The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hi,

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and start chatting with us!

Enjoy your day,

Jill Havern
Forum owner

***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Page 3 of 8 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by nomendelta on 16.01.15 9:31

@G-Unit wrote:

If Evans' victim had been my daughter, I would have had a lot to say to her about her behaviour that night. To avoid being burgled we lock our doors. Why can't we acknowledge that a woman's behaviour can contribute to the circumstances they find themselves in?

I think that the point is rape is rape, regardless of circumstances. Over the past few years there have been various attempts to highlight the notion that "No" means no. This is because some women find themselves in situations that they then perhaps regret getting into and have been forced into sex as a result. Yes, a lot needs to be done to encourage women not to get themselves into that predicament in the first place but that aside, no should mean no.

As to the teacher, well it's clearly just wrong and it's clearly the teacher's fault. The age of consent exists to help protect girls such as the one in this case - because it's down to the adult to say no. If it was lawfully OK for such relationships so long as the underage one did the running then we'd have a much bigger problem than we currently have.

nomendelta

Posts : 308
Reputation : 21
Join date : 2011-05-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 16.01.15 11:22

I completely agree that rape is rape and no is no. In cases of violent rape this point of view is completely valid.

The problem as I see it is this; rape is consistently referred to in the media and by campaigners as a 'violent' crime against 'vulnerable' women, and in some cases that is what it is.


When a case hangs on the notion of consent, however, yes can legally be no and mutually agreed sexual activity then becomes 'violent' rape of a 'vulnerable' victim. This seems to leave a defendant with no viable defense at all. 

I am not saying this is what happened in the Evans case, just that it could happen under the present law.

G-Unit

Posts : 312
Reputation : 54
Join date : 2014-12-29
Location : UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Julchen on 16.01.15 13:26

The more I read and think about the story the more I'm inclined to stick to my initial IMO theory.

I do admit, I have my very own views of what to think of football, footballers etc. and don't see them anywhere near the hailed heroism of role models. To put it mildly.
An Austrian singer/songwriter once put my thoughts into words "Nichts im Gehirn aber molto potente"- "no brains but ....."

Not to mention their (wannabe) WAGs.


Jule

Julchen

Posts : 128
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2012-08-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 16.01.15 14:13

Interesting thoughts on 'consent';

People talk about consent as if it's "yes" or "no" when it is in reality a complex contract in which each side ought to understand what is being offered and what can be expected. It may not be rape for a person to use their position of prestige or power over someone else to impress them into bed. But it just isn't admirable to use your advantage over someone else to get what you want. How vulnerable does a person have to be before exploiting that vulnerability to initiate sex with them becomes a sociopathic or even a psychopathic act? That seems to be to be a more useful way of starting a debate about rape than starting with "consent", an idea which sounds simple, but is actually so complicated that even those who make the law, and those who are charged with upholding it, don't seem to grasp what it means themselves.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/08/rape-consent-vulnerability-barfield-stanko

G-Unit

Posts : 312
Reputation : 54
Join date : 2014-12-29
Location : UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on 16.01.15 14:38

This is an interesting debate, however none of us have the transcript of the trial in question.

aquila

Posts : 7953
Reputation : 1174
Join date : 2011-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 16.01.15 15:20

I've no idea whether Evans was guilty or not. My interest is in two things;

Should a person be prevented from resuming their career after a spell in prison because a vociferous minority think so? I say this should not happen. If people want professional football to become a career which cannot be resumed after a conviction for rape they should try to get that into law, not hound prospective employers.

Is the legal definition of 'consent' as used in rape cases reasonable? How can it be when a 'victim' who says 'yes' could, in theory, be subsequently informed by police/courts that she actually meant 'no'?

G-Unit

Posts : 312
Reputation : 54
Join date : 2014-12-29
Location : UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on 16.01.15 16:59

@G-Unit wrote:I've no idea whether Evans was guilty or not. My interest is in two things;

Should a person be prevented from resuming their career after a spell in prison because a vociferous minority think so? I say this should not happen. If people want professional football to become a career which cannot be resumed after a conviction for rape they should try to get that into law, not hound prospective employers.

Is the legal definition of 'consent' as used in rape cases reasonable? How can it be when a 'victim' who says 'yes' could, in theory, be subsequently informed by police/courts that she actually meant 'no'?
It still comes back to the transcript of this particular/specific court case.

aquila

Posts : 7953
Reputation : 1174
Join date : 2011-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Ched evans case

Post by G-Unit on 16.01.15 21:05

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. The 2 questions I am interested in arose from the Evans case but are more general than that. I thought.

G-Unit

Posts : 312
Reputation : 54
Join date : 2014-12-29
Location : UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on 16.01.15 21:16

@G-Unit wrote:I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. The 2 questions I am interested in arose from the Evans case but are more general than that. I thought.
If the court transcripts were available (which they probably are if you pay for them) then this particular case would become more understandable.

This case went before a jury. The jury found this man guilty. This man has the right to appeal. That's about it really.

The questions you ask are hypothetical. They are not before a court and a jury, they are about whether it is this or is it that.

The CPS brought a case against this man. It was argued in Court and he was found guilty. He has the right to appeal. He was sentenced and didn't serve his time. He's out on licence.

Does he have the right to return to work in a high media exposure environment where he influences young people to aspire to becoming a celebrity footballer? I'd say no. He doesn't have that right until he can prove his innocence after being found guilty by a jury.

It's a bit of a simplistic view and I do understand what you're trying to get at.

aquila

Posts : 7953
Reputation : 1174
Join date : 2011-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by plebgate on 16.01.15 21:52

@G-Unit wrote:
@plebgate wrote:The saying mob rule in this case reallly annoys me.

Since when has the general public making their opinions known become mob rule?

RIDICULOUS nonsense IMO.
I think that would be when a section of the population intimidates others?

Ochlocracy (Greekὀχλοκρατία,okhlokratíaLatinochlocratia) or mob rule is the rule of government by mob or a mass of people, or the intimidation of legitimate authorities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy



Expressing an opinion is one thing, intimidation is another. Various football clubs were intimidated in this case IMO.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/live-oldham-athletic-deal-sign-8405041
I think a large part of the reason why the football clubs would not have him back is because their sponsors said they would withdraw.   Why would the sponsors withdraw, possibly because they know that their punters would not be best pleased to seem them backing a club who employed Evans.

I have no doubt that some clubs did receive intimidating messages from some people, but money talks and that is what I believe made the clubs think again.  Money, money, money.   IMO of course.

plebgate

Posts : 5440
Reputation : 1155
Join date : 2013-02-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 16.01.15 22:54

Yes, sponsors had the last say, I think. It will be interesting to see what happens if his conviction is eventually overturned, although IMO that is unlikely.

G-Unit

Posts : 312
Reputation : 54
Join date : 2014-12-29
Location : UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by ultimaThule on 16.01.15 23:26

@Julchen wrote:What really gets me about this case is not the question whether he is or is not guilty or to what extend the woman may be guilty, part-guilty or completely innocent, but this witch hunt.
He has done half of his sentence in prison and would not have been released  on a licence if his behaviour during his time in prison had shown any hint of him being a danger to the public or women.

IMO (ha, here is my IMO!!!!), the aim of these witch hunts is to destroy him or his life completely. Let's face it, he won't get a job as a professor at a university or become an astro scientist.....he became a footballer because that is his best asset (I could add a personal opinion....I won't). Why not let him go back to his "profession"?
I'm quite convinced whatever he is going to do, he won't be able to, in the end, because of some fanatics (all -isms are bad!! Feminism is another- ism!!).Painter? Gardener? Window cleaner? Not very likely.

Actually, the more I hear about these campaigns, the more the name Brenda comes to my mind.

(All IMO of course)
Jule

Irrespective of whatever rules apply in your neck of the woods 'west of civilisation', it is not the custom in the UK to try victims of rape, Julchen, albeit that in this particular case it appears the victim is being tried out of court by those whose prejudices have contributed to a situation where some 70-90% of rapes go unreported and 90% of reported rapes fail to result in a conviction.

The wholly unwarranted additional pain and trauma which has been inflicted on Evans' victim is due in large part to those who have mounted a systematic campaign against her including, but not limited to, his' cousin, Gemma Thomas, who breached the victim's legal right to life-long anonymity by being the first to name her on social media:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9729300/I-resent-paying-rape-victim-compensation-says-Ched-Evans-cousin.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2913029/Ched-Evans-s-true-friend-worked-closely-campaign-try-clear-repeatedly-abused-rape-victim-posted-link-website-NAMED-her.html

The more I read comments from those who place their belief in fallacies rather than facts, the more the name Brenda does come to mind and it's to be hoped that today's announcement will serve to end the victim's long ordeal and enable her to resume her life as best she can:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2913316/Rapist-footballer-Ched-Evan-s-website-probed-police-claims-identifies-victim.html

With regard to your statement that Evans "would not have been released on a licence if his behaviour during his time in prison had shown any hint of him being a danger to the public or women", incarceration in a male prison environment is not conducive to assessing whether or not offenders present a danger either to the public or to women.  However, Ministry of Justice figures show that around one in seven of the c1200 rape convictions for the year 2012 involved offenders who have been previously found guilty of sex crimes..

In a subsequent post you have said "Nobody can tell me that a girl/woman can be that naive or drunk (which IMO is a disgrace in itself, but very British) to believe two men in a hotel room would read excerpts from the Bible or explain the offside rules in football to her.. Plenty of opportunities not to go back and call a taxi instead".

For the record, the victim was sufficiently drunk to fall over in the kebab shop, which brought her to the attention of Clayton McDonald, and her drunken state was no doubt apparent to his friend Evans who stepped over her while she lay on the floor.  .

The consumption of alcohol is known to impair judgement; we don't know why the victim elected to go to the hotel with Clayton McDonald but as we do know Evans was not in evidence at that time, being engaged elsewhere due to another of his friends being involved in a fight, there is no reason to suppose that the victim was sufficiently 'naive' as to go to a hotel room with two men who were strangers to her.

If Evans finds himself unable to return professional football it will not only be a triumph for common sense, it will also prevent any allegation to the effect that having a convicted rapist represent his country in a sporting endeavour is, to use your term, 'very British'.

ultimaThule

Posts : 3355
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2013-09-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on 16.01.15 23:43

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Julchen wrote:What really gets me about this case is not the question whether he is or is not guilty or to what extend the woman may be guilty, part-guilty or completely innocent, but this witch hunt.
He has done half of his sentence in prison and would not have been released  on a licence if his behaviour during his time in prison had shown any hint of him being a danger to the public or women.

IMO (ha, here is my IMO!!!!), the aim of these witch hunts is to destroy him or his life completely. Let's face it, he won't get a job as a professor at a university or become an astro scientist.....he became a footballer because that is his best asset (I could add a personal opinion....I won't). Why not let him go back to his "profession"?
I'm quite convinced whatever he is going to do, he won't be able to, in the end, because of some fanatics (all -isms are bad!! Feminism is another- ism!!).Painter? Gardener? Window cleaner? Not very likely.

Actually, the more I hear about these campaigns, the more the name Brenda comes to my mind.

(All IMO of course)
Jule

Irrespective of whatever rules apply in your neck of the woods 'west of civilisation', it is not the custom in the UK to try victims of rape, Julchen, albeit that in this particular case it appears the victim is being tried out of court by those whose prejudices have contributed to a situation where some 70-90% of rapes go unreported and 90% of reported rapes fail to result in a conviction.

The wholly unwarranted additional pain and trauma which has been inflicted on Evans' victim is due in large part to those who have mounted a systematic campaign against her including, but not limited to, his' cousin, Gemma Thomas, who breached the victim's legal right to life-long anonymity by being the first to name her on social media:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9729300/I-resent-paying-rape-victim-compensation-says-Ched-Evans-cousin.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2913029/Ched-Evans-s-true-friend-worked-closely-campaign-try-clear-repeatedly-abused-rape-victim-posted-link-website-NAMED-her.html

The more I read comments from those who place their belief in fallacies rather than facts, the more the name Brenda does come to mind and it's to be hoped that today's announcement will serve to end the victim's long ordeal and enable her to resume her life as best she can:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2913316/Rapist-footballer-Ched-Evan-s-website-probed-police-claims-identifies-victim.html

With regard to your statement that Evans "would not have been released on a licence if his behaviour during his time in prison had shown any hint of him being a danger to the public or women", incarceration in a male prison environment is not conducive to assessing whether or not offenders present a danger either to the public or to women.  However, Ministry of Justice figures show that around one in seven of the c1200 rape convictions for the year 2012 involved offenders who have been previously found guilty of sex crimes..

In a subsequent post you have said "Nobody can tell me that a girl/woman can be that naive or drunk (which IMO is a disgrace in itself, but very British) to believe two men in a hotel room would read excerpts from the Bible or explain the offside rules in football to her.. Plenty of opportunities not to go back and call a taxi instead".

For the record, the victim was sufficiently drunk to fall over in the kebab shop, which brought her to the attention of Clayton McDonald, and her drunken state was no doubt apparent to his friend Evans who stepped over her while she lay on the floor.  .

The consumption of alcohol is known to impair judgement; we don't know why the victim elected to go to the hotel with Clayton McDonald but as we do know Evans was not in evidence at that time, being engaged elsewhere due to another of his friends being involved in a fight, there is no reason to suppose that the victim was sufficiently 'naive' as to go to a hotel room with two men who were strangers to her.

If Evans finds himself unable to return professional football it will not only be a triumph for common sense, it will also prevent any allegation to the effect that having a convicted rapist represent his country in a sporting endeavour is, to use your term, 'very British'.
Yay uT. Good post.

aquila

Posts : 7953
Reputation : 1174
Join date : 2011-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by ultimaThule on 17.01.15 1:15

Thank you for your comment, aquila, and also for affording me the opportunity to reproduce two common myths and two facts from http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/commonmyths2.php which have particular relevance to Evans' case:

Myth The woman was drunk / took drugs / was hitch hiking / wore tight clothes / worked in the sex industry / seduced him / probably got what she was asking for.

Fact If a person is unconscious or their judgement is impaired by alcohol or drugs, legally they are unable to give consent. Having non-consensual sex with a person who is intoxicated is rape.

Rapists use a variety of excuses to attempt to discredit the women they rape and to justify their crimes. But no-one asks or deserves to be raped or sexually assaulted and 100% of the responsibility for any act of sexual violence lies with its perpetrator.

Media often refer to women in the 'roles' that they have - 'young mum', 'grandmother', 'doctor's wife', 'prostitute' etc. - and describe arbitrary factors like what she was wearing or how she'd been behaving when she was sexually assaulted. The implication is that some women are more 'innocent' victims than others, that some are more worthy of sympathy, or that some women are partly to blame for their experience of sexual violence.

The rules imposed on women's behaviour allow rapists to shift the responsibility for rape onto women wherever possible, so that rapists are sometimes portrayed as victims of malicious allegations, carelessness or stupidity. There is no other crime in which so much effort is expended to make the victim appear responsible.

Myth
Once a man is sexually aroused he cannot help himself. He has to have sex.

Fact Most rapes are premeditated i.e. they are either wholly or partially planned in advance. Rapes committed by more than one perpetrator are always planned. Men can quite easily control their urges to have sex - they do not need to rape a woman to satisfy them. Rape is an act of violence - not sexual gratification. Men who rape or sexually assault do so to dominate, violate and control.

ultimaThule

Posts : 3355
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2013-09-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Julchen on 17.01.15 11:19

"West of civilisation" in my case is Swansea where there is so much depraved stuff is going on, especially during the weekend that this can only strengthen my very negative view of Britain and its indigenous population.

BTW: off I am. Won't see me again.

Jule

Julchen

Posts : 128
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2012-08-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on 17.01.15 11:24

@Julchen wrote:"West of civilisation" in my case is Swansea where there is so much depraved stuff is going on, especially during the weekend that this can only strengthen my very negative view of Britain and its indigenous population.

BTW: off I am. Won't see me again.

Jule
Don't go Jule. You're entitled to your opinion. As for Swansea, I have great memories of the place. It's not how it used to be but where is?

aquila

Posts : 7953
Reputation : 1174
Join date : 2011-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Guest on 17.01.15 12:04

@Julchen wrote:"West of civilisation" in my case is Swansea where there is so much depraved stuff is going on, especially during the weekend that this can only strengthen my very negative view of Britain and its indigenous population.

BTW: off I am. Won't see me again.

Jule
Jule, I don't know if anything's been said to upset you, I haven't been following this topic much, but I hope you don't leave the forum.

I believe in the rehabilitation of offenders and that Evans should be free to resume his football career.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on 17.01.15 12:14

Ladyinred wrote:
@Julchen wrote:"West of civilisation" in my case is Swansea where there is so much depraved stuff is going on, especially during the weekend that this can only strengthen my very negative view of Britain and its indigenous population.

BTW: off I am. Won't see me again.

Jule
Jule, I don't know if anything's been said to upset you, I haven't been following this topic much, but I hope you don't leave the forum.

I believe in the rehabilitation of offenders and that Evans should be free to resume his football career.
It's an interesting topic.

Ladyinred, I believe that until Evans has expended his sentence (he's out on licence) or has won some sort of appeal then he is not entitled to resume his football or any other career. He's out of prison, having served part of his sentence for the crime of rape.

Debating whether he raped a woman or didn't is contentious. A jury found him guilty. There are court transcripts for anyone willing to pay for them and study what actually was presented in court. It's also worth noting that as a footballer he had more money than your average Joe Blogs to buy the best defence and yet he was still convicted.

aquila

Posts : 7953
Reputation : 1174
Join date : 2011-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Guest on 17.01.15 12:20

I should have been clearer .. i meant resumed his career when he'd served his sentence.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by aquila on 17.01.15 12:30

Ladyinred wrote:I should have been clearer .. i meant resumed his career when he'd served his sentence.
This is where it all becomes more interesting.

Is a convicted rapist entitled to re-enter the football world with all its iconic, hero worship? That's the crux of the matter.

Is a convicted rapist entitled to be rehabilitated by returning to a high profile job?

What message does that give out?

aquila

Posts : 7953
Reputation : 1174
Join date : 2011-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 17.01.15 13:39

Take no notice, Julchen. Your point of view is just as valid as anyone else's. Love it that you're in Swansea! My grandson lives in Clydach. We combine visits to them with time on the Gower; fabulous.


Now, back to the discussion. You are quite correct about witch hunts - it is wrong to subject anyone to this kind of campaign whoever they are. I will stick my neck out though and say the girl didn't help herself! Tweeting that she'd 'hit big' and was going to buy a pink mini or two was perhaps a tad unwise. Still, it suggests that she quite quickly recovered from the 'pain and trauma' mentioned by ultima Thule. (the tweets are on t'internet, but I'm not giving a link because her name is there too)


It is also correct that the UK has big problems with alcohol. Our town centres are full of drunks at the weekend tying up police resources and we all know of the headlines about drunken Brits abroad lol. 


These are interesting figures ultima; 'some 70-90% of rapes go unreported and 90% of reported rapes fail to result in a conviction.' I wonder where they came from? If it was here; 
 http://www.surrey.ac.uk/mediacentre/press/2009/16532_between_7090_rapes_thought_to_go_unreported_and_94_of_reported_cases_dont_end_in_a_conviction.htm


then it says '70-90% of rapes thought to go unreported', but hey, it sounds better without the qualifier, doesn't it? My 'common sense' says that has to be a guess, unless they contacted every man, woman and child in Britain.


Anti-rape campaigners are sometimes so keen to enlighten women about their rights that they can be misleading. The rape crisis website you quoted says;


Fact If a person is unconscious or their judgement is impaired by alcohol or drugs, legally they are unable to give consent. Having non-consensual sex with a person who is intoxicated is rape.


Not true - impairment by alcohol does not mean that people are unable to consent. The way this is phrased having sex with someone who is drunk is automatically rape!!!


The law says that evidence must be produced demonstrating that the drink or drugs taken made the victim incapable of consent - it's not automatic as implied above.


Lack of consent may be demonstrated by:


  • The complainant's assertion of force or threats;
  • Evidence that by reason of drink, drugs, sleep, age or mental disability the complainant was unaware of what was occurring and/ or incapable of giving valid consent; or
  • Evidence that the complainant was deceived as to the identity of the person with whom (s)he had intercourse.

A boy or girl under the age of 16 cannot consent in law, (Archbold 2004, 20-152).http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/


Finally, if we hound people so much that they cannot be rehabilitated what sort of message does that give out? That the population of the UK is intolerant and determined to punish offenders over and above the legal provisions! The 'isms' want us to believe that all rape is the same. It is always violent and all victims are left traumatised and in pain. Well that's not true IMO.

G-Unit

Posts : 312
Reputation : 54
Join date : 2014-12-29
Location : UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Guest on 17.01.15 17:37

@aquila wrote:
@Julchen wrote:"West of civilisation" in my case is Swansea where there is so much depraved stuff is going on, especially during the weekend that this can only strengthen my very negative view of Britain and its indigenous population.

BTW: off I am. Won't see me again.

Jule
Don't go Jule. You're entitled to your opinion. As for Swansea, I have great memories of the place. It's not how it used to be but where is?

For some reason, I thought that Julchen was posting from Germany - perhaps he/she is German.  I think at weekends most city centres in the UK are awful places, full of drunks, violence, vomit and half-naked women in freezing weather which place huge demands on the police, ambulance service and A&Es.  I place much of the blame on local authorities who agree to licence applications, despite opposition from the police.  IMO.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by The Infidel on 17.01.15 17:45

UltimaThule, you make the most sense! 

Would the other posters be happy for a 'rehabilitated' Rolf Harris to resume his life as a TV personality? Or any of the show biz types found guilty?

The Infidel

Posts : 16
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-10-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 17.01.15 18:26

I don't see how 'show business types' have any responsibility to set an example to anyone, therefore I don't care either way what they do. As with football I would leave the decision to the employer and would not sign petitions or harass anyone.

I think  politicians, policemen & judges (to name a few off the top of my head) have such a responsibility because they do take the moral high ground so should be beyond reproach themselves.

G-Unit

Posts : 312
Reputation : 54
Join date : 2014-12-29
Location : UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 18.01.15 15:05

Here are some figures which are as accurate as I can make them. The efforts to encourage people to report rape have been successful. In 2002/3  12,295 were reported to police in England and Wales. In 2013/4  20,725 were reported. Please note that these figures do not refer only to females. 
http://www.statista.com/statistics/283100/recorded-rape-offences-in-england-and-wales-uk-y-on-y/

2014
Rape of a female aged 16 or over 12,299
Rape of a female child under 16 3,396
Rape of a female child under 13 2,833
Rape of a male aged 16 or over 662
Rape of a male child under 16 415
Rape of a male child under 13 1,120

In part due to Operation Yewtree, both historical and current figures have risen. According to ONS, there were increases in reporting between 2013 and 2014 as follows.

Females 16 plus up 3%               Males 16 plus up 21%
Females below 16 up 11%           Males below 16 up 59%
Females below 13 up 15%           Males below 13 up 47%
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/period-ending-june-2013/info-sexual-offenses.html

I am looking for conviction rates now.....more difficult because they often take a long time to get to court.

G-Unit

Posts : 312
Reputation : 54
Join date : 2014-12-29
Location : UK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 8 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum