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***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:28 pm

@G-Unit wrote:I don't see how 'show business types' have any responsibility to set an example to anyone, therefore I don't care either way what they do. As with football I would leave the decision to the employer and would not sign petitions or harass anyone.

I think  politicians, policemen & judges (to name a few off the top of my head) have such a responsibility because they do take the moral high ground so should be beyond reproach themselves.
I sort of disagree with you here.

You say leave it up to the employer. In the case of football which is a male sport and a bit of a national institution (it's the most popular national game) which charges massive amounts of money to either attend games or watch them on television there is a striking (forgive the pun) forgiveness to the 'boys will be boys' attitude.

No, no, no. If you are a convicted rapist you have no right to represent a national game in my opinion. What would happen if a convicted rapist were to be chosen to represent their country in a national sport? Do we say, he's done his time, he's rehabilitated, got on with his life and we'll be glad if he scores the winning goal for England?

To put it into perspective, do you think for instance that Oscar Pistorius should be let out on licence, do a bit of rehabilitation and represent South Africa in sport? He was found guilty of manslaughter after shooting his girlfriend through a bathroom door in his house. That's a court trial that was available for everyone to watch. Evans trial was not.

Rape is a heinous crime. It has the most devastating, life-long affect on the person who was raped. For someone to have committed that crime, serve part of a sentence and then resume their role in a national sport is not right to my mind - and those who pay the football clubs and the television companies to watch the game have made their voice heard. There are more fish in the sea than to let a convicted rapist return to celebrity football.

Just my opinion. By the way, I do like your opinions. It's an interesting debate.

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:30 pm

Thanks, aquila, I'm enjoying it too! Football is full of negative 'role models'. Another one here or there surely won't make that much difference. Take a look at this;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387588/Premiership-star-faces-rap-posing-like-gangster-waving-gun.html. 

Lee McCormick too. Mind you he was drunk. I wonder if he was sober enough to make a decision to drive?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1069770/Drink-drive-footballer-faces-just-half-years-jail-killing-young-boys-motorway-crash.html


Violent rape is a terrible crime, but a) Evans was not violent and b) The victim's tweets do not suggest great trauma to me. Does her experience compare with those poor boys who have been brave enough to come forward and tell what happened to them when they were in 'care'? Not in the slightest!!!


Tweeting that she'd 'hit big' and was going to buy a pink mini or two was perhaps a tad unwise. Still, it suggests that she quite quickly recovered from the 'pain and trauma' mentioned by ultima Thule. (the tweets are on t'internet, but I'm not giving a link because her name is there too)


Finally, football fans include lots of women too - even doctors ha ha. I have read quite a lot of comments by women who agree with me. All my opinion also, of course.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by jozi on Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:45 pm

@aquila wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:I should have been clearer .. i meant resumed his career when he'd served his sentence.
This is where it all becomes more interesting.

Is a convicted rapist entitled to re-enter the football world with all its iconic, hero worship? That's the crux of the matter.

Is a convicted rapist entitled to be rehabilitated by returning to a high profile job?

What message does that give out?
Exactly !!! Why should this rapist and he is a rapist in the most disgusting sense ( read just what he and his friends got up to on that night ).Why should he be allowed to get back into football and be a role model for my children or anybody elses ??? Please he can go and sweep the roads and earn a living but do not give him any help back into the lifestyle he was leading,he does not deserve to be idolized by anybody or any child in fact.He showed the world that he was a depraved pervert who thought he could do anything he wanted to do....cos he was a footballer ???

Pity his girlfriend is standing by him, he has probably convinced her and her father that he is innocent......blahhhhhh !!!

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by ultimaThule on Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:08 pm

It seems to me you've told it how it is, jozi thumbsup

Evans convicted himself and it is therefore remarkable that he was able to convince his fiancee and her father of his innocence..

In any event, his future father-in-law has proclaimed that Evans will 'always have a job' in one or other of the Massey business ventures and it would seem he has no need to return to the career which the judge described him as having 'thrown away'.







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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:12 pm

@ultimaThule wrote:It seems to me you've told it how it is, jozi thumbsup

Evans convicted himself and it is therefore remarkable that he was able to convince his fiancee and her father of his innocence..

In any event, his future father-in-law has proclaimed that Evans will 'always have a job' in one or other of the Massey business ventures and it would seem he has no need to return to the career which the judge described him as having 'thrown away'.






I can just imagine my Father sticking up for me being engaged to a convicted rapist and saying he will always have a job..... laughat

I'd have been locked in the tower before I'd have set foot out of the door without being put right and the fiance wouldn't have come near the house.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by plebgate on Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:34 pm

@aquila wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:It seems to me you've told it how it is, jozi thumbsup

Evans convicted himself and it is therefore remarkable that he was able to convince his fiancee and her father of his innocence..

In any event, his future father-in-law has proclaimed that Evans will 'always have a job' in one or other of the Massey business ventures and it would seem he has no need to return to the career which the judge described him as having 'thrown away'.






I can just imagine my Father sticking up for me being engaged to a convicted rapist and saying he will always have a job..... laughat

I'd have been locked in the tower before I'd have set foot out of the door without being put right and the fiance wouldn't have come near the house.
What I do not understand is whether the girlfriend and her father believe he is guilty or innocent, he still had sex with another woman.   Doesn't seem to bother them.   Maybe the girlfriend lurves him (yawn) but if I were her father I certainly would not be backing him publicly.

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:29 pm

Well! It made me uncomfortable to see how a group of activists can manipulate public opinion when I learned of this case. 


I have researched it and discovered that the law on consent to sexual intercourse is, in my opinion, a step too far. People who had no intention of using force to get sex (and didn't) can find themselves accused and convicted of rape. 


I have discovered that feminists insist on describing rape as a violent crime nevertheless, and are prepared to manipulate the figures on sex crime to get their point across. They describe all victims as traumatised with ruined lives even though some clearly are not. 


I have also discovered that people prefer to hang onto their prejudices regardless of how much research is done to try and persuade them that maybe life isn't as black and white as they think. One person retired from this discussion after being patronised for her opinion.


So. For the moment I will do no more research as no-one wants to have a reasoned debate. I may comment but if you want the truth about rape figures they are out there, as are reasonable opinions on this case and this law which I see as a kind of 'morning after pill' for some foolish women to use to rescue their reputation. 


If you stole my car I could claim on my insurance, but not if I left the keys in the ignition. Is it really too much to ask people to safeguard themselves sexually by behaving with restraint and care? Feminists say it is and that going out half-dressed and getting roaring drunk is not an invitation for someone to take advantage of you. I disagree, and have always advised my daughters accordingly.


A certain pair of doctors have argued that they did nothing wrong by leaving three small children alone in an unlocked apartment while they dined out. It wasn't their fault, it was the abductor's fault. Hmmmmmm.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:34 pm

@G-Unit wrote:Well! It made me uncomfortable to see how a group of activists can manipulate public opinion when I learned of this case. 


I have researched it and discovered that the law on consent to sexual intercourse is, in my opinion, a step too far. People who had no intention of using force to get sex (and didn't) can find themselves accused and convicted of rape. 


I have discovered that feminists insist on describing rape as a violent crime nevertheless, and are prepared to manipulate the figures on sex crime to get their point across. They describe all victims as traumatised with ruined lives even though some clearly are not. 


I have also discovered that people prefer to hang onto their prejudices regardless of how much research is done to try and persuade them that maybe life isn't as black and white as they think. One person retired from this discussion after being patronised for her opinion.


So. For the moment I will do no more research as no-one wants to have a reasoned debate. I may comment but if you want the truth about rape figures they are out there, as are reasonable opinions on this case and this law which I see as a kind of 'morning after pill' for some foolish women to use to rescue their reputation. 


If you stole my car I could claim on my insurance, but not if I left the keys in the ignition. Is it really too much to ask people to safeguard themselves sexually by behaving with restraint and care? Feminists say it is and that going out half-dressed and getting roaring drunk is not an invitation for someone to take advantage of you. I disagree, and have always advised my daughters accordingly.


A certain pair of doctors have argued that they did nothing wrong by leaving three small children alone in an unlocked apartment while they dined out. It wasn't their fault, it was the abductor's fault. Hmmmmmm.
Men and boys get raped too. You may wish to include them in your research/opinion. I think you'll find that rape is a violent crime regardless of the gender of the victim.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by plebgate on Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:38 pm

I think you have given a very well argued case G-Unit but he does still remain a convicted rapist and unless that decision is overturned then I still think he should not be put back in a position to be hero worshipped by youngsters and certainly should not be available to play for his country and given a world wide audience.

Not only does it seem that she has  not helped her case (I am going by your research) but as someone has already said, why did he decide to go to the hotel with her?

After all he has a fiance, what message does that send out to young minds?

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:48 pm

@plebgate wrote:I think you have given a very well argued case G-Unit but he does still remain a convicted rapist and unless that decision is overturned then I still think he should not be put back in a position to be hero worshipped by youngsters and certainly should not be available to play for his country and given a world wide audience.

Not only does it seem that she has  not helped her case (I am going by your research) but as someone has already said, why did he decide to go to the hotel with her?

After all he has a fiance, what message does that send out to young minds?
Thank you plebgate thumbsup

We can all think what we wish, but persuasion not threats should be used to get our point across.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:50 pm

@G-Unit wrote:
@plebgate wrote:I think you have given a very well argued case G-Unit but he does still remain a convicted rapist and unless that decision is overturned then I still think he should not be put back in a position to be hero worshipped by youngsters and certainly should not be available to play for his country and given a world wide audience.

Not only does it seem that she has  not helped her case (I am going by your research) but as someone has already said, why did he decide to go to the hotel with her?

After all he has a fiance, what message does that send out to young minds?
Thank you plebgate thumbsup

We can all think what we wish, but persuasion not threats should be used to get our point across.
Have I missed something here? I've been enjoying this debate from everyone's point of view. Where has anyone been threatened?

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:36 pm

@aquila wrote:Men and boys get raped too. You may wish to include them in your research/opinion. I think you'll find that rape is a violent crime regardless of the gender of the victim.
Read my posts! I try to refer to 'persons' when discussing victims! See the figures I quote on male rape! 

I refer to feminists because they are the main campaigners on issues of rape and I haven't see them mentioning men; sorry if I've missed it. I don't know if there are groups campaigning on behalf of male victims, haven't found any.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by The Infidel on Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:44 pm

These groups do mention males, but male rape is even more under reported. Also, the woman in the Evans case had to move 5 times due to threats and harassment from fans.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:01 pm

@G-Unit wrote:
@aquila wrote:Men and boys get raped too. You may wish to include them in your research/opinion. I think you'll find that rape is a violent crime regardless of the gender of the victim.
Read my posts! I try to refer to 'persons' when discussing victims! See the figures I quote on male rape! 

I refer to feminists because they are the main campaigners on issues of rape and I haven't see them mentioning men; sorry if I've missed it. I don't know if there are groups campaigning on behalf of male victims, haven't found any.
I'm a bit lost here. Why is a female campaigning on issues of rape a 'feminist'?

Anyway, regarding your previous post concerning threats. These are media reports which will always carry inflammatory headlines to grab attention. It doesn't alter the fact that Evans has been convicted of rape by a jury. You haven't read the transcripts of the case and neither have I. The transcripts are the important thing. With all the money at Evans disposal and the backing of his club (who have a considerable vested financial interest in him being found not guilty) to secure the best possible defence, a jury found him guilty.

He is a convicted rapist and until he has served his sentence he has to my mind no right to set foot into his football club to continue training. He hasn't served a full sentence, he's out on licence - for the crime of rape. He is appealing. If his appeal is successful then he can return to a job. In the meantime he will have to make do and keep fit some other way. If his football career has ended he should have kept his pants on and not joined his friend in something sordid in a cheap hotel with a drunk woman. His friend was cleared.

The people who pay for this footballer's wages are those who pay for tickets to watch matches and take their kids along. They are also the public who pay to watch sport on Sky and pay a television licence to watch sport on terrestrial channels. They are people who like the game of football. Football is a national sport. No-one is asking anyone to be squeaky clean to be a footballer but to be a convicted rapist and returning to the sport is going a bit far for the average bloke to accept (never mind a woman). If people who pay for this exercise their right to object what is wrong with that? I understand that perhaps you think it's some sort of nasty flak but it comes down to what he was charged with, what was presented in court and with better defence than the average Joe Blogs could afford he was found guilty by a jury.

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:15 pm

@The Infidel wrote:These groups do mention males, but male rape is even more under reported. Also, the woman in the Evans case had to move 5 times due to threats and harassment from fans.
Thanks, didn't see anything, but didn't read it too closely. Early feminism tended to reject male viewpoints entirely and I still find echoes of that in some of the campaigning websites, so I tend to see them as feminists. Also the (to me) illogical viewpoint that victims (in particular women) should not need to take any steps whatsoever to safeguard themselves.

Maybe the young woman was threatened and harassed because of her attitude. She appears to have been quite pleased with herself in her tweets (if they are genuine of course)

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by ultimaThule on Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:19 pm

@G-Unit wrote:
@aquila wrote:Men and boys get raped too. You may wish to include them in your research/opinion. I think you'll find that rape is a violent crime regardless of the gender of the victim.
Read my posts! I try to refer to 'persons' when discussing victims! See the figures I quote on male rape! 

I refer to feminists because they are the main campaigners on issues of rape and I haven't see them mentioning men; sorry if I've missed it. I don't know if there are groups campaigning on behalf of male victims, haven't found any.

There are a number of organisations dedicated to supporting male victims and survivors of rape/sexual abuse/sexual assault and the only reason I haven't referred to them here is because the subject under discussion is the crime of rape committed by a male on a female, G-Unit.

It seems you missed Survivors UK's high profile campaign in 2012 http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/feb/26/male-rape-charity-poster-campaign-six-nations and failed to see the links on the Rape Crisis website http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/malerape2.php you mentioned.

http://www.mankindcounselling.org.uk/
http://www.male-rape.org.uk/
http://www.survivorsuk.org/

Last month the government announced that £1million is being provided to these and other support organisations for male victims: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-support-for-male-rape-and-sexual-violence-victims Given the scale of the problem, it's a paltry amount. Nevertheless, it's a start and I'd like to see a campaign based on the slogan "Real Men Don't Rape".

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:27 pm

Thanks for the links ultima. Here is my first post. You may be discussing the Evans case/male on female rape, but that was not what I originally wanted to discuss.

 I have been reading up on this case due to it's prominence in the news lately. I believe that rapists should feel the full weight of the law, but this case makes me very uneasy. I think that Evans has nothing to be proud of, and he may have committed the crime as defined in law, but is that definition realistic?

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:30 pm

@G-Unit wrote:Thanks for the links ultima. Here is my first post. You may be discussing the Evans case/male on female rape, but that was not what I originally wanted to discuss.

 I have been reading up on this case due to it's prominence in the news lately. I believe that rapists should feel the full weight of the law, but this case makes me very uneasy. I think that Evans has nothing to be proud of, and he may have committed the crime as defined in law, but is that definition realistic?
All I can keep thinking is that although you have read what's in the press, you haven't read the court transcripts of this individual case.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by The Infidel on Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:32 pm

Do we know if the woman's tweets were referring to compensation from this case? I read today on the chad evans website that you should come to your own conclusions about the link between any compensation and those tweets.

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:09 pm

@The Infidel wrote:Do we know if the woman's tweets were referring to compensation from this case? I read today on the chad evans website that you should come to your own conclusions about the link between any compensation and those tweets.
I found this;
21 were arrested, and after ten pleaded guilty to breaching the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act in 2012, they were ordered to pay her compensation totalling just £6,000.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2793263/football-rapist-s-victim-hiding-two-year-internet-hate-campaign-attacker-s-supporters-break-law-reveal-twitter.html#ixzz3PDH1n7LK 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


It is alleged that she said;
she'd 'hit big' and was going to buy a pink mini or two 

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Post by G-Unit on Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:21 pm

All I can keep thinking is that although you have read what's in the press, you haven't read the court transcripts of this individual case.


Do you think there may have been force involved then aquila? The newspapers were being unusually restrained if they didn't report it then.


 The details of this case are immaterial to me anyway; it is the way the law is set up that concerns me, laying a huge responsibilty on (mostly) young daft drunk men. They are the ones who are most likely to have sex with young daft drunk women. They are also the ones who are likely to believe that yes means yes. That should bump up the conviction rates, because legally yes does not necessarily mean yes. Mind you, until young daft drunk women realise this, they might think they said yes too, so won't go to the police ha ha.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by The Infidel on Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:33 pm

The daily mail link says the people were ordered to pay her compensation because they named her, thus breaching her anonymity. IF her tweets were linked to that, I don't see any problem with that. The victims of sexual offences are entiteled to anonymity....a bunch of people breached that and such were the consequences.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:47 pm

@The Infidel wrote:The daily mail link says the people were ordered to pay her compensation because they named her, thus breaching her anonymity. IF her tweets were linked to that, I don't see any problem with that. The victims of sexual offences are entiteled to anonymity....a bunch of people breached that and such were the consequences.
How does anyone know what she Tweeted? She's been given 2 new identities sure to media intrusion in the case.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:52 pm

@G-Unit wrote:All I can keep thinking is that although you have read what's in the press, you haven't read the court transcripts of this individual case.


Do you think there may have been force involved then aquila? The newspapers were being unusually restrained if they didn't report it then.


 The details of this case are immaterial to me anyway; it is the way the law is set up that concerns me, laying a huge responsibilty on (mostly) young daft drunk men. They are the ones who are most likely to have sex with young daft drunk women. They are also the ones who are likely to believe that yes means yes. That should bump up the conviction rates, because legally yes does not necessarily mean yes. Mind you, until young daft drunk women realise this, they might think they said yes too, so won't go to the police ha ha.
How can the details of this case be immaterial to you? This case has convicted a man on the charge of rape. His appeal was denied and the reduction of his sentence was denied and yet you find the details of the case immaterial.

This man went into a hotel room and had sex with a woman after his colleague had had sex with her. Read the links that have been put up about the case by Infidel just to refresh yourself.

I'm a bit miffed. This is an individual case. I'm not sure what your point is as you are using this specific case to generalize.

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