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"Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

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"Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.12.14 0:23

Madeleine McCann cops had to fight for a YEAR for crucial DNA evidence

Dec 20, 2014 22:20 By Nick Dorman

The Metropolitan Police made repeated requests for samples and fingerprints from four Portugese men.

Portugese police snubbed a request by their British counterparts for crucial DNA evidence in the Madeleine McCann case for at least a year.

Repeated pleas by the Metropolitan Police for samples and fingerprints from four Portuguese men were denied as local police said it would be illegal.

The first appeal was made by officers working on Operation Grange in July 2013.

Portuguese police finally questioned the men as arguidos – “person of interest” – at the request of Scotland Yard a year later.

However, the Home Office has refused to reveal if DNA samples were handed over.

A source said: “This dragging of heels by police in Portugal can’t have helped the investigation.”

Earlier this month detectives spent four hours quizzing British ex-pat Robert Murat at Algarve police station.

He was on a list of 10 men and women, made up for four Brits, a German and five Portugese national, who were questioned by Scotland Yard.

Mr Murat is not suspected of any involvement in Maddie's disappearance and has said he is happy to cooperate with the investigation.

British police believe Madeleine was killed during a bungled burglary.

Parts of the Praia da Luz resort, where Madeleine vanished from, were dug up by detectives in June but no clues as to what happened were found.

Madeleine was just three when she vanished from her family’s holiday flat in 2007.



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-cops-fight-year-4847449

+++++++++++++++++

COMMENT:   The Scotland Yard theory for over a year now appears to be that Madeleine was killed during a bungled burglary - and that the burglar was spotted by the Smiths at 10.00pm on 3 May. I think they may also try and get away with suggesting that the cadaver dog's alerts were indeed to cadaver odour resulting from Madeleine's murder by a burglar in the apartment after 9.10pm that evening. Several signs have already pointed us this way; tonight's Sunday Mirror story is IMO another pointer in the same direction. Martin Smith appears to be going along with the 'bungled burglary' theory, since we know he was interviewed by Grange twice, in 2012 and 2013. He has, according to Grange, endorsed the two e-fits of different-looking men, and has obviously long since abandoned his claim that he recognised the man he said he and has family saw as Gerry McCann

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by jeanmonroe on 21.12.14 1:20

"Repeated pleas by the Metropolitan Police for samples and fingerprints from four Portuguese men were denied as local police said it would be illegal."
-----------------------------------------

I take it from the 'above' that OG/MET/SY 'officers' were, in fact, asking Portuguese Police Officers to 'break' their Country's 'laws' and act 'illegally' to 'supply' OG/SY/MET police officers with 'samples' and 'fingerprints'.

Didn't they, haven't they, the OG 'team', learnt anything from the 'ill fated' wrongly convicted, Barry George 'case'? (Det Ch Supt Hamish Campbell)  ( gunpowder, strand of material, 'samples')

Oh, wait, Det Ch Supt Hamish C was in 'charge' of, and conviction in, 'innocent' BG 'case' AND was also 'second-in-command' at Operation Grange, until his retirement!

So United Kingdom, OG officers, 'trying' to 'obtain' 'samples' and 'fingerprints' 'ILLEGALLY' really shouldn't come as a 'surprise' to anyone!

This 'investigation' dosen't get any 'better' does it?

Asking Portuguese Police officers to illegally obtain 'samples' and 'fingerprints', to 'possibly' be used to 'fit up/stitch up' by UK Operation Grange police officers, one, or more, of FOUR innocent, until PROVEN 'guilty' erm 'suspects!

Hope to God, we don't find out that DCI Wall was, in some way, 'connected' to Det Ch Supt Campbell, in/with any of HIS previous 'investigations' (including BG 'case')

ALL, imo, obviously.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by jeanmonroe on 21.12.14 2:07

"British police believe Madeleine was killed during a bungled burglary"
-------------------------------------------------------

Just a 'theory' of the British Police though, isn't it?

There's also another 'theory' isn't there?

And that is:

The minor, Madeleine McCann, died, albeit accidentally, in her parents holiday apartment in PDL, Portugal.

That her parents simulated an 'abduction'

That her parents, or people they know, hid her body and have refused to give up her body to lawful authorities.
--------------------------------------------
(I say 'body' because British Police say 'killed', don't they?)

Not a bungling, killer, 'burglator' in 'sight', in THAT other 'theory' is there?

That OTHER 'explanation' to explain how Madeleine's 'not here' (GM)
--------------------------------------------

DCI Mahogany has 1 more 'sleep' on this 'case'

CYA on the TV 'sofa's' Andy! (from Monday 22nd December 2014, onwards, obviously!)

When/where you'll just be another 'bloke,' EX MET cop, that came nowhere near to getting 'justice' for, or finding out what 'happened' to an innocent 3 years old 'missing' child!

All i can say is that i hope Lorraine and the 'others''pay' well!

Just don't 'embarrass' yourself! winkwink

Like all those other 'authoritive' EX MET 'cops' who regularly 'commentate' on Madeleine's 'case' in the TV studios.

BTW, did you EVER 'search' THAT 'well' EX MET cop Roger Rammjet told you to 'search'? laughat

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Brian Griffin on 21.12.14 3:09

Well, it was bound to be the fault of the Portuguese, wasn't it? That play has been on the cards for ages. So, was it worth burning one of your senior police officials now that your counterparts are turning round and biting you in the soft, sensitive bits?

Withheld information (photofits anyone?) and DNA samples. Priceless!

Bottom line: SY has no jurisdiction and no business meddling in Portuguese police or state affairs. Had they not done so this BS case would have been done and dusted long ago. I wish the Portuguese would have the balls to say that!

In my opinion.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Brian Griffin on 21.12.14 3:12

@Tony Bennett wrote:British police believe Madeleine was killed during a bungled burglary.
You go out robbing for trinkets and come back with a kid? It sounds like something straight out of 'Family Guy'!

Not that I watch it or have ever heard of it.

In my opinion.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Joss on 21.12.14 3:33

@Brian Griffin wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:British police believe Madeleine was killed during a bungled burglary.
You go out robbing for trinkets and come back with a kid? It sounds like something straight out of 'Family Guy'!

Not that I watch it or have ever heard of it.

In my opinion.
Exactly, they come across as having entered the twilight zone, crazy stuff to be sure.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Joss on 21.12.14 3:35

@Brian Griffin wrote:Well, it was bound to be the fault of the Portuguese, wasn't it? That play has been on the cards for ages. So, was it worth burning one of your senior police officials now that your counterparts are turning round and biting you in the soft, sensitive bits?

Withheld information (photofits anyone?) and DNA samples. Priceless!

Bottom line: SY has no jurisdiction and no business meddling in Portuguese police or state affairs. Had they not done so this BS case would have been done and dusted long ago. I wish the Portuguese would have the balls to say that!

In my opinion.
Yes the Irony is indeed rich! The crime happened on Portugese turf and the investigation should of been kept there IMO.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by columbostogeys on 21.12.14 6:32

@Joss wrote:
@Brian Griffin wrote:Well, it was bound to be the fault of the Portuguese, wasn't it? That play has been on the cards for ages. So, was it worth burning one of your senior police officials now that your counterparts are turning round and biting you in the soft, sensitive bits?

Withheld information (photofits anyone?) and DNA samples. Priceless!

Bottom line: SY has no jurisdiction and no business meddling in Portuguese police or state affairs. Had they not done so this BS case would have been done and dusted long ago. I wish the Portuguese would have the balls to say that!

In my opinion.
Yes the Irony is indeed rich! The crime happened on Portugese turf and the investigation should of been kept there IMO.
I still find it obscene 10million pounds of our tax payers money is being used to investigate this when it wasnt on our turf....I mean how many other cases have their been? SY are no further forward now. Why should the PJ hand out precious DNA material.

Anyway I dont believe this for one minute its reported in the SUNDAY MIRROR which is printed on lies and false half truths.

Why the hell would a burglar kill a 3 year old in the first place? What sort of pickings would they get early on in the season, perhaps a camera and passport maybe nothing was taken or touched, no fingerprints....IF the burglar was in there they would have found something to take quickly, the child wake up and what be a threat to this burglar in the DARK? If this is the only scenario SY have god help us all.

We threw this idea out 7 years ago......

There is simply NOTHING TO REPORT, so they make it up with a tiny bit of truth in it, so they can sell their paper to vulnerable idiots who believe everything they read lol. MERRY CHRISTMAS.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by margaret on 21.12.14 11:51

That story's got pink all over it and is best ignored.drama

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by woodforthetrees on 21.12.14 15:07



This is utter rubbish by the media again.


A burglar doesn't kill a child (and leave the other 2 alive anyway!). They also take goods if value regardless of what goes on, as they need money.


Only someone scared about DNA in or on the body then takes the body with them....hence SY are actually looking for a lone paedo.


Saying that the cadaver happened after 9.10pm is just trying to cover McCanns from child neglect charges, although any police person with a hint of a brain knows it takes hours for the scent to develop, not under 3mins!

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by ChippyM on 21.12.14 15:27

I agree that this just seems like spin to keep the burglar story alive.

In March Andy Redwood said he was open to the possibility that MM could have been dead or alive when leaving the apartment..... So even if SY think a 'burglar ' was responsible how did he do what he did in such a small window of opportunity and undetected? 

 If a whitewash was on the cards SY would have to account for this and come up with some magical explanation that left the McCanns story about how they checked as not being lies but some kind of 'honest mistake ' like Tanner man...I 'm just not sure how they could do that.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by ScarletLaw on 21.12.14 15:31

@Tony Bennett wrote:Madeleine McCann cops had to fight for a YEAR for crucial DNA evidence

Dec 20, 2014 22:20 By Nick Dorman

The Metropolitan Police made repeated requests for samples and fingerprints from four Portugese men.

Portugese police snubbed a request by their British counterparts for crucial DNA evidence in the Madeleine McCann case for at least a year.

Repeated pleas by the Metropolitan Police for samples and fingerprints from four Portuguese men were denied as local police said it would be illegal.

The first appeal was made by officers working on Operation Grange in July 2013.

Portuguese police finally questioned the men as arguidos – “person of interest” – at the request of Scotland Yard a year later.

However, the Home Office has refused to reveal if DNA samples were handed over.

A source said: “This dragging of heels by police in Portugal can’t have helped the investigation.”

Earlier this month detectives spent four hours quizzing British ex-pat Robert Murat at Algarve police station.

He was on a list of 10 men and women, made up for four Brits, a German and five Portugese national, who were questioned by Scotland Yard.

Mr Murat is not suspected of any involvement in Maddie's disappearance and has said he is happy to cooperate with the investigation.

British police believe Madeleine was killed during a bungled burglary.

Parts of the Praia da Luz resort, where Madeleine vanished from, were dug up by detectives in June but no clues as to what happened were found.

Madeleine was just three when she vanished from her family’s holiday flat in 2007.



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-cops-fight-year-4847449

+++++++++++++++++

COMMENT:   The Scotland Yard theory for over a year now appears to be that Madeleine was killed during a bungled burglary - and that the burglar was spotted by the Smiths at 10.00pm on 3 May. I think they may also try and get away with suggesting that the cadaver dog's alerts were indeed to cadaver odour resulting from Madeleine's murder by a burglar in the apartment after 9.10pm that evening. Several signs have already pointed us this way; tonight's Sunday Mirror story is IMO another pointer in the same direction. Martin Smith appears to be going along with the 'bungled burglary' theory, since we know he was interviewed by Grange twice, in 2012 and 2013. He has, according to Grange, endorsed the two e-fits of different-looking men, and has obviously long since abandoned his claim that he recognised the man he said he and has family saw as Gerry McCann

I.E --It isn't us Folks who are holding up this case and wasting all your money but Johnny Foreigner!!!

 The body must've been there for at least 90 minutes for the scent to be left. They obviously liked moving her around too, what with her being behind the settee and the parents wardrobe. Why the hell would you take a dead body away with you? If you're caught just leaving a place, then there's a million excuses you can use. If you're spotted with one- you're caught. And without a car- is just senseless. Abductors would watch them go to the restaurant and then take her, burglars would balk as soon as soon as they saw the kids. There's nothing to fit with the burglary in terms of a break in with the doors or windows either?

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Trainer on 21.12.14 15:43

So this burglar didn't bother stealing anything of value , mobile phones , watches etc that we are told were all left in the apartment ? But killed a child then wandered round the resort with a body that they then hid so well it's never been found . Doesn't sound very believable ......

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.12.14 16:02

@Trainer wrote:So this burglar didn't bother stealing anything of value , mobile phones , watches etc that we are told were all left in the apartment ? But killed a child then wandered round the resort with a body that they then hid so well it's never been found . Doesn't sound very believable ......
A reminder of the BBC Crimewatch programme, October 2013, where 'Smithman' was made the 'centre of our focus:

TRANSCRIPT - EXTRACT

The careful and critical analysis of the timeline has been absolutely key. Primarily, we’re focused on the area between 8.30 and 10. We know that at 8.30, that was the time that Mr and Mrs McCann went down to the Tapas area for their dinner and we know that at around 10pm that night was when Mrs McCann found that Madeleine was missing.

AMROLIWALA

One of the most pivotal events on the timeline was Jane Tanner’s sighting of a man carrying a child. He was walking in this spot…

[ PICTURES OF ROAD OUTSIDE G5A ]

…just metres from where Madeleine had been sleeping.

DRAMATIC MUSIC

This man was widely thought to have been Madeleine’s abductor, but the team was taking nothing for granted.

21 40

REDWOOD

One of the things that we picked up very quickly was the fact that there was a night crèche that was operating from the main Ocean Club reception – and  8 families had left 11 children in there – and one particular family we spoke to us gave us information that was really interesting and exciting. In fact, I would say it was – it was a revelation moment when, having discussed with them what hey were doing on the night, they themselves believed that they could be the Tanner sighting.

22 10

AMROLIWALA

The British father had collected his two-year-old daughter from the crèche. He had been walking near the McCanns’ apartment.

PHOTOGRAPH SHOWN

This is the actual photograph taken by Metropolitan Police Officers of the man dressed in the kind of clothes he wore on holiday. This image was compared to the artist’s impression [based on Jane Tanner’s statement].

CRECHEMAN AND TANNERMAN MERGED SO THAT THEY APPEARED TO BE VERY SIMILAR

It is uncannily similar – and we know from the pyjamas that their child was wearing that it is, again, uncannily striking, the similarity.

AMROLIWALA

So, what you’re saying is that the timeline that everyone was working on for four years in this case…was wrong?

23 00

REDWOOD

We’re almost certain, now, that this sighting is not the abductor. But very importantly, what it says is that from 9.15, we are able to allow the clock…

TICKING CLOCK

…to move forward and in doing so, things that have not been quite as significant or received quite the same degree of attention are now the centre of our focus.

AMROLIWALA

This was an enormous discovery for the team: an innocent explanation for the suspect who’s been at the centre of the case for six years.

23 30

Their attention quickly turned to another sighting, which could now be the key to the entire mystery.

It was here…

FILM OF THE RUE DA ESCOLA PRIMARIA

…at 10pm that an Irish family witnessed another man carrying a child. They saw him come down the hill from the direction of the Ocean Club, heading that way towards the beach. Could this have been Madeleine, and her abductor?

REDWOOD

He was a white man with brown hair and the child that he had in his arms was described as being about 3-4 years of age, with blonde hair, possibly wearing pyjamas – a description very close to that of Madeleine McCann.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Add to that Redwood's comment that 'Madeleine may have been dead when she left the apartment', add to that the highly-publicised search of waste ground in Praia da Luz last year, along the route claimed to have been taken by 'Smithman' - and it's clear that Operation Grange is looking for:

Smithman...

...who looks like two different people (the e-fits)...

...is white...

...and has brown hair...

...killed Madeleine in the apartment between 9.10pm and 10.00pm...

...leaving the scent of death for the cadaver dogs to find...

...then was seeen by the Smiths...

...disposed of her body somewhere...

...and was not seen by Matthew Oldfield when he did his 9.30pm check... 


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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by sharonl on 21.12.14 16:18

If we are to believe this media nonsense, we should also believe that the Portuguese are not working alongside Operation Grange as was previously claimed.

Why would the PJ waste time assisting a bunch that are clearly looking at evidence supplied or even created by the McCanns private investigators, many of whom have since been arrested, charged or jailed for major offences, even if they were not connected to this case?

And what happened when the Portuguese requested information from the UK? Information was withheld, the Government interfered, the McCanns refused to co-operate, DNA results that were once conclusive suddenly became inconclusive, they were slandered by the mainstream media. Meanwhile, Leics police were having cosy chats with their suspects and their friends.

Why on Earth would the PJ trust the UK Police, let alone waste time supplying evidence for them to work on the findings of a bunch of dodgy PI,s that they have already ruled out.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by ScarletLaw on 21.12.14 16:21

Tony were the e-fits put together by the Smiths. I'm sure I read that they were put together by the spies?

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by ultimaThule on 21.12.14 18:02

@margaret wrote:That story's got pink all over it and is best ignored.drama

Absolutely, margaret.  When the apple source appears it's invariably accompanied by a plate of reconstitued pork scratchings.

It seems TM have entered Desperation Alley and are struggling to find a way out.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.12.14 21:11

@ScarletLaw wrote:Tony, were the e-fits put together by the Smiths?  I'm sure I read that they were put together by the spies?
This is a deep subject.

Who drew up the e-fits?

We are told by Henri Exton, former Head of Covert Intelligence for MI5, a convicted criminal, and sidekick of the criminal, fraudster, con-man and jailbird Kevin Halligen for four years (and whom the McCann Team paid over £500,000 for achieving nothing), that he drew up these e-fits with the help of members of the Smith family. He is clearly an unreliable source.

Next we are told on BBC Crimewatch by DCI Andy Redwood of Operation Grange that 'two of the witnesses' drew up these two e-fits. He indirectly connected these two e-fits to the alleged sighting by an Irish family, but failed to say so directly on the Crimewatch McCann show, despite over six months of preparation and £2 million being spent on the programme by the BBC and Scotland Yard. Several months later, in response to an FoI Act request, he claimed that the Smiths had indeed drawn up the two e-fits, and he further confirmed that the two e-fits were meant to be of the same man. There are multiple reasons to suggest that DCI Redwood is also an unreliable source of correct information.

AGAINST THE CLAIM that these two e-fits were drawn up by members of the Smith family are the following 12 points:

1. The Smiths only saw the man (if they did at all) for at most a few seconds

2. It was already dark when they saw him

3. The street lighting was described by them as 'weak'

4. Martin Smith was not wearing his glasses at the time anyway

5. They contradict each other about what they saw

6. All of them said they would not be able to recognise him again if they saw him

7. There was a 13-day delay before the Smiths contacted the police about their supposed sighting  

8. On 20 September Martin Smith 'phoned the police to say that, 9 days earlier, he had seen Gerry McCann on the telly and thought he was the bloke carrying Madeleine; however, just three months later he was contacted by high-profile member of the McCann Team, Brian Kennedy, and appears later to have changed his mind about his identification of Gerry McCann as the man he had seen on 3 May

9. No other member of the Smith family thought that the man they said they'd seen, looked like Gerry McCann  

10. The two e-fits look to a great many people like two entirely different blokes; the police almost never give out two contradictory e-fits to the public

11. The two e-fits show - according to computer graphics experts - clear signs of having been produced on different computer programs; why would that be the case if they were both drawn up by Exton and both based on the recollections of the Smiths?   

12. The likely date when the Smiths drew up their e-fits was spring 2008 - a year after 3 May 2007. How could they possibly, a year later, draw up detailed e-fits of a man they had only seen for a second or two in the dark, and whom they all said they would never be able to recognise if they saw him again?

Something is not at all right with these e-fits, purported to have been drawn up by the Smiths.

In fact, at least twelve things are not right about them

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Khaleesi on 21.12.14 21:18

@Tony Bennett wrote:
11. The two e-fits show - according to computer graphics experts - clear signs of having been produced on different computer programs; why would that be the case if they were both drawn up by Exton and both based on the recollections of the Smiths? 

What experts? Link, please.  

12. The likely date when the Smiths drew up their e-fits was spring 2008 - a year after 3 May 2007. How could they possibly, a year later, draw up detailed e-fits of a man they had only seen for a second or two in the dark, and whom they all said they would never be able to recognise if they saw him again?

Don't you think that the timespan of a year between the sighting and the drawing might be one of the reasons that the e-fits differ so much?
(other being that these e-fits were based on the descriptions given by two different people...)

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.12.14 21:36

@Khaleesi wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
11. The two e-fits show - according to computer graphics experts - clear signs of having been produced on different computer programs; why would that be the case if they were both drawn up by Exton and both based on the recollections of the Smiths? 

What experts? Link, please.  

REPLY: A number of professed experts made the same observation on one or more of the Smithman threads. If you go through all the threads, you will find the observations there.
 
12. The likely date when the Smiths drew up their e-fits was spring 2008 - a year after 3 May 2007. How could they possibly, a year later, draw up detailed e-fits of a man they had only seen for a second or two in the dark, and whom they all said they would never be able to recognise if they saw him again?

Don't you think that the timespan of a year between the sighting and the drawing might be one of the reasons that the e-fits differ so much?
(other being that these e-fits were based on the descriptions given by two different people...)

REPLY: The very idea that anyone, one year after seeing a bloke in the dark for a second or two, could possibly have been in a position to draw up any e-fits at all, is IMO unlikley in the extreme - and one of the strongest reasons to object to the claims made about these e-fits by DCI Redwood. It could only be guesswork at best.

I agree with your essential point that after one year after an event, if you ask two people to independently remember what they saw for a second or two in the dark, you are likely to get very different results.  But then what was the point of showing 6.7 million people in the U.K. two images which, in your own very true words, 'differ so much'

Was it a genuine attempt to find out who this bloke was?

Or was the programme, rather, a very expensive and carefully crafted event to embed deeper than ever in people's minds that Madeleine was abducted?

And at the very same time, was it a very cunning effort to move the time when the abduction took place from the embarrassingly narrow time-frame of 9.11pm to 9.14pm (pre-Crecheman) to anywhere between 9.11pm and 10.00pm (post Crecheman)?

Look back at the programme itself and see just how mightly chuffed they all were that they had extended the time-frame for the abduction from an impossible 3 mintues to a much more flexible 49 minutes.

Due to their 'careful and critical analysis', in their own boastful words.

It was not merely a 'revelation' moment.

It was much more like an 'exultation' moment...   

 
 

      

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Khaleesi on 21.12.14 21:58

[quote="Tony Bennett"]
@Khaleesi wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
11. The two e-fits show - according to computer graphics experts - clear signs of having been produced on different computer programs; why would that be the case if they were both drawn up by Exton and both based on the recollections of the Smiths? 

What experts? Link, please.  

REPLY: A number of professed experts made the same observation on one or more of the Smithman threads. If you go through all the threads, you will find the observations there.

I won't be digging through the forum to find it. You used the expert opinions as an argument, you provide a link. Thank you in advance.
 

I agree with your essential point that after one year after an event, if you ask two people to independently remember what they saw for a second or two in the dark, you are likely to get very different results.  But then what was the point of showing 6.7 million people in the U.K. two images which, in your own very true words, 'differ so much'

Was it a genuine attempt to find out who this bloke was?

Or was the programme, rather, a very expensive and carefully crafted event to embed deeper than ever in people's minds that Madeleine was abducted?

If it is all a hoax, why then the McTeam supressed these e-fits for years?

And at the very same time, was it a very cunning effort to move the time when the abduction took place from the embarrassingly narrow time-frame of 9.11pm to 9.14pm (pre-Crecheman) to anywhere between 9.11pm and 10.00pm (post Crecheman)?

Yes, telling the public to disregard Tanner's statement was sooooo very hurtful to the investigation. Telling the public that they might have seen something important much later than the Tannerman sighting (which was earlier hammered into people as an official time of Maddie's abduction) is also an incredibly crappy move on SY side... Rolling Eyes
Seriously...

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by ultimaThule on 21.12.14 22:02

I seem to recall that following the Crimewatch programme which was broadcast in October 2013 PeterMac posted a revised timeline based on the statements of the McCanns and their pals which showed that the only window of opportunity available to any abductor(s) was a matter of a couple of minutes c9.55pm.  

Unfortunately, I can't remember which of the numerous Crimewatch threads PeterM posted on but, hopefully, he may look in on this thread and revisit the subject.

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.12.14 22:21

@Khaleesi wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
REPLY: A number of professed experts made the same observation on one or more of the Smithman threads. If you go through all the threads, you will find the observations there.

I won't be digging through the forum to find [them]...

OK, your choice
 
++++++

If it is all a hoax, why then the McTeam supressed these e-fits for years?

We have been through this a thousand times before on the forum.

1. The McCanns passed the e-fits to DCI Andy Redwood in 2011 soon after Operation Grange started
(source: Carter-Ruck letter to Times Newspapers, December 2013, in response to Jonathan Calvert Sunday Times article based on Exton's claims, published 27 October 2013). Therefore any delay after that in publishing the e-fits was down to Redwood, not the McCanns

2. McCanns directly promoted the suggestion that Tannerman and Smithman were one and the same in the Channel 4/Mentorn Media documentary of May 2009

3. Thereafter, from May 2009 to now, they have carried details in a prominent place on their 'Find Madeleine' website of the sighting by 'an Irish family', always accompanied by a 30-second audio in an Irish accent describing the circumstances of the sighting

4. Kate McCann's book, 'madeleine', published May 2011, mentioned Smithman on SIX separate pages, including THREE pages giving a very detailed comparison between Tannerman and Smithman, pointing out how 'strikingly similar' they were
(no suprise that, given my thread on Wojchiech Krokowski).


@ Khaleesi
    Now that I have reminded you of the above four facts, will you please withdraw your false claim that 'the McCann Team suppressed these e-fits for years'?  (The Sunday Times made that same false claim and had to pay the McCanns £55,000 in libel damages as a result)
 

++++++

Yes, telling the public to disregard Tanner's statement was sooooo very hurtful to the investigation. Telling the public that they might have seen something important much later than the Tannerman sighting (which was earlier hammered into people as an official time of Maddie's abduction) is also an incredibly crappy move on SY side... Rolling Eyes

Seriously...

Que?

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.12.14 22:29

@ultimaThule wrote:I seem to recall that following the Crimewatch programme which was broadcast in October 2013 PeterMac posted a revised timeline based on the statements of the McCanns and their pals which showed that the only window of opportunity available to any abductor(s) was a matter of a couple of minutes c9.55pm.  
That's quite right, he did.

I think perhaps he may have narrowed the timeframe a bit too much, but it was based on such things as the time Gerry was talking to Jeremy Wilkins and on the time of Matthew Oldfield's check - PM basically said there were large chunks of the time between 9.11pm and 10.00pm when an abduction was impossible. And he was dead right about that.

But that is exactly where DCI Redwood brought his 6.7 million viewers; Madeleine was...

...abducted...

...somewhen between 9.11pm and 10.00pm...

...probably by a burglar...

...who killed Madleieine in Apartment G5A...

...and took away her body...

...was seen a few minute later by the Smiths...

..and disposed of her body somewhere.

It sounds cruel and bizarre to spell out what Redwood was implying.

But it's all there in the Crimewatch McCann Show and in his other public utterances

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Re: "Incompetent and unco-operative Portuguese held up Scotland Yard for a year by refusing to supply forensic evidence" - Sunday Mirror 21 Dec 2014

Post by Khaleesi on 21.12.14 22:40

@Tony Bennett wrote:
1. The McCanns passed the e-fits to DCI Andy Redwood in 2011 soon after Operation Grange started [/b](source: Carter-Ruck letter to Times Newspapers, December 2013, in response to Jonathan Calvert Sunday Times article based on Exton's claims, published 27 October 2013). Therefore any delay after that in publishing the e-fits was down to Redwood, not the McCanns
[/color](no suprise that, given my thread on Wojchiech Krokowski)


Did she put the e-fits in the book? No. Why if there are a hoax, created to help the McTeam to reinforce the abduction thesis?


@ Khaleesi    Now that I have reminded you of the above four facts, will you please withdraw your false claim that 'the McCann Team suppressed these e-fits for years'?  (The Sunday Times made that same false claim and had to pay the McCanns £55,000 in libel damages as a result)


Okay, they did not supress the e-fits (please dear Carter-Ruck do not sue anyone). But they weren't very keen to use them.

Yes, telling the public to disregard Tanner's statement was sooooo very hurtful to the investigation. Telling the public that they might have seen something important much later than the Tannerman sighting (which was earlier hammered into people as an official time of Maddie's abduction) is also an incredibly crappy move on SY side... Rolling Eyes

Seriously...

Que?


Irony, you know.

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