The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hi!

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.


Jill Havern
Forum owner

My Theory

Page 4 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

My Theory

Post by G-Unit on 11.04.15 12:57

Ladyinred wrote:Yes, G-Unit, we're all entitled to an opinion and to voice them, within the rules, on this forum.  I've not denied anyone their opinion and am always interested to read new theories.  So I don't understand why you've linked my post above with yours.

I'm pointing out that calpol is an analgesic not a sedative.
Sorry, Ladyinred, I was answering two questions at once, replying to spaniel's point and yours. No intention to upset you.

G-Unit

Posts : 312
Reputation : 54
Join date : 2014-12-29
Location : UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by Guest on 11.04.15 13:11

Abductor in the same room as the grieving parents, playing along

Now, thats a bold statement!

Let's check the available lists of people who were there, with the parents, contaminating the room

A.S.A.P.

Would be awkward if these contaminators turned out to be the well known Tapas, wouldn't it?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by Guest on 11.04.15 13:16

No probs and thanks, G-Unit.

I wonder why cyaneyed believes the parents had no involvement with their child's disappearance? I have a problem accepting this.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

My Theory

Post by G-Unit on 11.04.15 13:19

Where are you cyaneyed? Lots of questions for you to answer here!

G-Unit

Posts : 312
Reputation : 54
Join date : 2014-12-29
Location : UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by Guest on 11.04.15 13:22

@G-Unit wrote:Where are you cyaneyed? Lots of questions for you to answer here!
Yes, he/she was on-line earlier today when I expected a response to several posts.  Mmm...

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by jeanmonroe on 11.04.15 15:39

I'm getting 'worried'

Has anyone 'seen' my new 'debating' friend, cyaneyed?

Probably what i mean is, i ask the 'questions' and cyaneyed does de 'baiting'!

jeanmonroe

Posts : 5162
Reputation : 914
Join date : 2013-02-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by lj on 11.04.15 23:30

@G-Unit wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:
@cyaneyed wrote:Indeed. Before this case I had never heard of it either. I think it is reported as causing drowsiness because it's supposed to be given to children with fevers, it alleviates the symptoms, allows the body to relax a little, and naturally there is drowsiness. In other words, its not a direct effect of the Calpol, but of what Calpol alleviated. On a healthy child, there is no reason Calpol would cause drowsiness (from a little reading, I've discovered it's also bad for the liver if taken regularly).
Where is it reported that calpol causes drowsiness?   

Paracetamol does not cause drowsiness.
Firstly, I agree with cockerspaniel. We're all entitled to an opinion even if it's not seen as supportable. I prefer to give someone the benefit of the doubt rather than see them go to another site where they're ideas will be welcomed and not critically analysed. 

I'm not saying anyone did anything, but the only medicine I have seen referred to which might fit the 'sedating' possibility is Terfenadine. Antihistamines have been used for sedation of children as well as of the terminally ill in the past;

When they travelled on holiday to Portugal they brought several medicines, namely Calpol, Nurofen, for fevers and pains, both for adults and children, Losec for gastric problems that he occasionally suffers from, and an anti-histamine called Terfenadine for hay fever. He did not give any of these medicines or any others to the children while on holiday in Portugal.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm


In the very early days, and I am talking 1 maybe 2 days after Madeleine went missing, Ma Healy was on television stating that Madeleine was sometimes given valium for her sleep problems. Several very reliable posters of one of those boards long gone had all seen and heard that, including me. Of course it was wooshed and ma Healy was since given hymn sheets and a stern warning. 
There is the video where Gerry on the question if he sedated the kids or gave them calpol shows about every body language sign of deception. Pulling nose, ears, giggling etc. Sorry I'm very bad in searching but it is here somewhere and other wise on the McCannfiles too.

If, as I suspect, sedation played a role and was the reason for hiding the body, you won't find the medicine that was used. That went down the sewer or hiding with one of the friends.

____________________
"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

lj

Posts : 3280
Reputation : 153
Join date : 2009-12-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by Okeydokey on 12.04.15 2:02

@jeanmonroe wrote:I'm getting 'worried'

Has anyone 'seen' my new 'debating' friend, cyaneyed?

Probably what i mean is, i ask the 'questions' and cyaneyed does de 'baiting'!

Yep...know what you mean. I checked in yesterday and did wonder about this thread.

I thought it might have been a "harvesting" operation...just harvesting comments unsupported by evidence that can be used to advantage by "someone".

Okeydokey

Posts : 919
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2013-10-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by Guest on 12.04.15 8:07

Funny how, after all these years in it together, we always smell something fishy, immediately

If nothing else, time has brought us that

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by BlueBag on 12.04.15 8:32

There is no such thing as a "new member" coming up with verbose and detailed posts after all this time. 

I think cyaneyed was either yanking our chains for a laugh (but perhaps there was too much effort for that) or worse fishing.

If fishing then there are loads of things in this forum anyway... a lot of it planted by the fishermen (do fishermen plant?)

BlueBag

Posts : 3549
Reputation : 1336
Join date : 2014-06-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

My Theory

Post by G-Unit on 12.04.15 9:07

@BlueBag wrote:There is no such thing as a "new member" coming up with verbose and detailed posts after all this time. 

I think cyaneyed was either yanking our chains for a laugh (but perhaps there was too much effort for that) or worse fishing.

If fishing then there are loads of things in this forum anyway... a lot of it planted by the fishermen (do fishermen plant?)
Yes. Quite a lot of effort, a video too. Maybe he's just taken it somewhere less critical.

G-Unit

Posts : 312
Reputation : 54
Join date : 2014-12-29
Location : UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by Amy Dean on 12.04.15 9:13

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5jtmkXXv58

LJ, this is the clip about sedatives.

Amy Dean

Posts : 260
Reputation : 71
Join date : 2014-11-13
Age : 45
Location : Wherever I hang my hat

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by PeterMac on 12.04.15 10:05

Ladyinred wrote:
@G-Unit wrote:Where are you cyaneyed? Lots of questions for you to answer here!
Yes, he/she was on-line earlier today when I expected a response to several posts.  Mmm...
Taken a dose of his own medicine ?

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 144
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by inspirespirit on 12.04.15 11:20

Cyaneyed....   why cadaver odour only in 5A  ?   There were doctors in the other apartments.   If Kate had handled 6 cadavers before coming on holiday, the cadaver odour would have contaminated ALL of their clothes in the suitcases.   ALL of the apartments with doctors in should have had cadaver odour in plus wherever Kate had been.  The seats at the Tapas Bar should have been contaminated.

How did it get at the back of the sofa?  Did she roll around on the floor?

inspirespirit

Posts : 179
Reputation : 31
Join date : 2014-06-26
Age : 63

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 12.04.15 11:24

Elvis has left the building.....

Carrry On Doctor

Posts : 346
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2014-01-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by waiting for justice on 12.04.15 11:30

One thing that has always confused me, and for me, raised question as to any checks ever been completed at all was the other parents offers to check the Mc children. 
None of them ever mention (afaik) checking anybody elses children, the Mc's never mention returning the favour and checking other children at the same time as thiers. I just find it hard to swallow personally and almost see it as confirmation that it was a quickly made up routine so as to not come under fire for neglect imo.
If the reason was that the apartment was closest and had to be passed anyway, I would still think someone would do the decent thing and return the favour. 


Take away all the routines/statements and the found facts at the scene still don't point to an outside abductor/burgulator imo. 

All credit to the effort to put slightly different into the mix but the whole theory relies on the timeline. Something I personally think is not to be taken seriously.

waiting for justice

Posts : 107
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2014-06-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by noddy100 on 12.04.15 13:45

I agree its all about timelines re who saw Madeleine and her siblings when etc but not the others who were just as young and vulnerable and in need of being checked on

noddy100

Posts : 697
Reputation : 37
Join date : 2013-05-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by lj on 12.04.15 15:41

@Amy Dean wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5jtmkXXv58

LJ, this is the clip about sedatives.
Thanks, Amy. That's the one I meant. He's  such a bad liar. Kate's face is worth a study too.

ETA:

http://l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun.com/McCann_Mitchell-_Guilty_.html

l-azzeri talks there about sedation, a good piece again. She/he gives a link to a video, and even points out the time. Her piece is from April 9th, 2015. I assume, since she could give the exact time, that video was still there, it has since been removed. 

Oh TM, it is useless. All those videos have been saved and will pop up again, and again. 

BTW, I believe this is the video where Gerry pulls even more body parts.

____________________
"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

lj

Posts : 3280
Reputation : 153
Join date : 2009-12-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by lj on 12.04.15 15:43

@BlueBag wrote:There is no such thing as a "new member" coming up with verbose and detailed posts after all this time. 

I think cyaneyed was either yanking our chains for a laugh (but perhaps there was too much effort for that) or worse fishing.

If fishing then there are loads of things in this forum anyway... a lot of it planted by the fishermen (do fishermen plant?)


They use bait though!

I agree, no such a thing as a new member.

____________________
"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

lj

Posts : 3280
Reputation : 153
Join date : 2009-12-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by BlueBag on 12.04.15 18:26

@waiting for justice wrote:One thing that has always confused me, and for me, raised question as to any checks ever been completed at all was the other parents offers to check the Mc children. 
None of them ever mention (afaik) checking anybody elses children, the Mc's never mention returning the favour and checking other children at the same time as thiers. I just find it hard to swallow personally and almost see it as confirmation that it was a quickly made up routine so as to not come under fire for neglect imo.
If the reason was that the apartment was closest and had to be passed anyway, I would still think someone would do the decent thing and return the favour. 


Take away all the routines/statements and the found facts at the scene still don't point to an outside abductor/burgulator imo. 

All credit to the effort to put slightly different into the mix but the whole theory relies on the timeline. Something I personally think is not to be taken seriously.
I believe it's on record that the McCanns never checked anyone else's children.

I don't have a link but I remember reading this somewhere.

Which just blows the "checking" BS out the window.

BlueBag

Posts : 3549
Reputation : 1336
Join date : 2014-06-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by Lands_end on 15.04.15 17:04

What I want to ascertain is how far my 'how' is realistic.


Consider the percentage in which child disappearances involve a family member or friend 97%plus.
Consider the likelihood of someone being in the apartment with nowhere to hide, not even behind a door whilst the apartment is checked by another family member, I would say 1% of truth.
Consider the likelihood of 2 dogs giving false indications when they have never before failed then that has to be around 0.001% or less.
Consider the fact that the parents repeatedly lied and changed stories , no percentage assessment available just see the next line according to calculus first principles

I'd say your whole hypothesis as to your how being realistic is dy/dx=0.

Lands_end

Posts : 89
Reputation : 24
Join date : 2015-03-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by PeterMac on 15.04.15 19:47

@BlueBag wrote:
I believe it's on record that the McCanns never checked anyone else's children.
I don't have a link but I remember reading this somewhere.
Which just blows the "checking" BS out the window.
Perhaps it was this.
Just Checking

We examine and compare the various accounts given by the group of their “system” for checking the children during the evenings they spent in the Tapas bar.

Book,  p. 75   That Sunday night we headed over to the restaurant. We were all there except Matt, who had a bit of a dodgy stomach, which he attributed to something he’d eaten en route to Portugal. The rest of us enjoyed our meal. The food was good and it was nice to have a little adult time. There weren’t many other diners and, since we were such a large group, we were focused on chatting to and bantering with each other and not taking much notice of anyone else. It was, I remember, very cold and windy and I discovered that five layers of clothing were required to keep me comfortable. We nipped back to our respective apartments every half-hour to check on the children – apart from Rachael, since Matt had stayed behind, and Dave and Fiona, who had a state-of-the-art baby monitor with them. Our visits also gave us a convenient opportunity to pop to the loo or, in my case, to pick up an extra cardigan.    [1]

In press interviews the McCanns always give the impression that there was a checking system in place whereby everyone took a turn of checking not only their own children, every half hour, but probably the children of the others in the group.

It is clear from examining the statements that this did not happen
 
The group consisted of four couples, plus the mother of one of the women in the group.  Nine adults in total.

David and Fiona Payne  did no checking of anyone’s children, including their own, as they had a baby monitor and relied on this.
Dianne Webster  (Fiona Payne’s mother) did no checking at any time.
Rachael and Matthew Oldfield did not check on anyone else’s children.
Jane Tanner and Russell O’Brien did not check on anyone else’s children
Kate and Gerry McCann never checked on anyone else’s children.

So this impression the McCanns have given of the adults in their group all running back and forth checking each others' children is most certainly not the truth.

On the night Madeleine was reported as missing the McCanns claim their checks were around every 30 minutes.    [2]

But after Madeleine had told them on the Thursday morning (she was reported missing on Thursday night) that she and her brother had been crying on the previous night – the McCanns decided they would check their children more regularly.  [3],  [4],  [5]

If every 30 minutes was more regular than previous nights, then the McCann children were not being checked every 30 minutes throughout that week.   Hourly is more credible.

On the night Madeleine was reported as missing, Gerry McCann claims to have checked around 9pm.   Kate McCann claimed her check took place around 10pm.  

This would tie in with the statement of Mrs Fenn who lived in the apartment above the McCanns that she heard a child crying in the McCann apartment for more than an hour on the night of Tuesday 1st May 2007.   [6]
Note:  The statement about deciding to check the children more regularly, or “keep a closer watch” or be “more vigilant” was released to the Press some time after the secret meeting of the Tapas group in Rothley.  This meeting was before the Tapas friends were due to give their Rogatory interviews,  but it was specifically denied by their spokesman that the intention was to “get their stories right”.    [7]
But it is fairly obvious that the Media were given this statement by Clarence Mitchell on their behalf, and it seems it was an important part of the attempt to show that the McCanns, and indeed all the group were “responsible parents”

As an aside one must recall that both Gerry and Kate stated clearly that had it not been for the altered position of the bedroom door neither of them would have bothered even to look into the room.    [8], [9]

And Oldfield was very quick to distance himself from the position of having been the last person to see Madeleine alive.  [10]

Carlos Anjos from the Association of Police Investigators stated
“They said that every half an hour they would go and look in on the children and all of them, we found in EVERYBODY'S statement, some questions that suggest that actually they DIDN'T go and see the children.”   [11]

Let us take the Tapas group’s statements in turn

1 Matthew Oldfield  
Rogatory Interview with Leicestershire Police:
“MO:   “It  WASN'T usual routine err for us to check on each other’s children”
 I’d NOT done it before”

4078 "Was there an actual discussion between the group of you as to the sort of fifteen minute checks or ten minute checks or whatever or was it something that you as a couple had decided on and then the circumstances during the week meant that everyone had sort of taken it in turns to check?"
 
Reply "No, we pretty much checked our, well certainly we checked our own and it was only the last night that we offered to check for Gerry and Kate.
----
4078  Up until the Wednesday night, from what you have already said then, you didn't go into Gerry and Kate's apartment, well, sorry, you didn't check on Gerry and Kate's children?"
Reply "No".

Asking re Oldfield listening at the shuttered window:
4078 "Was that the first time that you had taken it UPON YOURSELF to check on somebody else's child?"
Reply "Yeah, I'd NOT done it before”   [12]

2 Kate McCann
Kate McCann witness statement:
'During this check, she thinks that Gerry did not check on the children of any other couple, because it was usual just to check on their own children.
Further stating:
'She never checked on any other child, other than her own.'  [13]

3    -   Rachael Oldfield  (Mampilly)
DC 1578 of Leicestershire Police asked:
“So what sort of arrangements did you come to as a group in respect of checking on the children”?
RO: “That we would Just check our own children, basically, erm”.

Confirmation that there was NO checking system agreed or put in place to check on each other’s children, nor even to listen at shuttered windows.

RO:  "We hadn't done that before you know, that hadn't been part of the routine, sort of listening, even listening at other people's windows"  [14]

4 Dianne Webster:
She clarifies that the practice was for each couple to check THEIR OWN children, it NOT being usual for anyone to check the children of other couples.
 
Dianne Webster also confirms that she did not leave the dinner table on any evening during the holiday to check on anyone’s children. [15]

5 Fiona Payne
During dinner, as they were in a possession of a "baby monitor", they did not go to the apartment to check on their children.  [16]

6 David Payne:
In answer to our question the interviewee states that during ALL the meals, he NEVER went to his apartment or to ANY of the group's apartments, because he has an, "intercom," and the signal carries from the apartment to the restaurant. [17]

7 Gerry McCann:
Police witness statement
On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, apart from the deponent and his wife, he thinks that DAVID PAYNE also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children.  [18]

(But see above.  David Payne  [14])
‘During all the meals he never went to his apartment or to any of the group's apartments, because he has an, "intercom," and the signal carries from the apartment to the restaurant.’
Therefore we can say that Dr Payne did not check on the McCann children on the night of Wednesday 2nd May 2007, or any other night.)

Back to Gerry McCann’s statement -
On this day, the deponent (Gerry McCann) and KATE had already left the back door (patio) closed, but not locked, to allow entrance by their group of colleagues to check on the children.’ [19]

So Gerry and Kate McCann had already by the night of Wednesday 2nd May changed routine They now did not use the front door in the evenings but left the patio door unlocked so that the group of colleagues could enter their apartment and check on their children.

None of the group of colleagues took advantage of Gerry’s gesture, leaving a door unlocked for them, perhaps because, according to the colleagues’ statements to police, NONE of them checked on the McCann children, and NONE of them knew of any such arrangement.
8 Jane Tanner

Stated that normally every 15 minutes a member from each apartment would go and check the bedrooms of the respective children to see if everything was all right.
At no time does she mention that on any of her visits, or that of her partner Russell O’Brien did either one of them listen at the shuttered windows or doors of any of the apartments occupied by members of the group.  [20]

Rogatory interview Leicester police
The officer is questioning Jane Tanner re the night of Wednesday 2nd May 2007.
Tanner: –   I’m trying to think if by that point we were checking on each other’s…”

4078  “That was part of my next question.”

Reply  -  “Oh right. Err I mean I didn’t personally, I think, I mean I’ll tell you when I went back I just tended to check on bars and I listened at Matt and Rachael’s, you know at some point we listened at Matt and Rachael’s window and down there but err no I can’t remember, but by that stage I think we were listening but we didn’t, I don’t know whether people actually went in to, to be honest nobody, if we hadn’t gone nobody could have gone in to ours because they’d need the key so when people did check ours they did, they did just listen, so.”  [21]


Let us re-cap briefly and try to precis the above.

Gerry McCann states that David Payne checked on the McCann children on the evening of Wednesday 2nd May 2007, and of how Payne reported back to him (McCann) that all was well -  when this absolutely did not happen. (See above)

As David Payne and his wife Fiona have stated, they had a baby monitor, they never left the dinner table on any night to check on anyone’s children.
This was confirmed by all in the group.

Jane Tanner gives details of the routine checks, and of how they the group listened at shuttered windows, not initially, but as the week progressed.
But the rest of the group are not in agreement on this.

The Oldfield’s - Matthew and Rachael - state they never at any time during that week (with the exception of the night Madeleine vanished) checked on anyone’s children and further state that they did NOT listen either at shuttered windows or doors at any time.   They further stated that NO ONE did this – not even Jane Tanner or Russell O’Brien
It seems it just was not part of any routine.

Dianne Webster confirms she did not check anyone’s children, and confirmed that each couple checked on their own children.

On the evidence of these statements we must conclude there was NO routine in place. Those who did, checked only their own children.

Kate McCann confirmed she did not check on anyone’s children nor she listen at shuttered windows, and confirmed that Gerry McCann did not check on anyone else’s children.

Matthew Oldfield stated that not only was it a first for him on the night Madeleine disappeared to check on the McCann children, a first too for him to have listened at the shuttered window, something he took upon himself to do, but he states it was a FIRST also for Russell O’Brien.

9 Russell O’Brien
Russell O’Brien, the partner of Jane Tanner made the most intriguing statements of the group.   They are also the most confused.  He appears confused as to whether he checked or did not check, listened or did not listen at doors.

Russell O'Brien's rogatory interview took place on 8 April 2008 and had to be repeated on 10 April 2008  when the Detective and O’Brien went through a statement which had been prepared from the audio track of the tape, because the video track had malfunctioned on 8th

This entry at the beginning of the second interview may be of importance -

I have been given the opportunity to refresh my memory from the statement made by Jane TANNER (my wife) and I have been allowed to see these documents, this was done in the presence of DC 1578 GIERC.

These are extracts from the transcript of the long Rogatory interview  [my emphases]

“On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s.

“I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times. 

“I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked.  I recall that their front door was accessed from the car-park,access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside.
 
“And then on Sunday ‘I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s and my recollection is that I needed Matt’s key to check on their room and I had it, but I didn’t need Kate and Gerry’s key because THEY went through the patio door’, erm, WE went through the patio door to cross in and look into the children’s bedroom.”

"I definitely did NOT go in through Gerry’s and Kate’s main, you know, double locked door or anything, I’m SURE I went through the patio, so I think they were doing things differently from Matt and Rachael, at least from the ground floor perspective, right from the word go”.  [22]

O’Brien, as those who read the full transcript will see, stresses how the McCanns did not secure their apartment in the way that he and Jane Tanner and the Oldfield couple did with theirs, all being on the ground floor.

But something is seriously wrong with O’Brien’s statements.  The above comments specifically refer to his checking of both the Oldfield and the McCann children on the Sunday evening?

Matthew Oldfield was unwell on the Sunday evening and did not leave his apartment. [23]
How is it possible then that Russell O’Brien took from Oldfield his key to go and check on the Oldfield child when Oldfield was not at the tapas for dinner that evening.  Oldfield was in fact in his apartment looking after his daughter ?
Matthew and Rachael Oldfield have both confirmed that no one ever checked on their child by entering their apartment

Referring to O’Brien’s check, where he claims to have gone into the McCann apartment through the unlocked patio door –

Gerry and Kate McCann have stated categorically they did not leave their patio door unlocked early in the week (the Sunday was the first night the group had gone to the tapas bar). They claim to have changed to this routine – leaving the patio door unlocked, at some point during the week.  

According to the McCanns their apartment was locked on the Sunday evening, so Russell O’Brien did not enter the McCann apartment through the patio doors and check on the McCann children. 
 
Gerry McCann re the Sunday evening:

They [he and his wife Kate McCann] left the house through the main door (front door) that he was sure he locked, and the back door (patio) was also closed and locked . . . .
On that day, only the deponent and his wife entered the apartment.      [24]

Is this simply a case of O’Brien getting hopelessly confused, or of something else ?

These statements were given after the infamous Rothley meeting of the Tapas Group and their advisors.

As he had also been given access to Jane Tanner’s statements it is surely of interest that his interview did not match more closely.

To conclude -

The decision by Clarence Mitchell to give to the press - after the Rothley meeting - a version of events which details increasing the vigilance or frequency of the checks seems spectacularly to have backfired on the McCanns.

It not only draws attention to the paucity of any checks made during the week, but also draws attention to the contents of the statements in which it is clear that even if the McCanns had visited the apartment, their intention was not to look at the children at all.  

It iseems that only an alleged change in the somewhat esoteric detail of the exact angle of the bedroom door caused them, individually, to do so.

It is important to remember that what is apparently to be referred to as “spin” like this was being given regularly to the press long before either he or the McCanns knew that the original statements would one day be released for scrutiny by the entire world.

What precisely we are expected to believe is somewhat unclear.

REFERENCES

1 “madeleine” by Kate McCann,  Random House, 2011,

2 Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann, 4th May 2007
http//mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta2

3 Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann,  10th May 2007
http://mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta2

4 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/1584584/
Madeleine-McCann-complained-to-mother-Kate-about-being-left-crying-alone.html

5 http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4764346#.UYLJgeBX9Nk

6 Witness statement of Pamela Fenn 20th August 2007
http://mccannfiles.com/id331.html#fenn1

7 http://news.sky.com/story/559235/madeleine-mccanns-parents-at-meeting-of-tapas-nine

8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhACS6ck-Dw&feature=player_embedded

9 Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann,  10th May 2007
http://mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta2

10 Witness statement of Matthew Oldfield - 04 May 2007
http://mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap3

11 PANORAMA  The Mystery of Madeleine McCann    Reporter: Richard Bilton
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC ONE 19:11:07
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id48.html

12 Matthew Oldfield - Rogatory Interview  Leicestershire HQ  9th April 2008
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id219.html

13 Witness statement of Kate Marie Healy, 6th of September 2007,
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta5

14 Rachael Mampilly / Oldfield - Rogatory interview - Leicestershire HQ, 9th April 2008             http://www.mccannfiles.com/id253.html

15 Witness Statement of Dianne Webster 11th May 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap14

16 Witness Statement  of Fiona Elaine Payne 4th May 2008
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap6

17 Witness statement of David Payne - 4th May 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html

18 Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann, 10th May 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html

19 Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann, 10th of May 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html

20 Witness Statement of Jane Michelle Tanner  4th May 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap2

21 Jane Tanner - Rogatory Interview  4th August 2008
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id222.html

22 Russell James O'Brien - Rogatory Interview   10th April 2008
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id221.html

23 Matthew Oldfield - Rogatory Interview  Leicestershire HQ  9th April 2008
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id219.html

24 Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann,10th of May 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html





APPENDICES

1 p. 75   That Sunday night we headed over to the restaurant. We were all there except Matt, who had a bit of a dodgy stomach, which he attributed to something he’d eaten en route to Portugal. The rest of us enjoyed our meal. The food was good and it was nice to have a little adult time. There weren’t many other diners and, since we were such a large group, we were focused on chatting to and bantering with each other and not taking much notice of anyone else. It was, I remember, very cold and windy and I discovered that five layers of clothing were required to keep me comfortable. We nipped back to our respective apartments every half-hour to check on the children – apart from Rachael, since Matt had stayed behind, and Dave and Fiona, who had a state-of-the-art baby monitor with them. Our visits also gave us a convenient opportunity to pop to the loo or, in my case, to pick up an extra cardigan.

2 As usual, every half hour and considering that the restaurant was close to the apartment, the deponent or his wife went to check if the children were ok.

3 On the day that MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time, between 07H30 and 08H00. When they were having breakfast, MADELEINE addressed her mother and asked her "why didn't you come last night when SEAN and I were crying?" That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never spoken like this and, the night before, they had maintained the same system of checking on the children, not having detected anything abnormal. When he questioned her about the comment, she left without any explanation.

4 But in extracts read out on Spanish broadcaster Telecinco’s late morning programme El Programa de Ana Rosa, it emerged that Mrs McCann had told police about a conversation she had with Madeleine on the morning she disappeared.
The little girl, then aged three, spoke to her mother because she had left her and twins Sean and Amelie alone in the night. Mrs McCann’s statement said: "While we were having breakfast, Madeleine said: 'Mummy, why didn’t you come when we were crying last night?’.
"Gerry and I spoke for a couple of minutes and agreed to keep a closer watch over the children."

5 "We obviously told the police because we thought, does this indicate that someone has been round the night before and that's what has woken her up?" she said. "Which is significant you know … I've persecuted myself over and over again about that statement because you think, why didn't they [the police] kind of just hold it and say, 'What do you mean?'"
Madeleine didn't answer her parents' question and "carried on playing, whatever she was doing, totally undistressed," Kate McCann said.
The McCanns say that because Madeleine didn't make a big deal about the issue that they let the matter go. But they say they consciously decided that evening to be more vigilant about checking in on the children.

6 She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted "Daddy, Daddy", the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23H45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

7 Mr Mitchell added: "The meeting was as much a show of support for Gerry and Kate. This was in no way to get their stories straight.  This is the age of email and phone. They could have done that a long time ago."

8 Kate “I did my check about ten o’clock and went in through the sliding patio doors, and I just stood actually, and I thought, uh, all quiet. And to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then, but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door where the three children were sleeping, was open much further than we’d left it.
I went to close it to about here, and then as I got to here, it suddenly . . . slammed, and as I opened it, it was then, that I just thought I’ll just look at the children.
I see Sean and Amelie in the cot . . . .  “

9 He walked the normal route up to the back door, which being open he only had to slide, and while he was entering the living room, he noticed that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought was strange, having then thought that possibly MADELEINE had got up to go to sleep in his bedroom, so as to avoid the noise produced by her siblings. Therefore, he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and he is certain of this, that the three were deeply asleep.

10 At around 21h25, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom quarters, that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was half-open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping.  

11 CARLOS ANJOS
Association of Police Investigators
They said that every half an hour they would go and look in on the children and all of them, we found in everybody's statement, some questions that suggest that actually they didn't go and see the children.

12 4078 "Was there an actual discussion between the group of you as to the sort of fifteen minute checks or ten minute checks or whatever or was it something that you as a couple had decided on and then the circumstances during the week meant that everyone had sort of taken it in turns to check?"
 
Reply "No, we pretty much checked our, well certainly we checked our own and it was only the last night that we offered to check for Gerry and Kate. It just, we are sort of fairly similar, our sort of views on sort of child care and that it was important, we're sort of from the same background, we have sort of similar issues about sort of child rearing, which is why we sort of get on and there was nothing obvious that anybody would do anything particularly different. I mean, Russell and Jane sort of, erm, are sort of fairly relaxed and easy going, erm, and Dave and Fi are sort of a bit disorganised and a bit late and Gerry and Kate are much more organised and we sort of fit sort of between that end of between, between that end of the scale and Russell and Jane. So it was all sort of, it was just sort of natural, we didn't decide, oh we'll do this, it just sort of came at natural breaks, we'd come down and we'd go between sort of courses to sort of check, but we usually, we'd check our own and, as far as I know, that didn't really change. Although, because it wouldn't seem, certainly for Russell and Jane I'd be happy to check for their children because they know me and if, you know, they had been awake and I went in they wouldn't be particularly, erm, you know, they wouldn't be particularly shocked or surprised or not know who I was, but Gerry and Kate and their children I didn't know them so well, so I wouldn't and certainly at the beginning of the week have offered to check their children or assumed that that would be okay, it was only at the end of the week when we seemed to know each other better and our routines and everybody seemed to be doing the same thing that it seemed to be a nice thing to do to offer to save them a trip".

13 During this check, she thinks that Gerry did not check on the children of any other couple, because it was usual just to check on their own children. She never checked on any other child, other than her own.

14 1578    “So what sort of arrangements did you come to as a group in respect of checking on the children”?
Reply    “That we would just check our own children basically, erm”.
1578    “How often”?
Reply    “Erm about sort of every twenty minutes, I mean we kind of, I mean Gerry and Kate were very good about you know doing it every twenty minutes, I think they must have been a bit oh okay, think it’s about twenty minutes so we’ll, we’ll go and have a look and you know so everyone went at different times, it wasn’t like everyone suddenly got up to go and check, erm”.

15 Asked, she states that it would be normal for one member of each of the couples to get up regularly in order to check in their apartments if the children were well. She clarifies that the practice was for each couple to check their own children, it not being usual for anyone to check the children of other couples.
The question asked, she thinks that up to the date of the disappearance it had never happened that anyone had entered the apartment of another couple in order to check their offspring.
Nevertheless, it seems that the Payne couple and the witness, did not make any trips to apartments, because they had an intercom called a "baby monitor", through which sounds or noises of the children could be heard.

16 During dinner, as they were in a possession of a "baby monitor", they did not go to the apartment to check on their children and would only do so if they heard any strange noises or crying.

17 In answer to our question, the interviewee states that during all the meals, he never went to his apartment or to any of the group's apartments, because he has an, "intercom," and the signal carries from the apartment to the restaurant. The other members of the group went, randomly, every 20 minutes, to their apartments to make sure their respective children were asleep.

18 On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, apart from the deponent and his wife, he thinks that DAVID PAYNE also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children.

19 On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, apart from the deponent and his wife, he thinks that DAVID PAYNE also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children. On this day, the deponent and KATE had already left the back door closed, but not locked, to allow entrance by their group colleagues to check on the children. He clarifies that the main door was always closed but not necessarily locked with the key. He does not know if the window next to the front door, and that gave access to the children's bedroom, was locked, given that he assumed that the shutters could not be opened from the outside. Still on this night, KATE slept in the children's bedroom, in the bed next to the window, because the deponent was snoring.

20 At about 21h00 her husband arrived at the restaurant, having got E**e to sleep. For this reason and because Fiona, David and Diane only arrived at about 21h00, the dinner, reserved for 20h30, only began after 21h00.
Normally, every 15 minutes a member from each apartment would go and check the bedrooms of the respective children to see if everything was all right.

21 4078    “But from the early part of the evening there’d been fairly regular checks.”
Reply    “Yeah, the same as, yeah the same as, the same as before. I can’t remember who checked when or, you know, I can’t remember when, you know whether it was me or Russell or whoever went back at that point. I don’t, I’m trying to think if by that point we were checking on each other’s…”
4078    “That was part of my next question.”
Reply    “Oh right. Err I mean I didn’t personally, I think, I mean I’ll tell you when I went back I just tended to check on bars and I listened at Matt and Rachael’s, you know at some point we listened at Matt and Rachael’s window and down there but err no I can’t remember, but by that stage I think we were listening but we didn’t, I don’t know whether people actually went in to, to be honest nobody, if we hadn’t gone nobody could have gone in to ours because they’d need the key so when people did check ours they did, they did just listen, so.”


22 Reply    “Well, ‘I’m aware that we checked our own rooms and also listened at other apartment doors and windows’ and then ‘maybe on occasion, on some occasions we actually entered the other rooms as well’.  Erm, the next paragraph, I don’t think I was quite so specific about, erm, ‘Other people’s apartments were on deadlock’, but I think when I, well, so that’s wrong.  ‘On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s’, that’s true.  Erm, I’m not sure about taking their keys, I think I, I think I definitely took Matt and Rachael’s keys, but I entered Gerry’s flat through the patio door”.

1578    “Okay.  So, ‘I had taken their keys and recall the door was deadlocked, I needed to turn the key two times, the shutters were down’?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah, I don’t think, erm, I don’t think, erm”.

1578    “’I recall that Gerry and Kate’s I had to get (inaudible)’”.

Reply    “That, that, that is me talking about our arrangements in our flat, so it’s kind of all fused into one there.  So maybe just to clarify that, it would be easier to say ‘In our flat we closed the patio door, shut and locked’, erm, ‘shut the blinds, the shutters down and locked the internal window, double locked the front door after we went out and the patio door was also locked, was closed and locked’.  So that was, that was our arrangements inside our flat.  And then on Sunday ‘I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s and my recollection is that I needed Matt’s key to check on their room and I had it, but I didn’t need Kate and Gerry’s key because they went through the patio door’, erm, we went through the patio door to cross in and look into the children’s bedroom.  So, at the time, I have to say, I didn’t really think that, you know, about the differences in how, in how we were, the security in the, in the rooms was, but, erm, I definitely did not go in through Gerry’s and Kate’s main, you know, double locked door or anything, I’m sure I went through the patio, so I think they were doing things differently from Matt and Rachael, at least from the ground floor perspective, right from the word go”.

23 4078 "You said that on Saturday you were feeling a little bit unwell?"
 
Reply "Saturday I felt unwell, didn't eat much in the evening, which for a free buffet is pretty unusual for me, and then I started throwing up in the evening and I ascribed it to, when we were on the plane on the way out, they were giving out the meals and, you know, all the kids had been changing seats, so there was, I was sat with, erm, E***, which is, erm, Russell and Jane's eldest daughter and maybe E*** on one side and maybe G**** as well, but one of the meals that came round the plastic had already come off and it was in front of E*** and I said 'You have mine just in case there's something wrong with it' and so I blamed that I felt sick that perhaps I was right, it had sort of gone off or something. It may not have been, it may just have been a bug or something, but I usually don't get diarrhoea and vomiting, I mean, I can't remember the last time I've been sick. Erm, but I started feeling a little bit queasy in the evening and then the, erm, the Saturday evening into the Sunday morning I was actually throwing up, which is just incredibly rare for me. So I felt completely icky all the day Sunday, so I think to try and avoid infecting anybody else, I didn't do much outside the apartment and certainly in the evening I didn't go for, erm, didn't go for dinner with everybody else".
 
4078 "That is Sunday out the way with then".
 
Reply "So Sunday was pretty much a write-off and I was thinking, oh, the start of my holiday and I'm not doing anything that day".

24 They left the house through the main door, that he was sure he locked, and the back door was also closed and locked. They were the first to arrive at the TAPAS where everyone showed up except only for MATHEW, who was still ill. Nevertheless, his wife RACHEL showed up for dinner. Except for the situation described above, that occurred during lunch, he did not see MATHEW during the whole of Sunday.
Dinner ended at around 23h00, and during this period, every half-hour, the deponent and KATE went, alternately, to the apartment to confirm that all was well with the children. On that day, only the deponent and his wife entered the apartment. He is sure that they always entered through the front door, not knowing if they locked it upon leaving.

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 144
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by BlueBag on 16.04.15 10:16

Thanks Peter, yes that was it.

Supposedly "changed" routines prior to an incident is always a big red flag in any investigation.

BlueBag

Posts : 3549
Reputation : 1336
Join date : 2014-06-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by PeterMac on 16.04.15 11:25

@BlueBag wrote:Thanks Peter, yes that was it.
Supposedly "changed" routines prior to an incident is always a big red flag in any investigation.
It was clearly a story hastily invented for the occasion, but not sufficiently well thought through and therefore shot full of holes.
The sheer number of visits, and the running about involved also scupper completely any possible "Window of Opportunity".
They seem to have forgotten that each visit involved passing and re-passing each location.  Everyone concerned therefore appears TWICE.
Which reduces each "window" to little more than two minutes.
And each of those "Windows" is at a random interval . . .
Not enough to enter, sedate three children, select one, and remover her without leaving any forensic trace of Entry, Exit, Presence, or method of sedation
This seems to have eluded Redwood.

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 144
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: My Theory

Post by Angelique on 16.04.15 12:34

PeterMac

Inconvenient Truth perhaps?

It does seem that DCI Redwood totally ignored anything which could throw doubt on "the abduction theory".

But then the remit was abduction.

But think how it would have irritated any self respecting DCI knowing that he was just drawing a salary and not really investigating anything.


____________________
Things aren't always what they seem

Angelique

Posts : 1396
Reputation : 35
Join date : 2010-10-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 4 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum