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MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by aquila on 12.01.15 10:30

Well apart from myself being called an arsehole with anger issues and in need of medication by an (allegedly) French born muslim living in UK, Tony and PeterMac being abused by the same person, I think there's nowt much wrong with the temperament of the forum in the spirit of debate.

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by Joss on 12.01.15 10:44

@aquila wrote:Well apart from myself being called an arsehole with anger issues and in need of medication by a French born muslim living in UK, Tony and PeterMac being abused by the same person, I think there's nowt much wrong with the temperament of the forum in the spirit of debate.
Well i guess its hard for some people not to keep their cool, smilie But i agree its a good debate, no one is really right or wrong, just depends on our perception and pov. It is also a heated topic and discussing politics & religion usually is as we know.

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by aiyoyo on 12.01.15 10:53

@Joss wrote:Is there any proof or evidence that who was responsible for these shootings were in fact Muslims? I haven't seen the evidence yet, they are apparently dead, and its not like they are going to get a trial.

Are you suggesting conspiracy, or that the French Goverment put out false information?  If the latter -  to mislead who, and for what purpose, in your view?

What evidence do you need?  From their pictures do you not think they look Muslims ? Do you think they may be Christians or they may be Jews ? Not saying they have Islam stamped on their faces, but their origins is perhaps a give away dont you think?
Do you think the press and media circulate pictures not of the murderers ?  You believe they were in a conspiracy with the Goverment to deceive the world? 

That aside, the world and its dogs are told they were French-born Muslims.  One of them had a jihadist (IIRC) related crime record, and, both of them were on the US and Europe "no fly"  list.  Meaning they were known to the Intelligence Services.  The style of execution was not that of amateurs on spur of the moment killing. They were heavily armed suggesting financed by a group/organisation.  Even veterans can blunder in a get-away when the shooting of the gendarme was done in the public area where other elements were there, especially not forgetting the car was driven by the 18-year old (relative), not veterans like the other two.

I also wish there be a trial as I would like to hear how their barbaric act will be defended but they were too dangerous to arrest alive if they did not kill themselves first.  80,000 or more (again iirc) police members were deployed for the showdown  - that's how dangerous they were. It was them or more innocents at risk. Taking them out was inevitable.  

And you go on about needing more evidence, as if suggesting the French government misled the world or were covering something.  As if no Intelligence Service of other country would see through the French Government's lie (if that).  And as if suggesting other country Intelligence Service was in with the French Government in the conspiracy. Maybe you think the French Intelligence Service was hiding the truth from the French Government and the world?

Honestly, some people are so in denial.  It's probably fair to say we are not told everything but I would like to believe we are told at least the basic facts. Or am I being naive here?

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by aquila on 12.01.15 10:58

I am so very sad to see slaughter on the streets. For anyone to ignore this violence is caused by Islamist extemists is wrong. They are not doing it because they are murderers. They are doing it because they are Islamic extemists. They are affiliated to no other religion/non religion.

Some on the forum will say it's a conspiracy theory and they are in the 'pay' of the powers that be. I don't believe that.

Some on the forum will say it's to cover up things and gain ground other things. I don't believe that.

Some will say 'Islamaphobia'.

Well.....there's some mileage in that. Just turn it on its head....muslims who won't speak out are Islamaphobic. Terrified to speak against their faith? Terrified to question their right to do that?

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by Joss on 12.01.15 11:31

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Joss wrote:Is there any proof or evidence that who was responsible for these shootings were in fact Muslims? I haven't seen the evidence yet, they are apparently dead, and its not like they are going to get a trial.

Are you suggesting conspiracy, or that the French Goverment put out false information?  If the latter -  to mislead who, and for what purpose, in your view?

What evidence do you need?  From their pictures do you not think they look Muslims ? Do you think they may be Christians or they may be Jews ? Not saying they have Islam stamped on their faces, but their origins is perhaps a give away dont you think?
Do you think the press and media circulate pictures not of the murderers ?  You believe they were in a conspiracy with the Goverment to deceive the world? 

That aside, the world and its dogs are told they were French-born Muslims.  One of them had a jihadist (IIRC) related crime record, and, both of them were on the US and Europe "no fly"  list.  Meaning they were known to the Intelligence Services.  The style of execution was not that of amateurs on spur of the moment killing. They were heavily armed suggesting financed by a group/organisation.  Even veterans can blunder in a get-away when the shooting of the gendarme was done in the public area where other elements were there, especially not forgetting the car was driven by the 18-year old (relative), not veterans like the other two.

I also wish there be a trial as I would like to hear how their barbaric act will be defended but they were too dangerous to arrest alive if they did not kill themselves first.  80,000 or more (again iirc) police members were deployed for the showdown  - that's how dangerous they were. It was them or more innocents at risk. Taking them out was inevitable.  

And you go on about needing more evidence, as if suggesting the French government misled the world or were covering something.  As if no Intelligence Service of other country would see through the French Government's lie (if that).  And as if suggesting other country Intelligence Service was in with the French Government in the conspiracy. Maybe you think the French Intelligence Service was hiding the truth from the French Government and the world?

Honestly, some people are so in denial.  It's probably fair to say we are not told everything but I would like to believe we are told at least the basic facts. Or am I being naive here?
I'm glad you trust your Govt.'s and MSM because i sure as hell don't.

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by tiny on 12.01.15 11:37

Me neither,Joss

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by Joss on 12.01.15 11:42

Does anyone here practice the Islamic/Muslim faith? I don't, so how can anyone really know for sure what those people believe? We are only giving an opinion from what scource? Because from my own research into it, it really isn't that much different from most other faiths.

Common Misconceptions about Muslims

1. Muslims live in the Middle East.  
Most Muslims (one billion) live in Asia, predominately in south and southeast Asia. More than 300 million Muslims live in Sub-Saharan Africa as well.
The four largest Muslim populations are in Indonesia, Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh, each home to more than 100 million Muslims.
The Middle East is a vague and often negative term which does not accurately reflect where Muslims live.
The majority of people who live in north Africa, the Arabian peninsula, and southwest Asia are Muslims, but they constitute only about 20% of all Muslims.
Map of Muslim Population Worldwide

2. Muslims are Arabs.

An Arab is a person who speaks Arabic as his or her native language, and only twenty percent of Muslims fall into this category. Millions of Arabs are Christians! There are about 300 million Arabic speakers in the world today. Arabic is the majority language of twenty-three nations. Turkish, Iranian, Indonesian, Pakistani and other Muslims may feel hurt if you assume they are Arab.
3. Muslims don’t believe in Jesus and are not interested in him.

Muslims highly respect Jesus as a prophet of God and value his teachings. Muslims often name their sons after Jesus, who they call Isa, although they do not understand Jesus as the son of God or understand that he died on the cross for the sins of mankind. The Qur’an, however, mentions Jesus 93 times, teaching that he preformed miracles, was born of a virgin, and will return again as Messiah. Muslims may ask you, “Why don’t Christians follow the teachings of Jesus?”
4. Muslims worship the moon and a Moon-God.
There are some Christian groups which teach that Allah is an idol for the moon god. Others mistake the Arabic word Allah as meaning a “moon god” because Islam uses the symbol of the crescent moon. This is a very offensive accusation to Muslims. Allah is the Arabic word for God and is very similar to the Hebrew word El and the Aramaic word Elah. The most fundamental belief in Islam is worshiping the one true God. Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews also use the Arabic word Allah for God, as do all Arabic translations of the Bible. There is no other word in Arabic for God. Muslims do not worship the moon. The use of the crescent moon as a symbol of Islam comes from Muslim practice of following a lunar calendar.
5. Muslims support violence and terrorism.
The vast majority of Muslims are moderate, pious people who suffer more from terrorism and violence than non-Muslims. Ninety-three percent of Muslims do not support extremist views of terrorism.
Gallup, Inc. conducted a revealing poll about Moderate vs. Extremist Views in the Muslim World.
6. Muslims are engaged in Jihad (war) against us.
The meaning of the Arabic word jihad is struggle. It usually means a struggle of one’s soul against the self and sinful desires. Muslims refer to this inner struggle as the greater jihad. Muslims also have social campaigns to end poverty and hunger which they also call jihad.
7. All Muslims are the same and all Muslims are either Sunni or Shi’a.


Like Christianity, there are many sects of Islam. The two major branches are Sunni and Shi’a, but there are thousands of sub-groups, each having different doctrines, their own theology, and different Islamic schools of thought and law.
8. Islam oppresses women.
Most of the oppression of women by Islam and Muslims that is highly publicized is usually due to local customs and traditions. Muslim women have been presidents and prime ministers. Violence towards women and forcing them against their will is not permitted by Islam. Care for widows, orphans, and the poor is one of Islam’s strongest teachings. Unfortunately, many women are oppressed, However, this is a global issue and not just Islamic oppression. Prevalence of abuse of women is not higher among Muslims than among non-Muslims.
9. Muslims are ignorant and don’t value education.
Muslims place a high value on education. Many Muslims are highly educated with Master’s degrees and PhDs. Many Muslims speak multiple languages. Until the industrial age, Islamic universities were the world leaders in math, medicine, science, law, architecture, and many other fields of study. The scientific method has its basis in Muslim advancement of science. Muslims cite the Qur’an as their encouragement to seek knowledge of the world around them. Many Muslims come and study at our universities, yet today most Muslims are poor and lack educational opportunities.
10. Muslims place little value on women, family life, and children. 
The Muslim community worldwide places a high value on family life. Generations of a family live together, often in the same household. Elderly family members are cared for in this environment; this is viewed as an honor, not a burden. It would be shameful to put them in assisted living or retirement homes. Children are included in all areas of life and usually the center of all family gatherings.
11. Muslims are archaic with little value for culture and the arts.

While Europe was still in the Dark Ages, Muslim societies were making advancements in medicine, mathematics, physics, astronomy, geography, architecture, art, and literature. In fact, the renaissance happened as a result of the ancient and new knowledge reacquired from Muslims universities.
12. Muhammad was the founder of Islam and Muslims worship him.
Muslims believe that Muhammad was God’s last prophet and communicated God’s final revelation. Muslims consider Adam the first Muslim. Muhammad is seen as the best example of how to be a good Muslim. He is held in great esteem, but he is not to be worshiped. Worship is reserved for God alone, and it is strictly forbidden to worship anyone or anything else. Muslims may celebrate Muhammad’s birthday in the same way that we may celebrate Martin Luther King Day or Columbus Day.
13. Muslims are lying about Islam being peaceful.
Most Muslims are moderate, pious, nonviolent people who are trying to honor God in their lives. Muslim scholars who study the Qur’an explain Islam as a religion of peace, and most Muslims see Islam as a religion of peace as well, preferring to let others live as they wish. The media has sensationalized the views of a small percentage of violent extremists as the legitimate understanding of Islam as a community seeking global domination by force.
14. We never hear Muslims speak against terrorism. 
This lie is repeated frequently in the media and unfortunately by Christian leaders as well. Leading Muslim groups and scholars constantly denounce the extreme views of violent Muslims, while teaching against and refuting radical teachings. Google “Muslims against terrorism” and you will see this.

15. Islam is growing faster than any other religion.

Not true. Christianity is!
https://encounteringislam.org/misconceptions




I stand to be corrected if i am wrong about the information i have posted here if someone among us practicing the Muslim faith can inform us better of what it is like to be a Muslim, or should we just hate them because we have some preconceived notion about them?
The extremist factions do not represent the Muslim people IMO.

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by BlueBag on 12.01.15 11:43

@Joss wrote:I'm glad you trust your Govt.'s and MSM because i sure as hell don't.
Totally agree.

After Tony Blair's WMD farce and Colin Powell the same before the UN... they DO lie to push their agenda through.

Condolesa Rice lied before the 9/11 Investigation Committee "no one could have imagined planes being used like that".

Western and Israeli secret services ( "By Way of Deception, Thou Shalt Do War.") have a track record in false flag operations. Google "Operation Gladio" (to make the European public anti-communist) and Operation Northwoods (American plan to blow up an airliner and blame Cuba).

Our Governments are not to be trusted.

Demand proof of everything.

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by Joss on 12.01.15 11:46

@BlueBag wrote:
@Joss wrote:I'm glad you trust your Govt.'s and MSM because i sure as hell don't.
Totally agree.

After Tony Blair's WMD farce and Colin Powell the same before the UN... they DO lie to push their agenda through.

Condolesa Rice lied before the 9/11 Investigation Committee "no one could have imagined planes being used like that".

Western and Israeli secret services ( "By Way of Deception, Thou Shalt Do War.") have a track record in false flag operations. Google "Operation Gladio" (to make the European public anti-communist) and Operation Northwoods (American plan to blow up an airliner and blame Cuba).

Our Governments are not to be trusted.

Demand proof of everything.
Yes exactly.

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by Joss on 12.01.15 11:49

@aquila wrote:I am so very sad to see slaughter on the streets. For anyone to ignore this violence is caused by Islamist extemists is wrong. They are not doing it because they are murderers. They are doing it because they are Islamic extemists. They are affiliated to no other religion/non religion.

Some on the forum will say it's a conspiracy theory and they are in the 'pay' of the powers that be. I don't believe that.

Some on the forum will say it's to cover up things and gain ground other things. I don't believe that.

Some will say 'Islamaphobia'.

Well.....there's some mileage in that. Just turn it on its head....muslims who won't speak out are Islamaphobic. Terrified to speak against their faith? Terrified to question their right to do that?
You should be glad not to live in the U.S.A then, as there are many murders from gun violence.

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by Knitted on 12.01.15 12:32

Hi, for the first 24hrs or so I kept an open mind. When the ID was found I was reminded of the laughable survival of one of the alleged terrorist's found at the WTC.  However, as events unfolded further I am satisfied that the official narrative is the more reasonable and lkely explanation.  I now see no reason to suggest they were acting in any way other than, effectively, lone operatives. I can see Aquila's point, but I also understand where Joss and Bluebag's thinking comes from.

The problem is that there are few undeniable examples of terrorism being 'facilitated', or simply allowed to proceed, by countries against their own citizens.

For example, there was an ex-Egyptian Army Officer, working for the FBI, that infiltrated the 1993 plot to blow up the North WTC tower. As the plot developed he told his FBI handlers he was in a position to substitute the explosives for inert powder, but they refused and they instead began to withdraw him from the operation. The end result was real explosives were used and 6 people were killed. The FBI knew the terrorists involved and could have stopped it, but they didn't.  Is this yet another Conspiracy Theory?... Yes it would be, but for the fact that the Egyptian undercover agent had the the foresight, and sensing that the FBI wanted the attack to go ahead instead of stopping it, to secretly record 70hrs of conversations with his FBI handler. Transcripts were handle out in open court and the trial descended into chaos. Shockingly, no one in the FBI was ever indicted, either for simple incompetence, let alone being a proactive accessory to the 6 deaths. Oddly, the court case where the FBI's culpability was revealed, via the recorded tapes, received very little news coverage.  Then there's the terrorist Abdullah Catli. He was involved and implicated in several terrorist incidents, including the attempt on the Pope's life in 1981. He was often paid by the Turkish Intelligence Service in Heroin. He was on Interpol's 'Most Wanted' list but, despite that, he openly traveled the world. Indeed, he came to Britain and bought a nice house in West London, (whilst on Interpol's list), where he lived for some years. He also went to America for a time, (again, whilst on Interpol's list).  He was above he law. The Turkish Prime Minister had publicly declared him to be the country's number one target for law enforcement. Despite that he still mixed with politicians and senior policeman. He died in a car crash on 3rd November 1996 along with a senior policeman and the ubiquitous beauty queen. Surviving the crash with a fractured skull was an MP. The previous night they'd all stayed at the same hotel as the Turkish Interior Minister. The surviving MP, Mehmet Agar, later admitted he worked for the 'Deep State' that operates behind the facade of public politics and law enforcement.  Another conspiracy theory? No... everything's on record.

A fascinating area of study is the 'Deep State' and its links to the cells set up to 'fight behind the lines' in the event of the Russians invading during the Cold War. That such cells existed, and operated behind the scenes of government, and were implicated in internal terrorist attacks against their own fellow citizens were deemed "Conspiracy Theories", (before that term became popular). That was until one of Italy's longest serving Prime Minister's declared that the secret cells existed in the 'Deep State' (The Italian codeword was 'Operation Gladio') and had been involved in bombing Italian citizens whilst pretending to be part of a group of Italian Communists. These 'Deep State' cells are the ones that were 'on the ground' when the USA funded the embryonic Al Quaeda to fight the USSR in Afghanistan. With the demise of the Cold War the egos and 'ideals' in the 'Deep State Cells' have got into the murkier world of Islam versus the West, (if you're interested see Sibel Edward's work... She is sometimes labelled the 'Most Gagged Woman in America' after working in the CIA for a few years on the Turkish Intelligence Desk). This may all sound far fetched (depending on how far you think the rabbit hole goes) but I guess it is reasonable, given the above examples, that if someone perceives an enemy somewhere, or they have a strategic agenda, who knows what twisted logic might prevail? Just as you get twisted attackers killing for religion, (as we have had last week in France), we might get, on the other end of the see-saw, members of the Establishment equally twisted and 'allowing' such things to happen if to do so serves some purpose.  n.b. We know similar things as the Italian 'Gladio' cells existed in pre-Cold War in England as the Rt. Hon. Michael Foot, (ardent public pacifist and CND campaigner), in his memoirs, confirmed he was part of a covert political cell and his orders were to assassinate any UK Prime Minister that surrendered to Hitler in the event of a successful Nazi invasion...and he said he'd have not hesitated to do it).

Anyway, I hope the above example were interesting in showing that lines can be blurred and that parts of our 'Establishments' can act autonomously and aim for an end-goal (whatever that might be?) that means that they might be complicit in/facilitate/turn a blind eye to, some individual serious crimes and terrorist acts when deemed necessary to do so. 

As I say, I have no doubt some terrorist attacks that have filled our media over the last generation are, based on the available evidence (buried by the mainstream media),  nowhere near as clear cut as they seem.  For the record, to reiterate, I can see no evidence of anythng other than these being 'lone-wolves'. We'll (probably) never know if there is more to it than what meets the eye. We could all expend enormous amounts of energy arguing over the level, if any, of complicity and/or mistakes made by the 'Establishment'.  However, what is now important, is what happens next?

I see Cameron, and other world 'leaders', already riding on the bandwagon to erode all of our privacies and freedoms even further. This should worry and concern all of us because:

(i) Cameron has said he is now going to push for more surveillance powers and resurrect the 'Communications Charter Bill' (aka "Snoopers' Charter)
(ii) At the end of September Cameron said in a speech to the UN that “Non-Violent Conspiracy Theorists” Are Just As Dangerous As ISIS”
(iii) Some would call people looking for justice for Madeleine as "non-violent conspiracy theorists" Who knows what the next government scandal might be... it only needs someone in power to say that any dissenting voices amongst the masses are 'conspiracy theorists' and, 'Bingo' they're by default, and in the eyes of our 'leaders', simply 'terrorists'. 

... so we should all let that sink in!

... and thus I hope we don't put a disproportionate amount of energy (in this forum) into what may or may not be behind these attacks... but instead each keystroke should also highlight where our freedoms are being eroded.  We're 'Boiling Frogs' and those in power are taking us for a ride. It's happening to us on a daily basis...and if we fight amongst ourselves we'll simply see what's left of our free speech taken from us by those in power who will manipulate this tragedy for their own, oppressive, restrictive, ends.

(Phew, I need a cuppa now!)

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by BlueBag on 12.01.15 12:48

Excellent post Knitted.

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by Joss on 12.01.15 13:15

Britain’s new anti-terror bill to breach citizens’ rights’


A UK parliamentary panel has warned the government of Britons’ human rights violations unless the recent anti-terrorism legislation is modified.
Provisions in the bill allow the government to invalidate the passport of British terror suspects, while they are overseas. However, the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Human Rights says any such exclusion of British nationals, even on a temporary basis, poses the risk of violating their rights.
The panel has urged the government to insert new safeguards into the proposed legislation. The Home Secretary introduced the bill in November, arguing that the terror threat in Britain is now greater than at any time since the 2001 attacks in the United States. Theresa May cited potential threats posed by militants heading back from Syria.
“This gives rise to a very real risk that the human rights of UK nationals will be violated as a result of the imposition of temporary exclusion orders,” the panel said in a 43-page report published on Monday, adding: “We are opposed in principle to any exclusion of UK nationals from the UK, even on a temporary basis.”
The committee also recommended excluding universities from a list of authorities required to prevent people from being drawn into extremism, citing a lack of legal certainty over the definition of extremism.
In August, Britain raised its terror threat to “severe,” the second-highest level, with Prime Minister David Cameron saying the battle against extremism is a “generational struggle.” About 600 extremists are among the many Britons fighting along with militants in Syria.
Also, Andrew Parker, the head of the domestic intelligence agency known as the MI5, said in a January 8 speech that militants in Syria “are trying to direct terrorist attacks in the UK.”

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by Joss on 12.01.15 13:25

@Knitted wrote:Hi, for the first 24hrs or so I kept an open mind. When the ID was found I was reminded of the laughable survival of one of the alleged terrorist's found at the WTC.  However, as events unfolded further I am satisfied that the official narrative is the more reasonable and lkely explanation.  I now see no reason to suggest they were acting in any way other than, effectively, lone operatives. I can see Aquila's point, but I also understand where Joss and Bluebag's thinking comes from.

The problem is that there are few undeniable examples of terrorism being 'facilitated', or simply allowed to proceed, by countries against their own citizens.

For example, there was an ex-Egyptian Army Officer, working for the FBI, that infiltrated the 1993 plot to blow up the North WTC tower. As the plot developed he told his FBI handlers he was in a position to substitute the explosives for inert powder, but they refused and they instead began to withdraw him from the operation. The end result was real explosives were used and 6 people were killed. The FBI knew the terrorists involved and could have stopped it, but they didn't.  Is this yet another Conspiracy Theory?... Yes it would be, but for the fact that the Egyptian undercover agent had the the foresight, and sensing that the FBI wanted the attack to go ahead instead of stopping it, to secretly record 70hrs of conversations with his FBI handler. Transcripts were handle out in open court and the trial descended into chaos. Shockingly, no one in the FBI was ever indicted, either for simple incompetence, let alone being a proactive accessory to the 6 deaths. Oddly, the court case where the FBI's culpability was revealed, via the recorded tapes, received very little news coverage.  Then there's the terrorist Abdullah Catli. He was involved and implicated in several terrorist incidents, including the attempt on the Pope's life in 1981. He was often paid by the Turkish Intelligence Service in Heroin. He was on Interpol's 'Most Wanted' list but, despite that, he openly traveled the world. Indeed, he came to Britain and bought a nice house in West London, (whilst on Interpol's list), where he lived for some years. He also went to America for a time, (again, whilst on Interpol's list).  He was above he law. The Turkish Prime Minister had publicly declared him to be the country's number one target for law enforcement. Despite that he still mixed with politicians and senior policeman. He died in a car crash on 3rd November 1996 along with a senior policeman and the ubiquitous beauty queen. Surviving the crash with a fractured skull was an MP. The previous night they'd all stayed at the same hotel as the Turkish Interior Minister. The surviving MP, Mehmet Agar, later admitted he worked for the 'Deep State' that operates behind the facade of public politics and law enforcement.  Another conspiracy theory? No... everything's on record.

A fascinating area of study is the 'Deep State' and its links to the cells set up to 'fight behind the lines' in the event of the Russians invading during the Cold War. That such cells existed, and operated behind the scenes of government, and were implicated in internal terrorist attacks against their own fellow citizens were deemed "Conspiracy Theories", (before that term became popular). That was until one of Italy's longest serving Prime Minister's declared that the secret cells existed in the 'Deep State' (The Italian codeword was 'Operation Gladio') and had been involved in bombing Italian citizens whilst pretending to be part of a group of Italian Communists. These 'Deep State' cells are the ones that were 'on the ground' when the USA funded the embryonic Al Quaeda to fight the USSR in Afghanistan. With the demise of the Cold War the egos and 'ideals' in the 'Deep State Cells' have got into the murkier world of Islam versus the West, (if you're interested see Sibel Edward's work... She is sometimes labelled the 'Most Gagged Woman in America' after working in the CIA for a few years on the Turkish Intelligence Desk). This may all sound far fetched (depending on how far you think the rabbit hole goes) but I guess it is reasonable, given the above examples, that if someone perceives an enemy somewhere, or they have a strategic agenda, who knows what twisted logic might prevail? Just as you get twisted attackers killing for religion, (as we have had last week in France), we might get, on the other end of the see-saw, members of the Establishment equally twisted and 'allowing' such things to happen if to do so serves some purpose.  n.b. We know similar things as the Italian 'Gladio' cells existed in pre-Cold War in England as the Rt. Hon. Michael Foot, (ardent public pacifist and CND campaigner), in his memoirs, confirmed he was part of a covert political cell and his orders were to assassinate any UK Prime Minister that surrendered to Hitler in the event of a successful Nazi invasion...and he said he'd have not hesitated to do it).

Anyway, I hope the above example were interesting in showing that lines can be blurred and that parts of our 'Establishments' can act autonomously and aim for an end-goal (whatever that might be?) that means that they might be complicit in/facilitate/turn a blind eye to, some individual serious crimes and terrorist acts when deemed necessary to do so. 

As I say, I have no doubt some terrorist attacks that have filled our media over the last generation are, based on the available evidence (buried by the mainstream media),  nowhere near as clear cut as they seem.  For the record, to reiterate, I can see no evidence of anythng other than these being 'lone-wolves'. We'll (probably) never know if there is more to it than what meets the eye. We could all expend enormous amounts of energy arguing over the level, if any, of complicity and/or mistakes made by the 'Establishment'.  However, what is now important, is what happens next?

I see Cameron, and other world 'leaders', already riding on the bandwagon to erode all of our privacies and freedoms even further. This should worry and concern all of us because:

(i) Cameron has said he is now going to push for more surveillance powers and resurrect the 'Communications Charter Bill' (aka "Snoopers' Charter)
(ii) At the end of September Cameron said in a speech to the UN that “Non-Violent Conspiracy Theorists” Are Just As Dangerous As ISIS”
(iii) Some would call people looking for justice for Madeleine as "non-violent conspiracy theorists" Who knows what the next government scandal might be... it only needs someone in power to say that any dissenting voices amongst the masses are 'conspiracy theorists' and, 'Bingo' they're by default, and in the eyes of our 'leaders', simply 'terrorists'. 

... so we should all let that sink in!

... and thus I hope we don't put a disproportionate amount of energy (in this forum) into what may or may not be behind these attacks... but instead each keystroke should also highlight where our freedoms are being eroded.  We're 'Boiling Frogs' and those in power are taking us for a ride. It's happening to us on a daily basis...and if we fight amongst ourselves we'll simply see what's left of our free speech taken from us by those in power who will manipulate this tragedy for their own, oppressive, restrictive, ends.

(Phew, I need a cuppa now!)
thumbsup
I agree, excellent post. Enjoy your cuppa, :)

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by ultimaThule on 12.01.15 13:26

I recommend you pour a large aperitif to have with that cuppa, Knitted, and perhaps a lie-down in a darkened room wouldn't go amiss. big grin

IMO the Jihadists who committed the atrocities in Paris were far from being either 'lone operatives' or a 'gang of 3' and were most probably recruited, trained, armed, and acting on orders given by a sophisticated network of terrorists linked to IS/Boku Haran.

Had they been of any importance to the group(s) to which they were affiliated, I have no doubt they could have disappeared into the woodwork, so to speak, and been spirited out of France after the events in much the same manner as the female accomplice who is reported to have crossed over into Syria on the day of the massacre - for some reason I feel the need to avail myself of the salt cellar with regard to that particular story.  

However, I believe that these 3 killers were not only expendable; it was necessary for them to die after they had completed their missions and the lack of any provision for their possible escape led 2 of them to behave like headless chickens after committing their heinous acts.

As I don't wish to detract from your excellent post, I'll conclude with this extract snipped from a much longer contribution by loopzdaloop on 'The price of laughter in Paris' thread and draw your attention to the last paragraph:

"Islamist terrorism cannot be understood without acknowledging the extent to which its networks are being used by Western military intelligence services, both to control strategic energy resources and to counter their geopolitical rivals. Even now, nearly a decade after 9/11, covert sponsorship of al-Qaeda networks continues. In recent dispatches for the New Yorker, investigative journalist Seymour Hersh cites US Government and intelligence officials’ confirmation that the CIA and the Pentagon have funnelled millions of dollars via Saudi Arabia to al-Qaeda affiliated Sunni extremist groups, across the Middle East and Central Asia. The policy, which Hersh says began in 2003, has spilled over into regions like Iraq and Lebanon, fuelling Sunni-Shi’a sectarian conflict.37 The programme is part of a drive to counter Iranian Shi’a influence in the region. In early 2008, a US Presidential Finding to Congress corroborated Hersh’s reporting, affirming CIA funding worth $400 million to diverse anti-Shi’a extremist and terrorist groups. This was not contested by any Democratic members of the House.38 Now, President Obama has retained Bush’s Defense Secretary, Robert Gates, as his own. Yet Gates was the architect of the covert strategy against Iran. To date, Obama has given no indication that this strategy will change. The history outlined here throws into doubt our entire understanding of the ‘war on terror’. How can we fight a war against an enemy that our own governments are covertly financing for short-sighted geopolitical interests?
If the ‘war on terror’ is to end, it won’t be won by fighting the next futile oil war. It will be won at home by holding the secretive structures of government to account and prosecuting officials for aiding and abetting terrorism – whether knowingly or by criminal negligence. Ultimately only this will rein in the ‘security’ agencies that foster the ‘enemy’ we are supposed to be fighting"
Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed is Executive Director of the Institute for Policy Research and Development.
His latest book is The London Bombings: An Independent Inquiry (Duckworth, 2006).
This is an extended version of the article which appeared in the October 2009 issue of NI, Islam in Power.[/size]
- See more at: http://newint.org/features/2009/10/01/blowback-extended-version/#sthash.RtRf7q0Y.dpuf

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by Knitted on 12.01.15 14:21

@ultimaThule wrote:I recommend you pour a large aperitif to have with that cuppa, Knitted, and perhaps a lie-down in a darkened room wouldn't go amiss. big grin

IMO the Jihadists who committed the atrocities in Paris were far from being either 'lone operatives' or a 'gang of 3' and were most probably recruited, trained, armed, and acting on orders given by a sophisticated network of terrorists linked to IS/Boku Haran.

Had they been of any importance to the group(s) to which they were affiliated, I have no doubt they could have disappeared into the woodwork, so to speak, and been spirited out of France after the events in much the same manner as the female accomplice who is reported to have crossed over into Syria on the day of the massacre - for some reason I feel the need to avail myself of the salt cellar with regard to that particular story.  

However, I believe that these 3 killers were not only expendable; it was necessary for them to die after they had completed their missions and the lack of any provision for their possible escape led 2 of them to behave like headless chickens after committing their heinous acts.

As I don't wish to detract from your excellent post, I'll conclude with this extract snipped from a much longer contribution by loopzdaloop on 'The price of laughter in Paris' thread and draw your attention to the last paragraph:

"Islamist terrorism cannot be understood without acknowledging the extent to which its networks are being used by Western military intelligence services, both to control strategic energy resources and to counter their geopolitical rivals. Even now, nearly a decade after 9/11, covert sponsorship of al-Qaeda networks continues. In recent dispatches for the New Yorker, investigative journalist Seymour Hersh cites US Government and intelligence officials’ confirmation that the CIA and the Pentagon have funnelled millions of dollars via Saudi Arabia to al-Qaeda affiliated Sunni extremist groups, across the Middle East and Central Asia. The policy, which Hersh says began in 2003, has spilled over into regions like Iraq and Lebanon, fuelling Sunni-Shi’a sectarian conflict.37 The programme is part of a drive to counter Iranian Shi’a influence in the region. In early 2008, a US Presidential Finding to Congress corroborated Hersh’s reporting, affirming CIA funding worth $400 million to diverse anti-Shi’a extremist and terrorist groups. This was not contested by any Democratic members of the House.38 Now, President Obama has retained Bush’s Defense Secretary, Robert Gates, as his own. Yet Gates was the architect of the covert strategy against Iran. To date, Obama has given no indication that this strategy will change. The history outlined here throws into doubt our entire understanding of the ‘war on terror’. How can we fight a war against an enemy that our own governments are covertly financing for short-sighted geopolitical interests?
If the ‘war on terror’ is to end, it won’t be won by fighting the next futile oil war. It will be won at home by holding the secretive structures of government to account and prosecuting officials for aiding and abetting terrorism – whether knowingly or by criminal negligence. Ultimately only this will rein in the ‘security’ agencies that foster the ‘enemy’ we are supposed to be fighting"
Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed is Executive Director of the Institute for Policy Research and Development.
His latest book is The London Bombings: An Independent Inquiry (Duckworth, 2006).
This is an extended version of the article which appeared in the October 2009 issue of NI, Islam in Power.[/size]
- See more at: http://newint.org/features/2009/10/01/blowback-extended-version/#sthash.RtRf7q0Y.dpuf
Hi UltimaThule, 

I accept the point you make and fully agree they would have had affiliations, potentially several complex affiliations, with various groups. I can see by your, in return, excellent post, that I used the the 'Lone Wolf' (highly) inappropriately. The point I was making, and thus the terminology I used, was influenced by my seeing many posts across several other sites suggesting this was a French or Mossad Secret Service 'False Flag'. However, the application of Ockham's Razor, based on what we know so far, is that it is not the case (as far as I can be certain).  I was thus using 'Lone Wolf' as a dichotomy to distance them from claims elsewhere of it being a 'False Flag'. I should stick to one forum at a time :) ... I hope that makes sense? 

I concur, 100%, with the quote you pasted that reads "If the ‘war on terror’ is to end, it won’t be won by fighting the next futile oil war. It will be won at home by holding the secretive structures of government to account and prosecuting officials for aiding and abetting terrorism – whether knowingly or by criminal negligence. Ultimately only this will rein in the ‘security’ agencies that foster the ‘enemy’ we are supposed to be fighting""

For me, personally, it is important that we don't lose sight of, and not also direct t some effort, to the the inevitability that this incident will be used, by Westminster and other power bases, to infringe on all of our Civil Liberties.  The irony that the recent bloodthirsty "attack on Free Speech", looks like it will result in the predictable "invasion of our Freedoms" by our "democratic'!!!) leaders" leaves me numb. 

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by BlueBag on 12.01.15 15:46

The irony that the recent bloodthirsty "attack on Free Speech", looks like it will result in the predictable "invasion of our Freedoms" by our "democratic'!!!) leaders" leaves me numb. 

Very Orwell.

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by aquila on 12.01.15 23:42

For anyone interested, Panorama this evening broadcasted

"The Battle for British Islam"

Available on BBC iPlayer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b050nj0z/panorama-the-battle-for-british-islam

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by ultimaThule on 13.01.15 11:55

@BlueBag wrote:
The irony that the recent bloodthirsty "attack on Free Speech", looks like it will result in the predictable "invasion of our Freedoms" by our "democratic'!!!) leaders" leaves me numb. 

Very Orwell.

I don't see this as being any more Orwellian than another poster's assertion that All cultures are not equal. Some are better than others on the other thread on this topic, BlueBag.

I share Knitted's unease and I'm reminded of Göring's claim that "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by BlueBag on 13.01.15 11:59

No... the people who limit freedom whilst proclaiming freedom are very Orwell(ian).

I wasn't attacking knitted.

I agree with knitted.

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by ultimaThule on 13.01.15 12:16

Please accept my sincere apologies for misinterpreting what I hope you will agree is your somewhat ambiguous response to Knitted's post, BlueBag.  

The events in Paris have caused me to revisit Voltaire and wonder again "is there any so wise as to learn by the mistakes of others?".  Unfortunately, neither Voltaire or history provides a comforting answer to that particular question.  .

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by Knitted on 13.01.15 12:44

I'm not offering an opinion one way or the other on the following clip as I know nothing about live firearms... I'm just sharing a detailed clip of the shooting of the prone policeman for in Paris for those that may have only viewed the pixrlated one shown in the MSM. I simply like tying up loose ends and I know this will bug me over time if no one can counter it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJEvlKKm6og&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyJEvlKKm6og&has_verified=1

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by BlueBag on 13.01.15 13:14

@Knitted wrote:I'm not offering an opinion one way or the other on the following clip as I know nothing about live firearms... I'm just sharing a detailed clip of the shooting of the prone policeman for in Paris for those that may have only viewed the pixrlated one shown in the MSM. I simply like tying up loose ends and I know this will bug me over time if no one can counter it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJEvlKKm6og&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyJEvlKKm6og&has_verified=1

I think this is a valid question.

Look at JFK's head when he was hit with a bullet.

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 13.01.15 13:18

@BlueBag wrote:
@Knitted wrote:I'm not offering an opinion one way or the other on the following clip as I know nothing about live firearms... I'm just sharing a detailed clip of the shooting of the prone policeman for in Paris for those that may have only viewed the pixrlated one shown in the MSM. I simply like tying up loose ends and I know this will bug me over time if no one can counter it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJEvlKKm6og&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyJEvlKKm6og&has_verified=1

I think this is a valid question.

Look at JFK's head when he was hit with a bullet.
I saw a slowed down clip of it. My interpretation/perception was that the poor guy was shot at the upper back/lower neck area.

____________________
The truth will out.

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Re: MASSACRE in Paris this morning - 12 members of anti-Islam satirical magazine gunned down - gunmen flee

Post by BlueBag on 13.01.15 13:48

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@Knitted wrote:I'm not offering an opinion one way or the other on the following clip as I know nothing about live firearms... I'm just sharing a detailed clip of the shooting of the prone policeman for in Paris for those that may have only viewed the pixrlated one shown in the MSM. I simply like tying up loose ends and I know this will bug me over time if no one can counter it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJEvlKKm6og&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyJEvlKKm6og&has_verified=1

I think this is a valid question.

Look at JFK's head when he was hit with a bullet.
I saw a slowed down clip of it. My interpretation/perception was that the poor guy was shot at the upper back/lower neck area.
Just like going to sleep?

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