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SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Knitted on 21.04.15 15:41

@BlueBag wrote:
@Knitted wrote:That cost will have to be funded by increasing the debt burden of Western countries.
Who the hell are we all in debt to?

... 97.4p of every £1 sterling is actually debt. To put it another way if you go to an ATM and withdraw £100, the government owes £97.40 of that bundle of money in your hand to others, ultimately the very small number of global financial institutions create treasury bonds and loan them at interest to HMG. There are no assets sitting in a bank vault to back the money up.  £97.40 has simply been invented over the decades every time someone takes out a loan, gets a mortgage, or the government pay for any public sector costs.  It's the economic system in place in almost every country on the planet. It's why inflation exists, (inflation is simply the annual increase in invented money and thus the annual debasement of wealth).

As countries moved off of the gold or silver standard currencies became simply an ink entry on a ledger, created out of nothing, (obviously now it's a click of a button). We work, and also suck up the cheaper resources from less developed nations, simply to pay the exponentially growing debt.  UK debt is increasing at £2bn per week. That's simply the net difference between the cheaper goods and services we are sucking up from less developed nations taken from the increasing debt which is the government's interest on all the invented money that's been created.

All you need to do is get 100 people in a room.  Give them three bits of paper. On one they write their savings. On one they write all that they owe, (mortgage, credit cards, loans, etc)...and on the third their share of the UK's  £1,560,000,000,000 (i.e. £1.56 Trillion debt), which is about £60,000 for every person eligible to pay UK tax. Do that and you'll see that savings are significantly less than the amount owed.

Most Western countries have similarly high levels of debt backing up their currency.

What's scary is that some people think banks loan out money from savings and most people think the Bank of England is owned by the government, (it's not, it has private shareholders and by law you are not allowed to know who they are).   The economic scheme deployed across much of the globe is simply a ponzi scheme of epic proportions... nothing more than a scam of smoke and mirrors. It's so simple, it's beautiful... the trouble is that debt burden has to be paid off... and war and resource grabs are two of the most effective ways of offsetting the inevitable collapse for another few years until it's some other politician's problem to sort out!

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by BlueBag on 21.04.15 16:18

@Knitted wrote:What's scary is that some people think banks loan out money from savings and most people think the Bank of England is owned by the government, (it's not, it has private shareholders and by law you are not allowed to know who they are).
Hello Knitted, I am well aware of everything you said.

The Nationalisation of the Bank of England was a sleight of hand.

The real owners hid themselves after the war (clever).

The Government "bought" the BOE from them, but didn't have the money to do it so paid them with shares in the BOE.

I think a lot of people know who really owns the BOE though.

These are the people who are responsible for a lot of what is going on.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by PeterMac on 21.04.15 16:22

Politicians seem to be coming up with

Blockade the ports in Libya and stop the boats coming out - Illegal under international law, and an act of war.
Stop the boats on the high seas - illegal under international law
Do "something" about Libya - we did. We destroyed its entire structure, and replaced it with civil war, which is inevitable on the fall of a repressive dictatorship
Wring hands and criticise what other politicians are suggesting - Miliband has got to this point, but is offering nothing of his own
Lock up one bloke for participating in manslaughter - very helpful.

Meanwhile another couple of boats have overturned . . and the beaches of Crete and Pampedusa are littered with the bodies of small children.


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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by sonic72 on 21.04.15 17:03

The boats are mainly coming from SYRIA, not Libya.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 21.04.15 17:15

Migrant boat tragedy: ‘EU countries can find money for warfare but not to rescue people’
To solve the refugee problem the EU countries, many of which are NATO-members, should criminalize the arms trade and abolish war in Syria and Libya, Jan Oberg from the Transnational Foundation for Peace and Future Research told RT.
RT: The EU has called for an emergency summit over the deaths of illegal immigrants trying to get into Europe. What do you think might come out of that?
Jan Oberg: I really don’t know but it has to lead to some serious self-reflection. EU countries, many of which are NATO countries, always can find money for warfare and they can’t find the money to rescue the people running away from the war zones where the European countries are involved. The refugees who just capsized [on Sunday] are from Syria and Libya, two of the places where we have been engaged all the time. Instead of solving conflicts we have made them worse. So my solution is to criminalize the arms trade and abolish war and you will solve most of the refugee problem. Why? Because behind almost every refugee there is an arms trader.
RT: Other 400 people drowned just a few days ago, yet hundreds more still attempt to cross the Mediterranean, why are they so willing to risk their lives?
JO: Because warfare leads to underdevelopment or mal-development and no hope. And this is not a matter of people, as some journalists say, that they are trying to find a better life like “I’m just going to another place to see whether the wages are better there.” These are people who are running away from hell. People don’t run away from places unless they have very serious reasons to do that. Leaving family, friends, their homes and their nation - all this is something we still don’t seem to understand in Europe. And I also wonder how this would have been covered if this was a luxury cruiser with Europeans and Americans on board. We are woefully inadequate, non-prepared and when militarism goes in, humanism goes out. It’s a very sad moment for Europe.
RT: Italy's Foreign Minister recently called for air strikes in Libya against ISIL positions there. What effect do you think that might have on the flow of people trying to flee the country?
JO: First of all, people who argued with this haven’t understood a word of the last twenty years of warfare around the world. It does not help to bomb or try to kill people - it comes back. It boomerangs both in hatred, terrorism and now in refugee columns. Secondly, we should have learned by now that warfare doesn’t solve any problems, it makes everything worse. You weaponize a conflict because you don’t deal with a conflict early enough. If you deal with a conflict with an early warning and the communities are willing to solve problems instead of trading arms, then we could solve many of these problems way before, with much less economic costs and much less human costs.
Catherine Shakdam from the Beirut Center for Middle East Studies also suggests that people are desperately fleeing from war zones to which EU countries contributed.
“Women, children, and civilians are dying because they are desperately trying to escape economic hardship and war zones. I think Europe in that way has to take responsibility because they have somehow created that chaos.”
“The main problem comes from Libya where Colonel Gaddafi used to subsidize a lot of African countries... And now that he has gone and his regime has completely fallen apart this money is not coming any more to those countries. Therefore, a lot of the social and economic hardship has gotten worse.”
“We can’t keep denying that issue [of migration from North Africa] and saying: ‘We don’t want to deal with it.’ It is the reality that we all need to deal with as a community, not just Western powers, I’m talking [about] everyone- we need to find ways in which civilians need to be protected.”
“We can’t think about the migration in terms of good or bad - it is about taking care of people. We cannot shy away from the fact that this is a human tragedy. And it could come to Europe tomorrow.”

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by PeterMac on 21.04.15 17:16

@sonic72 wrote:The boats are mainly coming from SYRIA, not Libya.
The last few were from Libya.
Some of the people are from Syria, but boats from there would tend towards Crete, Rhodes, Cyprus, rather than Lampedusa and Sicily

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by aquila on 21.04.15 18:04

There are two strands to this humanitarian disaster.

Crisis Management  (firefighting)

Crisis Prevention

In terms of crisis management, something small but immediate will probably come out of the Summit Meeting whereas I have no expectation of any solution with regards to crisis prevention which is the very issue that should have already been addressed. I see Tony Abbott, Australian PM's response is 'don't let them land in your country' which some would consider to be a not in my back yard approach and others would consider to be a very sensible approach to protect Australian resources.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 21.04.15 18:21

@aquila wrote:There are two strands to this humanitarian disaster.

Crisis Management  (firefighting)

Crisis Prevention

In terms of crisis management, something small but immediate will probably come out of the Summit Meeting whereas I have no expectation of any solution with regards to crisis prevention which is the very issue that should have already been addressed. I see Tony Abbott, Australian PM's response is 'don't let them land in your country' which some would consider to be a not in my back yard approach and others would consider to be a very sensible approach to protect Australian resources.
Perhaps Australia should put Abbott on one of the boats and send him to Syria or Libya. Abbott is an idiot and not respected at all in Australia. He is just trying to gain back some popularity seeing as it has plumetted since he became PM.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by aquila on 21.04.15 18:58

@Joss wrote:
@aquila wrote:There are two strands to this humanitarian disaster.

Crisis Management  (firefighting)

Crisis Prevention

In terms of crisis management, something small but immediate will probably come out of the Summit Meeting whereas I have no expectation of any solution with regards to crisis prevention which is the very issue that should have already been addressed. I see Tony Abbott, Australian PM's response is 'don't let them land in your country' which some would consider to be a not in my back yard approach and others would consider to be a very sensible approach to protect Australian resources.
Perhaps Australia should put Abbott on one of the boats and send him to Syria or Libya. Abbott is an idiot and not respected at all in Australia. He is just trying to gain back some popularity seeing as it has plumetted since he became PM.
I could think of a couple of leaders who deserve a place on a boat, George Bush and Tony Blair. The Chilcot report is still not published (see today's BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32390844).

George Bush: 'you're either with us or against us'.

Back to the original topic, PeterMac is right, prosecuting a captain for human trafficking amounts to nothing in the great scheme of things. I'm also of the opinion that governments are capable of human trafficking to suit agendas.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 21.04.15 19:04

@aquila wrote:
@Joss wrote:
@aquila wrote:There are two strands to this humanitarian disaster.

Crisis Management  (firefighting)

Crisis Prevention

In terms of crisis management, something small but immediate will probably come out of the Summit Meeting whereas I have no expectation of any solution with regards to crisis prevention which is the very issue that should have already been addressed. I see Tony Abbott, Australian PM's response is 'don't let them land in your country' which some would consider to be a not in my back yard approach and others would consider to be a very sensible approach to protect Australian resources.
Perhaps Australia should put Abbott on one of the boats and send him to Syria or Libya. Abbott is an idiot and not respected at all in Australia. He is just trying to gain back some popularity seeing as it has plumetted since he became PM.
I could think of a couple of leaders who deserve a place on a boat, George Bush and Tony Blair. The Chilcot report is still not published (see today's BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32390844).

George Bush: 'you're either with us or against us'.

Back to the original topic, PeterMac is right, prosecuting a captain for human trafficking amounts to nothing in the great scheme of things. I'm also of the opinion that governments are capable of human trafficking to suit agendas.
I totally agree. The world is run by a bunch of criminals for the most part.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by aquila on 21.04.15 19:47

@Joss wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@Joss wrote:
@aquila wrote:There are two strands to this humanitarian disaster.

Crisis Management  (firefighting)

Crisis Prevention

In terms of crisis management, something small but immediate will probably come out of the Summit Meeting whereas I have no expectation of any solution with regards to crisis prevention which is the very issue that should have already been addressed. I see Tony Abbott, Australian PM's response is 'don't let them land in your country' which some would consider to be a not in my back yard approach and others would consider to be a very sensible approach to protect Australian resources.
Perhaps Australia should put Abbott on one of the boats and send him to Syria or Libya. Abbott is an idiot and not respected at all in Australia. He is just trying to gain back some popularity seeing as it has plumetted since he became PM.
I could think of a couple of leaders who deserve a place on a boat, George Bush and Tony Blair. The Chilcot report is still not published (see today's BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32390844).

George Bush: 'you're either with us or against us'.

Back to the original topic, PeterMac is right, prosecuting a captain for human trafficking amounts to nothing in the great scheme of things. I'm also of the opinion that governments are capable of human trafficking to suit agendas.
I totally agree. The world is run by a bunch of criminals for the most part.
One only has to look at the 'free Nelson Mandela' push to see how corrupt white governments are.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Casey5 on 21.04.15 20:49

So all solutions that do anything except help the ILLEGAL immigrants to get safely to Europe is illegal.
Unless we want to be swamped with millions - not exaggerated - in this country we will have to go the illegal route.
Otherwise what is to prevent people, mostly young Muslim men it has to be said, from being given a safe haven in say Germany or Romania from deciding to come to the UK anyway. It seems from the ever present  build up at Calais that huge numbers want to do just that. But they don't want to integrate and adopt UK values and dress but in reality want to create the exact society they have left.
I think it's madness to think Europe can take all of Africa and all of the Middle East without submerging their own identities and eventually becoming Muslim states.
I think the Australian stance is the only way forward but I know we won't take it. Has anyone thought how many of these boat people are sleepers, intent on causing damage to any country stupid enough to take them in. I have.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by aquila on 21.04.15 21:09

@Casey5 wrote:So all solutions that do anything except help the ILLEGAL immigrants to get safely to Europe is illegal.
Unless we want to be swamped with millions - not exaggerated - in this country we will have to go the illegal route.
Otherwise what is to prevent people, mostly young Muslim men it has to be said, from being given a safe haven in say Germany or Romania from deciding to come to the UK anyway. It seems from the ever present  build up at Calais that huge numbers want to do just that. But they don't want to integrate and adopt UK values and dress but in reality want to create the exact society they have left.
I think it's madness to think Europe can take all of Africa and all of the Middle East without submerging their own identities and eventually becoming Muslim states.
I think the Australian stance is the only way forward but I know we won't take it. Has anyone thought how many of these boat people are sleepers, intent on causing damage to any country stupid enough to take them in. I have.
Good post.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Hobs on 21.04.15 21:47

The current  blame game of the moment is blame the west for what is going on in the middle east.

yeah right.

What is conveniently being forgotten is that the middle east has been at war with not only everyone else, it has also been at war with itself, village against village, tribe against tribe,  religion against religion (shia versus sunni) for thousands of years.
It isn't going to stop, ever.

What is also being carefully avoided mention of is all those poor  asylum seekers coming from countries who want to kill off all the infidels and enslave those they don't kill, however that thought is not politically correct.

We have all seen what is going on wih daesh,  we have all seen what is going on in various muslim countries.

We have all read how it is the fault of the big bad west.

If it was all the fault of the west and we are the bad guys, why are they killing fellow muslims, blowing up mosques, schools, malls and markets?
Why aren't they targeting western embassies, ex pats and the like?

We have all the do-gooders bleating about letting all the poor asylum seekers in.

OK let's go with that for a minute.

We allow every one in, no checks no nothing, c'mon in the door is open as is our wallet.

Where do we put them?
where will they live?
Where will the children be educated?
Where will they get free medical treatment?
How will they survive?
Who will feed and clothe them?

Will you be a happy lil camper if you can't get a house even though you waited  umpteen years to get social housing because all the housing has gone to immigrants?

Will you be a happy lil camper if your kids can't get the school you want them to have because it is full of immigrant children and if you do get a school place, your child is a minority because they can speak english?
The food is halal and all christian festivals are out the window because it might offend someone?

Will you be a happy lil camper if you have to wait 6 months for an appointment because the surgery is swamped and your operation is cancelled endlessly because it can't cope with the demand of all the immigrants who arrived and there isn't the money to provide even basic health care due to the sheer numbers of patients making demands?

Will you be a happy lil camper when that nice job you had no longer exists, you get made redundant and then workers are hired at a fraction of the salary you were on?

Will you be a happy lil camper when you can't get benefits  because there are too many demands being made and there is no money?

Will you be a happy lil camper when taxes soar because the money to support a massive rise in population without a commensurate rise in income from taxes etc?

Will you be a happy lil camper when your town basically becomes a no go area because of all the immigrants who refuse to integrate into British society and instead  speak their own language, insist on full veil for women and anyone not dressed modestly gets attacked by gangs of men because that is their law? (it is happening already in several towns)

Will you be a happy lil camper when, before you know it, you are in a minority, you have to follow their rules and laws to get anything?

Will you be a happy lil camper when you find out too late that all those nice men from syria who were welcomed with open arms and no background checks decide to blow up hospitals, military bases, parliament, schools, malls etc and then tell you that you either convert or die and then kill you anyway simply because, or, if you are lucky decide to enslave you and then rape and abuse you before passing you around like a pass the parcel?

I bet right now more than a few of you are tutting and calling me rude names, that's fine, I've been called a lot worse than anything you can think of and that's in my day to day job, currently and in the past.

All the media and governments don't want you to question what is going on, they deny it is religious terrorism when even the dumbest can see it is when they slaughter christians because they are christians, they enslave and rape children because they are yazidi.

I see what is happening and it is like nazism all over again except this time it is not just the jews, the homosexuals, the disabled and elderly being targeted, it is every single person who is not a member, follower or supporter of daesh.

How do you deal with people who want you dead simply because you are not of their faith, who will rape you even if you are a child because it says they can in the koran, who don't care about dying in this life if it means they get eternal paradise in the next (BTW if men get 72 female virgins if they die a martyr, do women get 72 male virgins if they die a martyr or in childbirth (the only ways to get guaranteed paradise) do they get 72 female virgins? Do they get 72 virgins of whatever is available?

Hard as it may seem,  every country needs to turn back illegal immigrants as who knows who they could be letting in.
if they want to leave their country so badly because of how it is, they can change their country from the inside ( rather than emigrate and change their host country into a home from home)

As things stand, we are heading  for WW lll , we ignored nazism and we know how that panned out, we believed all the spiel from hitler and his apologists, we do the same at our peril this time round.

This time we aren't fighting people who would rather live than die and will surrender and play nice.
We are dealing people who actively want to die and, if they do surrender, will rapidly come up with interesting ways to kill as many as possible even if it means their own death.

It scares me that people are believing all the hype about them being extremists and radicalised.

If you look at the koran, daesh are doing exactly as it commands, murder, slavery, child rape, the works.

'Moderate muslims' you will note are saying nothing, no protests or demands for it to end, they can't because to do so would be to go against their god.

Remember also that it is ordered that muslims lie to infidels (non muslims) it is allowed for them to be deceitful and do things that would perhaps be frowned up as a openly devout muslim if it means the laws of islam are propagated.

They are forbidden though from lying to other muslims.

Something to ponder.

If for example  daesh succeed, is islam becomes the rule of law and religion (every infidel is either dead, enslaved, converted) it won't end in happy families.

Oh no.

It will one branch of islam against another, until one wins outright and they stand amongst the ruin of the planet (assuming of course that  the various countries haven't decided that we are going to fall and we will be wiped out, lets take the buggers with us and then let rip with every nuclear bomb going)

Think about this if you want  unlimited immigration, open doors for all asylum seekers as it is the right thing to do.

At some point even you will have to say no more.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by sammyc on 21.04.15 22:00

Perfect Hobs  clapping1

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Knitted on 21.04.15 22:41

@Casey5 wrote:Snipped

"...what is to prevent people, mostly young Muslim men it has to be said, from being given a safe haven in say Germany or Romania from deciding to come to the UK anyway. It seems from the ever present  build up at Calais that huge numbers want to do just that. But they don't want to integrate and adopt UK values and dress but in reality want to create the exact society they have left..."
I think that two of the key drivers for many immigrants wanting to come to the UK are (i) They can speak some English, (n.b. It is often considered a good 'common' language to learn and is both taught in schools and also learned from copious pirate Hollywood DVDs!), & (ii) Britain lurks in the context of cultural history in many countries, (just as Italy does for Libyans, and France does for Algiers, etc.). However, when people say "They all want to come to Britain" that's far from the case. All European countries, particularly the (apparently) wealthier ones, are dealing with the same issue.

I suspect that some other European countries are absorbing many more immigrants than the UK, simply due to the logistics of entering the UK. The UK has 20+ miles of sea and only a few main crossing points. As a result bottle-necks develop and these are what we see (such as at the the Calais). For other European countries no such bottlenecks exist and so they are simply absorbing a constant trickle of people, the only difference is that Calais provides UK camera crews with a quick and easy place to visit to film a report. Other countries don't have that 'luxury'.

Most are indeed young Muslim men. I worry lots about the regressive ideology of Islam, (all religions concern me... but at least Judaism and Xianity have moved on over the years!).  Sweden, for example, has absorbed more Muslim % immigration than the UK. It's no coincidence that Sweden, which was in the 1970s one of the most gender equal societies in the world, with one of the lowest rates of rape in Europe is now known as the 'rape capital of Europe'. 1 in 4 Swedish women will now be raped in their lifetime, with around 80% of attackers being identified as Muslim Link .

So, getting back on topic: In an ideal world we would change the economic models deployed across the globe that lead to war and oppression...and while we're at it we must educate the next generation so as they are not indoctrinated by regressive religion/culture.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Knitted on 22.04.15 0:13

@Hobs wrote:The current  blame game of the moment is blame the west for what is going on in the middle east.

yeah right.

What is conveniently being forgotten is that the middle east has been at war with not only everyone else, it has also been at war with itself, village against village, tribe against tribe,  religion against religion (shia versus sunni) for thousands of years.
It isn't going to stop, ever.

What is also being carefully avoided mention of is all those poor  asylum seekers coming from countries who want to kill off all the infidels and enslave those they don't kill, however that thought is not politically correct.

We have all seen what is going on wih daesh,  we have all seen what is going on in various muslim countries.

We have all read how it is the fault of the big bad west.

If it was all the fault of the west and we are the bad guys, why are they killing fellow muslims, blowing up mosques, schools, malls and markets?
Why aren't they targeting western embassies, ex pats and the like?

We have all the do-gooders bleating about letting all the poor asylum seekers in.

OK let's go with that for a minute.

We allow every one in, no checks no nothing, c'mon in the door is open as is our wallet.

Where do we put them?
where will they live?
Where will the children be educated?
Where will they get free medical treatment?
How will they survive?
Who will feed and clothe them?

Will you be a happy lil camper if you can't get a house even though you waited  umpteen years to get social housing because all the housing has gone to immigrants?

Will you be a happy lil camper if your kids can't get the school you want them to have because it is full of immigrant children and if you do get a school place, your child is a minority because they can speak english?
The food is halal and all christian festivals are out the window because it might offend someone?

Will you be a happy lil camper if you have to wait 6 months for an appointment because the surgery is swamped and your operation is cancelled endlessly because it can't cope with the demand of all the immigrants who arrived and there isn't the money to provide even basic health care due to the sheer numbers of patients making demands?

Will you be a happy lil camper when that nice job you had no longer exists, you get made redundant and then workers are hired at a fraction of the salary you were on?

Will you be a happy lil camper when you can't get benefits  because there are too many demands being made and there is no money?

Will you be a happy lil camper when taxes soar because the money to support a massive rise in population without a commensurate rise in income from taxes etc?

Will you be a happy lil camper when your town basically becomes a no go area because of all the immigrants who refuse to integrate into British society and instead  speak their own language, insist on full veil for women and anyone not dressed modestly gets attacked by gangs of men because that is their law? (it is happening already in several towns)

Will you be a happy lil camper when, before you know it, you are in a minority, you have to follow their rules and laws to get anything?

Will you be a happy lil camper when you find out too late that all those nice men from syria who were welcomed with open arms and no background checks decide to blow up hospitals, military bases, parliament, schools, malls etc and then tell you that you either convert or die and then kill you anyway simply because, or, if you are lucky decide to enslave you and then rape and abuse you before passing you around like a pass the parcel?

I bet right now more than a few of you are tutting and calling me rude names, that's fine, I've been called a lot worse than anything you can think of and that's in my day to day job, currently and in the past.

All the media and governments don't want you to question what is going on, they deny it is religious terrorism when even the dumbest can see it is when they slaughter christians because they are christians, they enslave and rape children because they are yazidi.

I see what is happening and it is like nazism all over again except this time it is not just the jews, the homosexuals, the disabled and elderly being targeted, it is every single person who is not a member, follower or supporter of daesh.

How do you deal with people who want you dead simply because you are not of their faith, who will rape you even if you are a child because it says they can in the koran, who don't care about dying in this life if it means they get eternal paradise in the next (BTW if men get 72 female virgins if they die a martyr, do women get 72 male virgins if they die a martyr or in childbirth (the only ways to get guaranteed paradise) do they get 72 female virgins? Do they get 72 virgins of whatever is available?

Hard as it may seem,  every country needs to turn back illegal immigrants as who knows who they could be letting in.
if they want to leave their country so badly because of how it is, they can change their country from the inside ( rather than emigrate and change their host country into a home from home)

As things stand, we are heading  for WW lll , we ignored nazism and we know how that panned out, we believed all the spiel from hitler and his apologists, we do the same at our peril this time round.

This time we aren't fighting people who would rather live than die and will surrender and play nice.
We are dealing people who actively want to die and, if they do surrender, will rapidly come up with interesting ways to kill as many as possible even if it means their own death.

It scares me that people are believing all the hype about them being extremists and radicalised.

If you look at the koran, daesh are doing exactly as it commands, murder, slavery, child rape, the works.

'Moderate muslims' you will note are saying nothing, no protests or demands for it to end, they can't because to do so would be to go against their god.

Remember also that it is ordered that muslims lie to infidels (non muslims) it is allowed for them to be deceitful and do things that would perhaps be frowned up as a openly devout muslim if it means the laws of islam are propagated.

They are forbidden though from lying to other muslims.

Something to ponder.

If for example  daesh succeed, is islam becomes the rule of law and religion (every infidel is either dead, enslaved, converted) it won't end in happy families.

Oh no.

It will one branch of islam against another, until one wins outright and they stand amongst the ruin of the planet (assuming of course that  the various countries haven't decided that we are going to fall and we will be wiped out, lets take the buggers with us and then let rip with every nuclear bomb going)

Think about this if you want  unlimited immigration, open doors for all asylum seekers as it is the right thing to do.

At some point even you will have to say no more.
@ Hobs

I haven't seen anyone saying the West is bad and Islam is OK. Nor denying the fact that most of the turmoil and atrocities are 'Muslim on Muslim'. As you say, the M.E. has a long history of tribal and religious conflict.

The point, however, is that we didn't see mass emigration from these areas 100yrs ago, nor 50yrs ago, nor 25yrs ago. The point is that we are only seeing mass emigration now due to the significant escalation in conflict in the region and the massive destabiliaation. These are areas in which the West has either been heavily embroiled in, or are the (as you say) tribal or religious repercussions of those interventions, i.e. The West lit the touchpaper in the region. 

No one is saying the West is 'bad'... (though with all the corruption and child abuse and rapidly increasing divide between rich and poor some might disagree!).  I despise most of the ideology of Islam, (though its fundamental economic ideals are, in my view, much better than what we now have in the West).  What's arguably wrong with the West is the use of a Fiat currency combined with a fractional reserve banking system. To thrive when growth is slack two things are needed: (i) Cheap resources (thus whatever it takes to get them from 'poor' countries), & (ii) Big public expenditure (thus military/war... for example the US alone spends 39% of all global military expenditure... and the little old UK is the 4th biggest military spender), (...and being glib the 3rd thing is a Citizenry that don't know how the scam works!).  That's why the West is 'guilty' for what's going on in the M.E. at the moment... it's simply what our economic system has sown to remain solvent.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by lj on 22.04.15 1:22

@Hobs wrote:The current  blame game of the moment is blame the west for what is going on in the middle east.

yeah right.

What is conveniently being forgotten is that the middle east has been at war with not only everyone else, it has also been at war with itself, village against village, tribe against tribe,  religion against religion (shia versus sunni) for thousands of years.
It isn't going to stop, ever.

What is also being carefully avoided mention of is all those poor  asylum seekers coming from countries who want to kill off all the infidels and enslave those they don't kill, however that thought is not politically correct.

We have all seen what is going on wih daesh,  we have all seen what is going on in various muslim countries.

We have all read how it is the fault of the big bad west.

If it was all the fault of the west and we are the bad guys, why are they killing fellow muslims, blowing up mosques, schools, malls and markets?
Why aren't they targeting western embassies, ex pats and the like?

We have all the do-gooders bleating about letting all the poor asylum seekers in.

OK let's go with that for a minute.

We allow every one in, no checks no nothing, c'mon in the door is open as is our wallet.

Where do we put them?
where will they live?
Where will the children be educated?
Where will they get free medical treatment?
How will they survive?
Who will feed and clothe them?

Will you be a happy lil camper if you can't get a house even though you waited  umpteen years to get social housing because all the housing has gone to immigrants?

Will you be a happy lil camper if your kids can't get the school you want them to have because it is full of immigrant children and if you do get a school place, your child is a minority because they can speak english?
The food is halal and all christian festivals are out the window because it might offend someone?

Will you be a happy lil camper if you have to wait 6 months for an appointment because the surgery is swamped and your operation is cancelled endlessly because it can't cope with the demand of all the immigrants who arrived and there isn't the money to provide even basic health care due to the sheer numbers of patients making demands?

Will you be a happy lil camper when that nice job you had no longer exists, you get made redundant and then workers are hired at a fraction of the salary you were on?

Will you be a happy lil camper when you can't get benefits  because there are too many demands being made and there is no money?

Will you be a happy lil camper when taxes soar because the money to support a massive rise in population without a commensurate rise in income from taxes etc?

Will you be a happy lil camper when your town basically becomes a no go area because of all the immigrants who refuse to integrate into British society and instead  speak their own language, insist on full veil for women and anyone not dressed modestly gets attacked by gangs of men because that is their law? (it is happening already in several towns)

Will you be a happy lil camper when, before you know it, you are in a minority, you have to follow their rules and laws to get anything?

Will you be a happy lil camper when you find out too late that all those nice men from syria who were welcomed with open arms and no background checks decide to blow up hospitals, military bases, parliament, schools, malls etc and then tell you that you either convert or die and then kill you anyway simply because, or, if you are lucky decide to enslave you and then rape and abuse you before passing you around like a pass the parcel?

I bet right now more than a few of you are tutting and calling me rude names, that's fine, I've been called a lot worse than anything you can think of and that's in my day to day job, currently and in the past.

All the media and governments don't want you to question what is going on, they deny it is religious terrorism when even the dumbest can see it is when they slaughter christians because they are christians, they enslave and rape children because they are yazidi.

I see what is happening and it is like nazism all over again except this time it is not just the jews, the homosexuals, the disabled and elderly being targeted, it is every single person who is not a member, follower or supporter of daesh.

How do you deal with people who want you dead simply because you are not of their faith, who will rape you even if you are a child because it says they can in the koran, who don't care about dying in this life if it means they get eternal paradise in the next (BTW if men get 72 female virgins if they die a martyr, do women get 72 male virgins if they die a martyr or in childbirth (the only ways to get guaranteed paradise) do they get 72 female virgins? Do they get 72 virgins of whatever is available?

Hard as it may seem,  every country needs to turn back illegal immigrants as who knows who they could be letting in.
if they want to leave their country so badly because of how it is, they can change their country from the inside ( rather than emigrate and change their host country into a home from home)

As things stand, we are heading  for WW lll , we ignored nazism and we know how that panned out, we believed all the spiel from hitler and his apologists, we do the same at our peril this time round.

This time we aren't fighting people who would rather live than die and will surrender and play nice.
We are dealing people who actively want to die and, if they do surrender, will rapidly come up with interesting ways to kill as many as possible even if it means their own death.

It scares me that people are believing all the hype about them being extremists and radicalised.

If you look at the koran, daesh are doing exactly as it commands, murder, slavery, child rape, the works.

'Moderate muslims' you will note are saying nothing, no protests or demands for it to end, they can't because to do so would be to go against their god.

Remember also that it is ordered that muslims lie to infidels (non muslims) it is allowed for them to be deceitful and do things that would perhaps be frowned up as a openly devout muslim if it means the laws of islam are propagated.

They are forbidden though from lying to other muslims.

Something to ponder.

If for example  daesh succeed, is islam becomes the rule of law and religion (every infidel is either dead, enslaved, converted) it won't end in happy families.

Oh no.

It will one branch of islam against another, until one wins outright and they stand amongst the ruin of the planet (assuming of course that  the various countries haven't decided that we are going to fall and we will be wiped out, lets take the buggers with us and then let rip with every nuclear bomb going)

Think about this if you want  unlimited immigration, open doors for all asylum seekers as it is the right thing to do.

At some point even you will have to say no more.
Great post Hobs

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 22.04.15 5:31

@Hobs wrote:The current  blame game of the moment is blame the west for what is going on in the middle east.

yeah right.

What is conveniently being forgotten is that the middle east has been at war with not only everyone else, it has also been at war with itself, village against village, tribe against tribe,  religion against religion (shia versus sunni) for thousands of years.
It isn't going to stop, ever.

What is also being carefully avoided mention of is all those poor  asylum seekers coming from countries who want to kill off all the infidels and enslave those they don't kill, however that thought is not politically correct.

We have all seen what is going on wih daesh,  we have all seen what is going on in various muslim countries.

We have all read how it is the fault of the big bad west.

If it was all the fault of the west and we are the bad guys, why are they killing fellow muslims, blowing up mosques, schools, malls and markets?
Why aren't they targeting western embassies, ex pats and the like?

We have all the do-gooders bleating about letting all the poor asylum seekers in.

OK let's go with that for a minute.

We allow every one in, no checks no nothing, c'mon in the door is open as is our wallet.

Where do we put them?
where will they live?
Where will the children be educated?
Where will they get free medical treatment?
How will they survive?
Who will feed and clothe them?

Will you be a happy lil camper if you can't get a house even though you waited  umpteen years to get social housing because all the housing has gone to immigrants?

Will you be a happy lil camper if your kids can't get the school you want them to have because it is full of immigrant children and if you do get a school place, your child is a minority because they can speak english?
The food is halal and all christian festivals are out the window because it might offend someone?

Will you be a happy lil camper if you have to wait 6 months for an appointment because the surgery is swamped and your operation is cancelled endlessly because it can't cope with the demand of all the immigrants who arrived and there isn't the money to provide even basic health care due to the sheer numbers of patients making demands?

Will you be a happy lil camper when that nice job you had no longer exists, you get made redundant and then workers are hired at a fraction of the salary you were on?

Will you be a happy lil camper when you can't get benefits  because there are too many demands being made and there is no money?

Will you be a happy lil camper when taxes soar because the money to support a massive rise in population without a commensurate rise in income from taxes etc?

Will you be a happy lil camper when your town basically becomes a no go area because of all the immigrants who refuse to integrate into British society and instead  speak their own language, insist on full veil for women and anyone not dressed modestly gets attacked by gangs of men because that is their law? (it is happening already in several towns)

Will you be a happy lil camper when, before you know it, you are in a minority, you have to follow their rules and laws to get anything?

Will you be a happy lil camper when you find out too late that all those nice men from syria who were welcomed with open arms and no background checks decide to blow up hospitals, military bases, parliament, schools, malls etc and then tell you that you either convert or die and then kill you anyway simply because, or, if you are lucky decide to enslave you and then rape and abuse you before passing you around like a pass the parcel?

I bet right now more than a few of you are tutting and calling me rude names, that's fine, I've been called a lot worse than anything you can think of and that's in my day to day job, currently and in the past.

All the media and governments don't want you to question what is going on, they deny it is religious terrorism when even the dumbest can see it is when they slaughter christians because they are christians, they enslave and rape children because they are yazidi.

I see what is happening and it is like nazism all over again except this time it is not just the jews, the homosexuals, the disabled and elderly being targeted, it is every single person who is not a member, follower or supporter of daesh.

How do you deal with people who want you dead simply because you are not of their faith, who will rape you even if you are a child because it says they can in the koran, who don't care about dying in this life if it means they get eternal paradise in the next (BTW if men get 72 female virgins if they die a martyr, do women get 72 male virgins if they die a martyr or in childbirth (the only ways to get guaranteed paradise) do they get 72 female virgins? Do they get 72 virgins of whatever is available?

Hard as it may seem,  every country needs to turn back illegal immigrants as who knows who they could be letting in.
if they want to leave their country so badly because of how it is, they can change their country from the inside ( rather than emigrate and change their host country into a home from home)

As things stand, we are heading  for WW lll , we ignored nazism and we know how that panned out, we believed all the spiel from hitler and his apologists, we do the same at our peril this time round.

This time we aren't fighting people who would rather live than die and will surrender and play nice.
We are dealing people who actively want to die and, if they do surrender, will rapidly come up with interesting ways to kill as many as possible even if it means their own death.

It scares me that people are believing all the hype about them being extremists and radicalised.

If you look at the koran, daesh are doing exactly as it commands, murder, slavery, child rape, the works.

'Moderate muslims' you will note are saying nothing, no protests or demands for it to end, they can't because to do so would be to go against their god.

Remember also that it is ordered that muslims lie to infidels (non muslims) it is allowed for them to be deceitful and do things that would perhaps be frowned up as a openly devout muslim if it means the laws of islam are propagated.

They are forbidden though from lying to other muslims.

Something to ponder.

If for example  daesh succeed, is islam becomes the rule of law and religion (every infidel is either dead, enslaved, converted) it won't end in happy families.

Oh no.

It will one branch of islam against another, until one wins outright and they stand amongst the ruin of the planet (assuming of course that  the various countries haven't decided that we are going to fall and we will be wiped out, lets take the buggers with us and then let rip with every nuclear bomb going)

Think about this if you want  unlimited immigration, open doors for all asylum seekers as it is the right thing to do.

At some point even you will have to say no more.

So how do the citizens of a country that take on board the refugees deal with the huge problem they deem it to be? If as i read the fears of some of the people posting here about the impact they feel it will have on their society, what are they doing about it, and what can they do about it? Can you take your concerns to your local representatives who can then take those concerns up with the Government? In other words what are people doing about it, or are they quite happy just taking a "wait & see" approach to the problems they envisage about certain races of people living in their country?

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 22.04.15 5:49

The problem as i see it is that the religious wars that have been going on endlessly in the ME or wherever are to do with their religions. But the problems that are going on now are our interference in those countries, and the West's interference has nothing to do with the religious wars. Why don't the westernised countries stop running interference over there and get themselves out of there? Why are we also now involved in endless wars as well? Does War=Peace? Of course it doesn't, so if we want peace why do we encourage our young  people to join the military and get involved? Its not because our countries are being invaded by those people. I believe we have the right to protect our own country, as does anyone in any country. And i also believe all those refugees that are affected by the hell they have to live through on a daily basis would much prefer to stay exactly where they are and live in peace if given the choice, instead of fleeing for their lives. Lets hope we don't experience the same thing in our own backyard eventually. I agree with articles i have read, it is a human tragedy of epic proportion that we really have no clue about as we sit in our comfortable homes in relative safety.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Casey5 on 22.04.15 21:38

@Joss wrote:I believe we have the right to protect our own country, as does anyone in any country. And i also believe all those refugees that are affected by the hell they have to live through on a daily basis would much prefer to stay exactly where they are and live in peace if given the choice, instead of fleeing for their lives. Lets hope we don't experience the same thing in our own backyard eventually. I agree with articles i have read, it is a human tragedy of epic proportion that we really have no clue about as we sit in our comfortable homes in relative safety.

For those of us who remember what it was like during and after the second world war we remember that we fought to keep our country safe from Hitler, we accepted hardships, death, food shortages and were willing to stand in the streets and fight if Hitler had penetrated our shores.
What we didn't do was leave the country en masse for safe havens overseas. Our young people were willing to fight for freedom.
The boat people, the ones with money,  are just leaving their country and people to whatever fate awaits.
Can you imagine having to rely on such people in the event of a third world war? You wouldn't know if the enemy was in front of you or alongside of you.
These people should be willing to stay in their own country and fight for what they believe in, just like we did

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Mo on 22.04.15 21:59

Casey5 what you have written is very thought provoking!  Perhaps you should send this to the press.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Knitted on 23.04.15 1:00

@Casey5 wrote:
@Joss wrote:I believe we have the right to protect our own country, as does anyone in any country. And i also believe all those refugees that are affected by the hell they have to live through on a daily basis would much prefer to stay exactly where they are and live in peace if given the choice, instead of fleeing for their lives. Lets hope we don't experience the same thing in our own backyard eventually. I agree with articles i have read, it is a human tragedy of epic proportion that we really have no clue about as we sit in our comfortable homes in relative safety.

For those of us who remember what it was like during and after the second world war we remember that we fought to keep our country safe from Hitler, we accepted hardships, death, food shortages and were willing to stand in the streets and fight if Hitler had penetrated our shores.
What we didn't do was leave the country en masse for safe havens overseas. Our young people were willing to fight for freedom.
The boat people, the ones with money,  are just leaving their country and people to whatever fate awaits.
Can you imagine having to rely on such people in the event of a third world war? You wouldn't know if the enemy was in front of you or alongside of you.
These people should be willing to stay in their own country and fight for what they believe in, just like we did
There are differences to consider when comparing the UK in WW2 with those groups of people affected in North Africa and the Middle East:

- UK civilian casualties in WW2 were less than 1%. Almost all were caused by aerial bombardment. The infrastructure was in place to ensure enough food to eat (indeed, the diet, though now would be considered dull and basic was arguably a healthier one than current eaten in the UK). The UK did move vulnerable people away from danger zones, i.e. evacuees, and that included 24,000 children sent overseas. If your house was bombed out you could move to a family member's house, or a friend's house, or the government infrastructure was in place to arrange emergency housing. The enemy's soldiers were separated from the nearest mainland home by 21miles of sea and were not in a position to kick in a front doorway or shoot you as you walked down the street, (indeed, the example of the Channel Isles showed that a Nazi invasion of British territory was quite a gentle affair.. if you ignore the British Bobbies rounding up the three 'foreign Jews' on Guernsey and handing them over to the Gestapo for sending off to Auschwitz where they died). For a brief period (summer of '40) there was a threat of invasion but from mid September onwards the threat subsided for the winter. From the summer of '41, once Operation Barbarossa commenced, the threat of Axis ground troops ever invading UK shores disappeared. So, in summary: the Government retained control of the infrastructure and ensured no one starved.  There was a clear and distinct enemy whose foot-soldiers were kept away from UK mainland homes by the Channel. 

- In N. Africa and the M.E. civilian casualty rates are generally running at slightly higher rates than the UK experienced, (albeit slightly less than what was suffered during the main Luftwaffe bomber offensive). However, there the similarity ends. The enemy is on the ground able to get to you on foot or by road as there's no 20miles of Channel to protect you. That enemy is driven by religious zeal and tribal divisions and they want to kill you, (they are not, unlike the Wermacht in WW2, there because they are taking orders from their military leadership and once the battles and fighting die down are happy to chat up the local girls, get drunk, sightsee and then idly hope for the war to end and to get back home). The enemy has likely never heard of the Geneva Convention, let alone feel they ought to try and comply with it. Whole communities have lost their homes and their livelihoods. The sense of leadership (government or local community) that might otherwise have given them hope will have gone... Just imagine the despair. The soul destroying despair.  You can't move in with a family member, or a friend, or look to the government to look after you as we could have done in WW2... because they've all gone when the enemy arrived. So, you have whole groups of people, whole neighbourhoods and whole villages all having to move at once.  Food, and electricity, are often hard to come by. What can you do? Stay put and likely be slaughtered or be so terrorised and fearful every day that life is barely worth living... or try and survive?

Hopefully the above gives a different perspective to the view that the plight of Britons in WW2 can be compared to the plight of people in the M.E. / N. Africa.  Britons may have been willing to stand in the streets and fight their ground, but actually doing so would have been an entirely different matter. The Government estimated at the time that if Operation Sealion (German invasion of Britain, planned for mid Sept 1940) had been successful, then Britain would have fully collapsed and surrendered within 3 weeks, (a similar timescale to the fall of France)... and the fighting in affected areas of the M.E. and N. Africa has been going on for far longer than that.  History demonstrates that normal people invariably tend to run for their lives if/when an enemy looks to be getting the upper hand. Strong leadership can indeed sometimes stop a civilian rout, but in N/Africa and the M.E. that leadership is not always there, (n.b. For a start, the strong sense of a "national identity" in the way you and I understand it, with borders defining 'us' and 'them' often doesn't exist in the affected areas... tribal and religious bonds are what matter, not a line, literally, in the sand)

All things being equal, and if the boot was on the other foot, then Britons too would have been clambering onto boats to escape survive 70yrs ago... just as the people in N.Africa and the M.E. would presumably much prefer to have their enemies on the other side of a 20mile sea and just put up with aerial bombing as we did.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 23.04.15 5:35

@Casey5 wrote:
@Joss wrote:I believe we have the right to protect our own country, as does anyone in any country. And i also believe all those refugees that are affected by the hell they have to live through on a daily basis would much prefer to stay exactly where they are and live in peace if given the choice, instead of fleeing for their lives. Lets hope we don't experience the same thing in our own backyard eventually. I agree with articles i have read, it is a human tragedy of epic proportion that we really have no clue about as we sit in our comfortable homes in relative safety.

For those of us who remember what it was like during and after the second world war we remember that we fought to keep our country safe from Hitler, we accepted hardships, death, food shortages and were willing to stand in the streets and fight if Hitler had penetrated our shores.
What we didn't do was leave the country en masse for safe havens overseas. Our young people were willing to fight for freedom.
The boat people, the ones with money,  are just leaving their country and people to whatever fate awaits.
Can you imagine having to rely on such people in the event of a third world war? You wouldn't know if the enemy was in front of you or alongside of you.
These people should be willing to stay in their own country and fight for what they believe in, just like we did
What would you like them to fight back with? Sticks & stones? Like they did in Gaza from their outdoor prison where someone compared the deaths in Gaza from Israel to "shooting fish in a barrel". Fighting back is not even an option for them when the drones etc. are flying overhead bombing them back to the stone age.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 23.04.15 5:36

@Knitted wrote:
@Casey5 wrote:
@Joss wrote:I believe we have the right to protect our own country, as does anyone in any country. And i also believe all those refugees that are affected by the hell they have to live through on a daily basis would much prefer to stay exactly where they are and live in peace if given the choice, instead of fleeing for their lives. Lets hope we don't experience the same thing in our own backyard eventually. I agree with articles i have read, it is a human tragedy of epic proportion that we really have no clue about as we sit in our comfortable homes in relative safety.

For those of us who remember what it was like during and after the second world war we remember that we fought to keep our country safe from Hitler, we accepted hardships, death, food shortages and were willing to stand in the streets and fight if Hitler had penetrated our shores.
What we didn't do was leave the country en masse for safe havens overseas. Our young people were willing to fight for freedom.
The boat people, the ones with money,  are just leaving their country and people to whatever fate awaits.
Can you imagine having to rely on such people in the event of a third world war? You wouldn't know if the enemy was in front of you or alongside of you.
These people should be willing to stay in their own country and fight for what they believe in, just like we did
There are differences to consider when comparing the UK in WW2 with those groups of people affected in North Africa and the Middle East:

- UK civilian casualties in WW2 were less than 1%. Almost all were caused by aerial bombardment. The infrastructure was in place to ensure enough food to eat (indeed, the diet, though now would be considered dull and basic was arguably a healthier one than current eaten in the UK). The UK did move vulnerable people away from danger zones, i.e. evacuees, and that included 24,000 children sent overseas. If your house was bombed out you could move to a family member's house, or a friend's house, or the government infrastructure was in place to arrange emergency housing. The enemy's soldiers were separated from the nearest mainland home by 21miles of sea and were not in a position to kick in a front doorway or shoot you as you walked down the street, (indeed, the example of the Channel Isles showed that a Nazi invasion of British territory was quite a gentle affair.. if you ignore the British Bobbies rounding up the three 'foreign Jews' on Guernsey and handing them over to the Gestapo for sending off to Auschwitz where they died). For a brief period (summer of '40) there was a threat of invasion but from mid September onwards the threat subsided for the winter. From the summer of '41, once Operation Barbarossa commenced, the threat of Axis ground troops ever invading UK shores disappeared. So, in summary: the Government retained control of the infrastructure and ensured no one starved.  There was a clear and distinct enemy whose foot-soldiers were kept away from UK mainland homes by the Channel. 

- In N. Africa and the M.E. civilian casualty rates are generally running at slightly higher rates than the UK experienced, (albeit slightly less than what was suffered during the main Luftwaffe bomber offensive). However, there the similarity ends. The enemy is on the ground able to get to you on foot or by road as there's no 20miles of Channel to protect you. That enemy is driven by religious zeal and tribal divisions and they want to kill you, (they are not, unlike the Wermacht in WW2, there because they are taking orders from their military leadership and once the battles and fighting die down are happy to chat up the local girls, get drunk, sightsee and then idly hope for the war to end and to get back home). The enemy has likely never heard of the Geneva Convention, let alone feel they ought to try and comply with it. Whole communities have lost their homes and their livelihoods. The sense of leadership (government or local community) that might otherwise have given them hope will have gone... Just imagine the despair. The soul destroying despair.  You can't move in with a family member, or a friend, or look to the government to look after you as we could have done in WW2... because they've all gone when the enemy arrived. So, you have whole groups of people, whole neighbourhoods and whole villages all having to move at once.  Food, and electricity, are often hard to come by. What can you do? Stay put and likely be slaughtered or be so terrorised and fearful every day that life is barely worth living... or try and survive?

Hopefully the above gives a different perspective to the view that the plight of Britons in WW2 can be compared to the plight of people in the M.E. / N. Africa.  Britons may have been willing to stand in the streets and fight their ground, but actually doing so would have been an entirely different matter. The Government estimated at the time that if Operation Sealion (German invasion of Britain, planned for mid Sept 1940) had been successful, then Britain would have fully collapsed and surrendered within 3 weeks, (a similar timescale to the fall of France)... and the fighting in affected areas of the M.E. and N. Africa has been going on for far longer than that.  History demonstrates that normal people invariably tend to run for their lives if/when an enemy looks to be getting the upper hand. Strong leadership can indeed sometimes stop a civilian rout, but in N/Africa and the M.E. that leadership is not always there, (n.b. For a start, the strong sense of a "national identity" in the way you and I understand it, with borders defining 'us' and 'them' often doesn't exist in the affected areas... tribal and religious bonds are what matter, not a line, literally, in the sand)

All things being equal, and if the boot was on the other foot, then Britons too would have been clambering onto boats to escape survive 70yrs ago... just as the people in N.Africa and the M.E. would presumably much prefer to have their enemies on the other side of a 20mile sea and just put up with aerial bombing as we did.
Exactly.

Joss

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