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***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

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***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by G-Unit on 11.01.15 15:15

I have been reading up on this case due to it's prominence in the news lately. I believe that rapists should feel the full weight of the law, but this case makes me very uneasy. I think that Evans has nothing to be proud of, and he may have committed the crime as defined in law, but is that definition realistic?

http://chedevans.com/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10319902/Did-you-know-the-legal-definition-of-rape-and-consent-is-changing-Heres-how.html

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by comperedna on 11.01.15 17:34

People keep rabbitting on that the man has served his time and he should now be allowed to take up his profession again. He has NOT served his time. He has served HALF of his time, more or less, and he is out on licence. That's for one thing. Another is that he has an appeal pending. If he wins his appeal, which is evidently for whatever reason being expedited, the whole position changes, and he may well be taken back by his club. Until then he should shut up, keep fit and in training by himself, and do something useful with his life.

There are lots of professions which you may not take up again if you are on the sex offenders register, as he currently is (like teaching). We have the rule of law in this country, and if his appeal is granted, and he is vindicated, he comes off the register and the young children who worship footballers can be told that it was all a mistake and the conviction has been quashed.

I do not think those who clamour for him to apologise for the rape are correct, as he believes he did not commit the offence. I think he has done as much as he can in that way by saying he wishes the whole situation had not arisen and that he is sorry that the woman concerned was also devastated by it.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by comperedna on 11.01.15 17:35

The woman was said to have been very drunk and so could not possibly have given her consent.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by tungsten tel on 11.01.15 17:44

@comperedna wrote:The woman was said to have been very drunk and so could not possibly have given her consent.
Not followed this case at all but I'm sure I saw a pic of her returning to the hotel after fetching a pizza . Cant swear on it .

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Ched evans case

Post by G-Unit on 11.01.15 18:20

@tungsten tel wrote:
@comperedna wrote:The woman was said to have been very drunk and so could not possibly have given her consent.
Not followed this case at all but I'm sure I saw a pic of her returning to the hotel after fetching a pizza . Cant swear on it .
I know that he was found guilty, and I don't think his behaviour was excusable. If the woman was too drunk to give her consent, however, why was Evans' mate who went with her before Evans, found not guilty? 

They have the CCTV footage of the woman arriving at the hotel on Evans' website - see my link above


My problem is with the legal definition of both 'rape' and 'consent', actually. See my other link. My reading of it is that anyone who has sexual relations should be very careful as the definitions are so broad.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by comperedna on 11.01.15 18:27

[list defaultattr=]
[*]I do agree that there are worse and less bad types of the offence (sex without consent). The length of the sentence is there to reflect this: eg the rare case of the stranger who jumps out of the bushes and beats up a woman and cuts her with a knife and so on, gets many years, and a prat who doesn't do the all important bit of checking it is AOK, perhaps because he himself is drunk, gets a minimal sentence like this chap did. If Evans is correct and she did consent, then the appeal should deal with this.
[/list]

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by comperedna on 11.01.15 18:34

"My reading of it is that anyone who has sexual relations should be very careful as the definitions are so broad."




I think you are quite correct in your reading of it, but I don't find it a problem.  I guess you may be in the US.  Here in the UK we have an institution called 'Freshers Week' at university where there are parties galore, and youngsters unused to drink, and in many cases sex too, are in many institutions given serious warning talks beforehand about misunderstandings, and what can happen if they do NOT check whether sex is OK, and what counts as 'consent', and how this may and should be expressed, just as they are given the lecture on contraception and the clap and other stuff. This man was NOT an inexperienced teenager.

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 11.01.15 19:06

I am British, female and old enough to remember when women often got the blame if they were raped. Feminism changed that for the better.

Maybe I have been brainwashed by our patriarchal society, but I believe I'm able to take care of myself and make my own decisions, even when I have had a drink. I find it somewhat patronising when the law says a woman is incapable of making a decision when drunk. 

For me, this law enables women who regret a stupid drunken decision to cry rape in order to make themselves look better. I know this happens as it has happened to a male member of my family (and the woman was not drunk, she just realised her friends were slightly disgusted by her behaviour). Luckily for him the police were contacted by her own friends who showed the police texts where she was bragging about her exploits!

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Julchen on 11.01.15 20:54

I have a probably very unpopular view of this story, hence a big IMO!!!:

Quite an unrelated (or not, in both cases we are talking about girls and footballers) case first:
Remember Imogen Thomas and Ryan Giggs?
Well, she fell pregnant, had her name all over the newpapers etc. and probably has earned nice money since.

Being asked what they want to make of their lives most young Brits of a certain background will answer "I want to become famous and earn lots and lots of money." Many TV programs thrive on this mindset. Some study came out the other week claiming that the best thing women can do is to find themselves a footballer.

Here is my unpleasant IMO view:
Had this girl here fallen pregnant, the story would probably have gone in a similar way as above. Well, she didn't. And the story went the way it did.

Nobody can tell me that a girl/woman can be that naive or drunk (which IMO is a disgrace in itself, but very British) to believe two men in a hotel room would read excerpts from the Bible or explain the offside rules in football to her.....
Plenty of opportunities not to go back and call a taxi instead.

And again, my probably nasty, completely untrue IMO view.

Jule

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 11.01.15 21:39

You cynic you  laughat  The woman in question does seem to have deleted some rather dodgy tweets, however.

This law seems to assume that women are innocent, honourable and truthful.

Feminists say that women have the right to get rolling drunk, pick up a man and go to a hotel room with them for no sexual reason at all. They say that women are preyed upon by men and their manner of dress, drunken or coarse behaviour can't be construed as 'asking for it'

We all judge people by their behaviour though. If I were a man I would probably assume that a woman who let herself be picked up in the early hours and taken back to a hotel room by a stranger was 'up for it'. I'm a woman and I think that actually!

I think that women should behave in such a way that no-one can mistake what they want. When I was younger I wouldn't invite friends of my husband into the house if he wasn't there, for example.

All my own opinion, of course.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by PeterMac on 11.01.15 21:53

He was found "legally guilty" by a judge and Jury.
The judge decided that there was sufficient evidence to allow the jury to decide the issues, , , and the Jury decided that he was Guilty as charged.
He is therefore, in the English System Guilty

Whether this is the best, or even a good system, whether the jury got it right or not, is of course another matter entirely.
But he was found Guilty.
Until and unless his conviction is overturned, that remains the situation.
_ _ _ _ _ _
Just as an aside, the dogs found evidence of Human Cadaverine and blood.
Whether that was accurate, or whether it is subject to debate, is of course another matter.

But until that can be proved, the dogs found Human cadaverine and blood. And that remains the situation.

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 11.01.15 22:03

You are completely correct, of course, PeterMac. Evans was found guilty according to the law, there is no doubt about that. I admit that the actual law is what I have a problem with, not the verdict in the Evans case.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by comperedna on 12.01.15 13:14

It may be slightly irrelevant to the thread, G Unit, but I apologise for more or less assuming you were not in the UK and not female. :-)

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 12.01.15 14:02

No problem comperedna. I would be interested to know how universities explain 'consent' to their students? The definition seems so wide in law that my advice to any young men would be COLD SHOWERS lol


The CPS guidance on what the courts need to consider is;

  • Whether a complainant had the capacity (i.e. the age and understanding) to make a choice about whether or not to take part in the sexual activity at the time in question.


  • Whether he or she was in a position to make that choice freely, and was not constrained in any way. Assuming that the complainant had both the freedom and capacity to consent, the crucial question is whether the complainant agrees to the activity by choice.



The question of capacity to consent is particularly relevant when a complainant is intoxicated by alcohol or affected by drugs




Professor John Birch said in his evidence in the Evans case;
The fact that she has no memory of events does not mean that she was not able to participate in a meaningful way in events at that time, and I am quite clear that this includes the ability to make informed decisions in relation to consent. Acute alcohol intoxication may lead to substantial disinhibition and that may in itself lead to unwise judgments being made. But the fact that she does no longer remember having made a decision is a failure of the memory process and not of the decision-making process. Evidence of memory loss as a result of anterior-grade amnesia does not in itself prove that she lacked the capacity to consent."
My underlining above. 

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Julchen on 12.01.15 17:01

Men are monsters and women are suppressed angels......

The poor man who will one day hit upon my younger one. She's only 7 and not much of an angel left. Already pushing people around...

Have a look at these angels and tell me how wrong I am and how innocent they are.

http://www.southwales-eveningpost.co.uk/pictures/woman-dragging-plant-carried-completely-floored-s/pictures-25782885-detail/pictures.html#9


Jule (the IMO! freak)

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 12.01.15 18:46

Stay away from 'em lads lol

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by PeterMac on 12.01.15 22:20

I was once asked by an English barrister ( a black man, since you ask) in the presence of a State prosecutrix from Baden-Württemberg, and a DCI (equivalent) from the BKA -
who were doing Rogatories, with me as the 'inquisitor in chief' - ( and I took them round the back of the police station to the Crown court to see what happened, )
whether I preferred the German Inquisitorial system, or the English Adversarial system.

My reply was - obviously ! ! !
If I was Guilty, I would prefer the English accusatorial system
If I was innocent I would prefer an inquisitorial system.

Guilt Demands the right of SILENCE.
Innocence Demands the right to be heard
.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Knitted on 12.01.15 22:34

@PeterMac wrote:Snipped

Guilt Demands the right of SILENCE.
Innocence Demands the right to be heard
.
Thanks for the tip-off... Rest assured if I ever run the risk of being implicated in the demise of one of my kids, then I now know to quickly get away from being in any country with an 'inquisitorial system' ...and to high-tail it to somewhere with an 'accusatorial system' (maybe even one with a lucrative trade in libel cases for good measure?  God forbid if anyone  asks me back to do a helpful, constructive, and innocuous,  're-enactment'  :0

Out of interest what system do they operate in Portugal? And what do they operate in, say, the UK?

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by ultimaThule on 12.01.15 22:38

You've answered your own question, Knitted smilie

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Knitted on 12.01.15 22:50

@ultimaThule wrote:You've answered your own question, Knitted smilie
Aha... but without this forum the likes of TM wouldn't have received such good advice!!...and not being implicated no one would have bothered to have 'advised them' as such!

I mean, it's not as if they would have had access to such learned legal types, nor Establishment figures who knew the basics, in those Healy...sorry...'Heady'... days of perpetual 'family holiday' that we all recall as the 'Summer of '07'.  

Shame on me for my silly logic!!

Err... Hang on... I've just looked deeper into the 'Fund accounts' thread... *gulps*

:0

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Ched Evans case

Post by G-Unit on 13.01.15 7:09

A good analysis indeed. I'm not the only one who thinks this case stinks then.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 13.01.15 7:24

This whole case disturbs me for a few reasons. Not least because of the public furore, and the media coverage, social media frenzy and so on, I think this will have a detrimental effect of future rape investigations and trials. Rape is already a very difficult crime to deal with given the broad range of circumstances that lead to accusations and trials and I fear this will muddy perceptions and attitudes in the future. 

The media needs to take a long hard look at it's conduct in reporting such cases because it is too serious a crime to "mess-up". A frenzy such as this being played out in the papers and Twitter can only be a bad thing regarding such a sensitive and difficult subject.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 13.01.15 10:32

This case in the public spotlight for one reason and one reason alone, the Evans publicity juggernaut. A juggernaut that is being financed by his incredibly rich father-in-law to be, the father of the girl who began her relationship with Evans 2 years before his rape of a 19 year old woman, a man who allegedly offered Oldham Athletic £2m to offer him a contract . Read into that what you will, but as per another thread on here, always follow the money.

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Re: ***NEW 14.10.16 - CHED EVANS NOT GUILTY*** (was: CHED EVANS WINS APPEAL 21.4.16 RAPE CONVICTION QUASHED*** (was: Ched Evans case))

Post by BlueBag on 13.01.15 12:09

If someone is gives consent whilst under the influence of alcohol what is the alcohol limit before "it wasn't really consent" kicks in?

How does the receiver of the consent know they are over the limit?

Is it really the fault of the consent receiver that the consent giver is not totally in control but walking and talking and seems ok?

How does anyone really know whether the giver of the consent really remembers anything or not?

I really don't know how a jury found him guilty. It's just a quagmire.

Reprehensible behavior on both sides.

Don't get drunk and do things you regret later. It was your decision to get drunk.

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