McCanns v Amaral trial is NOT LIBEL!

@OxfordBloo,  I think you might find this thread on the subject here interesting in what Onehand a poster on here at CMOMM has to say about the verdict.

Re: McCann family vs Amaral et al Judgment Verdict - April 27, 2015: Translated by Anne Guedes

  onehand on Sun May 10, 2015 5:34 am

Joss wrote:

OxfordBloo wrote:

BlueBag wrote:Amaral said it was his opinion they had been involved in the concealment of a body.

That was the opinion also found in the PJ files.

He also makes many more substantial statements.

That aside, the judgement found that because of his position he was bound by more duties and obligations tban an ordinary citizen.

I have left the computer with the judgement on it but later I will quote from the judgement a clear case quoted by the judge of breaking his obligations.

I do really feel that people should read the judgement if they want to criticise it. It is minutely reasoned and it seems very difficult to avoid the conclusion reached by the judge once one sees the actual Portuguese Law quoted.

I expected the case to be thrown out but once I read the judgement in full, I began to understand the judge's reasoning.

Where are you going with all of this, if i might ask you? You stated upthread that you had some kind of legal scource, would you not be better to discuss this with your scource, as they would be able to verify your position better? I am not sure, but i don't think any of us here know exactly what the appeals court will determine in this legal matter, and am not really sure what you exactly want to discuss  in this thread? If you are so sure about what you are saying, what is there to discuss?

The 72 page judgement is available online in Portuguese. I am merely quoting from the judgement itself.

OxfordBloo wrote:

Joss wrote:

OxfordBloo wrote:

BlueBag wrote:Amaral said it was his opinion they had been involved in the concealment of a body.

That was the opinion also found in the PJ files.

He also makes many more substantial statements.

That aside, the judgement found that because of his position he was bound by more duties and obligations tban an ordinary citizen.

I have left the computer with the judgement on it but later I will quote from the judgement a clear case quoted by the judge of breaking his obligations.

I do really feel that people should read the judgement if they want to criticise it. It is minutely reasoned and it seems very difficult to avoid the conclusion reached by the judge once one sees the actual Portuguese Law quoted.

I expected the case to be thrown out but once I read the judgement in full, I began to understand the judge's reasoning.

Where are you going with all of this, if i might ask you? You stated upthread that you had some kind of legal scource, would you not be better to discuss this with your scource, as they would be able to verify your position better? I am not sure, but i don't think any of us here know exactly what the appeals court will determine in this legal matter, and am not really sure what you exactly want to discuss  in this thread? If you are so sure about what you are saying, what is there to discuss?

The 72 page judgement is available online in Portuguese. I am merely quoting from the judgement itself.

I'm sure GA's lawyers have a much better grasp on the judgment and there will be an appeal. It's comforting to know there are funds mounting up to assist.

wδχσχχδφφφυ ψχaquila wrote:

OxfordBloo wrote:

Joss wrote:

OxfordBloo wrote:

BlueBag wrote:Amaral said it was his opinion they had been involved in the concealment of a body.

That was the opinion also found in the PJ files.

He also makes many more substantial statements.

That aside, the judgement found that because of his position he was bound by more duties and obligations tban an ordinary citizen.

I have left the computer with the judgement on it but later I will quote from the judgement a clear case quoted by the judge of breaking his obligations.

I do really feel that people should read the judgement if they want to criticise it. It is minutely reasoned and it seems very difficult to avoid the conclusion reached by the judge once one sees the actual Portuguese Law quoted.

I expected the case to be thrown out but once I read the judgement in full, I began to understand the judge's reasoning.

Where are you going with all of this, if i might ask you? You stated upthread that you had some kind of legal scource, would you not be better to discuss this with your scource, as they would be able to verify your position better? I am not sure, but i don't think any of us here know exactly what the appeals court will determine in this legal matter, and am not really sure what you exactly want to discuss  in this thread? If you are so sure about what you are saying, what is there to discuss?

The 72 page judgement is available online in Portuguese. I am merely quoting from the judgement itself.

I'm sure GA's lawyers have a much better grasp on the judgment and there will be an appeal. It's comforting to know there are funds mounting up to assist.

My version of the Portuguese verdict has only 52 pages.
The English translation of Anne Guedes about the same.
Her translators notes are worth a read as well.
All to be found on Pamalams site.


@aquila Up to now there's only one lawyer known acting for Gonçalo Amaral.
Dr. Miguel Cruz Rodrigues.

parapono

parapono wrote:

wδχσχχδφφφυ ψχaquila wrote:

OxfordBloo wrote:

Joss wrote:

OxfordBloo wrote:

BlueBag wrote:Amaral said it was his opinion they had been involved in the concealment of a body.

That was the opinion also found in the PJ files.

He also makes many more substantial statements.

That aside, the judgement found that because of his position he was bound by more duties and obligations tban an ordinary citizen.

I have left the computer with the judgement on it but later I will quote from the judgement a clear case quoted by the judge of breaking his obligations.

I do really feel that people should read the judgement if they want to criticise it. It is minutely reasoned and it seems very difficult to avoid the conclusion reached by the judge once one sees the actual Portuguese Law quoted.

I expected the case to be thrown out but once I read the judgement in full, I began to understand the judge's reasoning.

Where are you going with all of this, if i might ask you? You stated upthread that you had some kind of legal scource, would you not be better to discuss this with your scource, as they would be able to verify your position better? I am not sure, but i don't think any of us here know exactly what the appeals court will determine in this legal matter, and am not really sure what you exactly want to discuss  in this thread? If you are so sure about what you are saying, what is there to discuss?

The 72 page judgement is available online in Portuguese. I am merely quoting from the judgement itself.

I'm sure GA's lawyers have a much better grasp on the judgment and there will be an appeal. It's comforting to know there are funds mounting up to assist.

My version of the Portuguese verdict has only 52 pages.
The English translation of Anne Guedes about the same.
Her translators notes are worth a read as well.
All to be found on Pamalams site.


@aquila Up to now there's only one lawyer known acting for Gonçalo Amaral.
Dr. Miguel Cruz Rodrigues.

parapono

Sorry, I worded it wrongly.

@aquila
  that's okay, εντάξι έιναι.

Joss wrote:

OxfordBloo wrote:

BlueBag wrote:Amaral said it was his opinion they had been involved in the concealment of a body.

That was the opinion also found in the PJ files.

He also makes many more substantial statements.

That aside, the judgement found that because of his position he was bound by more duties and obligations tban an ordinary citizen.

I have left the computer with the judgement on it but later I will quote from the judgement a clear case quoted by the judge of breaking his obligations.

I do really feel that people should read the judgement if they want to criticise it. It is minutely reasoned and it seems very difficult to avoid the conclusion reached by the judge once one sees the actual Portuguese Law quoted.

I expected the case to be thrown out but once I read the judgement in full, I began to understand the judge's reasoning.

Where are you going with all of this, if i might ask you? You stated upthread that you had some kind of legal scource, would you not be better to discuss this with your scource, as they would be able to verify your position better? I am not sure, but i don't think any of us here know exactly what the appeals court will determine in this legal matter, and am not really sure what you exactly want to discuss  in this thread? If you are so sure about what you are saying, what is there to discuss?

I am not 'going' anywhere. I am merely providing the bones of the Judgement with references to the legal authorities quoted by the Judge.

As I said, I had expected the judgement to be thrown out on the grounds of free speech, but was not aware of the provisions of Portuguese Law quoted by the Judge which seem to confirm that there is a duty of confidentiality and fidelity imposed on Portuguese Police and other state servants that endures beyond their retirement. It is difficult to see how the judgement can be easily appealed given those restrictions placed on those state servants as listed above.

parapono wrote:

wδχσχχδφφφυ ψχaquila wrote:

OxfordBloo wrote:

Joss wrote:

OxfordBloo wrote:

BlueBag wrote:Amaral said it was his opinion they had been involved in the concealment of a body.

That was the opinion also found in the PJ files.

He also makes many more substantial statements.

That aside, the judgement found that because of his position he was bound by more duties and obligations tban an ordinary citizen.

I have left the computer with the judgement on it but later I will quote from the judgement a clear case quoted by the judge of breaking his obligations.

I do really feel that people should read the judgement if they want to criticise it. It is minutely reasoned and it seems very difficult to avoid the conclusion reached by the judge once one sees the actual Portuguese Law quoted.

I expected the case to be thrown out but once I read the judgement in full, I began to understand the judge's reasoning.

Where are you going with all of this, if i might ask you? You stated upthread that you had some kind of legal scource, would you not be better to discuss this with your scource, as they would be able to verify your position better? I am not sure, but i don't think any of us here know exactly what the appeals court will determine in this legal matter, and am not really sure what you exactly want to discuss  in this thread? If you are so sure about what you are saying, what is there to discuss?

The 72 page judgement is available online in Portuguese. I am merely quoting from the judgement itself.

I'm sure GA's lawyers have a much better grasp on the judgment and there will be an appeal. It's comforting to know there are funds mounting up to assist.

My version of the Portuguese verdict has only 52 pages.
The English translation of Anne Guedes about the same.
Her translators notes are worth a read as well.
All to be found on Pamalams site.


@aquila Up to now there's only one lawyer known acting for Gonçalo Amaral.
Dr. Miguel Cruz Rodrigues.

parapono

I have read Anne Guedes translation together with anothe translation. They are broadly comparable. Everything I have listed above is in the origoinal Portuguese and available in Anne Guedes' translation.

It does seem perverse that these duties of confidentiality are imposed on officials.....and yet Portuguese law allows the case files, which are presumably also equally confidential, to be published
and available for the whole world to read! Where's the confidentiality in that? These case files have been produced by officials who have also these same duties of confidentiality imposed on them.

No offence here old chap/chapess but you do seem to propound your legal knowledge based on translation(s) and a 'source' which you are unable to identify.

Unlike yourself, I'd rather leave it to Goncalo Amaral's lawyer to decide what's best and his lawyer doesn't need a translation.

This judgment will go to appeal. How could it not? Had GA walked away it would have gone to appeal by the McCanns. It's become a courtroom circus. This damages case is older than Madeleine when she went missing.

No doubt the McCanns have already scripted an appeal for the lack of payment to their twins. You only need look at their recent update to see their possible intent in the process.

Snipped:

"We want to emphasise that the action was never about money. It has always been focused on the effects of the libels on our other children and the damage that was done to the search for Madeleine."

Leave it to the legals is what I say and with a bit of luck Goncalo Amaral will be on some sort of level footing. He never stood a chance of defending himself against an enormous fund/limited company/not charity/lawyers to the stars.

Let them battle it out. GA hasn't given up and neither have quite a few other people.

Just my opinion.

Dr What wrote:It does seem perverse that these duties of confidentiality are imposed on officials.....and yet Portuguese law allows the case files, which are presumably also equally confidential, to be published
and available for the whole world to read! Where's the confidentiality in that? These case files have been produced by officials who have also these same duties of confidentiality imposed on them.

The difference is that the case files were authorised for release formally by the Portuguese legal system whereas Amaral seems to have decided to use his information without permission and against the requirements of the Portuguese Civil Code.  Additionally the case files do not state clearly that the Mccanns are guilty, whereas statements by Amaral do say this.

OxfordBloo wrote:

Dr What wrote:It does seem perverse that these duties of confidentiality are imposed on officials.....and yet Portuguese law allows the case files, which are presumably also equally confidential, to be published
and available for the whole world to read! Where's the confidentiality in that? These case files have been produced by officials who have also these same duties of confidentiality imposed on them.

The difference is that the case files were authorised for release formally by the Portuguese legal system whereas Amaral seems to have decided to use his information without permission and against the requirements of the Portuguese Civil Code.  Additionally the case files do not state clearly that the Mccanns are guilty, whereas statements by Amaral do say this.

Leave it to the lawyers. The Portuguese lawyers.

Wow  - Detective Amaral's choice of words in this statement. Hadn't seen this before. Spotted on a Textusa blog. In the comments section, 2nd Feb 2015.

"Strangled" - twice. "Asphixiated"; "death"; "I am alive"; "destroy" - OMG....

Just how many more lives are going to be ruined by this murderous juggernaut that is the out-of-control TM DISGRACE.

http://www.pjga.blogspot.pt/2015/02/a-message-from-goncalo-amaral.html

A Message from Gonçalo Amaral 

Dear Friends,

The civil suit that was filed against me by the McCann couple is in its final stages, and the decision concerning material facts, which to me seems rather favourable, is already known. A period for legal allegations ensues, after which we will await the verdict, which I envision will translate into my longed for acquittal and the consequent lifting of the attachments that have caused me such extensive financial difficulties over the past five years. This means that it has been only due to your help that I have been able to financially sustain the ongoing lawsuit, which nonetheless cannot be said about my increasingly strangled personal life.

I say strangled because in reality I am experiencing a very serious crisis on an emotional as well as a financial level. This is due to those who have tried to asphyxiate me financially, wishing for my civil death and wanting to place me in a position where I would be unable to react judicially. After five years (counted since the civil suit was filed) the parents of the child that mysteriously disappeared on the 3rd of May of 2007 in the Algarve were not able to fully achieve what they intended. I am alive, I'm able to financially sustain the civil suit, although not much more than that...

Concerning my emotional crisis, I ask you to understand that for me, this whole struggle is not only about the fundamental discovery of the truth, because no matter how optimistic I may be, I can never forget the demand for damages amounting to 1.200.000 Euro that was filed by the couple, which, if absurdly it would be granted, will completely destroy me on all levels.

To all of you, thank you very much.


Gonçalo Amaral


Lisboa, February 2, 2015



http://textusa.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/two-men-and-baby-cot.html

I remember Amaral's message being discussed here, j.rob.  Many of us found it upsetting to read.

Glad you haven't given up!

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10948-goncalo-amaral-s-latest-message-2nd-february-2015

OxfordBloo wrote:

Dr What wrote:It does seem perverse that these duties of confidentiality are imposed on officials.....and yet Portuguese law allows the case files, which are presumably also equally confidential, to be published
and available for the whole world to read! Where's the confidentiality in that? These case files have been produced by officials who have also these same duties of confidentiality imposed on them.

The difference is that the case files were authorised for release formally by the Portuguese legal system whereas Amaral seems to have decided to use his information without permission and against the requirements of the Portuguese Civil Code.  Additionally the case files do not state clearly that the Mccanns are guilty, whereas statements by Amaral do say this.

It was known the case was going to shelved for a while.

What Amaral did in private with information available to him before the shelving is his own business.

What Amaral did after the shelving is release a book containing information that was now available to the public. There is NO law that states a time limit for releasing a book.

What he did in the book was give his opinion on the evidence in that it pointed to the same thing (ie. concealment of a body) as could be found in the public files.

Under Portuguese law he has the right to opinion and freedom of expression.

They have a history of suppression in Portugal and they are fanatical about the right to freedom of speech.

This has already been tested in a higher court.

The judge was pressured somewhere along the line - in my opinion.

BlueBag wrote:

OxfordBloo wrote:

Dr What wrote:It does seem perverse that these duties of confidentiality are imposed on officials.....and yet Portuguese law allows the case files, which are presumably also equally confidential, to be published
and available for the whole world to read! Where's the confidentiality in that? These case files have been produced by officials who have also these same duties of confidentiality imposed on them.

The difference is that the case files were authorised for release formally by the Portuguese legal system whereas Amaral seems to have decided to use his information without permission and against the requirements of the Portuguese Civil Code.  Additionally the case files do not state clearly that the Mccanns are guilty, whereas statements by Amaral do say this.

It was known the case was going to shelved for a while.

What Amaral did in private with information available to him before the shelving is his own business.

What Amaral did after the shelving is release a book containing information that was now available to the public. There is NO law that states a time limit for releasing a book.

What he did in the book was give his opinion on the evidence in that it pointed to the same thing (ie. concealment of a body) as could be found in the public files.

Under Portuguese law he has the right to opinion and freedom of expression.

They have a history of suppression in Portugal and they are fanatical about the right to freedom of speech.

This has already been tested in a higher court.

The judge was pressured somewhere along the line - in my opinion.

There are matters of fact found by the judge:
1/ The book was published using privileged information.
2/ Amaral accused the McCanns in the book and in the interviews of being guilty when they had not been found so.

Both acts are a clear breach of the Portuguese law. The judge gives references to the exact laws involved.

That is one judge's interpretation of the law.

1/ The book was published using privileged information.

It was no longer privileged at the time of publication.

There is no law about time limits.

And Amaral as well as everyone else is entitled to an opinion based on the evidence.

I expect another judge to overturn all this.

Also these are disciplinary matters.

They have no bearing on the effect of the book on the McCanns as anyone could have written this book and given the same opinion and the judge would not be able to clutch at these particular straws.

There will be an appeal. Goncalo Amaral has stated he will appeal.

Whatever OxfordBloo thinks of the judgment is entirely irrelevant as he/she like everyone else doesn't have the faintest idea on what grounds the appeal will be made.

It's good to see some funding going towards assisting GA.

Leave it to the legals and see what transpires. It will be a lengthy process no doubt and remember GA has won on appeal in the past.

Just my opinion.

Amazing that there is so much confidence in Amaral's appeal when no legal basis has been offered for expecting the decision to be overturned, just unsubstantiated arguments that have no foundation in Portuguese law. It's surprising that some posters think they know more about Portuguese legal processes than the judge who considered the situation for months and ultimately made the verdict, backed up by pages and pages of explanation. There is a chance that, upon appeal, Amaral will lose again, be ordered to pay increased compensation plus all additional costs. He could be ruined. Therefore it would be better for him and others to accept the verdict, move on, and set about trying to establish what happened by incorporating any new information not available when the book was published. Donating to a fund without intimate knowledge of the law is rather unwise in my opinion.

BlueBag wrote:That is one judge's interpretation of the law.

1/ The book was published using privileged information.

It was no longer privileged at the time of publication.

There is no law about time limits.

And Amaral as well as everyone else is entitled to an opinion based on the evidence.

I expect another judge to overturn all this.

The judge quotes the Portuguese law that shows that Police Officers are bound by the duty of confidentiality throughout their retirement. It is very specific that retirees retain their status under the law and are bound by all restrictions that apply during their employment.

A case like this does not decide what a judge believes to be right, it decides whether specific laws have been broken. The judge lists clearly what the law is and demonstrates why it is applicable.

We may not like this, but that is what Portuguese law states.

BlueBag wrote:Also these are disciplinary matters.

They have no bearing on the effect of the book on the McCanns as anyone could have written this book and given the same opinion and the judge would not be able to clutch at these particular straws.

The judge quotes the specific laws which make it a civil legal matter under the Portuguese Civil code. They may also be disciplinary offences but the law is very clear. You can look the laws up if you wish- they are referenced above by the Judge with their dates of passing and the actual words used by the lawmakers.


Here are the references directly from the judgement:

"In the case, Kate and Gerald McCann authors never ceased to benefit from presumption of innocence and the imperative of behavior that it puts on the national enforcement and judicial authorities and all its employees and agents." 

"The police have the responsibility of defending democratic legality, protecting internal security and citizens' rights" [artº 272 of the Portuguese Constitution]."

 "The Judicial Police is the upper body of criminal police assisting in the administration of justice, organized hierarchically depending on the Minister of Justice and supervised under the law "[article 1 of the Organic Law of the Judicial Police, approved by Decree-Law No. 275-A / 2000 of November 9 as amended by Decree-Law No. 235/2005, of 30 December, then in force]."

"Criminal investigation coordinators are criminal police authorities for the purposes of criminal procedural law [article 11 paragraph g) of the same Act]."

"Under the Disciplinary Regulations of the Judicial Police the duty of confidentiality is one of the general duties of members of the Judicial Police [paragraph e) of article 5 of the Regulation approved by Decree-Law No. 196/94, of 21 July]."

"Besides this general duty of confidentiality, the organic law imposes on employees in service at the judicial police a duty of reserve, precisely that "(...) can not make public disclosures related to lawsuits or reserved nature of the subject other than what is provided for herein on public information and preventive actions among the population and also the provisions of the criminal procedure law "[paragraph 2 of article 12]. Still admissible statements "(...) subject to prior authorization by the national director or the national Deputy Directors, on pain of disciplinary proceedings, without prejudice to any criminal liability that may place" [paragraph 3 of article 12]."

"This duty is a common functional requirement on Magistrates and the criminal police. As example, in the case of Prosecutors, the ordinary law postulates that it will remain after retirement, paragraph 7 of article 148 of the Statute that "retired officers are required to the reserve required by their condition."
It is a duty that is essential to the preservation of public confidence in the institutions of administration of justice. The reserve duty protects the purposes of criminal action, but also the physical, moral, freedom and the dignity of the target for the same." 

"Retired criminal investigation officers ... retain special rights, and as holders of an ID card for recognition of its quality and rights enjoyed [paragraphs 1 and and 2 of article 149 of the Organic Law of the Judicial Police and Ordinance No. 96/2002 31 January]."

 The Retirement Statute [approved by Decree-Law 498/72 of 9 December] establishes, from its original wording, the respective artº 74, paragraph 1, "the retired, and holder right to retirement pension, remains bound to the civil service, keeping the titles and the category of the position he held and the rights and duties that do not depend on active employment."

Out of the woods wrote:Amazing that there is so much confidence in Amaral's appeal when no legal basis has been offered for expecting the decision to be overturned, just unsubstantiated arguments that have no foundation in Portuguese law. It's surprising that some posters think they know more about Portuguese legal processes than the judge who considered the situation for months and ultimately made the verdict, backed up by pages and pages of explanation. There is a chance that, upon appeal, Amaral will lose again, be ordered to pay increased compensation plus all additional costs. He could be ruined. Therefore it would be better for him and others to accept the verdict, move on, and set about trying to establish what happened by incorporating any new information not available when the book was published. Donating to a fund without intimate knowledge of the law is rather unwise in my opinion.

That is rubbish.

He has the right to appeal and should avail himself of that opportunity, if only in the amount of damages awarded.

If people wish to assist anyone appealing a case, that is their right.

I may believe that the appeal is unlikely to succeed given the law as it stands, if Amaral wants to appeal it, he should have the right to do so.

I do believe, however, that people would be better informed if they read the actual words of the judgement rather than maintain a false assumption about why the judgement was reached. It is extremely closely argued and flows directly from Portuguese and European law.

It's not rubbish if he comes out of the appeal worse off than he is at the moment. The costs will be huge and certainly not covered by the £20,000 that has been raised by the defence fund. You have stated that in your opinion the judgement was fair, so why should he appeal?

It's a gamble, and a dubious one in my opinion.

Out of the woods wrote:It's not rubbish if he comes out of the appeal worse off than he is at the moment. You have stated that in your opinion the judgement was fair, so why should he appeal?

I believe it was fair and the arguments of the judge have convinced me. I, however, am not an expert, and dominos tat cases are later overturned or amended by higher courts. his is an important right to have - to challenge a lower court's finding in a higher court.

What I do feel is that the judgement should be criticised for what it is- a logical and rigorous consideration of the law, and not, as some would have us believe, merely the caprice of the judge. I feel that people would be much better served if the understood and considered the judge's arguments before suggesting that they are in error.