Dogs Don't Lie says Hi

Hi everyone 

                I along with the rest of you am here to find out the truth about what really happened to Madeleine McCann. I do not believe for a minute that she was abducted from any apartment. She probably met her fate there before being cruelly disposed of. I just want everyone to keep digging and digging until poor little Madeleine gets the justice that she deserves and the rightful people are sat rotting in a prison cell and that could be quite a few.

Just remember one thing though. Dogs Don't Lie. 

And here he is.  Telling the world that the dogs found blood and cadaver odour in the apartment, AND the villa, AND the car.

https://www.staffs.ac.uk/assets/Simon%20Newbery_tcm44-19866.pdf

It opens very large, so you have to reduce it to read it.

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TEXT

Blood is one of the most important and often encountered types of physical evidence linked with the forensic investigation of death and violent crime Anecdotal evidence has suggested that dogs are capable of detecting and alerting to human blood. This evidence may be presented to a court of law in order to substantiate or corroborate further forensic evidence against a suspect or suspects of a crime. The main job of cadaver detection dogs (sometimes referred to as cadaver dogs or human remains detection HRD dogs or body dogs or more accurately Victim Remains Detection Dogs) is to search for hidden or buried human bodies or body parts, however more recently, a new aspect of cadaver detection work has been used in criminal investigations in which dogs are deployed to search for blood that has been in an area or on an object for various lengths of time and is in various stages of decomposition. A frequent problem in a murder inves- tigation is the location and identification of objects, weapons and places associated with either the commission of the incident or the actual location of a victim's body. Dogs showing the capacity to detect human blood scent effectively and reliably can be used as an inexpensive screening test to assist the police in their investigations when looking for a weapon used in a crime for example or recovery of victims or perpetrators blood for DNA analysis or pin pointing crime scenes for the SOCO’s to focus upon.

Discussion
This project demonstrated the reliability of the dogs and the purposes to which they can be utilised in an ongoing investigation where detection of blood may be important. This project explored different scenarios in which the dogs may be utilised and showed that they can be reliably used indoor and out- doors and detect blood on a variety of surfaces and under different circumstances.
In this project two handlers from South Yorkshire police dog unit were used along with their licenced and certified cadaver dogs. The findings showed that an experienced forensic search dog can detect blood that is day old through to months old. Dog 1 was a male Border collie and had been working for 7 years and dog 2 a male Springer spaniel aged had only few weeks experience.
The two dogs, one novice and one veteran, used for victim remains detection, were used to detect small amounts of human blood on various surfaces; the lowest detectable amount of used in this study was 0.01ml of blood. The dogs were used in a line up and real life scenarios. Results indicated that the dogs can detect and alert to very small amounts of blood on different surfaces under various conditions. The data suggests that the potential error rate of both dogs and handlers were low and can be used in criminal cases to help other branches of forensic investigators to recover biological evidence. With an overall successful positive diagnostic ratio of id of blood scent of 17.5 for Frankie and a positive diagnostic ratio of 7.6 for Buster and with negative ratios of 38.5 and 16.4 respectively, it is clear that certain dogs have the ability to detect human blood scent in principal in both trial and scenario training. Any conclusions must be drawn carefully as by the nature of this project there were many limitations mainly due to lack of number of dogs to compare and the limitations of number of trials that could be done at any one time and within the overall time frame of this project.

Eddie and Keela, UK trained dogs with an exceptional record in their field were taken out to PDL to search.

I'm waiting for the apologisers to come up with excuses these dogs were unable to track scent in PDL due to flying in aircraft that potentially affected their sinuses along with the smell of wild rosemary, hibiscus, bougainvillea, garlic, sardines and foreigners limiting their abilities.

http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/pet-scoop-bloodhound-finds-boy-in-manhole-north-pole-reindeer-population-plummets?WT.mc_id=Outbrain;PremiumINT

Police Dog Sniffs Out Boy
A Utah family is thanking Copper, a police Bloodhound, for finding 6-year-old Kollin Bailey trapped in a manhole Friday. Bailey was flying a kite in his yard when he tripped and fell backward into an open 10-foot manhole. He was knocked out in the fall, and when he awoke, he started screaming for help, but he couldn’t be heard. When he didn’t come home, his concerned parents called the West Valley City Police for help. Their search party included Copper, who found Bailey in just 20 minutes. A police officer climbed into the hole to help Bailey, who was then taken to the hospital to be treated for a broken arm and a mild concussion. He’d been in the hole for about two hours. On Saturday, he and his family made it a priority to personally thank Copper with an early Christmas gift — a stocking filled with treats. "He saved my life," Bailey told Utah’s KUTV. "I was really scared. I thought I was going to miss Christmas.” — Read it at the New York Daily News

Is there anything that shows that "human blood" dogs only alert to blood that is human, and not, for example, pig blood?

Since most dogs are trained on pig corpses but seem able to find dead humans I can only assume that dead pig and dead human smells much alike to a dog.

Evidence in general would be welcome.  Evidence re Keela in particular would be pure gold.

Please don't point me at Martin Grime's claims. 

Is there any independent evidence that blood dogs only alert on HUMAN blood?

Elça Craig wrote:Is there anything that shows that "human blood" dogs only alert to blood that is human, and not, for example, pig blood?

Since most dogs are trained on pig corpses but seem able to find dead humans I can only assume that dead pig and dead human smells much alike to a dog.

Evidence in general would be welcome.  Evidence re Keela in particular would be pure gold.

Please don't point me at Martin Grime's claims. 

Is there any independent evidence that blood dogs only alert on HUMAN blood?

(Not withstanding confusing 'Blood dogs' alerting to blood being different to 'Cadaver Dogs' alerting to corpses...)

I'd never given it a thought.

I just Googled "are cadaver dogs trained on pigs or humans" and the top search return is from today's UK Newspaper 'The Independent', (the name kinda gives it away...it's not as shill-like and full of lies as most UK newspapers seem to be).

I'm impressed you spotted the article so soon (if that's what prompted your posting?) If so, with skills like that I'd recommend a job in 'Media Management'!!  OMG! Thinking about it...If I were remotely paranoid I'd hone in on the fact you used the word 'Independent' in your posting . Damn that paranoia... I wish I'd never done that course on Forensic Linguistics  ).  

Anyway... It's an interesting article.

It's late... but a quick read of it states "A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse".

The article does go on to say that, at least in one instance, a cadaver dog signalled to a cache of pig bones. However, without a thorough investigation into the case mentioned no one can say if the 'hidey hole' where the pigs bones were placed also ever contained Human remains. One must be careful of the risk of either journalistic misinformation or, if true, cross-contamination. 

Maybe someone is already on record as saying that pig remains might have been:
(i) behind the sofa,
(ii) in the cupboard (where the 'Blue Holdall' was?),
(iii) in the hire car,
(iv) on KH's clothes (but wasn't that whiff explained away as being due to contact with corpses before the hols?... Phoooweee! I'd have thoroughly washed my clothes if that wee me!!! I'm not the cleanest of people, it is true...but I do make an occasional effort!! :0 ) 

... Or maybe not?   I'll have to re-read what they've said!!

Maybe, if someone linked to TM is reading these threads, they'll be appropriately nudged to recall the fact it was indeed pig flesh in those places...  and accordingly clarify their statements to OG if/when they get a knock on the door.

(as always... I'm just anally retentive and for the sake of truth just like to see all the 'i's suitably dotted and the 't's suitably crossed)

Knitted wrote:

Elça Craig wrote:Is there anything that shows that "human blood" dogs only alert to blood that is human, and not, for example, pig blood?

Since most dogs are trained on pig corpses but seem able to find dead humans I can only assume that dead pig and dead human smells much alike to a dog.

Evidence in general would be welcome.  Evidence re Keela in particular would be pure gold.

Please don't point me at Martin Grime's claims. 

Is there any independent evidence that blood dogs only alert on HUMAN blood?

(Not withstanding confusing 'Blood dogs' alerting to blood being different to 'Cadaver Dogs' alerting to corpses...)

I'd never given it a thought.

I just Googled "are cadaver dogs trained on pigs or humans" and the top search return is from today's UK Newspaper 'The Independent', (the name kinda gives it away...it's not as shill-like and full of lies as most UK newspapers seem to be).

I'm impressed you spotted the article so soon (if that's what prompted your posting?) If so, with skills like that I'd recommend a job in 'Media Management'!!  OMG! Thinking about it...If I were remotely paranoid I'd hone in on the fact you used the word 'Independent' in your posting . Damn that paranoia... I wish I'd never done that course on Forensic Linguistics  ).  

Anyway... It's an interesting article.

It's late... but a quick read of it states "A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse".

The article does go on to say that, at least in one instance, a cadaver dog signalled to a cache of pig bones. However, without a thorough investigation into the case mentioned no one can say if the 'hidey hole' where the pigs bones were placed also ever contained Human remains. One must be careful of the risk of either journalistic misinformation or, if true, cross-contamination. 

Maybe someone is already on record as saying that pig remains might have been:
(i) behind the sofa,
(ii) in the cupboard (where the 'Blue Holdall' was?),
(iii) in the hire car,
(iv) on KH's clothes (but wasn't that whiff explained away as being due to contact with corpses before the hols?... Phoooweee! I'd have thoroughly washed my clothes if that wee me!!! I'm not the cleanest of people, it is true...but I do make an occasional effort!! :0 ) 

... Or maybe not?   I'll have to re-read what they've said!!

Maybe, if someone linked to TM is reading these threads, they'll be appropriately nudged to recall the fact it was indeed pig flesh in those places...  and accordingly clarify their statements to OG if/when they get a knock on the door.

(as always... I'm just anally retentive and for the sake of truth just like to see all the 'i's suitably dotted and the 't's suitably crossed)

I haven't seen the article.  I'm coming at this from a totally different angle.  Over at shininginluz I have been working through the places the McCanns 'lived' and where the dog or dogs did not alert, on the basis that any credible theory needs to fit this.

To save you reading several posts, a 'brief' summary is as follows.

5A. Dogs alert behind sofa.  Eddie alerts in parent's bedroom, on the rear patio, and in the garden of 5A below the patio.  Complex to explain and Keela gets nothing from these.  Neither Eddie nor Keela alerts in the children's bedroom, though Eddie will later alert to Cuddle Cat in 27 Rua das Flores, and Cuddle Cat was on Madeleine's bed in 5A.  Explanation = transfer?

5H Eddie does not alert, Keela not deployed.  As the McCanns spent a very limited time in the Payne's apartment on 4 May, the simplest explanation is there was insufficient time for transfer.

4G.  The McCanns spent 2 months in 4G.  The red airplane top that would be flagged up in 27 Rua das Flores was definitely in 4G.  Kate's top, as flagged up in 27 was also definitely in 4G.  Cuddle Cat must have been in 4G.  Eddie alerted to - nothing in 4G.

By the way, for me this kills any possibility whatsoever that alerts can be linked to dead bodies encountered by Kate before the holiday.  2 months in 4G and 4G is clean is a significant discontinuity that has to be explained.  It is impossible to ignore.

27 Rua das Flores.  Eddie alerts to Cuddle Cat, Kate's top, Kate's slacks and the red airplane T-shirt.  If Eddie is right, then I can only assume at least 3 of these became 'infected' after the McCanns moved to 27, otherwise as all 3 were in 4G, 4G should smell as well, and it got a clean bill of health.

That leaves the Renault Scenic, where Eddie alerted at the door seal and later to the car key.  Keela alerted to the key and to the 'boot' of the car.

Eddie is NOT a cadaver dog, and I have no reason to believe he alerted to 'cadaverine', as opposed to other decomposition elements.  If anyone has any evidence that Eddie alerts only to 'cadaverine', I'd love to see it, it would be pure gold.

Martin Grime is crystal clear that Eddie would alert (amongst other things) to decomposing blood (i.e. dead blood, not living blood), and the alert from the car key proves that point.  The FSS allocated the car key traces to Gerry McCann, who is definitely not a cadaver.  Whether what Eddie smelled was cadaverine, or one of the other products of decomposition, or a cocktail thereof, I cannot say, unless someone can point me at what Eddie was tested on for false positives and false negatives.

After all that (sorry!) let me return to my original point, which is the human blood dog.  Apart from Martin Grime, who asserts that Keela alerts only to blood and blood that is human, is there any evidence that this is correct?

The FSS tested lots of bits and pieces for DNA, without coming up with what material the source was made of.  The FSS did only a few tests for blood and failed to get a positive hit in any case.

Therefore, I am trying to get a pointer on Keela's capability.  If I knew that she reacted to blood, and that said blood had to be human, I could rule out for the Scenic boot the spilled - what was it - prawns, steak and something else, but not even pork, which is what I would have gone with if I was trying to say the dogs were getting it wrong.

I would love to know whether Keela alerted to human blood in the boot of the Scenic, or whether it could be something else.

Thanks for the article reference.  I'll pop off and read it, though if you did Forensic Linguistics you should understand that cadaver dog and cadaverine link the case to a corpse, whereas the only positive link from forensics is to Gerry McCann, who is not a corpse.

My initial opinion all those years ago was like everyone elses 'poor parents' when those first shots came up on the screen.

it didn't take long to realise that things weren't quite as they seemed although I wasn't quite sure why I felt that.

To cut to the point that I want to make without going through what many have before...I believe it is an elaborate hoax instigated by the government and the media of the time!  Hence the lack of  'Maddie DNA' in the apartment. How deep this hoax goes between the governments of uk usa and portugal and whoever else I have no idea!

The dogs?  i believe them totally! They cannot lie! but if a hoax is intended and things are going wrong for those at the top who have instigated it! What would be the logical solution to it? Plant some cadaver and make it real! Bearing in mind cadaver dog evidence is irrelevant in Portugal! And the powers that be can sell out the mccanns at any opportunity if they choose to.  I think this drama went way beyond anyones hopes and made a lotof money for some who are laughing all the way to the bank.

Us minions that see it differently are in the minority and are irrelevant and no threat to the higher powers.  

if you think you can make a difference and start a revolution...well good luck to you cos we are all f**ked!

First, from a newbie myself, welcome to the forum.

Second, please don't make this your only post.  It made me think about things and I realised I got it wrong in my earlier post, so well done.

The FSS linked a number of things to specific people, not just the Scenic car key to Gerry McCann, so my terminology was definitely off.

The FSS linked one of the tile segments in 5A to Madeleine, and given that said tile segment was in the area that Eddie alerted and Keela alerted, anyone who ignores this ignores it at their own peril.

On the media front though, the media went after several folks, including the McCanns, and got severely frazzled in court.  A media conspiracy from day 1 is unlikely.

Hopefully you will see that your input is important, as it changes views and influences people.

Cheers,
Elça.

Elça Craig wrote:
On the media front though, the media went after several folks, including the McCanns, and got severely frazzled in court.  A media conspiracy from day 1 is unlikely.

In fact not one ever got as far as court.
They were "out of court" settlements, which sadly meant that the facts were never pursued.
TB's case was very cleverly manipulated by C-R, so that it became a procedural issue, and the "facts" were never tested -
(apart from his question and the answer which laid down that C-R had no evidence at all of abduction.)
Even the McCann - v - Amaral case in Portugal is not on the substantive issue of libel, it is about money

They have VERY good lawyers

PeterMac wrote:

Elça Craig wrote:
On the media front though, the media went after several folks, including the McCanns, and got severely frazzled in court.  A media conspiracy from day 1 is unlikely.

In fact not one ever got as far as court.
They were "out of court" settlements, which sadly meant that the facts were never pursued.
TB's case was very cleverly manipulated by C-R, so that it became a procedural issue, and the "facts" were never tested -
(apart from his question and the answer which laid down that C-R had no evidence at all of abduction.)
Even the McCann - v - Amaral case in Portugal is not on the substantive issue of libel, it is about money

They have VERY good lawyers

It does make one wonder why the MSM are prepared to settle out of court rather than defend through the court.
Off topic I know.

WMD wrote:
It does make one wonder why the MSM are prepared to settle out of court rather than defend through the court.
Off topic I know.

Because it would cost far more to defend it, Remember TB's case had already racked up costs of a third of a million, before they even started,
and they used that "fact" to blackmail him - legally of course.
So to pay over half a million, and put it on the front cover of the next week's editions, means you get it back very quickly.
BUT, somewhere somehow they want that money back, from the McCanns and the T7.
I would guess that TB wants his money back as well, with interest.

PeterMac wrote:

WMD wrote:
It does make one wonder why the MSM are prepared to settle out of court rather than defend through the court.
Off topic I know.

Because it would cost far more to defend it,   Remember TB's case had already racked up costs of a third of a million, before they even started,
and they used that "fact" to blackmail him - legally of course.
So to pay over half a million, and put it on the front cover of the next week's editions, means you get it back very quickly.
BUT, somewhere somehow they want that money back, from the McCanns and the T7.
I would guess that TB wants his money back as well, with interest.

It will be interesting to see where the cost of the damages trial in Portugal will rest.

sammi1967 wrote:My initial opinion all those years ago was like everyone elses 'poor parents' when those first shots came up on the screen.

it didn't take long to realise that things weren't quite as they seemed although I wasn't quite sure why I felt that.

To cut to the point that I want to make without going through what many have before...I believe it is an elaborate hoax instigated by the government and the media of the time!  Hence the lack of  'Maddie DNA' in the apartment. How deep this hoax goes between the governments of uk usa and portugal and whoever else I have no idea!

The dogs?  i believe them totally! They cannot lie! but if a hoax is intended and things are going wrong for those at the top who have instigated it! What would be the logical solution to it? Plant some cadaver and make it real! Bearing in mind cadaver dog evidence is irrelevant in Portugal! And the powers that be can sell out the mccanns at any opportunity if they choose to.  I think this drama went way beyond anyones hopes and made a lotof money for some who are laughing all the way to the bank.

Us minions that see it differently are in the minority and are irrelevant and no threat to the higher powers.  

if you think you can make a difference and start a revolution...well good luck to you cos we are all f**ked!

I think it was a media hoax. And the high levels of protection given to the McCanns indicates that there was/is Government involvement. Why were the dogs brought in, though, if it was all intended to be a hoax? I can only conclude that something went wrong that week. This would account for the mess-up over time-lines, the inconsistencies in the statements, the unjemmied shutters and so on.