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Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Realist on 27.11.14 17:22

@Joss wrote:
Not necessarily. I am saying that in their absence Madeleine possibly had a fatal accident, and had they been there that would not have happened if there was adult supervision at all times.

But that isn't possible with the McCann's time line of events. Remember, they both stated she was alive and well when they left the apartment at around 8.30 pm. Further, Gerry then returned at  9.05 pm and not only stated she was okay, but thinking how lucky he was to have such a beautiful daughter.

That would most definitely not have allowed Kate to return at 10. pm to find her daughter had met with a fatal accident whilst at the same time contacting Gerry, making the decision to dispose of the body in the presence of their friends and disposing of it so methodically that it has never been discovered. I think we can safely dispense with the theory that Madelaine suffered a fatal accident whilst the McCanns weren't present, certainly the night she was supposed to have gone missing, anyway.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by jeanmonroe on 27.11.14 18:10

Realist:

But that isn't possible with the McCann's time line of events. Remember, they both stated she was alive and well when they left the apartment at around 8.30 pm. Further, Gerry then returned at 9.05 pm and not only stated she was okay, but thinking how lucky he was to have such a beautiful daughter.
-----------------------------------------

So only THEY SAY!

Nobody, independent, 'saw' Madeleine AFTER FP's 19h00 'visit' to the McCanns apartment or DP's 'visit' at 18h30 with KM wrapped in a towel.

Although DP has also stated that the 'LAST time HE saw Madeleine' was at 17h00.

He must have 20/20 vision because he was

AT THE 'BEACH', 500 hundred metres away, for that's WHERE he was from 16h00 til leaving the beach cafe at about 1810/15.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

To: Ricard Paiva
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

Leicester Police Constabulary

Ricardo,

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.

AND

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.

Someone's telling 'porkies' aren't they?


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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by sharonl on 27.11.14 18:43

Madeleine McCann police to trawl reservoir Telegraph

 

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id202.html 



Scroll down to the 6th article, or if you time, the first 5 articles are interesting.



By Aislinn Simpson in Odiaxere

Last Updated: 2:30AM BST   16/10/2007

A vast reservoir near to the town where Madeleine McCann went missing is set to be trawled as police relaunch an active search for her.

 

The new inquiry head has now tripled the size of his team in a bid to crack the case and ordered fresh searches of a 10 mile area around the holiday town of Praia da Luz from where she disappeared five months ago.

 

A search is also expected of the dense woodland and isolated dwellings around the reservoir - known locally as Barragem da Bravura, literally the Reservoir of the Wilderness - which leading detective Paulo Rebelo believes was not combed carefully enough in the days following the four-year-old's disappearance.

 

According to Portuguese newspaper the Correio Da Manha, the "meticulous" Rebelo has ordered his reinforced team to pay "special attention" to the area around the jagged reservoir, which has a 25 mile perimeter, and is 15 miles from Luz.

 

Sites to the south of the Ocean Club where the McCanns and their friends stayed, including Luz and Burgau beaches, are also to be "fine combed" by inspectors, who will particularly focus on spots where the British group used their mobile telephones.

 

These are the first significant searches for three months. Detectives have already revisited the family's rented apartment and the tapas bar where they dined on May 3, the night Madeleine disappeared, and this weekend began a review of the case files, looking for loose ends.

 

A friend of Kate and Gerry McCann said: "Any widening of the search area is encouraging and we would welcome that. It does sound as though there is more vigour in that aspect of the inquiry which is good."

 

He added that while it would be a "tragedy" for the family if police searches eventually yield the little girl's body, at least it would help lift the cloud of suspicion from them.

 

"If she is dead then she is dead but not by their hand," he said.

 

Another friend dismissed a report this weekend about suspicious footprints in the McCanns' apartment and the car they hired 25 days after Madeleine went missing as being like "something out of an Agatha Christie novel".

 

"It doesn't imply guilt in any shape or form," she said. "There are a lot of perfectly good reasons why a footprint of that nature might be found."

 

Newspapers cited a report on results due back from the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham this week that detailed a footprint in the apartment which had specks of unidentified blood in it, linking this to a potentially matching footprint above the bumper of the McCanns' car.

 

But an FSS source said: "The simple fact is, as was the case before, the results are not conclusive."

 

Meanwhile, it emerged that Kate and Gerry McCann, both 39-year-old doctors from Rothley in Leicestershire, could be the only official suspects in their daughter's disappearance within a month.

 

According to British expatriate Robert Murat's lawyer, Francisco Pagarete: "It's possible that in the next four weeks his status will be cleared because we will have reached six months since he has been a suspect in this case."

 

He said the District Attorney could still step in to increase the time limit detectives have to decide about their suspects, but added: "If they consider that the situation with regards to my client his already been resolved then his status will be lifted and he can get on with his life. It's just a question of waiting."

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Realist on 27.11.14 20:17

@jeanmonroe wrote:
-----------------------------------------

So only THEY SAY!

Nobody, independent, 'saw' Madeleine AFTER FP's 19h00 'visit' to the McCanns apartment or DP's 'visit' at 18h30 with KM wrapped in a towel.

Although DP has also stated that the 'LAST time HE saw Madeleine' was at 17h00.

He must have 20/20 vision because he was

AT THE 'BEACH', 500 hundred metres away, for that's WHERE he was from 16h00 til leaving the beach cafe at about 1810/15.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm


 


Precisely, which makes it highly likely that the McCann's daughter was already dead and buried before they left for the Tapas bar. This of course means that either one or both of the McCanns were present when she died. It is a ridiculous assertion to state that their daughter accidentally died when they weren't present, thereby necessitating the need to hide her body. Who in their right mind would feel the need to make a murder/kidnapping incident out of an accident.

The only logical reason for disposing of a body in those circumstances is to avoid an autopsy.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by plebgate on 27.11.14 21:17

@Realist wrote:
@plebgate wrote:

They are admissible in the Court of public opinion as per Jeremy Kyle show.   A lot of relationships have fallen because of  test results on that show.  Point is the public tend to listen to them (that is the reality, realist) and my belief is it would be easier to do a public lie detector test than haul people before a court to shut them up.

Add answering the 48 questions and I tend to believe that a lot of people might stop answering questions on public forums.

But  would you feel the need to convince the type of people who participate in and watch the Jeremy Kyle show of your innocence!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by j.rob on 27.11.14 22:55

@Casey5 wrote:I really can't imagine a three year old child waking and finding her parents gone, actually leaving the apartment to go in search of them.
I have kids and grandchildren and, when they were small, I can picture them standing on the the balcony, assuming they could open the patio doors in the first place and screaming the place down but NOT venturing out into the dark.
Little kids are scared of the dark as was Rachel Oldfield by all accounts.
In fact most little kids would just stay in the apartment and scream which would then have meant 3 children screaming because she would have woken the twins up.
How could Kate dream that one up I wonder?


I don't agree. Madeleine (allegedly) went to the kids' club every day. She was very nearly four years old. If one of the twins had woken up and been distressed it would be perfectly natural for a child of this age to try to find her parents or even seek another adult. 

The children knew the resort and, if they had any idea of where their parents were dining (which they would have done if their parents had been even remotely responsible, which of course we know they were not) it is entirely plausible for a nearly four year old to try to find her parents. 

------

How could Kate dream that one up I wonder?


-----


What one? You are not making sense. Kate suggested that there is no way that Madeleine could possibly have left the apartment of her own volition. I find that implausible - a nearly four year old can be incredibly perceptive. IF the parents had been dining as close to the apartment as they claimed then - assuming they were even vaguely responsible - they would have been very clear indeed to explain to Madeleine how close they were (almost in the back garden..so they said....) and that if anything at all happened, or if any of the children were distressed, she would know exactly where to find them.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Brian Griffin on 28.11.14 1:51

@Realist wrote:
But  would you feel the need to convince the type of people who participate in and watch the Jeremy Kyle show of your innocence!
Well, yes. They do represent the general public, which is why the show is on about 10 times a day, if you count the new shows and the +1 channels, the repeats on the secondary channels (3 in a row!) plus the repeats on their +1 channels and the late night JK USA shows... Yes, I think they are the people you need to convince because they are the same people who read the trashy newspapers. I'll bet a few of us watch it on here. I've watched a fair few episodes. You could play Bullshit Bingo with the overused phrases contained in every single program...
'It's called the Jeremy Kyle show'
'At the end of the day'
'Put something on the end of it'
Etc.

Yep. I would love to see Gezza and Kate on there, but then again, I doubt even Jeremy Kyle would risk everything just to ask the awkward questions to which we all want the answers so...

In my opinion.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Brian Griffin on 28.11.14 1:55

@plebgate wrote:
@Realist wrote:
@plebgate wrote:
  I would have wanted  to do a televised lie detector test and I most certainly would have answered any questions the police asked of me. 

I doubt very much that you would have wanted to participate in a televised lie detector test, you would have been so indignant that anyone should even think you would harm your child, that it was totally unnecessary and beneath contempt for you to prove your innocence to the media and their intellectually challenged entourage.

In other words, you wouldn't be attempting to cash in or make a media spectacle out of your grief.
I would rather do that to shut people up than keep turning to the courts to do it.
Yes, but every time they sue a newspaper, for example, and win it enhances their image as downtrodden victims and it also gags that particular outlet for information and makes it look as though any further attempt to attack the McCanns in the future as revenge, making them look even more like the victims. And last but not least, every time they sue and win they get a wad load of wonga to play with. So there are definite benefits to being in the public eye if you keep winning, and the cards are stacked in their favour as we know. Kerching!

In my opinion.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Brian Griffin on 28.11.14 2:02

@Joss wrote:
@Realist wrote:
@Joss wrote:
You are making an assumption in stating that. I do not believe there was a kidnapping/abduction,

I'm not actually making an assumption, Joss,  by stating that the McCann's daughter disappeared because of their leaving her alone to go on the piss, by default you are stating that had they not left her alone, her disappearance would not have occurred.

This can only mean that someone other than the McCanns took her in their absence.
Not necessarily. I am saying that in their absence Madeleine possibly had a fatal accident, and had they been there that would not have happened if there was adult supervision at all times. And if they were responsible parents and a horrible accident happened in their presence they would of called in a medical emergency straightaway. But because they were absent and due to their negligence they knew if Madeleine had died because of it they would more than likely be in prison and probably have lost their remaining children too.
This makes sense to me too, if we theorise that Madeleine was not abducted. If Madeleine had died as a result of something the parents did or did not do, I think they would have been charged with negligence, or worse; lost their two remaining children to social services or other family members; been struck off as doctors for the rest of their lives - and we're talking two big salaries here and all those years of studying and training down the swanee; been subjected to a virtual crucifixion in the media and hounded and threatened online by haters, and yes there really are some nasty netizens out there. I was shocked to hear that Sara Payne (mother of Sarah Payne) has had to quit social media due to the nastiness, and she was innocent! Imagine what they would do to this pair of middle class doctors! Their life would not have been worth living.

This must have gone through their minds, and from a purely pragmatic point of view, there was no bringing her back, but so much to lose by coming clean. Hence everything that happened next. Only they weren't as clever with their plans as they thought because what they want us all to believe is full of holes.

In my opinion.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Joss on 28.11.14 2:12

@Realist wrote:
@jeanmonroe wrote:
-----------------------------------------

So only THEY SAY!

Nobody, independent, 'saw' Madeleine AFTER FP's 19h00 'visit' to the McCanns apartment or DP's 'visit' at 18h30 with KM wrapped in a towel.

Although DP has also stated that the 'LAST time HE saw Madeleine' was at 17h00.

He must have 20/20 vision because he was

AT THE 'BEACH', 500 hundred metres away, for that's WHERE he was from 16h00 til leaving the beach cafe at about 1810/15.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm


 


Precisely, which makes it highly likely that the McCann's daughter was already dead and buried before they left for the Tapas bar. This of course means that either one or both of the McCanns were present when she died. It is a ridiculous assertion to state that their daughter accidentally died when they weren't present, thereby necessitating the need to hide her body. Who in their right mind would feel the need to make a murder/kidnapping incident out of an accident.

The only logical reason for disposing of a body in those circumstances is to avoid an autopsy.
Well Casey Anthony made the supposed accidental drowning in the backyard swimming pool look like a murder. Not unheard of actually when someone is trying to cover up a crime.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Joss on 28.11.14 2:19

@Brian Griffin wrote:
@Joss wrote:
@Realist wrote:
@Joss wrote:
You are making an assumption in stating that. I do not believe there was a kidnapping/abduction,

I'm not actually making an assumption, Joss,  by stating that the McCann's daughter disappeared because of their leaving her alone to go on the piss, by default you are stating that had they not left her alone, her disappearance would not have occurred.

This can only mean that someone other than the McCanns took her in their absence.
Not necessarily. I am saying that in their absence Madeleine possibly had a fatal accident, and had they been there that would not have happened if there was adult supervision at all times. And if they were responsible parents and a horrible accident happened in their presence they would of called in a medical emergency straightaway. But because they were absent and due to their negligence they knew if Madeleine had died because of it they would more than likely be in prison and probably have lost their remaining children too.
This makes sense to me too, if we theorise that Madeleine was not abducted. If Madeleine had died as a result of something the parents did or did not do, I think they would have been charged with negligence, or worse; lost their two remaining children to social services or other family members; been struck off as doctors for the rest of their lives - and we're talking two big salaries here and all those years of studying and training down the swanee; been subjected to a virtual crucifixion in the media and hounded and threatened online by haters, and yes there really are some nasty netizens out there. I was shocked to hear that Sara Payne (mother of Sarah Payne) has had to quit social media due to the nastiness, and she was innocent! Imagine what they would do to this pair of middle class doctors! Their life would not have been worth living.

This must have gone through their minds, and from a purely pragmatic point of view, there was no bringing her back, but so much to lose by coming clean. Hence everything that happened next. Only they weren't as clever with their plans as they thought because what they want us all to believe is full of holes.

In my opinion.
That is exactly what my thoughts were about their covering up what happened. They knew they stood to lose a lot more than their daughter IMO.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by plebgate on 28.11.14 9:17

@Brian Griffin wrote:
@Realist wrote:
But  would you feel the need to convince the type of people who participate in and watch the Jeremy Kyle show of your innocence!
Well, yes. They do represent the general public, which is why the show is on about 10 times a day, if you count the new shows and the +1 channels, the repeats on the secondary channels (3 in a row!) plus the repeats on their +1 channels and the late night JK USA shows... Yes, I think they are the people you need to convince because they are the same people who read the trashy newspapers. I'll bet a few of us watch it on here. I've watched a fair few episodes. You could play Bullshit Bingo with the overused phrases contained in every single program...
'It's called the Jeremy Kyle show'
'At the end of the day'
'Put something on the end of it'
Etc.

Yep. I would love to see Gezza and Kate on there, but then again, I doubt even Jeremy Kyle would risk everything just to ask the awkward questions to which we all want the answers so...

In my opinion.
I think realist already knows that BG hence my reply.   I was going to mention the media monitoring unit but decided my zzzzzzzzzzzzzz reply was better. titter

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Brian Griffin on 28.11.14 9:45

Oops. Sorry if I butted in on a private exchange. I didn't mean to answer for anyone else.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Realist on 28.11.14 14:46

@Joss wrote:
. Not unheard of actually when someone is trying to cover up a crime.

Covering up a crime, yes, but your theory appears to be that Madelaine McCann's death/disappearance was probably an accident. If it was in fact an accident, why would they feel the need to dispose of her body and concoct a phoney kidnapping story. If it happened in their presence, they could have quite morally adopted the stance that they were looking the other way at the time and if it happened in their absence, they could have equally claimed that it occurred in their presence, much less of a risk than the course they decided to adopt. After all, they couldn't possibly at the time have conceived how much symathy they would get from govs. and the media. The odds against that happening would have been longer than winning the lottery.

Even Kate McCann admits that covering up an accident would have been a nonsensical stance to adopt and she appears to have an air of confidence when expressing this opinion. In much the same way as she does when she rubbishes the theory that they buried their daughter's body so well that they felt the need to dig it up and reinter it.

No, if indeed the McCanns were in fact complicit in the death/disappearance of their daughter, it certainly wasn't an accident and as previously stated, the only logical reason for dispensing with a body in those circumstances was to avoid an autopsy. Forget the negligence aspect, that is what the McCanns and their entourage want the proletariat to believe, because without the aforementioned, there couldn't possibly have been a kidnapping, think about it.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Realist on 28.11.14 15:07

@Brian Griffin wrote:
Well, yes. They do represent the general public, which is why the show is on about 10 times a day, if you count the new shows and the +1 channels, the repeats on the secondary channels (3 in a row!) plus the repeats on their +1 channels and the late night JK USA shows...

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this cataclysmic tragedy. One really does have to congratulate previous successive govs. since the early 1970's  on doing a thoroughly good job of dumbing down and subjugating the British public. Less than 40 years ago, if one had stated that Eric Blair's prediction of an Orwellian, totalitarian state being a kindergarten compared to what was going to transpire in the 21st. century, one would have been met with, ''Yer avvin a laff, aincha, coultn't never 'appen  'ere mate, 'ave anover cup a tea.''

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Joss on 28.11.14 15:15

@Realist wrote:
@Joss wrote:
. Not unheard of actually when someone is trying to cover up a crime.

Covering up a crime, yes, but your theory appears to be that Madelaine McCann's death/disappearance was probably an accident. If it was in fact an accident, why would they feel the need to dispose of her body and concoct a phoney kidnapping story. If it happened in their presence, they could have quite morally adopted the stance that they were looking the other way at the time and if it happened in their absence, they could have equally claimed that it occurred in their presence, much less of a risk than the course they decided to adopt. After all, they couldn't possibly at the time have conceived how much symathy they would get from govs. and the media. The odds against that happening would have been longer than winning the lottery.

Even Kate McCann admits that covering up an accident would have been a nonsensical stance to adopt and she appears to have an air of confidence when expressing this opinion. In much the same way as she does when she rubbishes the theory that they buried their daughter's body so well that they felt the need to dig it up and reinter it.

No, if indeed the McCanns were in fact complicit in the death/disappearance of their daughter, it certainly wasn't an accident and as previously stated, the only logical reason for dispensing with a body in those circumstances was to avoid an autopsy. Forget the negligence aspect, that is what the McCanns and their entourage want the proletariat to believe, because without the aforementioned, there couldn't possibly have been a kidnapping, think about it.
BBM, If that was the case then the Coroner would have gone to the McC's apartment to take Madeleine for autopsy and forensic testing to finalise a cause of death report for a death certificate. If the McC's had been drugging their children so they could go out at night without them then that would of shown up on toxicology testing. If they were found by that to be drugging their kids then it would have been possible to charge them with contributing to their own child's death. And if they would have lied to the police about Maddie's death in their presence while they were in fact absent, then there would be witnesses that could give evidence that they were seen out to dinner without their children, thus evidence the children were home alone & neglected once police investigated into a potential babysitter or who was minding their children.
The McCann's aren't really known to be truthful either. And i don't think any of us know for sure if there was an accident that night or not, but blood and cadaver evidence certainly points to a death in the McCann apartment and in the boot of the hire car. Perhaps Maddie was murdered and it wasn't an accident, who knows.
I think Inspector Amaral who was first investigator on the case believed Maddie died accidentally, and he is a trained investigator, so maybe he just had a clue from his previous dealings with these things.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Realist on 28.11.14 15:54

@Joss wrote:
BBM, If that was the case then the Coroner would have gone to the McC's apartment to take Madeleine for autopsy and forensic testing to finalise a cause of death report for a death certificate. If the McC's had been drugging their children so they could go out at night without them then that would of shown up on toxicology testing. If they were found by that to be drugging their kids then it would have been possible to charge them with contributing to their own child's death. And if they would have lied to the police about Maddie's death in their presence while they were in fact absent, then there would be witnesses that could give evidence that they were seen out to dinner without their children, thus evidence the children were home alone & neglected once police investigated into a potential babysitter or who was minding their children.
The McCann's aren't really known to be truthful either. And i don't think any of us know for sure if there was an accident that night or not, but blood and cadaver evidence certainly points to a death in the McCann apartment and in the boot of the hire car. Perhaps Maddie was murdered and it wasn't an accident, who knows.
I think Inspector Amaral who was first investigator on the case believed Maddie died accidentally, and he is a trained investigator, so maybe he just had a clue from his previous dealings with these things.

I very much doubt whether the portuguese authorities would have paid much heed to an accidental death, after all, they appeared to be glad to see the back of the McCanns. Portugal isn't a draconian police state like the UK, besides which, child negligence doesn't appear to encounter such tabloid hysteria in Portugal as in the UK and certainly the US.

For what its worth, I too don't believe that the McCanns intentionally murdered their daughter, but I equally don't believe it was an UNAVOIDABLE accident. I think that when Goncala Amoral referred to Madelaine accidentally dying in his book, he had libel in mind which transpired to be prophetic.

As for drug testing, why, they didn't even bother to test the remaining two, despite by all accounts being so spaced out, they didn't stir with the chaos erupting around them. If it had have been an unavoidable accident, it would have merely passed off as a tragedy with sympathy all round. For the McCanns to have adopted the gambit they did, there had to have been something far more sinister involved than an accidental death, with or without their presence.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Joss on 28.11.14 16:15

@Realist wrote:
@Joss wrote:
BBM, If that was the case then the Coroner would have gone to the McC's apartment to take Madeleine for autopsy and forensic testing to finalise a cause of death report for a death certificate. If the McC's had been drugging their children so they could go out at night without them then that would of shown up on toxicology testing. If they were found by that to be drugging their kids then it would have been possible to charge them with contributing to their own child's death. And if they would have lied to the police about Maddie's death in their presence while they were in fact absent, then there would be witnesses that could give evidence that they were seen out to dinner without their children, thus evidence the children were home alone & neglected once police investigated into a potential babysitter or who was minding their children.
The McCann's aren't really known to be truthful either. And i don't think any of us know for sure if there was an accident that night or not, but blood and cadaver evidence certainly points to a death in the McCann apartment and in the boot of the hire car. Perhaps Maddie was murdered and it wasn't an accident, who knows.
I think Inspector Amaral who was first investigator on the case believed Maddie died accidentally, and he is a trained investigator, so maybe he just had a clue from his previous dealings with these things.

I very much doubt whether the portuguese authorities would have paid much heed to an accidental death, after all, they appeared to be glad to see the back of the McCanns. Portugal isn't a draconian police state like the UK, besides which, child negligence doesn't appear to be such a taboo subject in Portugal as it is in the UK and certainly the US.

For what its worth, I too don't believe that the McCanns intentionally murdered their daughter, but I equally don't believe it was an UNAVOIDABLE accident. I think that when Goncala Amoral referred to Madelaine accidentally dying in his book, he had libel in mind which transpired to be prophetic.

As for drug testing, why, they didn't even bother to test the remaining two, despite by all accounts being so spaced out, they didn't stir with the chaos erupting around them. If it had have been an unavoidable accident, it would have merely passed off as a tragedy with sympathy all round. For the McCanns to have adopted the gambit they did, there had to have been something far more sinister involved than an accidental death, with or without their presence.
I think it is rather flippant to say how portugese authorities would treat the accidental death of a child. This is posted here underneath the header,
Kate McCann's lawyer Carlos Pinto de Abreu: ''If you were Portuguese this would be enough to put you in prison.''
So there you have it, i don't think the portugese would take a child's accidental death or not lightly, and it is insulting to say they would IMO.
As far as testing the twins i don't know if the police were in the apartment at that time, i think they were out searching for Madeleine. But the tapas friends were there and witnessed K.Mc's concern over them, yet none of them mentioned that perhaps they should be checked out for drugging just after a little girl was found to be missing????

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Realist on 29.11.14 13:57

@Joss wrote:

I think it is rather flippant to say how portugese authorities would treat the accidental death of a child. This is posted here underneath the header,
Kate McCann's lawyer Carlos Pinto de Abreu: ''If you were Portuguese this would be enough to put you in prison.''

The McCanns were foreign nationals and it wouldn't be unnatural for the Portuguese authorities to have paid less attention to an accidental death than had they been natives. In any event, why would they pay any particular attention to an accidental death? It wouldn't have even got a mention in the local press, never mind attained worldwide notoriety

It was the McCanns and their friends who turned the investigation into a murder/kidnapping investigation, not the Portuguese authorities. To quote one of your favourite causes, it was the prosecutor in the Casey Anthony trial who during his summation to the jury stated, 'You don't make an accident appear to be a murder.' (or words to that effect)

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Joss on 30.11.14 7:08

@Realist wrote:
@Joss wrote:

I think it is rather flippant to say how portugese authorities would treat the accidental death of a child. This is posted here underneath the header,
Kate McCann's lawyer Carlos Pinto de Abreu: ''If you were Portuguese this would be enough to put you in prison.''

The McCanns were foreign nationals and it wouldn't be unnatural for the Portuguese authorities to have paid less attention to an accidental death than had they been natives. In any event, why would they pay any particular attention to an accidental death? It wouldn't have even got a mention in the local press, never mind attained worldwide notoriety

It was the McCanns and their friends who turned the investigation into a murder/kidnapping investigation, not the Portuguese authorities. To quote one of your favourite causes, it was the prosecutor in the Casey Anthony trial who during his summation to the jury stated, 'You don't make an accident appear to be a murder.' (or words to that effect)
I don't know if the McC's being foreign nationals had much to do with anything as any foreign national that comes under investigation in a crime in a foreign country comes under the laws of that country. I think it had more to do with the U.K. Govt. higher ups running interference in the case very promptly after Madeleine was discovered missing and possibly the flurry of phone calls by the McC's.
And i am also not definitely purporting a theory of an accident, because for all i know it could have been a murder?
I mention the CA case because i think there are parallels to both cases is all. I followed a few missing child cases in the U.S. and i can't remember any other cases like these two where evidence of a dead child's body was found in the trunk of a vehicle.

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Latest from the express

Post by GRACEFUL1 on 30.11.14 8:45

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/541742/Maddie-detectives-set-to-quiz-key-witnesses-again

EXCLUSIVE: New quiz for Maddie witnesses

MADELEINE McCANN detectives are planning to requestion key figures who arrived on the scene shortly after the three-year-old disappeared.

Published: 00:01, Sun, November 30, 2014
By James Murray


EXCLUSIVE: New quiz for Maddie witnesses

MADELEINE McCANN detectives are planning to requestion key figures who arrived on the scene shortly after the three-year-old disappeared.


Published: 00:01, Sun, November 30, 2014
By James Murray
8

PA
Detectives have key questions for witnesses to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann
The Scotland Yard officers have analysed minutely events which happened just before, during and immediately after Madeleine vanished on May 3, 2007 and appear to be seeking new information and clarification from important witnesses.

Among those scheduled for requestioning is Silvia Batista, who ran the service and maintenance departments of the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz on the Algarve where the McCanns were staying.

Shortly after the alarm was raised, Mrs Batista was contacted at her home in nearby Lagos and immediately went back to work.

When she arrived at a reception area she saw Madeleine's father Gerry on his knees on the floor crying out for help and banging his hands on the floor.

A few minutues later she entered the bedroom at apartment 5a and said that the shutters were down, the windows closed and the curtains slightly open.

Kate McCann has said that when she arrived to find Madeleine gone, the shutters were partly open in the bedroom, leading her to believe that Madeleine had been taken through the window.

In her statement Mrs Batista said Gerry told her he had closed the windows as their other two children, Sean and Amelie, then 18 months, were still asleep in separate cots in the bedroom.

Mrs Batista, a former receptionist at the Ocean Club, worked closely with her husband Joao, who was head of maintenance and services.

In the past year both were made redundant because of falling bookings at the Ocean Club, which have been blamed on the recession and publicity surrounding Madeleine's disappearance.

Another facing requestioning is John Hill, manager of the Ocean Club.

When he arrived at the club after receiving a call at 10.28pm from a colleague, some 100 people were already searching for Madeleine.

He also spoke with Kate and Gerry that night in their apartment and helped arrange for photos of the child to be distributed.

Mr Hill and his wife Donna printed pictures after being given a memory stick by Russell O'Brien, a friend of the McCanns whose partner Jane Tanner's picture of Madeleine gathering tennis balls is well known.

saw the weird guy and we nearly bumped into each other. He was embarrassed. He was nervous.
Mario Fernando's witness remarks

Donna Hill is likely to be requestioned early in the New Year.

Scotland Yard detectives are also interested in claims that a set of keys to apartment 5a, kept in the maintenance section, went missing in the week that Madeleine vanished, first revealed by the Sunday Express last February when we reported that a former maintenance worker said the disappearance of the keys had not been reported to the authorities.

Detectives also want their Portuguese counterparts to interview Mario Fernando, 47, who came forward last May to say he saw a suspicious man wearing sun glasses in a stairwell looking at apartment 5a 24 hours before Madeleine disappeared. The former Ocean Club laundryman was collecting sheets when he saw the man: "I saw the weird guy and we nearly bumped into each other.

"He was embarrassed. He was nervous. He was walking out from the hole under the stairs and must have been much further inside but had taken several steps back after hearing me coming.

"He had a really fat face and had two-tone sunglasses on."

Last week it was revealed that Robert Murat was one of those on the Yard's list of people it wants more information from.

Mr Murat told the Sunday Express he would be happy to cooperate but has not received anything official yet from the authorities.

Portuguese police have to conduct the interviews but Scotland Yard officers can sit in during questioning. Some interviews were due to be held last week but they now look likely to be held in the New Year.

Former Scotland Yard murder detective Peter Bleksley said that this next stage of the investigation was a "logical progression" for the police.

"I would think that they have been concentrating on the timeline in the review period and they have may have come across some inconsistencies which they want to look into," he said. "That would be my thinking on this.

"They will want to know who was where, who saw what and at what time and try to work through the inconsistencies while at the same time seeking new information.

"Going back to square one will have formed a big part of the original review which has now moved into the investigative stage. It is a logical progression."

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Mr Peabody on 30.11.14 9:24

Are we now getting to the point where there is nobody left but the T9? By interviewing SB & JH this surely brings us closer however the missing keys could be the avenue they wish to pursue (it could then take us back to the burglars who don't steal anything other than dead children).imo.

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by PeterMac on 30.11.14 9:30

So we now have ANOTHER printer, another memory stick, another person taking the tennis balls picture
We now have HILL arranging for the printing of the photos, not ROB and Tierney using her own printer
we have the tennis balls photo available on 3-4/5/7, but not released until 6/5/7 by the Press Association
We have shutters DOWN, windows closed, curtains half closed



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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Mr Peabody on 30.11.14 9:39

@PeterMac wrote:So we now have ANOTHER printer, another memory stick, another person taking the tennis balls picture
We now have HILL arranging for the printing of the photos, not ROB and Tierney using her own printer
we have the tennis balls photo available on 3-4/5/7, but not released until 6/5/7 by the Press Association
We have shutters DOWN, windows closed, curtains half closed


The article doesn't say that the tennis ball photo was available it just states it was JT that took it. Can't read too much into this report, perhaps who they are going to interview is the only possible accurate part. imo

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Re: Madeleine McCann dumped in lake (Daily Mirror) and EXPRESS 30 Nov - 3 witesses to be questioned who arrived on the scene soon after Maddie was abducted

Post by Tony Bennett on 30.11.14 9:44

@GRACEFUL1 wrote:http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/541742/Maddie-detectives-set-to-quiz-key-witnesses-again

Mr Hill and his wife Donna printed pictures after being given a memory stick by Russell O'Brien, a friend of the McCanns whose partner Jane Tanner's picture of Madeleine gathering tennis balls is well known.

[REST OF ARTICLE SNIPPED] 
Oh dear!!

page 57, 'madeleine', by Dr Kate McCann - An account of what happened:

TUESDAY 1 MAY

"During Gerry's tennis lesson, Madeleine and Ella came to the adjoining court with their Mini Club for a mini-tennis session...she looked so gorgeous in her little T-shirt and shorts, pink hat, ankle socks and new holiday sandals that I ran back to our apartment for my camera to record the occasion...

____________________

                            "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?" - Amelie, May 2007 -  "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?"


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