full results, they could not ask other experts for a second opinion.
it is strange they had to ask for those reports by a rogatory letter, because the fss had portugal as their client in this case, that means the brittish government has no legal part in this contract.
normally results are owned by the client that gives the order to do the testing.
it was in 2007 pretty normal to send specimen to a lab abroad, the only thing the government had a say in would have been the clearance to take the specimen through customs and regulations how to transport it to the lab. there is nothing in the communication that portugal had transmitted their ownership of the specimen or results to the uk.
if the full scientific result had been send with the first mentioning by john lowe, there was no need to ask again for it, but it would also had been given a page number and would now be visible as not published pages.
there is an answer of john lowe after that, but they do not mark any scientic results at all.
i'am used to see the actual graphics of the test results, or the exact coding of dna in the reports.
these in the fss reports are nothing more then the conclusions, if you know that a lot of these are just the result of interpretations of the actual test results by the team that worked on this case it is to little to conclude how they get to those conclusions.
no traceable dna is easy to understand, but to complex, or from different individuals is not. an investigation needs information about possibilities how the results could be come a mixed sample.
it is pretty easy to mix dna in a sample, mostly the result of just handling a sample during taking it, or working on it from the lab. but also just from the object that was used after the first contribution of dna, become contaminated in time from accidental contribution, like just living in a house.
but without the graphics or the dna coding in writing, you can not conclude from a report of the mixing was the likely result of a specific group of people.
i can understand that they left out the full copies of the dna of the voluntary contributors, that's done because of privacy laws, but normally they use just a small set of markers, you could on their own not trace back to a person if you keep their personal results out of the report. but it could deliver a certain pattern for the investigation if foul play is a possibility.
the comprehensive style is not only a burden for a investigation, but also for the people who could be marked as a suspect in criminal cases. it is nice that an expert set his signature under a report with results, but if those results, or in this case the conclusions from results, it is just his word for it. there is no control possible.
it would also be pretty easy to screw up the results in a lab or even during taken the specimen on a possible crime scene. that is why the full graphics of the tests or the dna coding found in writing is always important. because other expert scientists in the same field could look at the full results and give their review.
if you look at page 122 in the john lowe part of the pj files, it is still a question if the fss ever did send the full report to portugal: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
i do not see more them one page that is missing from the part of the files about the forensics, one page is certainly not enough for the full report, with the grafics and used/found dna coding.
so if the pj never got those full results, they could not ask other experts for a second opinion.
it is strange they had to ask for those reports by a rogatory letter, because the fss had portugal as their client in this case, that means the brittish government has no legal part in this contract.
normally results are owned by the client that gives the order to do the testing.
it was in 2007 pretty normal to send specimen to a lab abroad, the only thing the government had a say in would have been the clearance to take the specimen through customs and regulations how to transport it to the lab. there is nothing in the communication that portugal had transmitted their ownership of the specimen or results to the uk.
if the full scientific result had been send with the first mentioning by john lowe, there was no need to ask again for it, but it would also had been given a page number and would now be visible as not published pages.
there is an answer of john lowe after that, but they do not mark any scientic results at all.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by worriedmum 30.07.15 11:13
Thank you for this explanation, onehand.
I am very bothered by this
quote
''it is strange they had to ask for those reports by a rogatory letter, because the fss had portugal as their client in this case, that means the brittish government has no legal part in this contract.
normally results are owned by the client that gives the order to do the testing.
it was in 2007 pretty normal to send specimen to a lab abroad, the only thing the government had a say in would have been the clearance to take the specimen through customs and regulations how to transport it to the lab. there is nothing in the communication that portugal had transmitted their ownership of the specimen or results to the uk.
if the full scientific result had been send with the first mentioning by john lowe, there was no need to ask again for it, but it would also had been given a page number and would now be visible as not published pages.''
unquote
Are you suggesting that there were anomalies in the way in which the results were delivered to the PJ?
I am very bothered by this
quote
''it is strange they had to ask for those reports by a rogatory letter, because the fss had portugal as their client in this case, that means the brittish government has no legal part in this contract.
normally results are owned by the client that gives the order to do the testing.
it was in 2007 pretty normal to send specimen to a lab abroad, the only thing the government had a say in would have been the clearance to take the specimen through customs and regulations how to transport it to the lab. there is nothing in the communication that portugal had transmitted their ownership of the specimen or results to the uk.
if the full scientific result had been send with the first mentioning by john lowe, there was no need to ask again for it, but it would also had been given a page number and would now be visible as not published pages.''
unquote
Are you suggesting that there were anomalies in the way in which the results were delivered to the PJ?
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by Guest 30.07.15 12:36
yes, i do think so, there is no sign that the full scientific report is ever send to the pj in portugal at all.
portugal was just an client in this, even in 2007 is was normal to work with labs from abroad, but who gives the order, normally would get the full report.
in this case it would be almost equals a bookwork, so it is not something that you could see as just some, or a handful of missing pages. the numbering of the published files are just the official page ordering from the full files, the results i talk about are even named in a letter of john lowe on page 2660 of the pj files.
this is the link in the files to part of the rogatory letter: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_122.jpg
it is part of this rogatory letter: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm#cr2p125to142
but it is not all to strange, because there is more that was politely asked for, was completely understandable as needed for a sound investigation, like madeleine's medical records or the credit card info.
portugal was just an client in this, even in 2007 is was normal to work with labs from abroad, but who gives the order, normally would get the full report.
in this case it would be almost equals a bookwork, so it is not something that you could see as just some, or a handful of missing pages. the numbering of the published files are just the official page ordering from the full files, the results i talk about are even named in a letter of john lowe on page 2660 of the pj files.
this is the link in the files to part of the rogatory letter: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_122.jpg
it is part of this rogatory letter: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm#cr2p125to142
but it is not all to strange, because there is more that was politely asked for, was completely understandable as needed for a sound investigation, like madeleine's medical records or the credit card info.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by joyce1938 30.07.15 13:56
I have a recoection of this . The first results to pj was one thing and was definite in that dna had been gathered . at another time a bit later ,the results were watered down
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by jean-pierre.t50 30.07.15 14:01
Is there any evidence of the existence of a 'first teport''? One which should definite results?
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by joyce1938 30.07.15 14:04
not certain who ,but could be amongst mr amarals words or maybe the chap that took over after ,I have seen it written ,sorry not sure where.joyce1938
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by TMH 30.07.15 21:54
The dogs detected blood on the key fob, not cadaver scent, I thought?Grande Finale wrote:I don't think there is ANY doubt here that Eddy the 'cadaver' dog scented cadaver odour on the renault car key. He even marked the key after it was buried in a fire bucket filled with sand.
04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the
Budget rental company.
In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
park.
At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by jean-pierre.t50 30.07.15 22:01
That is my understanding too, that a trace of blood was found and identified as Gerry mccann's
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by coati mundi 31.07.15 1:44
Surely the point is that the dogs alerted, not just once but several times at different times and in different locations, and to diffferent items. The problem seems to me that everything available wasn't seized at the time, which it should have been. How did they get away with that?
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by Grande Finale 31.07.15 4:13
@TMH is correct it was blood on the car key !
Eddy the cadaver dog marked the Renault car ! Then Keela was sent into the car and marked human blood in several places in the car.
The inquiry began at the time indicated, the dog EDDY which detects cadaver odour, searched the whole of the floor of the underground car park where the cars were parked with the following result:
15.27 ? the dog ?marked? vehicle n?4 ? Renault Scenic ? number plate ? 59-DA-27, the rental car currently used by Gerry and Kate McCann.
The Renault Scenic vehicle ? number plate 59-DA-27 was removed to the third floor of the underground car park and was subjected to a forensic search by officers from the Scientific Police Laboratory and another sniffer dog inspection that began at 03.49 on 7th August by the dog KEELA, which detected human blood remains, the following results were noted:
03.53 ? the dog ?marked? a zone on the right inferior side of the inside of the luggage compartment of the vehicle;
04.11 ? the dog ?marked? the compartment on the driver?s side, which was seen to contain the vehicle?s key, of a plastic electronic card type, with a key ring from the Budget car rental agency.
Eddy the cadaver dog marked the Renault car ! Then Keela was sent into the car and marked human blood in several places in the car.
The inquiry began at the time indicated, the dog EDDY which detects cadaver odour, searched the whole of the floor of the underground car park where the cars were parked with the following result:
15.27 ? the dog ?marked? vehicle n?4 ? Renault Scenic ? number plate ? 59-DA-27, the rental car currently used by Gerry and Kate McCann.
The Renault Scenic vehicle ? number plate 59-DA-27 was removed to the third floor of the underground car park and was subjected to a forensic search by officers from the Scientific Police Laboratory and another sniffer dog inspection that began at 03.49 on 7th August by the dog KEELA, which detected human blood remains, the following results were noted:
03.53 ? the dog ?marked? a zone on the right inferior side of the inside of the luggage compartment of the vehicle;
04.11 ? the dog ?marked? the compartment on the driver?s side, which was seen to contain the vehicle?s key, of a plastic electronic card type, with a key ring from the Budget car rental agency.
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Sorry for the long post, but relevant..
by tigger 31.07.15 13:00
Trawling through old press reports I found this -outrageous - example of how the PJ were libelled and portrayed: the bolded section is where the Daily Mail starts their very own form of libel:
'I know where Madeleine is' call traced to Argentina Daily Mail
Last updated at 11:59am on 9th June 2007
The hunt for abducted Madeleine McCann was linked to South America today for the first time.
It is understood a mysterious call claiming to know the whereabouts of the four-year-old came from a mobile phone registered in Argentina.
The "credible" call was considered so potentially significant that the McCanns halted their search of Europe to help police investigate.
They delayed their flight from Berlin to Amsterdam by three hours and plans were drawn up to divert to the UK.
It was thought the McCanns might need to return to Britain to talk to specialist advisers about the call.
The call from the pay-as-you-go phone came from a man who wanted to speak directly to the McCanns, according to Spanish police sources.
He did not reveal his identity or nationality, but the phone was soon linked to the South American country.
All efforts to re-establish contact with the caller failed on Wednesday and the couple carried on with their journey around Europe.
A British police source said: "The importance of this line of inquiry is still being assessed and attempts to re-establish contact are continuing."
Although Spanish officials denied they had received the call, a Guardia Civil source told the Portuguese paper Correio de Manha: "Only time will tell if this call gives help or not to the case."
Spanish newspaper El Mundo reported that a man matching the description released by Portuguese police two weeks ago was seen in a bar in Seville a week before Madeleine's abduction.
It claimed the man was working on the instruction of others and told fellow drinkers he was going to the Algarve.
The latest development comes on the day Portuguese police were forced to defend their reputation amid allegations that they were enjoying boozy lunches while the search for Madeleine continued. Armed police officers were also criticised by Madeleine's aunt for preventing her from putting up posters of the little girl at Lisbon Airport.
Senior police officers involved in the investigation were seen laughing and joking as images of the missing four-year-old and her desperate parents appeared on a restaurant TV screen.
It happened at a lunch lasting nearly two hours as Kate and Gerry McCann were away campaigning in Europe. (hard at work, unlike the PJ)
They laughed and cracked jokes as they enjoyed a meal washed down with wine and whisky - as footage of the couple played in the background.
Afterwards, they left a table littered with empty glasses - and went back to work. ( grr... does this journo expect full glasses, washing up?)
Yesterday Policia Judiciara (PJ) spokesman Olegario Sousa, one of the officers spotted having lunch, said it was up to the individual to decide what he or she ate and drank.
Asked if it was acceptable for police to drink alcohol in their lunch break he said: "I don't know, it is very, very sad but a person's free time is for lunch. That is normal to do.
"The persons are in charge in the day, they are working in the day but they must eat and drink - it is normal.
"I drink what I want to drink when I can drink."
When it was put to him that he had been seen drinking, he said: "Have you seen anyone drunk? Have you seen any action deterred by that?"
Mr Sousa and Goncalo Amaral, head of the regional PJ, were spotted as Kate and Gerry McCann travelled to Berlin and Amsterdam to appeal for more information about their missing daughter.
In Portimao, a town near where the four-year-old was snatched 35 days ago, a diner at fish restaurant Carvi said he recognised the police officials.
"I knew who they were because Mr Sousa has been all over the TV and in the papers," he said.
The diner watched as officers enjoyed the lunch, which took place a short walk from the police station less than 24 hours after Kate and Gerry McCann were told that everything possible was being done to find their little girl.
Then - in what looked like becoming the first arrest in this case after nearly five weeks, a photographer trying to take a picture of them emerging from the restaurant was detained, held for four hours, fingerprinted, interviewed, and had his camera confiscated. He has now been formally named as an 'Arguido' - the same status as the chief suspect in Madeleine's disappearance, Robert Murat. (is this an outright lie? I've never heard of a journalist being made 'arguido' for taking a photograph!
On Tuesday, two groups went to two separate restaurants. The bigger party did not begin to leave for an hour and three-quarters. The smaller party had a 50-euro meal of fish and wine and shared jokes between what appeared to be discussion about police business. (No size of the parties is given, I expect 50 euros is about right for two or three people for lunch - how is this relevant?)
On Wednesday, the party included senior figures from police headquarters at Portimao, where the investigation is based. One of them was Ch Insp Olegario Sousa, the public face of the inquiry, who appears on TV at press conferences. Another was Goncalo Amaral, number three in the investigation and a well-known figure in major police operations.
At 12.50pm the two men strolled across a sun-drenched square to Carvi restaurant, a regular haunt that specialises in fresh seafood and lobster straight from the tank. Inside, they formed a table of four with two other officers. ( - and what did you expect them to do? A square dance?)
The diner said: 'They asked for the Portuguese TV news to be switched on and sat at the table watching it. It must have been about 2pm. Madeleine's parents had given a press conference in Berlin and they came on the screen.'
At that Berlin conference, Gerry McCann had made it clear he was confident police were doing all they could to find Madeleine. During a live broadcast that morning he had said: 'We have had no doubts about the desire of the police to find Madeleine. We have witnessed their efforts first hand and they're working harder than Kate and I.'
The diner added: 'The police were laughing and joking among themselves while it was on. They seemed to be sharing some sort of joke. Whatever it was, I thought that laughing like that in public was in really poor taste. (Gerry was seen laughing heartily just days after 3/5)
'They had a bottle of chilled wine with the meal but they had a bottle of whisky on the table after the main course as well. I was pretty shocked to see they were drinking whisky at lunchtime. The bottle was passing between them for about half an hour. (Do tell - did they drink or just have a game?)
'Someone on another table seemed to know them and joked about them having two-hour lunches and knocking back Johnnie Walker Black. He said they would get themselves in the papers.
'There was a guy in a red shirt holding court about Portuguese law. They were discussing a change in the law being planned for Arguidos.' (Portuguese for suspect).
Two of the party left, then Ch Insp Sousa left on his own, leaving a colleague behind.
'I got the impression they went there regularly - they were very friendly with the waiter. I don't know what time they came in but I was there for a good 90 minutes and when I left, one of them was still slumped back in his chair in the corner with the whisky bottle in front of him. He was a big sweaty guy and he was sagging into the chair. The table was littered with empty glasses. (So you're implying he was stinking drunk? Big and sweaty - is that a hint?)
'There was some sort of commotion and I heard someone shout out. They swore and said something about the 'Paparazzi Ingles' (English Paparazzi) hiding behind the door.'
One officer had insisted privately the Madeleine officers had been working 'punishing hours', sometimes sleeping overnight at the station in the early days of the inquiry.
Philomena McCann, Madeleine's aunt, said such behaviour would not be acceptable in the UK: "If it were detectives from Scotland Yard there would be absolute uproar.
"But we have to let them to get on with their work because that's all we have to rely on. ( Why didn't you write: Big, sweaty Philomena? or is it only a crime to be big and sweaty if you're Portuguese?)
"It is a different country and we have to accept the way that they do things and that it is a different culture where they have lunches and siestas but we hope the work is made up at other times."
She then told how armed police officers stopped her putting up posters of the little girl at Lisbon airport. (I'm stunned, big sweaty ones?)
She and another relative were travelling from the Algarve to the holy shrine at Fatima when they made a diversion to the airport.
Kate McCann had noticed there were no pictures up when she passed through on her way to Madrid.
"She was so upset to think there were so many tourists coming in and out and nothing there to remind people of Madeleine," said Ms McCann.
"She asked me to make a detour on the way. I was given permission to put the posters up by a woman on the information desk.
"But straightaway we were swooped on by two armed police officers. I was with a relative who was bodily manhandled by them. (They didn't manhandle you? Not enough officers?)
"We went back to the information desk and there was a big row between the woman and the police."
Ms McCann said the director of the airport Dr Francisco Severino told them they could fax a request which would be considered.
"It would be fair to say we were unimpressed by their unhelpful attitude," she said. "We were very badly treated.( the director rolled up, count yourself well served).
"It seemed clear they didn't want the negativity affecting tourism but I think they are doing the wrong thing.
"Surely if people think the police and the authorities are doing everything they can to find Madeleine other families visiting Portugal would feel more secure."
Ms McCann said she had asked junior Justice Minister Baroness Ashton to put pressure on to change their policy.
The McCanns are back in Portugal today ahead of a trip to Morocco, where there has been a reported sighting of Madeleine.
In Praia da Luz today, the couple watched as 1,000 yellow balloons calling for information about Madeleine were released into the air.
Meanwhile in Praia da Luz, the Algarve resort from which Madeleine vanished on May 3, police removed their 'do not cross' tape from the McCanns' holiday apartment and withdrew all police presence exceprt for one uniformed officer outside. Alipio Ribiero, national director of the Judicial Police, said: 'The Judicial Police are seriously investigating this case. It could take time but we continue in the Algarve, even if our presence is not noticed.'
The exhausted couple had their hopes dramatically raised that their daughter was still alive yesterday - only to see them dashed.
The couple's planned flight to Amsterdam on Wednesday night was held for three hours in Berlin after what appeared to be a crucial breakthrough.
They were told that a "credible call" had been received by Spanish police from a man suggesting he knew where Madeleine was and saying that he wanted to talk to the McCanns.
The call was reportedly traced to an unregistered pay-as-you-go phone outside Europe.
The caller did not disclose his identity, but the information supplied was apparently so specific that British police liaising with the Portuguese inquiry felt it necessary to tell the McCanns immediately.
The couple were advised that the mystery source might try to make contact, and that they should delay their flight in case he called when they were in the air.
As frantic efforts were made to re-establish contact with the caller the McCanns were whisked off the flight, waiting anxiously for nearly three hours at the British Embassy in Berlin. The man never called back.(No doubt the Portuguese officer were drunk and had lost the number?)
Journalists on the plane were told that the crew had been asked to draw up a new flight plan involving a possible switch of destination from Amsterdam to East Midlands Airport, close to the McCanns' Leicestershire home. (This was a private jet so interesting that journos travelled with them, diverting a plane would be no trouble but it seems from the blog that they were more bothered having missed two evening news programmes and had to make do with just the one press conference the following day).
But at 7.30pm the flight was cleared to continue to Amsterdam, where the McCanns pressed ahead with their European campaign to keep their daughter in the public mind.
Soon after they touched down, it appeared that the call was a hoax, or was no longer being treated with any urgency.
Spanish police categorically denied that they had received such a call, as did the Spanish Interior Ministry.
It was an illustration of the kind of distractions the McCanns are having to endure in their relentless search for information about Madeleine, who vanished more than a month ago during the family's holiday in Portugal.
Another followed soon afterwards when a Spanish newspaper quoted an "investigative journalist" claiming he knew the identity of Madeleine's abductor, and suggesting she had been stolen to order by a paedophile ring.
Last night, however, there was no indication that police were investigating the claim. (So Spanish police is no good either,
)
'I know where Madeleine is' call traced to Argentina Daily Mail
Last updated at 11:59am on 9th June 2007
The hunt for abducted Madeleine McCann was linked to South America today for the first time.
It is understood a mysterious call claiming to know the whereabouts of the four-year-old came from a mobile phone registered in Argentina.
The "credible" call was considered so potentially significant that the McCanns halted their search of Europe to help police investigate.
They delayed their flight from Berlin to Amsterdam by three hours and plans were drawn up to divert to the UK.
It was thought the McCanns might need to return to Britain to talk to specialist advisers about the call.
The call from the pay-as-you-go phone came from a man who wanted to speak directly to the McCanns, according to Spanish police sources.
He did not reveal his identity or nationality, but the phone was soon linked to the South American country.
All efforts to re-establish contact with the caller failed on Wednesday and the couple carried on with their journey around Europe.
A British police source said: "The importance of this line of inquiry is still being assessed and attempts to re-establish contact are continuing."
Although Spanish officials denied they had received the call, a Guardia Civil source told the Portuguese paper Correio de Manha: "Only time will tell if this call gives help or not to the case."
Spanish newspaper El Mundo reported that a man matching the description released by Portuguese police two weeks ago was seen in a bar in Seville a week before Madeleine's abduction.
It claimed the man was working on the instruction of others and told fellow drinkers he was going to the Algarve.
The latest development comes on the day Portuguese police were forced to defend their reputation amid allegations that they were enjoying boozy lunches while the search for Madeleine continued. Armed police officers were also criticised by Madeleine's aunt for preventing her from putting up posters of the little girl at Lisbon Airport.
Senior police officers involved in the investigation were seen laughing and joking as images of the missing four-year-old and her desperate parents appeared on a restaurant TV screen.
It happened at a lunch lasting nearly two hours as Kate and Gerry McCann were away campaigning in Europe. (hard at work, unlike the PJ)
They laughed and cracked jokes as they enjoyed a meal washed down with wine and whisky - as footage of the couple played in the background.
Afterwards, they left a table littered with empty glasses - and went back to work. ( grr... does this journo expect full glasses, washing up?)
Yesterday Policia Judiciara (PJ) spokesman Olegario Sousa, one of the officers spotted having lunch, said it was up to the individual to decide what he or she ate and drank.
Asked if it was acceptable for police to drink alcohol in their lunch break he said: "I don't know, it is very, very sad but a person's free time is for lunch. That is normal to do.
"The persons are in charge in the day, they are working in the day but they must eat and drink - it is normal.
"I drink what I want to drink when I can drink."
When it was put to him that he had been seen drinking, he said: "Have you seen anyone drunk? Have you seen any action deterred by that?"
Mr Sousa and Goncalo Amaral, head of the regional PJ, were spotted as Kate and Gerry McCann travelled to Berlin and Amsterdam to appeal for more information about their missing daughter.
In Portimao, a town near where the four-year-old was snatched 35 days ago, a diner at fish restaurant Carvi said he recognised the police officials.
"I knew who they were because Mr Sousa has been all over the TV and in the papers," he said.
The diner watched as officers enjoyed the lunch, which took place a short walk from the police station less than 24 hours after Kate and Gerry McCann were told that everything possible was being done to find their little girl.
Then - in what looked like becoming the first arrest in this case after nearly five weeks, a photographer trying to take a picture of them emerging from the restaurant was detained, held for four hours, fingerprinted, interviewed, and had his camera confiscated. He has now been formally named as an 'Arguido' - the same status as the chief suspect in Madeleine's disappearance, Robert Murat. (is this an outright lie? I've never heard of a journalist being made 'arguido' for taking a photograph!
On Tuesday, two groups went to two separate restaurants. The bigger party did not begin to leave for an hour and three-quarters. The smaller party had a 50-euro meal of fish and wine and shared jokes between what appeared to be discussion about police business. (No size of the parties is given, I expect 50 euros is about right for two or three people for lunch - how is this relevant?)
On Wednesday, the party included senior figures from police headquarters at Portimao, where the investigation is based. One of them was Ch Insp Olegario Sousa, the public face of the inquiry, who appears on TV at press conferences. Another was Goncalo Amaral, number three in the investigation and a well-known figure in major police operations.
At 12.50pm the two men strolled across a sun-drenched square to Carvi restaurant, a regular haunt that specialises in fresh seafood and lobster straight from the tank. Inside, they formed a table of four with two other officers. ( - and what did you expect them to do? A square dance?)
The diner said: 'They asked for the Portuguese TV news to be switched on and sat at the table watching it. It must have been about 2pm. Madeleine's parents had given a press conference in Berlin and they came on the screen.'
At that Berlin conference, Gerry McCann had made it clear he was confident police were doing all they could to find Madeleine. During a live broadcast that morning he had said: 'We have had no doubts about the desire of the police to find Madeleine. We have witnessed their efforts first hand and they're working harder than Kate and I.'
The diner added: 'The police were laughing and joking among themselves while it was on. They seemed to be sharing some sort of joke. Whatever it was, I thought that laughing like that in public was in really poor taste. (Gerry was seen laughing heartily just days after 3/5)
'They had a bottle of chilled wine with the meal but they had a bottle of whisky on the table after the main course as well. I was pretty shocked to see they were drinking whisky at lunchtime. The bottle was passing between them for about half an hour. (Do tell - did they drink or just have a game?)
'Someone on another table seemed to know them and joked about them having two-hour lunches and knocking back Johnnie Walker Black. He said they would get themselves in the papers.
'There was a guy in a red shirt holding court about Portuguese law. They were discussing a change in the law being planned for Arguidos.' (Portuguese for suspect).
Two of the party left, then Ch Insp Sousa left on his own, leaving a colleague behind.
'I got the impression they went there regularly - they were very friendly with the waiter. I don't know what time they came in but I was there for a good 90 minutes and when I left, one of them was still slumped back in his chair in the corner with the whisky bottle in front of him. He was a big sweaty guy and he was sagging into the chair. The table was littered with empty glasses. (So you're implying he was stinking drunk? Big and sweaty - is that a hint?)
'There was some sort of commotion and I heard someone shout out. They swore and said something about the 'Paparazzi Ingles' (English Paparazzi) hiding behind the door.'
One officer had insisted privately the Madeleine officers had been working 'punishing hours', sometimes sleeping overnight at the station in the early days of the inquiry.
Philomena McCann, Madeleine's aunt, said such behaviour would not be acceptable in the UK: "If it were detectives from Scotland Yard there would be absolute uproar.
"But we have to let them to get on with their work because that's all we have to rely on. ( Why didn't you write: Big, sweaty Philomena? or is it only a crime to be big and sweaty if you're Portuguese?)
"It is a different country and we have to accept the way that they do things and that it is a different culture where they have lunches and siestas but we hope the work is made up at other times."
She then told how armed police officers stopped her putting up posters of the little girl at Lisbon airport. (I'm stunned, big sweaty ones?)
She and another relative were travelling from the Algarve to the holy shrine at Fatima when they made a diversion to the airport.
Kate McCann had noticed there were no pictures up when she passed through on her way to Madrid.
"She was so upset to think there were so many tourists coming in and out and nothing there to remind people of Madeleine," said Ms McCann.
"She asked me to make a detour on the way. I was given permission to put the posters up by a woman on the information desk.
"But straightaway we were swooped on by two armed police officers. I was with a relative who was bodily manhandled by them. (They didn't manhandle you? Not enough officers?)
"We went back to the information desk and there was a big row between the woman and the police."
Ms McCann said the director of the airport Dr Francisco Severino told them they could fax a request which would be considered.
"It would be fair to say we were unimpressed by their unhelpful attitude," she said. "We were very badly treated.( the director rolled up, count yourself well served).
"It seemed clear they didn't want the negativity affecting tourism but I think they are doing the wrong thing.
"Surely if people think the police and the authorities are doing everything they can to find Madeleine other families visiting Portugal would feel more secure."
Ms McCann said she had asked junior Justice Minister Baroness Ashton to put pressure on to change their policy.
The McCanns are back in Portugal today ahead of a trip to Morocco, where there has been a reported sighting of Madeleine.
In Praia da Luz today, the couple watched as 1,000 yellow balloons calling for information about Madeleine were released into the air.
Meanwhile in Praia da Luz, the Algarve resort from which Madeleine vanished on May 3, police removed their 'do not cross' tape from the McCanns' holiday apartment and withdrew all police presence exceprt for one uniformed officer outside. Alipio Ribiero, national director of the Judicial Police, said: 'The Judicial Police are seriously investigating this case. It could take time but we continue in the Algarve, even if our presence is not noticed.'
The exhausted couple had their hopes dramatically raised that their daughter was still alive yesterday - only to see them dashed.
The couple's planned flight to Amsterdam on Wednesday night was held for three hours in Berlin after what appeared to be a crucial breakthrough.
They were told that a "credible call" had been received by Spanish police from a man suggesting he knew where Madeleine was and saying that he wanted to talk to the McCanns.
The call was reportedly traced to an unregistered pay-as-you-go phone outside Europe.
The caller did not disclose his identity, but the information supplied was apparently so specific that British police liaising with the Portuguese inquiry felt it necessary to tell the McCanns immediately.
The couple were advised that the mystery source might try to make contact, and that they should delay their flight in case he called when they were in the air.
As frantic efforts were made to re-establish contact with the caller the McCanns were whisked off the flight, waiting anxiously for nearly three hours at the British Embassy in Berlin. The man never called back.(No doubt the Portuguese officer were drunk and had lost the number?)
Journalists on the plane were told that the crew had been asked to draw up a new flight plan involving a possible switch of destination from Amsterdam to East Midlands Airport, close to the McCanns' Leicestershire home. (This was a private jet so interesting that journos travelled with them, diverting a plane would be no trouble but it seems from the blog that they were more bothered having missed two evening news programmes and had to make do with just the one press conference the following day).
But at 7.30pm the flight was cleared to continue to Amsterdam, where the McCanns pressed ahead with their European campaign to keep their daughter in the public mind.
Soon after they touched down, it appeared that the call was a hoax, or was no longer being treated with any urgency.
Spanish police categorically denied that they had received such a call, as did the Spanish Interior Ministry.
It was an illustration of the kind of distractions the McCanns are having to endure in their relentless search for information about Madeleine, who vanished more than a month ago during the family's holiday in Portugal.
Another followed soon afterwards when a Spanish newspaper quoted an "investigative journalist" claiming he knew the identity of Madeleine's abductor, and suggesting she had been stolen to order by a paedophile ring.
Last night, however, there was no indication that police were investigating the claim. (So Spanish police is no good either,
)____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by Liz Eagles 31.07.15 15:36
In answer to your question I have no idea but there does seem to be clear evidence that the police authorities of two countries agreed upon the introduction of blood/cadaver dogs to specifically investigate not only the holiday apartment 5A but also the car hired by the McCanns five weeks after the disappearance of Madeleine. The dogs alerted to both in a controlled, professional environment. It seems the dogs' findings have been much maligned. The Summers & Swan book, the McCann PR machine, the McCanns themselves and not least of all the gutter press of UK who'll do anything for a fast buck. Gerald McCann saying something along the lines of 'dogs can be notoriously unreliable' doesn't really wash with people. No declaration has ever been made by the McCanns or their very expensive PR as to how many times such dogs have been unreliable.jean-pierre.t50 wrote:Is there any evidence of the existence of a 'first teport''? One which should definite results?
The fact remains there is no clear report about what happened with these dog findings and the subsequent forensics. The likes of Summers & Swann can write as many books as they like with spurious inference they are privilege to the ear of Scotland Yard but it won't make a scrap of difference to the publication that these dogs alerted to blood and cadaver scent. I'm assuming Gerald McCann wants everyone to believe he had (on his visits to Washington and his very expensive expert paid for advice) single handedly managed to dispel the fact that Eddie and Keela were completely worthy and useful and there is 'hope'.
As a simple person I find that very difficult to understand.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by jean-pierre.t50 31.07.15 23:28
Yes, I agree that both police forces agreed on the use of dogs, and cooperated on this, both in terms of search and gathering and analysis of forensics. The dogs are a superb tool for the gathering of forensic evidence, by narrowing down a search area and marking areas where forensic evidence may be gathered.aquila wrote:In answer to your question I have no idea but there does seem to be clear evidence that the police authorities of two countries agreed upon the introduction of blood/cadaver dogs to specifically investigate not only the holiday apartment 5A but also the car hired by the McCanns five weeks after the disappearance of Madeleine. The dogs alerted to both in a controlled, professional environment. It seems the dogs' findings have been much maligned. The Summers & Swan book, the McCann PR machine, the McCanns themselves and not least of all the gutter press of UK who'll do anything for a fast buck. Gerald McCann saying something along the lines of 'dogs can be notoriously unreliable' doesn't really wash with people. No declaration has ever been made by the McCanns or their very expensive PR as to how many times such dogs have been unreliable.jean-pierre.t50 wrote:Is there any evidence of the existence of a 'first teport''? One which should definite results?
The fact remains there is no clear report about what happened with these dog findings and the subsequent forensics. The likes of Summers & Swann can write as many books as they like with spurious inference they are privilege to the ear of Scotland Yard but it won't make a scrap of difference to the publication that these dogs alerted to blood and cadaver scent. I'm assuming Gerald McCann wants everyone to believe he had (on his visits to Washington and his very expensive expert paid for advice) single handedly managed to dispel the fact that Eddie and Keela were completely worthy and useful and there is 'hope'.
As a simple person I find that very difficult to understand.
One of the particular features of Portuguese law (stemming from the desire to redress the secrecy during the years of dictatorship) is that once a case has reached a certain stage - closure or proceeding to trial, all of the relevant case files are open to public scrutiny. In this case, because of the public interest, the files were made available on a dvd - usually it would be the physical files at the local office.
You say in your response "The fact remains there is no clear report about what happened with these dog findings and the subsequent forensics"
With respect, the files made available contain very comprehensive data on the searches, on the methodology, on the gathering of forensic evidence and on the analysis of that evidence. It shows an extremely professional, methodical and thorough process by all concerned. The conclusion reached and recorded in the files is that the forensic findings were inconclusive. In legal terms, this means that no conclusion can be drawn.
It has been suggested that there were exist some secret, hidden files which have not be revealed and these contain the real damning evidence. Or that there was an original report which showed evidence of death in the apartment or linking madeleine with the hire car, and that this report may be have been redacted in favour of an inconclusive report. This would be both so contrary to Portuguese law, and so insulting to the professionalism of the Portuguese police and judiciary overseeing the case, that it is unthinkable.
There have also been suggestions that, given a number of alerts by the dogs in various place, why is there no specific forensic evidence of madeleine's death or linking her to the hire car? The possibilities are a "fix", (which I personally discount but accept others may have suspicions) or incompetence (the dogs were right but the humans could not find the evidence). This to my mind is also wrong - Martin Grime himself states, quite rightly, that alerts are only of value if backed up by forensic evidence.
My opinion is that the both dogs did alert, but to blood. Given there is a lot more dried blood around than human cadaver odour, that would seem to be a not unreasonably supposition. In support for this proposition, I would cite the finding of several traces of blood in various places, and no found traces of decaying human tissue.
As always happy to debate these issues but this is where, having read extensively around this case, I stand.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by TMH 01.08.15 0:39
But Eddie (cadaver and blood dog) alerted to places that Keela (blood dog only) didn't so therefore, cadaver scent was detectedjean-pierre.t50 wrote:
My opinion is that the both dogs did alert, but to blood. Given there is a lot more dried blood around than human cadaver odour, that would seem to be a not unreasonably supposition. In support for this proposition, I would cite the finding of several traces of blood in various places, and no found traces of decaying human tissue.
As always happy to debate these issues but this is where, having read extensively around this case, I stand.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by Liz Eagles 01.08.15 21:56
@TMH, I concur, it's always been my understanding that cadaver scent was detected.TMH wrote:But Eddie (cadaver and blood dog) alerted to places that Keela (blood dog only) didn't so therefore, cadaver scent was detectedjean-pierre.t50 wrote:
My opinion is that the both dogs did alert, but to blood. Given there is a lot more dried blood around than human cadaver odour, that would seem to be a not unreasonably supposition. In support for this proposition, I would cite the finding of several traces of blood in various places, and no found traces of decaying human tissue.
As always happy to debate these issues but this is where, having read extensively around this case, I stand.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by jean-pierre.t50 03.08.15 16:54
I have seen that suggestion before - and it is worth examining. Which places exactly, and what forensic evidence was found in those places?TMH wrote:But Eddie (cadaver and blood dog) alerted to places that Keela (blood dog only) didn't so therefore, cadaver scent was detectedjean-pierre.t50 wrote:
My opinion is that the both dogs did alert, but to blood. Given there is a lot more dried blood around than human cadaver odour, that would seem to be a not unreasonably supposition. In support for this proposition, I would cite the finding of several traces of blood in various places, and no found traces of decaying human tissue.
As always happy to debate these issues but this is where, having read extensively around this case, I stand.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by TMH 03.08.15 21:32
There's no "forensic evidence" as you probably know, but Eddie wouldn't alert if there was no smell of cadaver so that's enough evidence for me to say that someone died in 5Ajean-pierre.t50 wrote:I have seen that suggestion before - and it is worth examining. Which places exactly, and what forensic evidence was found in those places?TMH wrote:But Eddie (cadaver and blood dog) alerted to places that Keela (blood dog only) didn't so therefore, cadaver scent was detectedjean-pierre.t50 wrote:
My opinion is that the both dogs did alert, but to blood. Given there is a lot more dried blood around than human cadaver odour, that would seem to be a not unreasonably supposition. In support for this proposition, I would cite the finding of several traces of blood in various places, and no found traces of decaying human tissue.
As always happy to debate these issues but this is where, having read extensively around this case, I stand.
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Re: The McCanns’ libelling of others: Martin Grime
by Jill Havern 04.08.15 6:28
Lizzy Hideho Taylor HiDeHo CONTROVERSY of Madeleine McCann
WHAT ARE THE CHANCES THE DOGS 'LIED'? A favourite topic for those that like to discredit and claim 'Dog's are not reliable'. Forensics were retrieved from where Keela the BLOOD dog alerted, confirming her alerts were successful. A MATCH to Madeleine's DNA was found. (Cannot be determined whether Madeleine was in the car or a chance match, but a MATCH!
NOTHING EXCLUDES the DNA results from belonging to Madeleine The dogs alerted to ONLY items belonging to the McCanns. No-one had died in the apartment previously to Madeleine's disappearance.
Efforts to discredit any one or all of the findings listed below but WHAT ARE THE CHANCES of ALL of them being incorrect alerts?
WHAT ARE THE CHANCES of 15 of Madeleine's 19 markers found (Even if she shares with her parents/siblings WHAT ARE THE CHANCES that they ALL left some of their DNA in those locations?
The VOLUME of alerts cannot be disputed.
Dogs alerted successfully and nothing to exclude the results belonging to Madeleine.
WHAT ARE THE CHANCES?
CADAVER DOG -
* Alerts in McCann's bedroom
* Alerts behind sofa (May be blood alert)
* Alerts to 2 pieces of Kate's clothing a top and trousers(which were worn together?)
* Alerts to a small red Tshirt
* Alerts to the drivers side of rented car
* (and more)
--------------------------------------------------------
BLOOD DOG
* Alerts of BLOOD behind the SOFA
Processo 10 - VOLUME Xa - '...all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann.'
* Alerts of BLOOD in the luggage compartment of the RENTAL CAR
Processo 10 - VOLUME Xa - '...Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total.'
'"Is there DNA from Madeline (sic) on the swab?"
It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.
What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. '
NOTE: Eddie the Cadaver dog alerts to both blood and cadaver odour so used in tandem with Keela the blood dog. If Keela does not alert then the result is cadaver odour.
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