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How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

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How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by Guest on 26.01.15 17:31

Methinks the Mecs are caught between a rock and a hard place:

A. She is alive. 

Then they are in a position to represent her in a court of law, provided they are her guardians. But have we not been led to believe not the Mecs but some Judge are/is her guardian, little Maddie having -unusually- been made a ward of court by request of the Mecs themselves (?) within days of her going missing? Has anyone ever seen this appointment of that Judge revoked or split between the judge and the Mecs? Delegated? 

So if the child is alive, who could represent her ab initio, from the start of the legal process in Portugal? Probably only the Judge-guardian, no? But she did not.

B. She is unfortunately dead. AR/SY ventured this thesis unopposed himself (possibility)
Then the case on her behalf falls flat on its face.

The legal term of 7 years for an assumption of her being possibly alive having lapsed in 2014, who could maintain she is legally alive? 

(yes, yes, but never mind)

-------

So, in order to be able to persuade Lady Castro y Melo they are in a position to represent little Maddie in her Courtroom, the Mecs will have to PROVE that their daughter is alive AND that Judge Hogg has empowered them -the Mecs- to conduct horribly expensive litigation on her -little Maddies- behalf and, whats more to the point, reimbursable by Judge Hogg a/o her Court (i.e. lawyers, court fees, bailiffs fees, witnesses, witnesses hotel Dom Pedro V; defendants compensation (as yet to be awarded) exetera exetara)

A tall order, wouldn't you all agree?

Any lawyers in the audience? Pray enlighten me!

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by Daryl Dixon on 26.01.15 18:09

It is my understanding that parents do not lose parental responsibility when an abducted child is made a Ward of Court. The powers of the Court are there in addition to, not instead of, the parents right to make decisions on behalf of their child.

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by Guest on 26.01.15 18:14

@Daryl Dixon wrote:It is my understanding that parents do not lose parental responsibility when an abducted child is made a Ward of Court. The powers of the Court are there in addition to, not instead of, the parents right to make decisions on behalf of their child.
Just a thought on the apparent reluctance to the WOC issue,is it possible that a medical condition would be shown if one exist's.
The paperwork wouldn't just say "I hereby give permission surely".

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by aiyoyo on 26.01.15 18:17

@Daryl Dixon wrote:It is my understanding that parents do not lose parental responsibility when an abducted child is made a Ward of Court. The powers of the Court are there in addition to, not instead of, the parents right to make decisions on behalf of their child.

Apparently not in this case. Or they would have told the Judge wouldn't they?

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by Tony Bennett on 26.01.15 18:20

@Daryl Dixon wrote:It is my understanding that parents do not lose parental responsibility when an abducted child is made a Ward of Court. The powers of the Court are there in addition to, not instead of, the parents right to make decisions on behalf of their child.
That's half correct.

But I should explain that when a child is made a Ward of Court, the High Court can SUBTRACT from a parent's responsibilities as well as add to them.

An example would be allowing a child to receive urgent medical treatment when her parents have refused it.

Wasn't Aisha King - the 5-year-old boy who the parents whisked off to Spain when the arrogant consultant refused to consider alternative medical treatment for him - made a Ward of the High Court?

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by Daryl Dixon on 26.01.15 18:23

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Daryl Dixon wrote:It is my understanding that parents do not lose parental responsibility when an abducted child is made a Ward of Court. The powers of the Court are there in addition to, not instead of, the parents right to make decisions on behalf of their child.
That's half correct.

But I should explain that when a child is made a Ward of Court, the High Court can SUBTRACT from a parent's responsibilities as well as add to them.

An example would be allowing a child to receive urgent medical treatment when her parents have refused it.

Wasn't Aisha King - the 5-year-old boy who the parents whisked off to Spain when the arrogant consultant refused to consider alternative medical treatment for him - made a Ward of the High Court?

What reason is there to believe that the High Court has subtracted anything with regard to the McCanns?

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by Guest on 26.01.15 18:33

Maddie ward of Court

Not a whisper of its consequences for five years in the Lisboa Court; the Mecs naturally remaining schtum about it

Hard to understand. Very. 

Unless dr. GA c.s were unaware of this little spanner in the works, in their favour

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by j.rob on 26.01.15 18:41

Snipped from the PJ files link below. My emphasis in bold:

The McCanns' lawyers take Leicestershire Police (LP) to the High Court to force the release of police information. However, the legal bid is withdrawn after LP agree to release 81 pieces of information out of a total of over 11,000 pieces of information held. The released information relates to phone calls made to the McCanns' solicitors and passed on to the Leicester control room at the start of the inquiry.

During the Hearing it is revealed that Madeleine became a Ward of Court, on 02 April 2008, [u]as the result of proceedings which started on 17 May 2007.

-----------

Clarence Mitchell, the McCanns’ spokesman, said: "I can state that on the instigation of Gerry and Kate McCann Madeleine is a ward of the High Court of England and Wales.

"An application has been made on Madeleine's behalf by her parents for disclosure of certain documents. The hearing is currently scheduled for July 7 in the High Court in London.

"It has been the stated intention of Gerry and Kate McCann to leave no stone unturned in doing everything necessary to search for their daughter, as would any parent.

"This application is just part of their search for Madeleine."

Madeleine's status as a ward of court has never been disclosed by her parents' who quietly made a wardship application in the High Court just weeks after she went missing.

The couple's legal team had advised them to ask for Madeleine to be made a ward of court because wardship status gives the courts certain statutory powers to act on her behalf in legal disputes such as the one which has arisen with Leicestershire police.

They still believe their daughter is alive and hope the police files may contain information which could yet lead to a breakthrough.

The case is listed to be heard in open court on July 7 in the Family Division of the High Court in London, and is expected to be contested by Leicestershire Police, according to legal sources.

Clarence Mitchell, the McCanns' spokesman, said: "Kate and Gerry have always said that they will do whatever is necessary to find Madeleine and that they will leave no stone unturned in their search for their daughter.

"They will take whatever legal steps are necessary if there is information out there that can assist their private investigation into finding Madeleine. Beyond that I cannot make any comment."

Mr Mitchell said the hearing would not involve any attempt by the McCanns to clear their names by proving they were not involved in their daughter's disappearance from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. They remain official suspects, or arguidos, in Portugal.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id130.html

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by ultimaThule on 26.01.15 18:52

@Daryl Dixon wrote:It is my understanding that parents do not lose parental responsibility when an abducted child is made a Ward of Court. The powers of the Court are there in addition to, not instead of, the parents right to make decisions on behalf of their child.

While parental responsibility is not terminated when a minor is warded, no important step can be taken in the Ward's life without the prior approval of the Court, Daryl.

In this particular case, as it would be in any other, it's abundantly apparent that the parents were obligated to seek leave from the Court before instituting a claim for damages on behalf of the Ward.  

At this point in time we don't know whether or not the McCanns sought leave from the High Court to act on the Ward's behalf in these proceedings, but we do know that if they are unable to prove that they are authorised to represent her that part of their claim which relates to Madeleine will be struck out and, presumably, this will leave them liable for a commeasurate portion of the legal costs accrued to date by the defendants.

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by Guest on 26.01.15 18:54

@Portia wrote:Maddie ward of Court

Not a whisper of its consequences for five years in the Lisboa Court; the Mecs naturally remaining schtum about it

Hard to understand. Very. 

Unless dr. GA c.s were unaware of this little spanner in the works, in their favour
It was back in Jan 2013 the WOC issue was first raised by Amaral,he or his team had to get confirmation from the British court at their expense.

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by j.rob on 26.01.15 19:05

Again, snipped from PJ files link above:

So what the Chief Constable is now voluntarily providing is the contact details and a summary of the information provided by a substantial number of people who were among the first to try to help the investigation. It is because these were on the whole people who came forward to volunteer information in the period immediately after the abduction that it is likely that the information which they provided will be most helpful.


Seems like the Mcs were so desperate to get their hands on those vital early eye-witness contact details and reports that they were obliged to make their daughter a ward of court. It was the only way they could get their hands on this vital information. 


And, of course, not forgetting that Robert Murat acted as police translator in the early eye-witness reports. So is privy to very important information. And of course will have police contacts and networks not just in Portugal but also in the UK. So it is likely that Murat had got hold of information that could be incriminating for TM, imo. 


After all, the Mcs know what happened to Madeleine, imo, and their private investigation has got nothing whatsoever to do with finding their daughter. But everything to do with covering up their tracks. So it was imperative that they got hold of all the key eye-witness information as soon as they could.


And they only way they could do that, it seems to me, was to make Madeleine a ward of court. That appears to have been the advice from their legal team?

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by Guest on 26.01.15 19:41

[quote="ultimaThule"][quote="Daryl Dixon"]It is my understanding that parents do not lose parental responsibility when an abducted child is made a Ward of Court. The powers of the Court are there in addition to, not instead of, the parents right to make decisions on behalf of their child.[/quote]

While parental responsibility is not terminated when a minor is warded, no important step can be taken in the Ward's life [i]without[/i] the prior approval of the Court, Daryl.

In this particular case, as it would be in any other, it's abundantly apparent that the parents were obligated to seek leave from the Court before instituting a claim for damages on behalf of the Ward.  

At this point in time we don't know whether or not the McCanns sought leave from the High Court to act on the Ward's behalf in these proceedings, but we do know that if they are unable to prove that they are authorised to represent her that part of their claim which relates to Madeleine will be struck out and, presumably, this will leave them liable for a commeasurate portion of the legal costs accrued to date by the defendants.[/quote]


If they lose the the case; Maddie's 1/5th of the damages awarded dr GA will be recoverable from the Mecs, on top of their own part?

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by ultimaThule on 26.01.15 20:18

The McCanns' claim of c£440,000 for the alleged harms done to Madeleine amounts to considerably more than one fifth of the total sum they are seeking to be awarded, Portia.

Unless the defendants have lodged a counterclaim, it's unlikely that they will receive any financial award in respect, or recognition, of harms done to them should the verdict be in their favour.









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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by Tony Bennett on 26.01.15 20:44

@ultimaThule wrote:The McCanns' claim of c£440,000 for the alleged harms done to Madeleine amounts to considerably more than one fifth of the total sum they are seeking to be awarded, Portia.

Unless the defendants have lodged a counterclaim, it's unlikely that they will receive any financial award in respect, or recognition, of harms done to them should the verdict be in their favour.
@ Portia  @ ultimaThule

We are edging nearer and near the truth about the value of the claim for Madeleine, which as ultimaThule correctly says is 'a lot more than a fifth' of the total claim.

To be precise about this, the total claim was for 1.2 million euros.

Of that, 500,000 euros was for damages to Madeleine - five twelfths, in fact. or in percentage terms: 41.6(recurring) per cent of the total.  

The McCanns claimed 250,000 euros for each of the twins and a modest 100,000 euros for each of themselves.

One of the interesting things is the gradual collapse in the value of the euro.

At the time they made their claim, the euro was worth 83p. That meant it was worth £996,000, nearly £1 million.

Today, however, the euro has slumped to only 74p. That has reduced the value of the McCanns' claim to £888,000 -  loss of over £100,000.

Then, of course, there is the loss due to inflation/cost of living rises during the 6 years this marathon libel action has been continuing.

That has probably reduced the value of their claim by at least a further 20%.

In cash terms, if they win on behalf of Madeleine (and this at least now looks exceedingly unlikely), they would get five twelfths of £888,000.

That is, £370,000, quite a bit less than ultimaThule's 'c£440,000'.

Now, suppose they were to be awarded anything for harm to Madeleine caused by the book. It would have to be put in trust until Madeleine was found alive.

And how likely is that? 

++++++++++++++++++


English language corner

As far as I am aware, the word 'twelfths' has the highest number of consonants together anywhere in the entire English language. Many foreigners find this word impossible to pronounce.

Some people have argued the case fopr 'rhythms' - but this incorrect, as in this particular word, 'y' acts as a vowel. 

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by Guest on 27.01.15 7:56

Thank you for explaining that, mr. Bennett. 

If I understand the Judges finding correctly so far, nothing has been proven re Maddie herself (and how could it be, I wonder)
Out goes any claim on her behalf then

Any claim; even IF it were to be established that the Mecs are entitled to claim on her behalf

What a shining example of legal malpractice. 
They should sue their lawyer(s) to get their money back, if they have paid anything so far, that is. 

I'm waiting for an 'a[b]ngstschr[/b]eeuw' (cry of anguish) from some quarters. How's that for a number of consonants?

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by PeterMac on 27.01.15 8:11

@Tony Bennett wrote:
English language corner
As far as I am aware, the word 'twelfths' has the highest number of consonants together anywhere in the entire English language. Many foreigners find this word impossible to pronounce.

Many English speakers find sixth impossible

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by plebgate on 27.01.15 9:56

There was a reason they wanted to settle out of court - possibly because they were advised about the WOC issue?

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by Joss on 27.01.15 12:44

@plebgate wrote:There was a reason they wanted to settle out of court - possibly because they were advised about the WOC issue?
Could be, or because they knew they had no hope of proving their case?

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Re: How to prove you're entitled to represent your little daughter in Court

Post by lj on 27.01.15 18:17

@Portia wrote:Thank you for explaining that, mr. Bennett. 

If I understand the Judges finding correctly so far, nothing has been proven re Maddie herself (and how could it be, I wonder)
Out goes any claim on her behalf then

Any claim; even IF it were to be established that the Mecs are entitled to claim on her behalf

What a shining example of legal malpractice. 
They should sue their lawyer(s) to get their money back, if they have paid anything so far, that is. 

I'm waiting for an 'angstschreeuw' (cry of anguish) from some quarters. How's that for a number of consonants?
And absolutely unpronounceable for most native English speakers.

Nowadays I get a sore throat when I speak Dutch too much.

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