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Libel trial summing up - daily mail

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by whatsupdoc on 12.12.14 10:22

TexMac wrote:
@whatsupdoc wrote:Quote
After this week, Smithman will be the central focus of glamour-girl, Vogue-featured, 'I-paint-my-nails-to-impress-the-men' DCI Nicola Wall


I find that funny , Tony.
I find it disgusting - extremely sexist, and showing a dreadful bias and a total lack of respect for DCI Wall even before she starts her new role.
If we all want justice for Madeleine, shouldn't EVERYONE be 100% supportive and encouraging of DCI Wall?

TexMac... You are right but you went too deep. 

Did DCI Wall really say that or was it some journo writing for shoe-size-IQ readers? It all sounded out of place for a DCI.

I fear the trench has been dug too deep now and DCI Wall will be treading water till her next promotion and early retirement.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by jeanmonroe on 12.12.14 10:59

TB wrote: "I do not think these are the actions of a police officer that we should take seriously. She has been in the Met 25 years, her career has obviosuly stalled at the modest level of DCI, and she has less than 5 years to go to retirement. What better option than to do the bidding of boss-of-the-Met Bernard Hogan-Howe and continue to run this corrupt investigation, which is clearly getting nowhere, for another two years - then get a handy promotion to Detective Superintendent and so nicely enhance her police pension, wnhich she can take in 2019."
-------------------------------------------------------------

So, possibly akin to?

(EX) DCI DRISCOLL: " what is corruption?, i mean is corruption going behind a pub somewhere and getting an envelope full of 50 quid notes and thats corruption, or is corruption that you don't go down a certain path, you don't follow a certain inquiry, and therefore YOU MAKE SOMEONE VERY HAPPY THAT YOU HAVEN'T FOLLOWED THAT INQUIRY and THEREFORE, YOUR NEXT PROMOTION IS EASIER FOR YOU? Your CV looks a bit more glamourous by the time you finish your career and at the end of your pension you could have earnt considerably more than what you'd ever stuff in an envelope so what is corruption...."

eta: THAT DCI Wall 'Vogue' interview, 'article.'

http://www.vogue.co.uk/news/2013/04/04/may-2013-vogue-true-crime.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by PeterMac on 12.12.14 11:11

I would post the links to my interview with GQ and Esquire


but modesty forbids. Mr

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by Guest on 12.12.14 11:13

@whatsupdoc wrote:
TexMac wrote:
@whatsupdoc wrote:Quote
After this week, Smithman will be the central focus of glamour-girl, Vogue-featured, 'I-paint-my-nails-to-impress-the-men' DCI Nicola Wall


I find that funny , Tony.
I find it disgusting - extremely sexist, and showing a dreadful bias and a total lack of respect for DCI Wall even before she starts her new role.
If we all want justice for Madeleine, shouldn't EVERYONE be 100% supportive and encouraging of DCI Wall?

TexMac... You are right but you went too deep. 

Did DCI Wall really say that or was it some journo writing for shoe-size-IQ readers? It all sounded out of place for a DCI.


I fear the trench has been dug too deep now and DCI Wall will be treading water till her next promotion and early retirement.

http://www.vogue.co.uk/news/2013/04/04/may-2013-vogue-true-crime

She didn't say anything of the sort. She actually said this:

As plainclothes officers, the detectives are united in their determination to look good. Wall especially enjoys playing with her femininity, if only to shake up the stuffier factions of the Met that still exist. "I usually wear a heel, and I always paint my nails," she says with a toss of her well-groomed head. "They usually brighten a day." 

The bits in quotes are her actual words, obviously, and the rest are the thoughts of the journalist. Wall dresses nicely and polishes her nails to bring a bit of colour into the day. The journalist adds it brings a spark to the old-fashioned elements within the Met. No mention of men at all and certainly no indication of any need or desire to impress men at all.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any professional woman dressing as a female in feminine clothes and with a feminine style. She's a woman fgs. Or should she be held in higher regard if she supressed the fact she is a woman and dressed butch to resemble the men?

Vogue is an upmarket fashion magazine.  It talks about style and what people wear. The article was written to underline that women do not have to compromise their appearance in order to compete and perform in postions of authority and responsibility. And quite right too.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by plebgate on 12.12.14 11:22

Why can't people just get on with their jobs and not give a care about what men or other women think about them.   Why do so many "career" women feel they have to go on tv or give magazine interviews to tell us about their need to be seen as feminine or wear make up etc.

I couldn't care less whether she wears nail polish, has her hair flowing or wears 5 inch heels, get on with the job in hand is all I care about.    Do the best for Maddie end of.

TB has posted a good deal to be thinking about so let's hope that this thread is not going to be derailed because of a comment (his opinion) about the new Chief of the investigation.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by PMR on 12.12.14 11:23

I'm quite sure DCI Wall was told she was doing the Vogue interview, and that same interview was approved before publication . No issue of carpeting and also there will always be journalistic spin in any feature. Of course admitting that wouldn't suit a lot on here would it

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by plebgate on 12.12.14 11:37

Snipped from Montclair's post -


You all seem to forget that the final allegations made by Ricardo Afonso, the lawyer representing the McCann children, were totally irrelevant to the case that was being discussed, that is the damages done by the book to the family. So, I doubt that the judge will even take into consideration what he said. "


Yes, I believe that too and one of the defendant's solicitors said as much at the legal arguments hearing.

If madam judge wasn't having Mr's comments about the dogs how can she entertain RA's comments?

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by Woofer on 12.12.14 11:40

I wish people would get their facts straight before jumping to conclusions.

The Vogue piece was about women in the MET from a practical dress perspective AND it mentioned 3 or 4 example women, of which DCI Wall was one.  And saying that she paints her nails does NOT in any way translate into painting her nails to attract men.  Why are some people on here trying to discredit the lady before she has even taken over?  Propagandists in action I see.

Was DCI Wall carpeted? - of course not

Were they all carpeted? - of course not.

Would they have consulted their superiors before doing it? - of course.  It would have been considered good PR, especially for the readership of Vogue.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by Joss on 12.12.14 11:43

WMD wrote:
@Joss wrote:
@Realist wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@Realist wrote:The part of Goncala's theory that I've always found to be implausible (at least according to his video and I presume the book is the same) is that he appears to be of the opinion that the McCann's daughter died accidentally and her body was disposed of between the hrs. of 8.30 and 10 pm. on the third inst. May 2007.

As previously stated, it just isn't realistic that such a series of serious events could occur in so short a time span. There just wasn't the opportunity for Madelaine to meet with a fatal accident, one of the McCanns returning to the apt. to find her dead,  clean up the apt, concoct a phoney kidnapping story, make the decision to dispense with the body in the presence of their friends,  and dispose of it with no apparent means of transport so methodically that it would never be found. Again, as previously stated, maybe he had libel in mind when writing the book and was giving the McCanns a certain degree of the benefit of the doubt as opposed to what he really thinks occurred.

As for Gerry McCann stating what other than an abduction could have been the reason for his daughter's disappearance  is naivety personified, because there could be any number of other obvious reasons, all of which by default would involve himself, his wife and their friends.
I agree.

IMO Tuesday night was the start of the demise.

Precisely and it flies in the face of the dog's scentings, because a corpse would have had to have been in the apt. for a longer period of time than Goncala's synopsis allows for.
I have been told that a corpse does not have to be in place for very long at all for dogs to detect cadaver evidence? I would of thought at least an hour or two, but that is not accurate. I have researched it on the internet but could not find much that says accurately how long it would take for dogs to detect that kind of evidence, so it seems there are some discrepencies with it.
I've seen mentioned that cadaver scent can start after just 10 minutes,the trouble is,no one knows just how sensitive the dogs noses are and we have no way of telling exactly.Also along the same lines.There are variables in age,sex,cause of death,which is why one supposes the dogs can't be relied upon alone.
I don't really think the time that a body can be detected after death by the dogs that are highly trained for such a job really matters, but the fact they alert to cadaver in a very well trained dog is reason IMO to take very serious note of their findings, because they are pretty much always right. I think they are a very valuable means of assisting police in their work of investigating crime, and i have the highest regard for what they do, they are amazing animals, not just for detecting the deceased, but they are also used successfully for many other types of work as well.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by endgame on 12.12.14 11:50

@plebgate wrote:I couldn't care less whether she wears nail polish, has her hair flowing or wears 5 inch heels, get on with the job in hand is all I care about.    Do the best for Maddie end of.
I agree but the other point of view much expressed here that because she is new, a woman, a homicide detective, gives interviews to Vogue etc she could turn into some kind of loner maverick on a mission who is going to create a complete volte face in the investigation and head it off in another direction is implausible, The investigation has been going on for 3 1/2 years. Whoever was chosen will be expected to continue the work which Andy Redwood has been pursuing and what will determine the outcome is the overall view of the Met not the views of an individual officer. Organisational culture and hierarchy predominate in the Met. DCI Wall is not going to stand up against this and trash the work AR has done. She is a Met officer and, as such, comes from the same mould as all other Met officers. Why should we expect any change?.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by plebgate on 12.12.14 12:05

I can't argue with the point you make endgame, but somewhere deep within me I am hoping new broom and all that, but there is an old saying, those who live on hope die of hunger.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by Joss on 12.12.14 12:05

@plebgate wrote:Why can't people just get on with their jobs and not give a care about what men or other women think about them.   Why do so many "career" women feel they have to go on tv or give magazine interviews to tell us about their need to be seen as feminine or wear make up etc.

I couldn't care less whether she wears nail polish, has her hair flowing or wears 5 inch heels, get on with the job in hand is all I care about.    Do the best for Maddie end of.

TB has posted a good deal to be thinking about so let's hope that this thread is not going to be derailed because of a comment (his opinion) about the new Chief of the investigation.
I agree, it matters not what she looks like or how she competes in a mainly male oriented position, but it would of been more useful to write an article about her investigative skills as a DCI over the time of her lengthy career, and maybe a bit about her perhaps new approach in this very lengthy ongoing case of a missing little girl Madeleine McCann, and how she might hope to reach a conclusion into what happened to Maddie, IMO.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by plebgate on 12.12.14 12:08

@Woofer wrote:I wish people would get their facts straight before jumping to conclusions.

The Vogue piece was about women in the MET from a practical dress perspective AND it mentioned 3 or 4 example women, of which DCI Wall was one.  And saying that she paints her nails does NOT in any way translate into painting her nails to attract men.  Why are some people on here trying to discredit the lady before she has even taken over?  Propagandists in action I see.

Was DCI Wall carpeted? - of course not

Were they all carpeted? - of course not.

Would they have consulted their superiors before doing it? - of course.  It would have been considered good PR, especially for the readership of Vogue.
People are allowed to post their opinions without being called  propagandists Woofer.

Looks to me as though you have been waiting for TB to make a post so you can jump right in.  lol.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by Joss on 12.12.14 12:17

@Tony Bennett wrote:
TexMac wrote:
@whatsupdoc wrote:Quote
After this week, Smithman will be the central focus of glamour-girl, Vogue-featured, 'I-paint-my-nails-to-impress-the-men' DCI Nicola Wall

I find that funny , Tony.
I find it disgusting - extremely sexist, and showing a dreadful bias and a total lack of respect for DCI Wall even before she starts her new role.
If we all want justice for Madeleine, shouldn't EVERYONE be 100% supportive and encouraging of DCI Wall?
NO.

Instead, they should be writing to the Independent Police Complaints Commission demanding that DCI Andy Redwood be investigated for perverting the course of justice for his IMO obviously bogus attempt to try to pass off two e-fits of very different blokes as the same man - and moreover claiming that any of the Smiths could possibly produce such clear e-fits as those two, given that

* they had seen him over a year before (allegedly) drawing up those e-fits
* it was dark when they saw him
* the street lighting was week
* they only saw him for a few seconds
* his face was down and partly hidden
* they all waited 13 days in the midst of an international publicity blitz before telling the police about their sighting.

Moreover, as we all know:

1. DCI Andy Redwood accepted a remit - given by someone the Met Police refuses to reveal - that he was only to investigate an abduction, and
2. His boss, Det Chief Supt Hamish Campbell, was the disgraced detective who fitted up Barry Bulsara/George for the killing of Jill Dando by a professional hit-man, a crime never solved, and quite possibly carreid out by Britiosh secuirty services.

As for DCI Nicola Wall, IF she had insisted on the remit being changed before being appointed, yes, I would support her.

But she did not. She is stuck with a remit only of investigating an abduction, therefore IMO she has accepted the poisoned chalice, and no good will come of her appointment.

And I stand by my comments about DCI Nicola Wall, which were not in any way sexist. I would have said exactly the same had any male admitted - as Wall did - that she glammed up herself up to impress the males in her office, and appeared in a celebrity magazine - as Wall did in Vogue.  

I do not think these are the actions of a police officer that we should take seriously. She has been in the Met 25 years, her career has obviosuly stalled at the modest level of DCI, and she has less than 5 years to go to retirement. What better option than to do the bidding of boss-of-the-Met Bernard Hogan-Howe and continue to run this corrupt investigation, which is clearly getting nowhere, for another two years - then get a handy promotion to Detective Superintendent and so nicely enhance her police pension, wnhich she can take in 2019.
Excellent points TB, and i think you are spot on in what you say.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by Guest on 12.12.14 12:18

@Joss wrote:
WMD wrote:
I've seen mentioned that cadaver scent can start after just 10 minutes,the trouble is,no one knows just how sensitive the dogs noses are and we have no way of telling exactly.Also along the same lines.There are variables in age,sex,cause of death,which is why one supposes the dogs can't be relied upon alone.
I don't really think the time that a body can be detected after death by the dogs that are highly trained for such a job really matters, but the fact they alert to cadaver in a very well trained dog is reason IMO to take very serious note of their findings, because they are pretty much always right. I think they are a very valuable means of assisting police in their work of investigating crime, and i have the highest regard for what they do, they are amazing animals, not just for detecting the deceased, but they are also used successfully for many other types of work as well.
I agree,but what I'm saying is the dogs can't be relied upon solely,Various timelines have been purported and unless or until someone says that the body was put there at such and such a time then there is no corroboration,or with out further forensics which hasn't been forthcoming so far.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by Guest on 12.12.14 12:31

@Tony Bennett wrote:
TexMac wrote:
@whatsupdoc wrote:Quote
After this week, Smithman will be the central focus of glamour-girl, Vogue-featured, 'I-paint-my-nails-to-impress-the-men' DCI Nicola Wall

I find that funny , Tony.
I find it disgusting - extremely sexist, and showing a dreadful bias and a total lack of respect for DCI Wall even before she starts her new role.
If we all want justice for Madeleine, shouldn't EVERYONE be 100% supportive and encouraging of DCI Wall?
...
And I stand by my comments about DCI Nicola Wall, which were not in any way sexist.
...
You may think they were in no way sexist, and you may have not intended them to be sexist, however it is for the reader to decide.  And as a reader of your words, I (and I imagine most readers of your words) found the words you wrote to be extremely sexist.

The rest of your post clearly confirms your bias and lack of respect for DCI Wall.  I find it shocking to read so much smearing and pre-judging of this senior authority person.  For justice's sake, and for Madeleine's sake, please let's all get behind the new Operation Grange leader with positive enthusiasm, encouragement, and words of support.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by Joss on 12.12.14 12:38

WMD wrote:
@Joss wrote:
WMD wrote:
I've seen mentioned that cadaver scent can start after just 10 minutes,the trouble is,no one knows just how sensitive the dogs noses are and we have no way of telling exactly.Also along the same lines.There are variables in age,sex,cause of death,which is why one supposes the dogs can't be relied upon alone.
I don't really think the time that a body can be detected after death by the dogs that are highly trained for such a job really matters, but the fact they alert to cadaver in a very well trained dog is reason IMO to take very serious note of their findings, because they are pretty much always right. I think they are a very valuable means of assisting police in their work of investigating crime, and i have the highest regard for what they do, they are amazing animals, not just for detecting the deceased, but they are also used successfully for many other types of work as well.
I agree,but what I'm saying is the dogs can't be relied upon solely,Various timelines have been purported and unless or until someone says that the body was put there at such and such a time then there is no corroboration,or with out further forensics which hasn't been forthcoming so far.
I think with the forensics they have already had on this case and the dog evidence, they could probably piece together a theory of Madeleine having died in 5A, and also with no evidence of an abduction it would also make that theory a more likely probability, and a stronger case for the prosecution. Cases have been prosecuted without a body successfully with Circumstantial evidence alone, and i think without all the political interference in this case, it would more than likely have already been through a Trial by now.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by Guest on 12.12.14 12:42

@Joss wrote:
WMD wrote:
@Joss wrote:
WMD wrote:
I've seen mentioned that cadaver scent can start after just 10 minutes,the trouble is,no one knows just how sensitive the dogs noses are and we have no way of telling exactly.Also along the same lines.There are variables in age,sex,cause of death,which is why one supposes the dogs can't be relied upon alone.
I don't really think the time that a body can be detected after death by the dogs that are highly trained for such a job really matters, but the fact they alert to cadaver in a very well trained dog is reason IMO to take very serious note of their findings, because they are pretty much always right. I think they are a very valuable means of assisting police in their work of investigating crime, and i have the highest regard for what they do, they are amazing animals, not just for detecting the deceased, but they are also used successfully for many other types of work as well.
I agree,but what I'm saying is the dogs can't be relied upon solely,Various timelines have been purported and unless or until someone says that the body was put there at such and such a time then there is no corroboration,or with out further forensics which hasn't been forthcoming so far.
I think with the forensics they have already had on this case and the dog evidence, they could probably piece together a theory of Madeleine having died in 5A, and also with no evidence of an abduction it would also make that theory a more likely probability, and a stronger case for the prosecution. Cases have been prosecuted without a body successfully with Circumstantial evidence alone, and i think without all the political interference in this case, it would more than likely have already been through a Trial by now.
I've underlined the political bit,unless this removed then the case will never be solved.Wonder what Amaral thinks of the latest interviews.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by Guest on 12.12.14 12:44

@aquila wrote:
@Tony,

As a female, I didn't find your remarks sexist. Since when did being a relatively senior female police officer lead to an interview with Vogue? It's not professional, it undermines the role of female officers and to my mind brings the uniform into celebrity status. I'm surprised Nicola wasn't carpeted for that interview - well that's of course if the powers within the MET give a toss.

Theresa May with Kitten heels and a new head of OG with an interview about her femininity in Vogue under her belt arriving in PDL with long blonde hair not tied back.

Gawd help Madeleine. The media circus goes on and on.
(my bold)

As you have piled on the sexist remarks, aquila, it doesn't surprise me that you didn't find Tony's words sexist.

Many would disagree.

Let's give this new OG leader a chance, let's not pre-judge, and let's provide some positive encouragement for OG efforts!

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by PMR on 12.12.14 12:50

If DCI Wall had been a six foot six male rugby player with a crew cut and a 100% solve rate , they still would have been greeted with derision and a stupid nick name on here.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by Joss on 12.12.14 12:55

WMD wrote:
@Joss wrote:
WMD wrote:
@Joss wrote:
WMD wrote:
I've seen mentioned that cadaver scent can start after just 10 minutes,the trouble is,no one knows just how sensitive the dogs noses are and we have no way of telling exactly.Also along the same lines.There are variables in age,sex,cause of death,which is why one supposes the dogs can't be relied upon alone.
I don't really think the time that a body can be detected after death by the dogs that are highly trained for such a job really matters, but the fact they alert to cadaver in a very well trained dog is reason IMO to take very serious note of their findings, because they are pretty much always right. I think they are a very valuable means of assisting police in their work of investigating crime, and i have the highest regard for what they do, they are amazing animals, not just for detecting the deceased, but they are also used successfully for many other types of work as well.
I agree,but what I'm saying is the dogs can't be relied upon solely,Various timelines have been purported and unless or until someone says that the body was put there at such and such a time then there is no corroboration,or with out further forensics which hasn't been forthcoming so far.
I think with the forensics they have already had on this case and the dog evidence, they could probably piece together a theory of Madeleine having died in 5A, and also with no evidence of an abduction it would also make that theory a more likely probability, and a stronger case for the prosecution. Cases have been prosecuted without a body successfully with Circumstantial evidence alone, and i think without all the political interference in this case, it would more than likely have already been through a Trial by now.
I've underlined the political bit,unless this removed then the case will never be solved.Wonder what Amaral thinks of the latest interviews.
Yes exactly. I have never seen another missing child case like this one, its so unreal. Yes it would be interesting to get Mr. Amaral's point of view about that.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by jeanmonroe on 12.12.14 12:55

GM: 'Where... where, you know... where is... where... where is... where is... where is the child? We're looking for that evidence. Where is the child? What OTHER 'explanation' can 'explain' how she's not here?'

10th February 2010.


Exactly, Gerry!

What OTHER 'explanation', indeed, can THERE be?

We are all looking for, 'OTHER' 'explanation(s)'.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by rustyjames on 12.12.14 13:30

@Joss wrote:
@plebgate wrote:Why can't people just get on with their jobs and not give a care about what men or other women think about them.   Why do so many "career" women feel they have to go on tv or give magazine interviews to tell us about their need to be seen as feminine or wear make up etc.

I couldn't care less whether she wears nail polish, has her hair flowing or wears 5 inch heels, get on with the job in hand is all I care about.    Do the best for Maddie end of.

TB has posted a good deal to be thinking about so let's hope that this thread is not going to be derailed because of a comment (his opinion) about the new Chief of the investigation.
I agree, it matters not what she looks like or how she competes in a mainly male oriented position, but it would of been more useful to write an article about her investigative skills as a DCI over the time of her lengthy career, and maybe a bit about her perhaps new approach in this very lengthy ongoing case of a missing little girl Madeleine McCann, and how she might hope to reach a conclusion into what happened to Maddie, IMO.

For the record I also agree - it makes no difference to me what she looks like or what she wears - I'll leave what I consider irrelevant, judgemental and shallow comments to missbeetle et al.

I also think she should be judged on her actions and not those of her predecessors - even for those we don't really know everything that has gone on behind the scenes.

With regard to the Vogue article and there not being content about her approach to the Madeleine McCann investigation - that is because it was written back in April 2013 way before her association with the case.

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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by Woofer on 12.12.14 13:46

Just to counter the negative comments about DCI Wall, here is a pic Peter posted on her thread:-

She is obviously held in high regard. I doubt whether P D James would be associating with a `woman who paints her nails to impress the men` or `has been carpeted for doing a PR piece for the MET in Vogue magazine` !


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Re: Libel trial summing up - daily mail

Post by tiny on 12.12.14 13:59

I don't care if she has a pimple on her ass as long as she gets the mccanns and tapas back in for a little chat that will do for me...at the moment

tiny

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