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NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by Concerned ex pat on 01.09.15 10:53

I missed Snook's post very true. Private = profit, that is their driver do not believe there is any other motive as the bottom line. Profitable services will be creamed off one by one and the NHS will struggle to pick up the tab of the rest due to poor investment from the state.


Insurance is already being mentioned quietly. That of course means free at the point of use so long as you meet the insurance test and pre existing conditions will be exempt until you have paid the insurance for a number of years. If free state health care eventually becomes means tested you will all be worse off unless you can afford a good policy or good private care.

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by PeterMac on 01.09.15 11:48

@BlueBag wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:There needs to be an urgent re-think, but by people with a totally open mind, not those who start by wanting to retain something that even in 1945 was unsustainable
Sorry Peter, but we sustained it for a very long time

That is my point.
It was "sustained" On Life support, by pumping in money.
Then came Labour who pumped in more money, which got spent on Administration and Bureaucracy, not on doctors, nurses, and buildings
Then came the disastrous PFI contracts for hospitals, which have effectively bankrupted several Trusts

No one foresaw cancer drugs at £ 1,000 to sustain the life of a patient for a few months.
No one foresaw the ready availability of successive breast enlargements for what we once called prostitutes, but are now called "celebrities",
or of "gender reassignment" for people with serious psychiatric problems.
No one foresaw the dramatic success in oncology generally
No one foresaw the huge increase in the survival of the old, (Mostly due to public health messages, incidentally - not to the NHS - smoking, exercise, diet advice)
No one foresaw the general increase in demand, - for example the intolerable pressure put on "Casualty" now re-badged A&E, each weekend with alcohol and drug related cases
No one foresaw the dramatic DECREASE in the general health of the young, due to obesity, drugs, and various other things.
None of this was foreseen in 1945.

Tempora mutantur et nos mutamur in illis.
πάντα χωρεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει
(google it . I did !)

That is what I meant when I said there should be a new look at what the NHS should be doing - at all. Just as there has to be a new look at what the Police do.
What do we expect, and what are we prepared to pay for it.

Each of has our own lists, I am sure, of what is and is not to be provided through taxation of those who work

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by sallypelt on 01.09.15 12:12

@PeterMac wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:There needs to be an urgent re-think, but by people with a totally open mind, not those who start by wanting to retain something that even in 1945 was unsustainable
Sorry Peter, but we sustained it for a very long time

That is my point.
It was "sustained"   On Life support, by pumping in money.
Then came Labour who pumped in more money, which got spent on Administration and Bureaucracy, not on doctors, nurses, and buildings
Then came the disastrous PFI contracts for hospitals, which have effectively bankrupted several Trusts

No one foresaw cancer drugs at £ 1,000 to sustain the life of a patient for a few months.
No one foresaw the ready availability of successive breast enlargements for what we once called prostitutes, but are now called "celebrities",
or of "gender reassignment" for people with serious psychiatric problems.
No one foresaw the dramatic success in oncology generally
No one foresaw the huge increase in the survival of the old, (Mostly due to public health messages, incidentally - not to the NHS - smoking, exercise, diet advice)
No one foresaw the general increase in demand, - for example the intolerable pressure put on "Casualty" now re-badged A&E, each weekend with alcohol and drug related cases
No one foresaw the dramatic DECREASE in the general health of the young, due to obesity, drugs, and various other things.
None of this was foreseen in 1945.

Tempora mutantur et nos mutamur in illis.
πάντα χωρεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει      
                 (google it .  I did !)

That is what I meant when I said there should be a new look at what the NHS should be doing - at all.   Just as there has to be a new look at what the Police do.  
What do we expect, and what are we prepared to pay for it.

Each of has our own lists, I am sure, of what is and is not to be provided through taxation of those who work
Snipped from Petermac's above post:

"That is my point.
It was "sustained" On Life support, by pumping in money.
Then came Labour who pumped in more money, which got spent on Administration and Bureaucracy, not on doctors, nurses, and buildings
Then came the disastrous PFI contracts for hospitals, which have effectively bankrupted several Trusts"


I TOTALLY agree with you, Petermac. At the time, I was sitting on hospital boards, and, as you say, when Labour came to power in 1997, the money that was pumped into the NHS was unbelievable. Even the doctors and nurses were saying that there was no shortage of money, at that time, but there were still huge structural problems, and to coin a phrase, it was like pouring water into a bucket with a huge hole in it.

The problems, unfortunately, began at the inception of the NHS back in 1948. The doctors demanded too much, and the government gave in to them, because they wanted the NHS no matter what, and this has been a thorn in the side of the NHS ever since. We can't keep pouring money into something that has a huge breach in its damn. NEVERTHELESS, I will defend the NHS to the death. Without a healthy and educated society, a country is useless, and our NHS, with all its faults, is the envy of the world. TREATMENT should always remain free at the point of delivery. All THE NHS  needs is a bit of tweaking (mainly at the top) and it can remain being the envy of world.

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by BlueBag on 01.09.15 14:44

Then came the disastrous PFI contracts for hospitals, which have effectively bankrupted several Trusts"

Yes. This was outrageous.

People should go to prison for this scam.

These criminal PFI arrangements should be cancelled.. no ifs.. no buts.

We end up paying for a hospital 10 times more than it cost to build.

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by PeterMac on 01.09.15 16:01

@BlueBag wrote:
Then came the disastrous PFI contracts for hospitals, which have effectively bankrupted several Trusts"
Yes. This was outrageous.
People should go to prison for this scam.
These criminal PFI arrangements should be cancelled.. no ifs.. no buts.
We end up paying for a hospital 10 times more than it cost to build.

And of course it was successive Chancellors of the Exchequer, because by using PFI they could keep the real cost off the National Balance sheet, if I may put it that way for people unfamiliar with the British problem. It looks like a long term investment, but in fact can cost, as you say, over ten times what it would have cost to build and equip a hospital from scratch.
The money appears on the Revenue side of the account, rather than the Capital side.

The Police got stuffed with these as well. I spoke against the police Traffic department being handed over to a PFI project, and failed my next promotion board (What a coincidence !)
And when the music stops and there is no more money - PFI are contractual obligations, which continue for the full term, sometimes 30 years, and therefore cannot be avoided.\
So to start each year by setting aside the money for the Building Contract, and then see if any is left over for Police, or nurses or doctors. And increasingly there isn't.

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by tigger on 01.09.15 16:21

Alan Milburn gave PFI  what they wanted.  He's doing extremely well himself, is a multi millionaire  and lives in Australia I think. Antarctica would be my preferred place for the self-serving politicians who were let loose on the unsuspecting British public under Blair.

By the way, bit of luck for Blair to have Diana's death so soon after his accession, his speech and the way it was played  in the media - it was a brilliant construct of Mandellson - that's what I think anyway. Gave the British public the impression Blair was a really touchy-feely man, who really, really cared about them.

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by snook on 01.09.15 16:32

PFI are certainly the work of the devil.  We have a huge hospital which was rebuilt under this sceme. My mother was being treated for cancer whilst the build was in progress.  What a swanky new cancer unit was growing every day we visited. Pity they didn't make the ward doors large enough to get a bed in! Did the builder have to address this at its own cost? No. It was an additional cost to the build! This hospital now has to pay £70 everytime a lightbulb is changed as part of the PFI the contractor runs the maintenance contracts as well. Our local school is also being rebuilt under PFI. This when the home economics classes have one pastry brush between 30 children.

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by Concerned ex pat on 01.09.15 22:00

I've just come across a documentary 'NHS sell off'. There's an accompanying website and it's on you tube. It is free to watch and I am watching it now.

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by PeterMac on 01.09.15 22:48

@snook wrote:Pity they didn't make the ward doors large enough to get a bed in! Did the builder have to address this at its own cost? No.

Now wind back to Grimsby, 1950s, (and to all other Labour strongholds . . .)
The Socialist revolution, brothers, of high rise warehousing of the lumpenproleteraiat.
My father, a GP, asked in all innocence whether the lifts would be able to accommodate a coffin.
He was brushed aside
They were built
They couldn't.

They had to cut a special hole in one end of the lift, with a special key . . . . .

They were demolished many years ago.
As was Socialism.

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by Concerned ex pat on 01.09.15 23:10

I get the message...

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by BlueBag on 02.09.15 6:49

@PeterMac wrote:
@snook wrote:Pity they didn't make the ward doors large enough to get a bed in! Did the builder have to address this at its own cost? No.

Now wind back to Grimsby, 1950s, (and to all other Labour strongholds . . .)
The Socialist revolution, brothers, of high rise warehousing of the lumpenproleteraiat.
My father, a GP, asked in all innocence whether the lifts would be able to accommodate a coffin.
He was brushed aside
They were built
They couldn't.

They had to cut a special hole in one end of the lift, with a special key  . . . . .

They were demolished many years ago.  
As was Socialism.
Yes, all very well... there are no examples of stupidity by non-socialist authorities?

Also Peter, remind us who was in power throughout the 1950s and what promises they had made the electorate about building social housing (that councils had to fulfill).

http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2013/10/how-macmillan-built-300000-houses-a-year.html

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by PeterMac on 02.09.15 9:59

Houses, not Stalinist concrete warehouses for the Lumpenproleteriat.
Remember the Wall in Sheffield. Someone got an award for that.

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by BlueBag on 02.09.15 10:13

@PeterMac wrote:Houses, not Stalinist concrete warehouses for the Lumpenproleteriat.
Remember the Wall in Sheffield. Someone got an award for that.
You didn't read the article.

MacMillan visited Sheffield and said the flats were looking good.


 In his diary for 12 December 1953 he wrote: “A tour round Sheffield. The architect seemed very good. Some new flats (on the hill) should be very good.”


The Tories didn't care much what the plebs got to live in, it was a numbers game back in the 50s.

You can't just blame socialists.

Were the architects socialist?

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Re: NHS - should we save it or privatise it?

Post by plebgate on 02.09.15 18:03

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11832487/Nigerian-mother-let-off-145000-NHS-bill-after-birth-of-quins.html

How many more have there been since 2011?

NHS bosses think it is too much trouble chasing health tourists  -  yeah they deserve their massive salaries because they know even though health tourists are not chased, the hard working, tax paying fools in UK will be chased and in some cases jailed if they do not pay the taxes which allow this sort of disgraceful behaviour.

PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH and more PAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Once you're in you're in.   Yep sounds right.

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