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'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by comperedna on 19.05.15 18:11

lj wrote:Stop the government meddling in cases concerning personal values, morals and religion, and I am sure the world will be a better place.

However, 'the government' is there to uphold the law... That is one of its major jobs and where the law has been broken then consequences should follow. If some law is not liked or considered an ass, then there should be campaigning to have it changed.
Same thing applies to tax havens where relying on exhortation and supposed moral sense not to take this or that legal option up is nuts. However difficult or complex ... It's the law that must be changed... if enough people want to do it.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Joss on 19.05.15 18:12

@comperedna wrote:Plebgate, Joss and lj and a fair few others have had sensible things to say on this topic. It would be easy to be depressed by people who inflict their religious views on others.
Thankyou comperedna for your kind words, i say live & let live, don't want to step on anyone's toes smilie

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by comperedna on 19.05.15 18:15

You are lovely Joss! I have been re-reading the whole thread and was impressed by what Mo said too: she/he that worked for the Locl Authority.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Joss on 19.05.15 18:20

@comperedna wrote:lj wrote:Stop the government meddling in cases concerning personal values, morals and religion, and I am sure the world will be a better place.

However, 'the government' is there to uphold the law... That is one of its major jobs and where the law has been broken then consequences should follow. If some law is not liked or considered an ass, then there should be campaigning to have it changed.
Same thing applies to tax havens where relying on exhortation and supposed moral sense not to take this or that legal option up is nuts. However difficult or complex ... It's the law that must be changed... if enough people want to do it.
Yes i agree it is time for some law reform, but how when the whole system that controls us is corrupt? Yet it is only the people that can make a difference and demand change, but most are too apathetic to be bothered. But perhaps slowly that will change as more people realize what is going on in their world.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Joss on 19.05.15 18:30

@comperedna wrote:You are lovely Joss! I have been re-reading the whole thread and was impressed by what Mo said too: she/he that worked for the Locl Authority.
Sometimes i am comperedna, i have my not so good side too, big grin I think there is a lovely lot of peeps on here, and very good posts by a lot that post here too flower

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Knitted on 19.05.15 18:52

@plebgate wrote:People do find their religious beliefs on their own as adults - it is not always down to the parents.

edited to add. response to knitted's last post.
Yes... but statistically it's very rare.

Born to Muslim parents and live in the Middle East and you'll almost certainly be indoctrinated into the Muslim religion. Born to Hindu parents in Mumbai and you'll almost certainly be indoctrinated into the Hindu religion. Born to...etc. etc. and etc.
 
I can't now recall where I saw the data, but analysis was undertaken by a US university and they determined that if you knew the religion of someone's parents and the geography of where someone had been raised between the age of 3 and 10 then the level of certainty you could accurately determine which belief system they personally identified with (if they had one) as an adult over the age of 25, was over 99%.

Interestingly the data for extremist Muslim converts bucks the trend. Out of the 4000 or so known Europeans fighting for ISIS 615 are recent converts, (that's about 1 in 6.5).

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by plebgate on 19.05.15 19:51

Thanks for info. Knitted.

As the thread is about Christian beliefs I wanted, really, to make the point that there are many, many thousands of Born Again Christians throughout the World who have found God in adulthood. smilie

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by BlueBag on 19.05.15 20:16

@comperedna wrote:Plebgate, Joss and lj and a fair few others have had sensible things to say on this topic. It would be easy to be depressed by people who inflict their religious views on others.
Actually someone is inflicting their moral values on the baker!

He was conscientiously objecting.

The liberals preach tolerance, live and let live... unless you disagree with them.

It's all very Orwellian.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Knitted on 19.05.15 20:51

@plebgate wrote:Thanks for info. Knitted.

As the thread is about Christian beliefs I wanted, really, to make the point that there are many, many thousands of Born Again Christians throughout the World who have found God in adulthood. smilie
A good point... and the data looked at religion globally. It would be interesting to know how many Born Again Christians were already exposed to christianity during childhood and so have 're-found' god, (as opposed to finding a 'new' god different to their childhood one)? I have a hunch that's what quite a lot of Western 'Born Again' people have done.  I think that's why the study looked at those over 25 (because tempestuous teens no doubt push against religious boundaries the same as all other boundaries before settling down into a routine and the study needed to eliminate that noise from the data). So although they may have been ambivalent christians beforehand, or at least less evangelical, ultimately they were still told by their parents about the same characters from the same holy book. The study didn't go into that much detail.  Globally at least (since that was what the study looked at) the data shows that people that remain religious tend to stick with the god or goddess that they heard about as a child from their parents. A big skew of the data is of course Islam, where a 2012 PEW study showed that 36% of Muslims believe that the death penalty should be dished out to anyone that leaves Islam for another religion or becomes an Atheist.  So at best it's a big cultural taboo and at worst (in several Muslim countries) the death penalty is implemented in such cases without fail.  So, if it wasn't a matter of life and death for such a huge swathe of Humanity then I've no doubt the data relating to 'parent to child baton passing of belief' wouldn't be as high as it was shown to be.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by aquila on 19.05.15 21:21

@BlueBag wrote:
@comperedna wrote:Plebgate, Joss and lj and a fair few others have had sensible things to say on this topic. It would be easy to be depressed by people who inflict their religious views on others.
Actually someone is inflicting their moral values on the baker!

He was conscientiously objecting.

The liberals preach tolerance, live and let live... unless you disagree with them.

It's all very Orwellian.
I don't know where I stand on this issue.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Knitted on 19.05.15 21:44

@BlueBag wrote:
@comperedna wrote:Plebgate, Joss and lj and a fair few others have had sensible things to say on this topic. It would be easy to be depressed by people who inflict their religious views on others.
Actually someone is inflicting their moral values on the baker!

He was conscientiously objecting.

The liberals preach tolerance, live and let live... unless you disagree with them.

It's all very Orwellian.
There is no indication that the customers who wanted the cake ever preached 'tolerance, live and let live'. They may well have been as indoctrinated and pig-headed as the baker and were promoting an ideology that was as far from 'liberal' as the baker's one.


It's a divisive issue because there's no 'black or white' with cases such as this. Where different opinions and values clash it's inevitably and unavoidably a murky grey area.

I think (hope?) we'd all agree that in an ideal world people should be free to do and act just as they please and be guided by their conscience.  With that comes the responsibility to treat others as one would wish to be treated, and also to accept that people aren't going to always see eye to eye and so 'move on' where appropriate.  In this case you had two parties both feeling they were right and feeling their consciences justified their not backing down and thus both parties did indeed try to 'inflict' their values on each other. In days of old such differences may have been settled with violence or led to a long simmering feud... so I think it's a positive that the arguments have been heard and arbitrated on and not a nosebleed or black-eye was necessary.  That seems like progress to me.

The trouble is, at least for me, religion has an unfair advantage and so the playing field in our society is far from level.  Because of childhood indoctrination, tax-free status, seats in the House of Lords, automatic unwarranted deference, etc. the situation is that 'religious values', (some of which are blatantly rather outmoded!), have an unfair 'head-start' in our society.  I'd defend any (adult) persons right to believe in what they wish to believe in... but, when an adult is simply repeating and perpetuating a divisive mindset that was instilled into them in childhood when their faculties were still developing, it is surely appropriate to challenge it and at least 'test' its validity in a modern, civil, society.  If religious 'values' weren't steadily challenged in this way we'd still have colour prejudice, slavery, and misogyny enshrined in UK secular law. Yes, christianity is relatively tame in the UK, and this weas 'only a cake'... but my concern is the steady increase in Islam (a deeply worrying ideology if ever one existed) due to increasing birth rates in Muslim countries.  Therefore I am pleased that religious 'views' are being challenged and not given a free-pass. Those people that would rather religions are given some sort of automatic protection and/or are treated with kid gloves, need to be very careful what they wish for!  45yrs ago Iran, and Syria were vibrant places with many 'Western' freedoms... Now look at them.  That's what happens if religions are given a free pass to cajole and intimidate and assert ancient silliness onto the easy going masses.

Anyway... A few days ago I downloaded Orwell's 1984 to listen to (all 9 and a half hours of it) and I'm about to listen to it!

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by aquila on 19.05.15 21:50

@Knitted wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@comperedna wrote:Plebgate, Joss and lj and a fair few others have had sensible things to say on this topic. It would be easy to be depressed by people who inflict their religious views on others.
Actually someone is inflicting their moral values on the baker!

He was conscientiously objecting.

The liberals preach tolerance, live and let live... unless you disagree with them.

It's all very Orwellian.
There is no indication that the customers who wanted the cake ever preached 'tolerance, live and let live'. They may well have been as indoctrinated and pig-headed as the baker and were promoting an ideology that was as far from 'liberal' as the baker's one.


It's a divisive issue because there's no 'black or white' with cases such as this. Where different opinions and values clash it's inevitably and unavoidably a murky grey area.

I think (hope?) we'd all agree that in an ideal world people should be free to do and act just as they please and be guided by their conscience.  With that comes the responsibility to treat others as one would wish to be treated, and also to accept that people aren't going to always see eye to eye and so 'move on' where appropriate.  In this case you had two parties both feeling they were right and feeling their consciences justified their not backing down and thus both parties did indeed try to 'inflict' their values on each other. In days of old such differences may have been settled with violence or led to a long simmering feud... so I think it's a positive that the arguments have been heard and arbitrated on and not a nosebleed or black-eye was necessary.  That seems like progress to me.

The trouble is, at least for me, religion has an unfair advantage and so the playing field in our society is far from level.  Because of childhood indoctrination, tax-free status, seats in the House of Lords, automatic unwarranted deference, etc. the situation is that 'religious values', (some of which are blatantly rather outmoded!), have an unfair 'head-start' in our society.  I'd defend any (adult) persons right to believe in what they wish to believe in... but, when an adult is simply repeating and perpetuating a divisive mindset that was instilled into them in childhood when their faculties were still developing, it is surely appropriate to challenge it and at least 'test' its validity in a modern, civil, society.  If religious 'values' weren't steadily challenged in this way we'd still have colour prejudice, slavery, and misogyny enshrined in UK secular law. Yes, christianity is relatively tame in the UK, and this weas 'only a cake'... but my concern is the steady increase in Islam (a deeply worrying ideology if ever one existed) due to increasing birth rates in Muslim countries.  Therefore I am pleased that religious 'views' are being challenged and not given a free-pass. Those people that would rather religions are given some sort of automatic protection and/or are treated with kid gloves, need to be very careful what they wish for!  45yrs ago Iran, and Syria were vibrant places with many 'Western' freedoms... Now look at them.  That's what happens if religions are given a free pass to cajole and intimidate and assert ancient silliness onto the easy going masses.

Anyway... A few days ago I downloaded Orwell's 1984 to listen to (all 9 and a half hours of it) and I'm about to listen to it!
Can you say where you downloaded 1984 from? I'd like to listen to it.

I PM'd you earlier re another issue.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Knitted on 19.05.15 22:14

@aquila wrote:Can you say where you downloaded 1984 from? I'd like to listen to it.

I PM'd you earlier re another issue.
I've replied...

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Hobs on 19.05.15 23:51

Something to ponder.

I am an out and proud atheist.

Answer me this.

If god created adam and eve, and they had sons and daughters (the number depending on what you read/believe in)
There must have been one hell of a lot of incest going on in order for the rest of the human race to come from them.


The same goes for noah, his 3 sons and their wives.

I also have a problem since as an analyst, 3 is known as the liars number and it shows up rather a lot in the bible.

The ongoing problem between religious belief and seualit6y equality needs to be decided once and for all.

As it stands businesses cannot refuse service based on someone sexuality, nor can they refuse service based on religion.

One or the other has to give way.

it needs to be applied across ALL religions and ALL sexualities.

Either you can refuse service based on your religious belief or you can't.

You can demand a service regardless of your sexuality or you can't.

What cannot work, and we are seeing it, is cases where one supersedes the other and then the next week it is vice versa.

Religious belief depends solely on your own interpretation.

if you believe in the bible, you have to accept the contradictions.
If you follow its rules then it applies to ALL the rules not just the bits that suit you.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Joss on 20.05.15 4:37

@BlueBag wrote:
@comperedna wrote:Plebgate, Joss and lj and a fair few others have had sensible things to say on this topic. It would be easy to be depressed by people who inflict their religious views on others.
Actually someone is inflicting their moral values on the baker!

He was conscientiously objecting.

The liberals preach tolerance, live and let live... unless you disagree with them.

It's all very Orwellian.
I don't know about Orwellian, but to me its more of being our own person and seeing and feeling life through our own level of right or wrong, and acting from that. If something doesn't feel right, then it goes against our better judgement, and we won't do it. We all practice tolerance to a certain degree, that is how human beings interact and try and get along with each other. And yes, the baker would of gone against his own feeling of what to him was right or wrong, its as simple as that, and i think he had every right to refuse, as it went against his principles.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Joss on 20.05.15 5:08

Maybe the person in question doesn't like or support gays, and used religion as his reason not to ice the cake with that logo? Maybe the person that wanted the cake iced was doing it to enforce his will of being gay onto other people? I wish they would just keep their sexual persuasion and religion out of these things, because all it does is complicate issues. Who cares what people do privately between consenting adults, they need to keep it where it belongs, privately. As well as religion, it also should not be forced on people that might find it offensive. If like seeks like, then let people mingle with those that feel as they do and leave the rest out of the equation,then perhaps the world would be a happier place, and the Govt. could stop wasting tax payer money on such silly affairs, IMO.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by PeterMac on 20.05.15 7:49

Will Muslim Butchers now have to sell Pork ?
Ah, No. I thought not.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by plebgate on 20.05.15 7:53

http://www.gotquestions.org/born-again.html

@knitted, I should think many Born Again Christians were "exposed" to religion as children either through parents or school/church, but  did not accept what they were told?

At the end of the day the judge had to uphold the law of the country - that's what it comes down to for me.

No discrimination in the workplace.

Interesting that the Irish people have a vote on Friday on whether homosexuality should be legalised in the country.   

Also interesting that we did not, AFAIK anyway.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by plebgate on 20.05.15 7:54

@PeterMac wrote:
I was only saying the other day we no longer see fairy cakes for sale - it's cup cakes now.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by BlueBag on 20.05.15 7:58

Knitted

 In this case you had two parties both feeling they were right and feeling their consciences justified their not backing down and thus both parties did indeed try to 'inflict' their values on each other.
With all due respect... the baker wasn't inflicting anything. He was objecting to doing something that violated his conscience.

I'm sure we all have our own moral boundaries beyond which we would not go.

The person who wanted the cake could have gone to a baker that was happy to do it and it would have been no big deal.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by BlueBag on 20.05.15 7:59

@PeterMac wrote:Will Muslim Butchers now have to sell Pork ?
Ah, No. I thought not.

In a nutshell Peter!

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by aquila on 20.05.15 8:49

@BlueBag wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:Will Muslim Butchers now have to sell Pork ?
Ah, No. I thought not.

In a nutshell Peter!
I can see all sides of the argument and I'm no further forward.

A few years ago an acquaintance of mine went into a store in UK to buy Christmas stocking fillers - the usual tat that is purchased more for its packaging than its content. This white girl (who lived in Kos at the time) was brought up in a Christian country and her beau was a muslim. She and I met in Athens airport to get our connecting flights to UK to go home for Christmas. We also by accident met again on our return flights at another time. She told me she was absolutely disgusted that a muslim woman refused to serve her at the till (the store was BHS) because it contained alcohol and under the religion of Islam she would not handle the transaction due to her religious beliefs. My acquaintance was very vociferous as she waited and held up the queue (who were probably clutching the same products) so that someone else could be found to deal with things. She was subsequently escorted out of BHS by security. This is a young woman who had no problem with religion.

Where it becomes murky for me is where religion and sexuality are put into the same mixing bowl.

Islam and Christianity have no place for homosexuality in their scripts and yet both religions are riddled with latent/disguised/covered up homosexuality within. It's a sin to be homosexual say both.

Homosexual activists really get on my wick. There is more freedom for homosexuality than there has ever been and yet still the activists demand more and more and more - even homosexuals who live regular lives are horrified by them, particularly in this case as it does nothing other than defeat everyone in and around it. It's clearly been designed as a landmark target in Northern Ireland.

What I find completely astonishing is the utter disregard for the feelings of homosexuals who lead good and integrated lives by homosexual activists.

This fiasco wasn't about a cake. This was about homosexual (I refuse to use the word gay as homosexuals ought to be repulsed by that description imo) activists in Northern Ireland where the law is about to be shoved down your throat whether you like or not.

As I say, I'm still no further forward.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Amy Dean on 20.05.15 8:50

@plebgate wrote:http://www.gotquestions.org/born-again.html

@knitted, I should think many Born Again Christians were "exposed" to religion as children either through parents or school/church, but  did not accept what they were told?

At the end of the day the judge had to uphold the law of the country - that's what it comes down to for me.

No discrimination in the workplace.

Interesting that the Irish people have a vote on Friday on whether homosexuality should be legalised in the country.   

Also interesting that we did not, AFAIK anyway.
The vote on Friday is whether or not gay marriage should be allowed in Ireland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/11614313/Ireland-gay-marriage-referendum-what-you-need-to-know.html

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Joss on 20.05.15 9:29

@Amy Dean wrote:
@plebgate wrote:http://www.gotquestions.org/born-again.html

@knitted, I should think many Born Again Christians were "exposed" to religion as children either through parents or school/church, but  did not accept what they were told?

At the end of the day the judge had to uphold the law of the country - that's what it comes down to for me.

No discrimination in the workplace.

Interesting that the Irish people have a vote on Friday on whether homosexuality should be legalised in the country.   

Also interesting that we did not, AFAIK anyway.
The vote on Friday is whether or not gay marriage should be allowed in Ireland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/11614313/Ireland-gay-marriage-referendum-what-you-need-to-know.html
It is my view that who is anyone to say who can get married or not. It is ridiculous. If two consenting adults wish to be married, that is their call, IMO. Nobody should have that kind of control over another adult's life. If the churches/religions aren't comfortable with it, a couple should be able to get a marriage celebrant elsewhere. I don't know why others think it is even alright to have opinions about what other adults do, it is none of their damn business unless it harms someone.
I think it cuts both ways, that same sex couples have to respect that not everyone is ok. with their orientation, again we can't force others to feel as we do. Most people are ok. with same sex relationships, but there are quite a few that aren't, and that is ok. too.

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