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SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

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SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Tony Bennett on 26.04.15 21:22

What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

I am opening this new thread to enable people who still think that ‘Smithman’ is Gerry McCann to explain what the evidence for that belief is.    

As far as I can see, it seems to be this:

=====

A bloke and his family were walking home at about 10pm after a meal out and a drink at a pub. It was the very evening that Madeleine was reported missing (3 May).

None of them reported anything until the day after Robert Murat was made a suspect (15 May).

Then one of them, Peter, allegedly ’phoned his father, Martin. As Martin described it in the Daily Mail of 3 January 2008:   “We were home two weeks when my son rang up and asked was he dreaming or did we meet a man carrying a child the night Madeleine was taken. We all remembered that we had the same recollection. I felt we should report it to the police”.

Martin, Peter and Peter’s younger sister Aoife went to Portugal on 26 May and made statements. They said they only saw the man for a few seconds in a dimly-lit dark street, and didn’t see his face very well because he had his head down and the child was covering his face. All said they would never be able to recognise him again if they saw him. Martin said he knew Murat by sight and said he was sure the man wasn’t Murat. Aoife descried the man’s trousers as: “beige in colour, made of cotton and ‘possibly’ with buttons on them”.

There were a significant number of contradictions about why they never reported their sighting earlier, and about what they actually saw.

Four months later, Martin Smith said he saw TV footage of Gerry McCann coming off the plane, on 9 September, carrying Sean on his left shoulder.

Again he waited, this time for 11 days, before reporting this incident. This is what he told an Irish police officer:

“He states he was watching the 10pm news on BBC and saw the McCanns getting off the plane and coming down the steps. He states it was like watching an action replay of the night he saw the male carrying the child back in Portugal. He states the way Gerry was carrying his twin triggered something in his head. It was exactly the same way and look of the male seen the night Maddie went missing. He also watched ITV news and SKY News and inferred it looked like the same person both times carrying the children”.

He later said he was ‘60% to 80% sure’ that the man he saw was Gerry McCann. None of the other 8 members of his family came forward to say that they agreed with him.

He has since changed his mind, wishes the McCanns well, co-operated with them by amending his police statement for their website (changing the age of the man he says he saw from ‘40’ to ’34-35’),  and has urged the public to ‘find the abductor’.

In addition, the former Head of Covert Intelligence at MI5, Henri Exton, drew up two e-fits in spring 2008 which were published by the media on 13 and 14 October 2013. Some people say that one or both of these e-fits looks like Gerry McCann.

=====

Quite simply, my question is: is that it?

Is that the sum total of the evidence which causes some people to think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry?

Or is there more?

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Unlikely tales - exposed by 'chirpyinsect'

Post by Tony Bennett on 27.04.15 23:08

An excellent poinyt has been made by 'chirpyinsect' tonight over in the other place.

S/he wrote:

QUOTE

The only doubts I have about the Smiths are round the nearly 2 weeks it took them to report the sighting.

Now that I have read that he MAY have reported it 2 days later it does make more sense.

However, if he did report it 2 days later then how come his son Peter 'phoned him nearly 2 weeks later to ask if he had been dreaming?

Surely a report put in to the police by MS would have been discussed by Martin with those present on the night even if said information had been disregarded by the police at the time.

UNQUOTE

REPLY: Exactly right. Mimi over in the other place (Woofer when here) understands the issues relating to the Smith sighting better than most, but gets round the very awkward issue of why the Smiths took 13 days to report their sighting by clinging on, as a drowning man clutching a straw, to a report in the Daily Mirror the day after the BBC Crimewatch show in October 2013.

There, tucked away in the article, was a reported claim by Martin Smith that he'd contacted the PJ two days after Madeleine was reported missing, but they had showed no interest.

Now this was plainly balderdash, as he had never once mentioned this remarkable fact in six whole years of making statements to various police forces and the press.

'chirpyinsect' has now neatly laid that false claim in the Mirror to rest by pointing out that this alleged contact with the PJ is utterly inconsistent with the alleged 'Am I only dreaming?' 'phone call from Peter to his Dad.

And even that was a pretty unlikely tale...   

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by plebgate on 28.04.15 8:16

Thanks for info. Tony.   Agree that is a very good point raised by chirpyinsect.

I remember woofer seemed to be very annoyed with you on several occasions when you queried why it took Mr. Smith some time to contact the police.

Will be interesting to hear from you what woofer has to say about chirpyinsects point.   Hoping you will post it here (if there is one of course) as I do not venture over to the other site. 

smilie

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Guest on 28.04.15 9:28

Please clarify: what, where, who is 'the other side'?

One reason I tend to believe the Smiths is the interference of Brian Kennedy: why did he bother when there was nothing in it?

As in: tampering with evidence

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by plebgate on 28.04.15 9:43

The other site is where the Sisterhood hang out - don't know the name, can't be bothered to look it up and post but I have read that it is very similar to this one.

A search of Tony's posts will no doubt give you the answer Portia.

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Tony Bennett on 28.04.15 9:50

@Portia wrote:Please clarify: what, where, who is 'the other side'?

One reason I tend to believe the Smiths...
Do you believe that Martin Smith correctly identified Gerry McCann as the man carrying the little blond child?

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Tony Bennett on 28.04.15 10:13

@plebgate wrote:Thanks for info. Tony.   Agree that is a very good point raised by chirpyinsect...Will be interesting to hear from you what woofer has to say about chirpyinsects point.   Hoping you will post it here (if there is one of course) as I do not venture over to the other site. 
The discussion over in the other place this morning about this thread has been very revealing.

Let's take these three posters first:

Daisy
"Petermac said the Smith sighting is irrelevant so maybe he could post here his reasons why that is,"

Poe
I agree with Petermac on this, the sighting is irrelevant. Whether Smithman was Gerry moving Madeleine or Gerry pretending to be an abductor or an unfortunate father with a passing resemblance to Gerry or created to exonerate Robert Murat makes no difference to the basic facts of the case...

Antonia
I agree Poe. While I believe the Smiths are truthful...I think the man they saw may have been an innocent dad wanting to get his child home on a not too warm night and who does not want to be a media celebrity...

REPLY: I could make many points in reply to the above comments, but there is one 'stand-out' question that all those posters should answer:

WHY, if Smithman is 'irrelevant', did the BBC and Operation Grange between them spend £2 million or more of taxpayers' money, and over 6 months of their time, getting an audience of 6.7 million to belieive in Smithman, why did Redwood pontificate that Smithman was 'the centre of our focus', and why did he invest so much effort in promoting those two strange e-fits of different-looking men and on his creation of 'Crecheman'?  

tigger meanwhile is back to a previous obsession of hers about whether or not Peter Smith had his 'Am I dreaming or something?' moment on Wednesday 16 May, as I have suggested all along. She claims that that date is not absolutely proven. I wonder, then, if she would prefer Martin Smith's statement, which was: 'We were back two weeks'. That would make it Thursday 17 May when he 'phoned the police, not 16 May. Either works for me, I am not sure why she is so worked up about it  

Chirpyinsect wrote:

"Tony, Hope you also saw the picture of the bougainvillea not in flower 1000 miles further south at end of April. Didn't take that over there did you?

REPLY: Quite what that has to do with the price of fish I have no idea

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Four daft reasons for thinking that Smithman is Gerry McCann

Post by Tony Bennett on 06.05.15 11:37

On this thread...

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11240-what-exactly-happened-at-10-00pm-on-thursday-3-may-2007

I challenged those who insist that 'Smithman' was Gerry McCann.

I said that those who support this theory must provide a credible explanation of:

1) why anyone whose child had died hours earlier would carry that dead child through a busy tourist village at all

2) why he would choose the very time when his wife was raising the alarm and the place would soon be crawling with people searching for Madeleine

3) why he wasn’t seen by anyone else except the Smiths, and

4) how he could possibly find a secure hiding place for his dead daughter, hide or bury her body, then return (again unseen by anyone at all) to be involved at Ocean Club reception making arrangements to call the police and to produce photos of Madeleine?

I am informed that the following answer has been given in another place...my replies is blue beneath each point

The four points TB raises about Smithman are easily rebuttable.

Here are possible explanations to his points.

1)The child could have died the day before.

REPLY: This suggestion surely stretches credulity beyond all limits. Is this poster seriously suggesting that Madeleine died the previous day, then Gerry McCann and all the others said: 'Right, let's announce an abduction to everyone at 10.00pm tomortow night, and I, Gerry, will parade Madeleine's body through the streets of Praia da Luz at the very same time? Whoever this poster is doesn't seem to have grasped that by this time a child's body would be still with rigor mortis and the risks of carrying a dead child with rigor mortis through the streets of Praia da Luz would be hugely more risky than if the child had died that evening


2) GM had to get back before 10pm as Diane Webster was in the habit of going home at this time and she would be a perfect alibi.

REPLY: I am at a complete loss. Gerry 'had to get back by 10.00pm...'? But he was, if the Smiths are right, heading towards the beach at around 10.00pm - and still had to find somewhere to hide Madeleine's body. I am replying to nonsense, it seems

3) Having just returned from PDL myself, the route past the primary school towards Kelly's bar would be a quiet road at the busiest of times.

REPLY: We still have to explain why, if the Smiths are right, they were the only ones to see Gerry walking down to the beach with Madeleine, hiding her somewhere, or walking back to the Ocean Club

4) The hiding place was preplanned by GM, as he had 24 hours to do so.

REPLY: This poster presumably believes that Gerry and the others chose to go and hide Madeleine's body in a 'pre-arranged' place, which would involve him in walking right through the streets of Praia da Luz to hide her, with her rigid body in rigor mortis, at the very moment his wife and friends were raising the alarm. It is the most far-fetched theory I have ever seen as to how Smithman could possibly be Gerry McCann

Has TB never heard of Johanna of Unterdenteppichgekerht!

REPLY: Yes, of course. Some months ago, there was an exchange on CMOMM between the two of us about Smithman. Whilst I acknowledged that Johanna has done a great deal of research on the case, I stated that her theory both lacked credible evidence to support it and was indeed contrary to the evidence. She never provided evidence to support her Smithman = Gerry McCann hypothesis.


I turn now to Sonia Poulton's latest posturings, which now come straight to the point:

1 May @ SoniaPoulton


I've faith in #2015 # Year of Transparency. All that is hidden shall be revealed. Wishing all who see this. Lovely w/end. I'm on a mission. X

6 May @ SoniaPoulton


Who was the mysterious 'Smithman'? #mccann
 

And accompanying her latest tweet was this:



Well, it will be truly fascinating to see her documentary (if it ever comes out) and find out what the judgment of Sonia Poulton is on this key issue. Here I think are all the alternatives put forward to explain Smithman:

1. He was the abductor of Madeleine (supported by Operation Grange, the McCann Team, the BBC Crimewatch team, and the powers-that-be)

2. He was probably just an ordinary parent taking his infant home for the night and has just not bothered to tell anyone about it (supported by some on here)

3. He was Gerry McCann (a theory held by many, including Pat Brown and Johanna Renstein)

4. He was a McCann Team decoy (perhaps Russell O'Brien or Matthew Oldfield) - supported by some here

5. He never existed, and was fabricated by the Smiths (Richard D Hall, myself, and by now by quite a few others).


Which one of these will Sonia pick????

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Amy Dean on 06.05.15 11:43

Is it just me? The heading of this topic is showing as "uiote a".

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The title of this thread was 'SMITHMAN 7' - I don't know how it got chnaged

Post by Tony Bennett on 06.05.15 11:50

@Amy Dean wrote:Is it just me? The heading of this topic is showing as "uiote a".
Very strange.

The topic was started by me and clearly read: 'SMITHMAN 7', which was its title before I made my post this morning.

I don't know how it got changed, but maybe Admin will be along in a moment and restore the original title of the thread

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by aiyoyo on 06.05.15 14:31

She keeps dropping hints about contents of HER documentary, also hinting 2015 is going to be year of TRANSPARENCY.

The burning question on everyone's mind is:  Which TV Channel is going to dare to take on such a venture?

The moving goal post debut does make you wonder if this "Untold Story of Madeleine McCann" is ever going to see the light of the day before 2015 is out. Or is it going to sit on the back burner until OG is done and dusted and/or until the Appeal is exhausted, done and dusted.

The longevity of OG's investigation is a complete mystery.
The longevity of SP's investigation of the "untold story" is another complete mystery.

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Angelique on 06.05.15 14:57

@Tony Bennett wrote:
Antonia
I agree Poe. While I believe the Smiths are truthful...I think the man they saw may have been an innocent dad wanting to get his child home on a not too warm night and who does not want to be a media celebrity...

REPLY: I could make many points in reply to the above comments, but there is one 'stand-out' question that all those posters should answer:

WHY, if Smithman is 'irrelevant', did the BBC and Operation Grange between them spend £2 million or more of taxpayers' money, and over 6 months of their time, getting an audience of 6.7 million to belieive in Smithman, why did Redwood pontificate that Smithman was 'the centre of our focus', and why did he invest so much effort in promoting those two strange e-fits of different-looking men and on his creation of 'Crecheman'?  



Tony 

IMO we have a whitewash in progress. 

So DCI Redwood would have been halfway through whitewashing before he decided to retire. So it didn't matter how much he spent he had to come up with an "supposed abductor" to get JT of the hook because of the mess about who she told about her supposed sighting and when. It is possible that at the beginning of this abduction scenario, whoever was in charge of the remit may have decided that because of the JT fiasco they would have to introduce another sighting - enter "Smithman".

Now we have DCI Wall who is going to put the finishing touches to the washing - typical.

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Gaggzy on 06.05.15 15:39

Was Gerry McCann Smithman?


Maybe we are all looking too deeply into this. Whenever this subject arises, I always think back to the Crimewatch debacle programme and the famous photo with Redwood on the left, the e-fit in the background, and Gerry and Kate sat there looking like a pair of rabbits caught in headlights.


The terrified looks on their faces - especially Kate's - to me, were more revealing than anything the Smiths claimed about that night.


Penny for your thoughts, Ms Healy.


As far as the Smiths making police statements goes, I just think it is a huge thing to actually contact the police and make false statements - an offence which could result in a jail sentence.


Would they really have done that?

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Tony Bennett on 06.05.15 17:51

@Gaggzy wrote:Was Gerry McCann Smithman?

Maybe we are all looking too deeply into this. Whenever this subject arises, I always think back to the Crimewatch debacle programme and the famous photo with Redwood on the left, the e-fit in the background, and Gerry and Kate sat there looking like a pair of rabbits caught in headlights. The terrified looks on their faces - especially Kate's - to me, were more revealing than anything the Smiths claimed about that night. Penny for your thoughts, Ms Healy.

REPLY: @ Gaggzy >>>  Sorry, Gaggzy, but IMO you and a few others are making far far too much of this alleged 'terrified look' - and I think it's been proved that the 'terrified look' alongside a photo of one of the two Smithman e-fits was actually photoshopped.

I understand it did not occur like that on the actual broadcast.

In any event frankly neither of the two very different-looking e-fits looks much like Gerry McCann and, anyway, how do we get over the difficulty of any of the Smiths being able to draw up ANY e-fit after (a) not being able to see his face properly (b) in the dark (c) only for a few seconds at the most (d) all saying they'd never be able to remember him again if they saw him and (e) one year or more after the actual event?


As far as the Smiths making police statements goes, I just think it is a huge thing to actually contact the police and make false statements - an offence which could result in a jail sentence. Would they really have done that?

REPLY: So many many people have done just that down the years and centuries - for all sorts of ignoble reasons

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Tony Bennett on 06.05.15 17:53

@Angelique wrote:
Tony 

IMO we have a whitewash in progress. 

So DCI Redwood would have been halfway through whitewashing before he decided to retire. So it didn't matter how much he spent he had to come up with an "supposed abductor" to get JT of the hook because of the mess about who she told about her supposed sighting and when. It is possible that at the beginning of this abduction scenario, whoever was in charge of the remit may have decided that because of the JT fiasco they would have to introduce another sighting - enter "Smithman".

Now we have DCI Wall who is going to put the finishing touches to the washing - typical.
I agree.

A Wall that is doing the whitewashing...




...instead of someone whitewashing a wall.

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Amy Dean on 06.05.15 19:05

I agree that people can lie to the police for all sorts of reasons - look at the McCanns and their friends - but the problem that I have in the case of the Smiths is that there is no known reason for them to do so.

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Tony Bennett on 06.05.15 19:33

@Amy Dean wrote:I agree that people can lie to the police for all sorts of reasons - look at the McCanns and their friends - but the problem that I have in the case of the Smiths is that there is no known reason for them to do so.
@ Amy Dean   And I am in no position to disagree with you.

BUT - we have a case where so much seems to be concealed - where there are secrets and 'pacts of silence' and people have told outright lies.

And one of those who told some of the most blatant lies was Robert Murat, who lied in at least 17 different respects when first interviewed by the PJ.

When re-interviewed by the police in a marathon 2-day session on 10 & 11 July, and confronted wiht his mobile 'phone 'ping' records, he asked the police for 'time out', then came back and confessed to having misled police in 17 material respects about his movements on 1, 2, 3 and 4 May. He claimed he was 'too tired' when first questioned on 15 May to tell the truth.

We know that Martin Smith knows Robert Murat.

So in this case of concealments and secrets, we look for clues.
  
Let's examine a few facts:

1. Martin Smith's recorded statements about his knowledge of Robert Murat have varied considerably. In summary, it started with 'I met him once/twice in a bar' but ended up with 'I'd met him several times and had known him for 2 years' [prior to May 2007]. We now know that Smith had had an apartment in the Estrela da Luz complex for years and went to Praia da Luz several times a year

2. He and his family do NOTHING about their dramatic 'sighting' of a bloke, alone, carrying a blonde girl in pyjamas at 10pm on a cold, dark night - for thirteen days - despite saturation international coverage of the case. Then, within a few hours of Murat being made a suspect, they suddenly 'remember' - and Martin Smith says 'I didn't see him properly but it definitely wasn't Robert Murat'

3. He threatened to sue an Irish newspaper, using a Solicitor to do so, which he said published 'incorrect' information about his relationship with Robert Murat

4. After apparently watching Richard Hall's entire 4.5-hour video, in which there is quite a lot about him and the Madeleine McCann casem and he is incidentally described by Hall as a 'friend' of Murat, he sends an e-mail to Hall, making no comment whatsoever on the rest of the film, but merely points out that it is not correct to describe him as a 'friend' of Murat.

I suggest that all of that tends to suggest a connection with, and a sensitivity to the mention of, Robert Murat.


Then we have the Smiths' contradictory statements about how well Martin Smith knew Robert Murat: here are four statements, which do not agree: 

26 May 2007 - Martin Smith’s statement to the PJ
“He would have recognised Murat ‘instantly’. He had met him in Praia da Luz bars in May and August the previous year…”

8 August 2007 - press report, Drogheda Independent
Peter Smith: “The family are also mystified at reports that he knows Mr Murat. 'They met once in a bar about two years ago. My Dad would only know Mr Murat by sight,' said Mr Smith [Peter]”.

4 January 2008 - SKYNews
An Irish tourist who saw someone carrying a child in a blanket on the night insists that the mystery man was not Robert Murat…Mr Smith told police it was definitely not him because the man wasn't as big as Murat - I think I would have recognised him because I'd met him several times previously…”

10 August 2008 - Irish Mail
“In the statement to Portuguese police on May 26th, the grandfather - who wears glasses but was not wearing them at the night in question - said he would not be able to identify the man he saw. Significantly, though, he was able to tell Police that the man was not Robert Murat, as he had met him on a number of previous occasions”.


Maybe what we have here is a series of little red flags - which make us want to probe a little deeper about the Smith-Murat relationship

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Angelique on 09.05.15 9:16

Amy Dean

I think certain/some people lie all the time, or should I say, slant the truth to fit. In the on-going Investigation it is jammed full of inconsistent statements which, at first, must have baffled the PJ no end. They were able to see through this behaviour even though they were under pressure from the people employed to protect the McCanns, family and friends.The ensuing media was also having the desired effect. IMO it was and still is because of design.

Whoever is in that room where all the strategy is emnating from is the reason why no one twisting the truth and changing the facts are ever brought to account.

Tony
In your reply to Amy Dean.

No. 2

Is it possible the gap between the Smiths' sighting and reporting is to do with the cctv. If the the PJ/GA had got to it in time it would not have shown the supposed Smithman carry a child. So they needed the delay for the tape to be wiped.


This is an edited version of original  comment - original was unclear what I wanted to say.

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Re: SMITHMAN 7: What is the actual evidence that makes people think that ‘Smithman’ was Gerry McCann?

Post by Richard IV on 09.05.15 10:38

Evidence ??

I`m more of a gut feeling guy.

Richard IV

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