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'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by MissesWillYa on 29.03.15 15:38

I'm going to give the customer the benefit of the doubt and assume that he wanted to buy a cake from this bakery because the cakes made there are better than cakes he could buy elsewhere. In the interest of fairness, I'm assuming that the cakes from this bakery are simply amazing and he just wanted an excellent cake for his celebration. 

Under this assumption, that he just likes their cake and not that he wanted to prove a point, political or otherwise, by shopping at this bakery, why not buy a cake with no message on it, then go to the grocery store and buy a tube of cake-decor icing and write the message himself?

Or am I just naive and this isn't really about delicious cake?

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'Gay cake' row - decision reserved

Post by Tony Bennett on 01.04.15 10:29

The judge in the case has taken the coward's way out and reserved her decision. This usually happens in the case of hugely controversial and politicised decisions. In such cases, it is necessary for the judge to 'take advice' from her masters -  the British establishment. Senior legal experts will advics her on the 'right' legal decision to make and help her to explain the legal reasons for it.

A classic example of this was the criminal conviction of Sunderland greengrocer Steve Thoburn for selling bananas and other produce by the pound (lb.).

He appealed against his conviction and he came up before Lord Justice Laws, who also reserved his decision.

Thoburn had a watertight case that his conviction was unlawful. The Weights and Measures Act 1985, passed under the Thatcher government, clearly made selling by the pound lawful. It therefore superseded the European Communities Act 1972, which took us into the then 'Common Market', and which has passed many law-making powers to the European Commission.

To get round this, Lord Justice Laws invented a whole new legal concept, completely alien and unknown to the British legal system. He announced that there was a 'hierarchy' of statutes, and that some were more important than others. This enabled him to claim that the European Communities Act of 1972 'trumped' the later Weights and Measures Act of 1985. Virtually every legal opinion agreed that this was nonsense. But the decision was made. Thoburn was confirmed as criminal.

Some two years later, Thoburn, exhausted by the struggle and the effect of all this legal action and disruption of his busisness, died at the young age of 39. There is a continuing campaign for him to receive a posthumous pardon.

  
Anyway, back to the 'gay cake' row, whatever decison is made, there will be repercussions.

If Gareth Lee, the man who ordered the cake, wins, then any Christian cake-maker anywhere in the U.K. would be legally bound to bake a cake with any slogan in favour of homosexual rights. A Christian printer would be forced to print literature wholly at odds with his belief that God created us man and woman - and designed a lifelong union between one and one woman as the best method for raising the next generation.

If Daniel McArthur and Ashers Bakery win, then without doubt homosexual activists will want to capitalise on their successes in achieving gay adoption and gay marriage by demanding still further changes in the law.

Final factual point: 'Gay marriage' is NOT legal in Northern Ireland.

Here is the Belfast Telegraph report yesterday:

by Deborah McAleese and Lesley-Ann McKeown – 30 March 2015

A judge has retired to consider her verdict in the case against a Christian bakery which refused to make a cake carrying a pro gay marriage slogan

Adjourning the case, district judge Isobel Brownlie told Belfast County Court she would reserve her judgement so that "full consideration" could be given to the evidence, which was presented over three days.

Judge Brownlie said: "It is not a straightforward area of the law.

"Obviously this is a case in which I propose to reserve my judgement."

The Equality Commission for Northern Ireland brought the landmark case against Ashers Bakery on behalf of a gay rights activist whose order was refused.

The family-run bakery, which delivers across the UK and Ireland, turned down the request for a cake with an image of Sesame Street puppets Bert and Ernie below the motto Support Gay Marriage.

It had been ordered for a private function marking International Day Against Homophobia last May.

Gareth Lee, a volunteer member of the LGBT advocacy group Queer Space, claimed he was left feeling like a lesser person when his order was turned down two days after it had been paid in full.

The Equality Commission, which has a statutory obligation to monitor compliance with equality laws in Northern Ireland, had initially asked for the bakery on Belfast's Royal Avenue to acknowledge it had breached legislation and offer "modest" damages to the customer.

When Ashers refused, the commission a publicly funded watchdog, proceeded with the legal action.

During the hearing at Laganside court complex, Robin Allen QC, representing Mr Lee, claimed the word 'gay' had been the at the heart of the issue.

He said Ashers' refusal was based on a political opinion opposing efforts to change the law in Northern Ireland, where same-sex marriage is banned, because it was contrary to the bakers' religious beliefs.

Mr Allen said: "It is clear that if the word gay had been replaced by the word heterosexual, the order would have been accepted.

"It is clear that if the word gay had been missing it would have been accepted."

The high-profile case has divided public opinion across Northern Ireland and beyond and the public gallery was packed with both Christian and gay rights campaigners.

It had been scheduled to finish last Friday but was extended into a third day.

The court was also told that Ashers, which has 80 employees, did not promote itself as an overtly religious business and many of their staff had no particular religious affiliation.

Mr Allen added: "Ashers did not advertise themselves as a business having religious scruples but did advertise in such a way that they did not have religious scruples."

The lawyer argued there had been a clear breach of contract and rejected claims the bakery was being asked to endorse gay marriage.

They could have "positively dissociated" themselves from the Support Gay Marriage message to be printed on the cake, he said.

Last week Karen McArthur, an Ashers director, said she had accepted the order to avoid embarrassment or confrontation but knew in her heart she would not be able to fulfil the request.

After more than 48 hours later, and following consultations with her husband Colin, also a company director, she telephoned Mr Lee informing him that his cake would not be made.

Mr Allen said: "Mrs McArthur did not feel so strongly about this that she refused to take his money and his graphic."

The Equality Commission was also described as the "guardian" of anti-discrimination laws and was duty-bound to defend them, the court was told.

Here's the latest from our reporter in court Deborah McAleese @DeborahMcAleese:


•Legal arguments have completed. Judge has reserved judgement

•Lee's barrister adds: "it's immaterial whether I believe in gay marriage or not"

•"Barristers are required by legal services act to take any brief we are competent to perform, provided it's at a fair price" Mr Allen says

•"They were capable of fulfilling this contract without themselves participating in it" Mr Lee's lawyer tells court

•"Mrs McArthur did not feel so strongly about this that she refused to take Mr Lee's money & his graphic" says Mr Allen QC

• "In this case we do not have a situation where there's a refusal to enter into a contract. We have a case where contract was accepted"

•"If Mr Lee was asked 'whose message is support gay marriage?'  It could never have been answered 'it's Ashers'" Mr Allen QC says

•"They were simply being asked to make a cake, to carry out a mechanical process", court is told

•"At no point were they being asked to support Mr Lee's message on the cake" Mr Allen QC tells court

•"It can't be more obvious" discrimination was on grounds of sexual orientation. "But for word gay this order would have been fulfilled"

•"It is the word gay in the phrase that is the course of the differential treatment" Mr Allen QC tells court

•Mr Allen QC says Ashers' claim they serve gays on a daily basis is "neither here not there ... It's the limits imposed on that relationship"

•Mr Allen QC says it was obvious that the person bringing in a graphic to Ashers in support of gay marriage was likely to be gay

•Mr Allen QC suggests Ashers should have limited their cake baking services to birthdays and sports cakes.

•Mr Allen says "there can be no doubt that what Mr Lee asked for falls within  (Ashers') terms & conditions"

•"If someone enters a contract & then says it's inconsistent with my beliefs, then the law of contract doesn't work", Mr Allen QC says

• "If Muslim printer is not prepared to print cartoon of Prophet Muhammad he must not offer services full stop printing cartoons," Mr Allen QC

•"This case is direct discrimination" Mr Lee's lawyer says

•"The Equality Commission has a statutory duty to uphold non discrimination law", Mr Lee's lawyer tells court

•Ashers' lawyer has finished summing up. Mr Lee's counsel now to submit his final arguments.

•Ashers' counsel says that if plaintiff is right an Atheist baker could not decline to make a cake with message God made the world in 6 days

•"It's an infringement of Article 9 rights to require them to promote a message with which they fundamentally disagree" Mr Scoffield QC says

•Ashers lawyer says the bakery "would be promoting the message (support gay marriage) by producing a product that promotes that message"

•"A Christian Catholic baker could not decline a cake with message calling for abortion to be legalised" Mr Scoffield QC for Ashers adds

•"If the plaintiff is right then a gay baker could not decline to make a cake with message 'gay sex is an abomination'", Ashers' lawyer says

•"The protection of one right" leads to the "total disregard of another" in this case, lawyer for Ashers tells court

•"Defendants were being asked to promote a cause against their deeply held religious beliefs" counsel for Ashers tells court

•Ashers lawyer tells court "when someone is being forced to promote a cause with which they don't agree is taking it a step too far"

•County Court judge Isobel Brownlie is coming in from holiday for today's hearing. Both sides due to make final submissions.

 

Same-sex marriage remains a deeply divisive issue in Northern Ireland and attempts to have it legalised have been repeatedly rejected by the devolved Assembly at Stormont.

The cake row has prompted a proposal to include a so-called "conscience clause" in equality legislation.

Earlier, David Scoffield QC, representing Ashers Bakery, said it was a clear "promotion" case.

He said: "This is not merely an issue of fact. The defendants subsequently would feel they were supporting the cause.

"They would be doing something that would be against their conscience."

Mr Scoffield said if the plaintiff was right it would have far reaching consequences for shop owners.

A Muslim printer could not decline to print cartoons about the prophet Mohammed; an atheist could not turn down an order claiming God made the world; a gay baker could not say no to a product saying gay sex was an abomination; and a Roman Catholic printer could not decline to make leaflets calling for the legalisation of abortion on demand, he argued.

The case has been adjourned but Judge Brownlie gave no indication as to when her verdict would be delivered.

Outside the court Daniel McArthur, general manager of Ashers, said the case had taken its toll.

He said: "The case has now concluded. We are very thankful for those who have supported us.

"It has been a stressful time for our family but most of all we are thankful God has sustained us through it all and we now await the verdict and the outcome from the judge."

Mr Lee did not comment as he left the court.

Day 2 Ashers gay cake case: 'Before God, it was something we could not do'

The Christian owners of a bakery at the centre of a landmark legal battle have said they could not "stand before God" and produce a cake supporting gay marriage.

During day two of the high-profile case between religious beliefs and equality rights, three members of the McArthur family, who own Ashers Bakery, took to the witness box to defend their decision to refuse an order for a cake from a gay activist on the basis of their Christian values.

The company's two directors, husband and wife Colin and Karen McArthur, attended court with their manager son Daniel and his wife Amy.

Sitting on the opposite side of the courtroom was Gareth Lee, the gay activist whose order for a cake with the slogan Support Gay Marriage and an image of Bert and Ernie from Sesame Street, was refused by the McArthurs.

Mr Lee launched a civil case against Ashers, with the assistance of the Equality Commission, on the basis that their refusal to produce the cake was unlawful discrimination. Taking to the witness box to give evidence, Daniel McArthur said the order was declined because as a Christian he believes that "gay marriage is contradictory to the Bible".

"We felt as Christians we could not in conscience put it on a cake. We believe the business is being given to us by God and how we use it is on our shoulders," said Daniel McArthur. He added: "We weren't doing it in defiance of the law. We don't know the ins and outs of the law. Our Christian faith is the utmost importance to us. It is how we run our entire lives and bring our families up. Before God, it is not something we could do."

Daniel McArthur, a member of Trinity Reformed Presbyterian Church, said he contacted an elder in the church to ask him for his thoughts on the matter.

His mother Karen McArthur, a company director, initially accepted the order from Mr Lee in their Belfast shop in May last year.

However, after discussions with her husband, son and daughter-in-law, she contacted Mr Lee a few days later to tell him they could not fulfil his order because they were a Christian business. Mrs McArthur told the court that even as she accepted payment from Mr Lee she "knew in my heart I would not be able to fulfil the order".

When asked why she took Mr Lee's money, signed the order and gave him a receipt when she was not planning to fulfil the order she said she "did not want to embarrass him or have a confrontation in the bakery". Mrs McArthur said her problem was with the message on the cake, because, as a Christian, she does not support gay marriage.

"We seek to live at all times in accordance with the doctrines and teachings of the Bible. I have been a born-again Christian since I was seven. I love The Lord and I seek to please him in the way I live my life," she told the court.

While Mrs McArthur knew immediately she would not be able to provide the cake to Mr Lee, her husband Colin McArthur said he struggled with the decision. "On that day I didn't make a clinical decision. I was examining my heart. I was wrestling it over in my heart and mind," he told the court.

Colin McArthur said he was made aware of the issue when his wife came home from work "deeply troubled. We discussed how we could stand before God and bake a cake like this promoting a case like this... It was a family decision," he added.

Counsel for Ashers bakery, David Scoffield QC, told the court that "as a matter of pure domestic law, properly analysed, there is no discrimination in this case."

"This is a clear case where there has been no discrimination against the plaintiff on the basis of any characteristics he possesses. The reason for declining was that they could not in conscience provide a product supporting a cause inconsistent with their sincerely held religious beliefs," Mr Scoffield said.

The case has been adjourned to Monday morning.

What they said...

Karen McArthur: director of Ashers

"I knew in my heart that I could not put that message on the cake. As a Christian, I do not support gay marriage."

Daniel McArthur: general manager of Ashers

"We felt as Christians we could not put that message on a cake. We knew the decision in our conscience as Christians was one that we had to make. That's why I said to mum regardless, as Christians we are bound by what we believe."

David Schofield: barrister representing Ashers
"This is a freedom of conscience case. The evidence from the defendants is that they seek to live at all times in accordance with the teachings of the Bible. The religious beliefs form the very core of who they are."                      

     

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Sam S on 02.04.15 7:01

Is it just me that finds it creepy and strange that the gay fella wanted to use characters from a childrens programme to promote his gay political message?

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by BlueBag on 02.04.15 7:38

Would a gay baker be expected to make a cake with "Marriage, it's a Man Woman thing" written on it?

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Richard IV on 02.04.15 8:28

@Sam S wrote:Is it just me that finds it creepy and strange that the gay fella wanted to use characters from a childrens programme to promote his gay political message?

It`s not so much creepy when it`s understood that the homosexual psyche is stuck in child mode - emotionally/sexually they never mature.

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Christian bakers, if asked, must support pro-homosexual marriage slogans on their cakes

Post by Tony Bennett on 19.05.15 13:59

All Christian bakers must now bake cakes with the slogan 'Support Gay Marriage'   >>>>

'But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female...' - Jesus Christ, in  the Bible, Mark 10 v 6


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

'Gay cake' row: Judge rules against Ashers bakery

Media caption - Robin Allen QC said his client Gareth Lee was "very glad" the case was finished

A judge has ruled that a Christian-run bakery discriminated against a gay customer by refusing to make a cake with a pro-gay marriage slogan.
Ashers Baking Company, based in County Antrim, was taken to court by gay rights activist Gareth Lee.

A Belfast judge said, as a business, Ashers was not exempt from discrimination law.

The firm's general manager said they were "extremely disappointed" by the ruling and are considering an appeal.

Damages of £500 were agreed in advance by legal teams on both sides of the dispute.

A lawyer for Mr Lee said the money would be donated to charity.

Media caption Daniel McArthur, manager of Ashers Bakery, said they were "extremely disappointed with the judgment"

The judge said Ashers is "conducting a business for profit", and it is not a religious group.

The firm was found to have discriminated against Mr Lee on the grounds of sexual orientation as well as his political beliefs.

The judge said she accepted that Ashers has "genuine and deeply held" religious views, but said the business was not above the law.

Mr Lee was assisted in taking legal action by the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland.

Speaking outside Belfast County Court after the ruling, Ashers general manager Daniel McArthur said his company was "extremely disappointed with the judgment".

"We've said from the start that our issue was with the message on the cake, not with the customer and that we didn't know what the sexual orientation of Mr Lee was, and it wasn't relevant either. We've always been happy to serve any customers who come into our shops.

"The ruling suggests that all business owners will have to be willing to promote any cause or campaign, no matter how much they disagree with it."

Media caption Michael Wardlow from the Equality Commission welcomed the judgement, calling it "significant"

Mr McArthur said he did not believe his bakery had done anything wrong and would be taking further legal advice after the ruling.

The chief commissioner of the Equality Commission, Michael Wardlow, said the ruling had "vindicated" both his organisation's decision to support Mr Lee's case and the need for the watchdog itself "to be in existence".

"We started off by saying that we believed that there had been a discriminatory act. The judge has upheld it - that both under sexual orientation regulations, political and religious opinion, that there were discriminatory acts."

Mr Wardlow added: "We're here to help people who otherwise couldn't help themselves and in this particular case it's clear that Gareth was discriminated against, the judge has made that clear."



A judge said as a business, Ashers was not exempt from discrimination law.


Reacting to the decision, Northern Ireland Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness tweeted: "Ashers bakery judgement a good result for equality, gay people have for far too long been discriminated against. We and the law on their side."

John O'Doherty, of gay rights group the Rainbow Project, said: "While sympathetic as some may be to the position in which the company finds itself, this does not change the facts of the case.

"The judge clearly articulated that this is direct discrimination for which there can be no justification."

However, DUP MLA Paul Givan, who has proposed that lawmakers in the Northern Ireland Assembly introduce a "conscience clause" as a result of the Ashers case, said many Christians would view the ruling as "an attack" on their religious convictions.

"What we cannot have is a hierarchy of rights, and today there's a clear hierarchy being established that gay rights are more important than the rights of people to hold religious beliefs," Mr Givan added.

Media caption DUP MLA Paul Givan called on the Equality Commission to apologise

Traditional Unionist Voice leader Jim Allister said it was "a dark day for justice and religious freedom in Northern Ireland".

But SDLP MLA Colum Eastwood tweeted: "Today's judgment is a welcome and re-fortifying of our hard-won equality laws."

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by ChippyM on 19.05.15 14:21

@BlueBag wrote:Would a gay baker be expected to make a cake with "Marriage, it's a Man Woman thing" written on it?

Apparently yes. This was brought up in the case according to someone involved interviewed on radio 4 30 an hour ago. The judgement was that the baker is just making the cake and not being forced to accept the message, whatever it may be.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Tony Bennett on 19.05.15 14:44

@ChippyM wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Would a gay baker be expected to make a cake with "Marriage, it's a Man Woman thing" written on it?

Apparently yes. This was brought up in the case according to someone involved interviewed on radio 4 30 an hour ago. The judgement was that the baker is just making the cake and not being forced to accept the message, whatever it may be.
Part of Daniel McArthur's evidence was that he frequenrtly objected to baking certain cakes, such as ones with obscene designs and messages.

Apparently it's OK for him to continue to refuse those requests - but he is not allowed to refuse to bake a message of support for a law which he strongly disagrees with

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by BlueBag on 19.05.15 15:03

@Tony Bennett wrote:Apparently it's OK for him to continue to refuse those requests - but he is not allowed to bake a message of support for a law which he strongly disagrees with
 
I think you meant this:

"but he MUST bake a message of support for a law which he strongly disagrees with"


It's a freedom of conscience issue, you can't force people to violate their conscience.


This is just like the old inquisition.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Joss on 19.05.15 15:17

Why don't they just have Gay bakeries where gays can go and get whatever they want, and stop forcing their stuff in people's faces that don't want to know about it? Not just gays, but anyone that wants something sexual in a cake or on it. Somebody could start up a chain of sex bakeries and cake logos that other bakers are uncomfortable with, lol.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Knitted on 19.05.15 15:47

'But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female...' - Jesus Christ, in  the Bible, Mark 10 v 6

A couple of generations ago, in the US, the christian bible was quoted ad nauseum, by whites, to justify colour prejudice in society and to block giving equal rights to non-whites. With no shame and with no hint of hypocrisy people stood up and used the bible as justification for bigotry against other Human beings that were deemed not to be in the 'in crowd'.  The bible is a ready source of words to justify any mood and provide moral backing for any purpose, no matter how distasteful. If it's not "turn the other cheek" it's "an eye for an eye". If it's not "Love thy neighbour" it's "thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them".   The following is a fantastic illustration, (by a pastor, in a US court) exposing this mercenary approach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8JsRx2lois&index=4&list=PLQhKgqW6LHlcKnp83Ts47hXWtmmKZJm7j

Personally I struggle to grasp why a supposedly omnipotent being, that can magic the cosmos out of nothing, would sit back and allow a child to die of preventable poverty every 3 seconds somewhere on the planet, and would instead be remotely bothered about what consenting adults do with each others' genitals.  Aren't there far more important things that he/she should be concerned about?

The 'anti-gay' stance of the bible is largely open to interpretation. Interestingly, this is in notable contrast to the unambiguous and explicit 'banning' orders that christians do not care one hoot about. If they did instead care about the clear and unambiguous biblical instructions contained in the bible, such as in Leviticus, then I'd 'get' where they're coming from. But to cherry pick what to get wound up about makes a mockery of their ire.  For example:  

I wonder if/when there will be a christian crusade against people that eat Sainsbury's prawn and mayo sandwiches? (Leviticus 11:10).  Will that be followed by ostracising and belittling those with round haircuts? (Leviticus 19:27).  Will it then be a crusade, with full and explicit biblical justification against clothing manufacturers that make clothes with two weaves? (Leviticus 19:19). Will they then, when they've been addressed, start marching with placards to deride divorcees? (Mark 10:8 to 10:11). 

The debate about whether or not someone should be compelled to act against their conscience is a valid one. However, the argument has to surely be rather more than simply trying to justify compliance/non compliance on the (biased) interpretation of out-dated texts that were only of relevance to small communities of misogynistic, tribalistic, Bronze Age goat-herders. 

Oh well... if all that was too heavy here's some pics of cakes that baker's DID get round ton making...
" />

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Joss on 19.05.15 16:25

I really don't care what the bible says, it is contradictory. I have no belief system, i am open to whatever resonates within me. I also don't feel anyone has the right to enforce their will on anyone else that doesn't agree to it, that's not right. If people know what their intent is, and it comes from a place that respects other's rights to be, then that is what matters. All the politically correct BS is enforcing their will onto others. It's not right and doesn't respect another's right to be who they are. "Do no harm" is a good way to be, for me anyway.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by joyce1938 on 19.05.15 16:32

Yes joss, DO NO HARM      sounds good to me too. joyce1938

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by comperedna on 19.05.15 16:42

On the contrary... I am SICK of people of any faith who believe that their religious beliefs put them above the law. Why SHOULD someone's religious sensibilities cap everything else? Rubbish! Of course they shouldn't! If you are religious keep your darned views to yourself and don't in any way inflict them on others.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by comperedna on 19.05.15 16:45

Sorry.. omit 'on the contrary'... this post was meant to follow on from an earlier one. The rest of it stands. This subject is one that really winds me up and I feel very strongly about it.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Joss on 19.05.15 17:10

@comperedna wrote:On the contrary... I am SICK of people of any faith who believe that their religious beliefs put them above the law. Why SHOULD someone's religious sensibilities cap everything else? Rubbish! Of course they shouldn't! If you are religious keep your darned views to yourself and don't in any way inflict them on others.
Religion separates and divides people, and is a cause for conflict IMO. All the different religious factions believing they are right and others people's beliefs are wrong, and each religion claiming they hold the "truth", whatever truth really is? If we have goodness and love in our heart it will lead us in the right ways and we can love and trust in ourselves and don't need to learn it by rote from any book. We just need to open our hearts and connect to the love that is always there for us to tap into, if that is what we want to choose, it is all up to us, IMO.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Richard IV on 19.05.15 17:15

Religious views aside, it is darned well bullying to force people to accept what they have a strong aversion to, whether it homosexuals, muslims, gypsies, conservatives and/or even religion.  "Do not tell me how to feel and what to think"  Our society is already far too liberal AFAIC - there has been a slippery slope into degradation over the last 40 years or so - anything goes these days and it can only end up in a Sodom and Gomorrah situation or the fall of the Roman Empire situation.  

I am not religious but I support Ashers bakery for different reasons.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Joss on 19.05.15 17:21

@Richard IV wrote:Religious views aside, it is darned well bullying to force people to accept what they have a strong aversion to, whether it homosexuals, muslims, gypsies, conservatives and/or even religion.  "Do not tell me how to feel and what to think"  Our society is already far too liberal AFAIC - there has been a slippery slope into degradation over the last 40 years or so - anything goes these days and it can only end up in a Sodom and Gomorrah situation or the fall of the Roman Empire situation.  

I am not religious but I support Ashers bakery for different reasons.
I totally agree.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Knitted on 19.05.15 17:23

The options in the original poll at the top of this thread didn't seem to 'do it' for me... so I've done me own: spin

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by plebgate on 19.05.15 17:30

People do find their religious beliefs on their own as adults - it is not always down to the parents.

edited to add. response to knitted's last post.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by lj on 19.05.15 17:36

Stop the government meddling in cases concerning personal values, morals and religion, and I am sure the world will be a better place.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by comperedna on 19.05.15 17:58

Agree with Knitted that the options in the original three for the poll were a trifle 'have you stopped beating your wife?'. His/her extra long fourth one is not perfect but it is better than the other three.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by comperedna on 19.05.15 18:01

Plebgate, Joss and lj and a fair few others have had sensible things to say on this topic. It would be easy to be depressed by people who inflict their religious views on others.

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Re: 'Homophobic bigot', Daniel McArthur, defendant in Court case (26 March 2015) brought by the Equalities Commission, explains his case to hundreds - and gets a huge round of applause

Post by Joss on 19.05.15 18:04

@lj wrote:Stop the government meddling in cases concerning personal values, morals and religion, and I am sure the world will be a better place.
Definitely.

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