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Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

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Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by haroldd2 on 11.10.14 11:28

OK, I know Deborah Orr's article is on 'Comment is Free' and not the leader page. But still, how about some sharp editorial advice and a word from the legal department?

DO writes:

"Leyland’s high-profile exposure has, inevitably, been directly linked to her suicide."

Well hang on a minute. There's an inquest. The first post-mortem was inconclusive. That's one reason the coroner adjourned the case. We don't know whether it was murder, suicide or something else.

"One is not supposed to think of “Twitter trolls” as fragile. But this one was, apparently. Her anonymous tweets talked tough. They proclaimed her hatred of the McCanns. She took particular umbrage to what she saw as the couple’s publicity-seeking behaviour. There’s sad irony in the fact that, when publicity found Leyland, it seems to have quickly destroyed her."

"Sad irony", indeed. This is just a Guardian way of saying "she got hers" and "don't mess with the press". Vile. From some lazy amoral journalist who's probably never taken a stand on anything for other than career reasons, or followed through on a moral position, in her life. Easy to put the boot into someone when they're dead. Courageous too.

I don't think many people would have a problem with the McCanns seeking publicity if they believed that they really were holding onto the hope that their daughter is alive and trying to do their utmost to get her back. Then at least the press might achieve something positive rather than negative for once. Talk about seeing the world through the bottom of a glass at El Vino's.

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Re: Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by Guest on 11.10.14 11:39

Agree, Harold2, I'm quite angry about this article.  More importantly, BL has not yet had a funeral, has family and friends who are grieving and DO is writing this rubbish.  Shame on the Guardian.

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Re: Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by Okeydokey on 11.10.14 12:26

Poorly thought out article even on its own terms e.g.

"There’s sad irony in the fact that, when publicity found Leyland, it seems to have quickly destroyed her"

There is no irony in that, since Leyland's point was that the McCanns seemed to revel in publicity in a way that seemed unnatural or self-seeking for parents in their situation, whereas for most people such publicity would be a trial in such circumstances. So poor Brenda's demise, if it was suicide, was completely in keeping with her criticisms of the McCanns i.e. she was a normal person who found such publicity quite unbearable.

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Re: Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by Garrincha on 11.10.14 12:39

I agree with all the above, but the majority of reader comments on this article are extremely critical, both of the article itself & of TM

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Re: Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by Montclair on 11.10.14 14:16

I managed to get my comment in there now, don't know how long it will last.

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Re: Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by tiny on 11.10.14 14:25

See, they are all sticking together like shit to a blanket,Brenda did no wrong,she hadn't even been spoken to by the police, so I understand.

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Re: Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by .Guest.. on 11.10.14 14:47

@Montclair wrote:I managed to get my comment in there now, don't know how long it will last.
I have read through 40 or so comments and whilst negative comments are being allowed they are solely based on the neglect aspect. I don`t have time to go through any more but I get the feeling the moderators are allowing the age old discussion of neglect v haven`t they suffered enough v if they came from a council estate v big bad bogey man theory but whooshing any that question the evidence for any other eventuality.

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Re: Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by Guest on 11.10.14 15:00

I've posted saying I don't believe the abduction claim.  PeterMac, read yours - you managed quite a lot of info.

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Re: Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by PeterMac on 11.10.14 15:40

Amazingly they have printed it.  I thought it had been whooshed.
And the tenor of what they are letting through is most revealing.  perhaps the sub-edtor is still at lunch, and a junior is doing it.
Page 1 of the comments were the predictable "poor them" Guardian reader's stuff, but this page 2 . . . !
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/10/what-made-kate-gerry-mccann-object-of-so-much-anger?commentpage=2

So before they are all taken down,  Names removed in case Brunt is watching and taking notes !

It's simple, they left their children alone for no good reason, any parent is going to hold that against them and It doesn't help that they never acknowledged their mistake.
Unfortunately they don't come across as very likeable people.
They paid the ultimate price for their actions and for that I pity them.

Maybe people would be more sympathetic to the McCanns if they accepted their partial responsibility for their little girl's plight. People who leave 3 very young children alone with only half hour checks are not deserving of sympathy.

What really irked people about the McCanns, from the beginning, was essentially their massive reserves of emotional resilience.

No, Ms Orr.
What irked people about the McCanns was that they went out for dinner every night without making childcare arrangements for their three toddlers.
That they, entirely for their own convenience, also left a door unlocked which led directly onto a public road.
That when questioned they seemed, and seem to this day, incapable of accepting they were in any way at fault.
That they stated they ''felt so safe''. I do not recall Portugal having softer floors, or lower beds, or fiendishly childproof taps, or special intelligent knives that children cannot cut themselves with, or flameproof apartments, or zero gravity. The risk of abduction would not be the thought uppermost in my mind when leaving three toddlers alone. It would be trips and falls and scaldings and drownings and taking mummy's tablets and turning the stove on and nightmares and sleepwalking.
That they blamed everyone else - why weren't people asking ''how high?'' when they said jump, where were the helicopters with infra-red cameras, the men to close the borders, the people to search through the night after they took to their beds?
That they wouldn't fully co-operate with the investigation
That they used the money donated by the public to help find their child to sue people for libel
That they repeat the same mantra endlessly - ''There is no evidence Madeleine has been seriously harmed'' - and expect people to believe it.
No-one gives a stuff about their ''emotional resilience'', Ms Orr.
It's their flakiness that's the problem.

I am sorry for those i may offended but this has to be said.
There are just to many unanswered questions that Kate McCann has never answered to satisfy the Portuguese Police. There has always been a very gauged response from Kate McCann to questions put to her. This is not the behaviour of a mother who's child has (Supposedly disappeared).
Think about it if your child were in fact taken, would you fail to answer questions put to you by the Police ? (No you would answer anything and everything).
I am more concerned with the other two children, the fact that these parents went off leaving three small children alone to go and enjoy themselves is beyond any kind of rational thinking. (And they are doctors) > When is the next time they just want to simple forget they have children. It is and it wasn't a rational way of behaving at the time for an educated person. Do I think Kate McCann is hiding a deep dark secret ? . (Yes) with out any doubt at all.

I can't place my finger on it, there's something about them. The fact sometimes you hate people for what seems no goos reason. The circumstances of poor Maddie's disappearance just made things worse. Not that I'm justifying any of it.

My own daughter is about the same age as Madeleine, she lives on the Algarve, knows the area she lives in like the back of her hand and speaks fluent Portuguese. I STILL wouldn't even consider the idea of leaving her alone whilst I went out, even for a loaf of bread in the middle of the day. THIS was the reason that 'ordinary' people vilified the McCanns. No other. Not because of their strength, stoicism, exercise routine or ANYTHING else. They left Maddie without adult supervision in a strange place. Full stop.

Whatever one thinks of the McCanns and Brenda Leyland, Sky's harassment of the latter was a disgrace. It was as though Leveson never happened. Thanks to Cameron's inaction and support of the Tory media, it might as well never have done.

because they are the epitome of passive aggressive types ... Playing the victim but aggressively suing anyone who asks a sensible question about the most unlikely scenario ever! Perhaps if they came at it from a place of humility, people might not feel such revulsion fro them

A quick correction-
the article refers to the "McCann's twin sons". One of the twins is a girl.

An example of good journalism.

Many people here in Portugal dislike the McCanns because of their contempt for those who so readily helped to search for their daughter the night she disappeared and the following days. The GNR (police), Ocean Club employees, locals, ex-pats and even policemen who cut short their vacation to participate in the search, were out in the scrubland, by the beach, looking in rubbish bins, wells, everwhere possible to find Madeleine. Everyone was out, except the parents and their friends.
And the McCanns had the gall to publicly complain to friends and family that they had been left on their own with no help and that no one was looking for their daughter. Many took this attitude as a slap in the face. That's one of the many reasons they are not well liked.

Peter Mac
Do we really believe that 9 parents left 8 children, all under the age of 4, and some under 2, six nights in a row in cold, dark, apartments, when some were vomiting, some lying in pools of their own diarrhoea, and the eldest had specifically complained about their abandonment ? We have been given two stories about the curtains, - wide open, and tight closed and whooshing - different versions of shutters, we are told of gale force gusts slamming doors and blowing into the room which is not borne out by weather reports. We are told that the Last Photo by the pool in bright sunshine was on 3/5/7, again weather reports prove it was cold and overcast and windy that day. And so on. Do we really believe the abandonment version ?
Reply to above
No, we don't.
Why didn't Madeleine have her own toothbrush? Why did her father have to return to the UK to collect a pillowcase for DNA? Why are there discrepancies in police statements? Shall I mention the police dog alerts?

I can't begin to imagine the distress suffered by the McCanns and wonder about the mindset of anyone who feels it incumbent upon themself to criticise in this way. But then look at any site allowing comments and you invariably get a few reactions of this kind. Perhaps websites should provide counselling for these individuals as there is very obviously some profound character defect behind their actions.
As others have said, it is easy to be critical and perhaps the McCanns were the instruments of their own distress but all it takes is a moment's inattention in a busy place and a child could be snatched, never to be seen again.

The McCanns are disliked for many reasons, emotional resilience is not one. The mother of Jamie Bulger and Ben Needham have both shown the same resilience and people are not hostile to them.

Poorly thought out, poorly written, clickbait.

Ms Orr, poor quality. It appears you have not undertaken any independent reading of the death of Brenda Leyland, nor of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. I do not believe she was abducted. There is no forensic evidence to suggest that she was - only her parents make this claim. I suggest you read the Portuguese police files which are available in English on-line and acquaint yourself with facts.

Well said! The nonsense pseudo psychology being spouted here is laughable. I've yet to meet a qualified psychologist, or indeed anyone with experience in that field, who DON'T think the McCanns are lying and in some way responsible for their daughter's disappearance.

My initial comment seemed too controversial to be left up for more than a few minutes, so I'll ask again in a slightly different way, but I still don't see what is so bad about it for it to be deleted within minutes. You ask "What made Kate and Gerry McCann the object of so much anger?". Do your job as a journalist, and you might be able to answer the question yourself.

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Re: Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by BlueBag on 11.10.14 16:37

I like this one.


My own daughter is about the same age as Madeleine, she lives on the Algarve, knows the area she lives in like the back of her hand and speaks fluent Portuguese. I STILL wouldn't even consider the idea of leaving her alone whilst I went out, even for a loaf of bread in the middle of the day.

Imagine if the shop was 15 mins away.

You would be away for 30 mins.

Who would leave kids of that age alone for 30 minutes even if they were asleep.

With the door unlocked.

And at least one of them was a poor sleeper as well.

The McCann's couldn't hear the kids, couldn't see the kids.. they might as well have been down the shop.

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Re: Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by Naz_Nomad on 12.10.14 1:53

One of my comments is on the list.  I originally put a link to Sonia Poulton's video as well, but in the time it took me to read to the bottom of the page it was gone.  I did it again, without the link but it has also been deleted. censored

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Re: Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by Okeydokey on 12.10.14 2:24

Good stuff! But -

"That they stated they ''felt so safe''. "

So why ever have any doubts about leaving the kids alone.

People sometimes neglect that - according to pro McCann reports - KMcC told Fiona or Rachel (forget which) - on the night of the alleged "abduction" - that she had concerns about leaving Madeleine and the twins alone after the "crying" incident. This is typical Team McCann stuff - they only introduced this ages after, in response to media reports about the crying incident - obviously to boost the McCanns' profile as sensitive human beings...but of course none of this was mentioned in any of the police interviews.


@PeterMac wrote:Amazingly they have printed it.  I thought it had been whooshed.
And the tenor of what they are letting through is most revealing.  perhaps the sub-edtor is still at lunch, and a junior is doing it.
Page 1 of the comments were the predictable "poor them" Guardian reader's stuff, but this page 2  . . . !
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/10/what-made-kate-gerry-mccann-object-of-so-much-anger?commentpage=2

So before they are all taken down,  Names removed in case Brunt is watching and taking notes !

It's simple, they left their children alone for no good reason, any parent is going to hold that against them and It doesn't help that they never acknowledged their mistake.
Unfortunately they don't come across as very likeable people.
They paid the ultimate price for their actions and for that I pity them.

Maybe people would be more sympathetic to the McCanns if they accepted their partial responsibility for their little girl's plight. People who leave 3 very young children alone with only half hour checks are not deserving of sympathy.

What really irked people about the McCanns, from the beginning, was essentially their massive reserves of emotional resilience.

No, Ms Orr.
What irked people about the McCanns was that they went out for dinner every night without making childcare arrangements for their three toddlers.
That they, entirely for their own convenience, also left a door unlocked which led directly onto a public road.
That when questioned they seemed, and seem to this day, incapable of accepting they were in any way at fault.
That they stated they ''felt so safe''. I do not recall Portugal having softer floors, or lower beds, or fiendishly childproof taps, or special intelligent knives that children cannot cut themselves with, or flameproof apartments, or zero gravity. The risk of abduction would not be the thought uppermost in my mind when leaving three toddlers alone. It would be trips and falls and scaldings and drownings and taking mummy's tablets and turning the stove on and nightmares and sleepwalking.
That they blamed everyone else - why weren't people asking ''how high?'' when they said jump, where were the helicopters with infra-red cameras, the men to close the borders, the people to search through the night after they took to their beds?
That they wouldn't fully co-operate with the investigation
That they used the money donated by the public to help find their child to sue people for libel
That they repeat the same mantra endlessly - ''There is no evidence Madeleine has been seriously harmed'' - and expect people to believe it.
No-one gives a stuff about their ''emotional resilience'', Ms Orr.
It's their flakiness that's the problem.

I am sorry for those i may offended but this has to be said.
There are just to many unanswered questions that Kate McCann has never answered to satisfy the Portuguese Police. There has always been a very gauged response from Kate McCann to questions put to her. This is not the behaviour of a mother who's child has (Supposedly disappeared).
Think about it if your child were in fact taken, would you fail to answer questions put to you by the Police ? (No you would answer anything and everything).
I am more concerned with the other two children, the fact that these parents went off leaving three small children alone to go and enjoy themselves is beyond any kind of rational thinking. (And they are doctors) > When is the next time they just want to simple forget they have children. It is and it wasn't a rational way of behaving at the time for an educated person. Do I think Kate McCann is hiding a deep dark secret ? . (Yes) with out any doubt at all.

I can't place my finger on it, there's something about them. The fact sometimes you hate people for what seems no goos reason. The circumstances of poor Maddie's disappearance just made things worse. Not that I'm justifying any of it.

My own daughter is about the same age as Madeleine, she lives on the Algarve, knows the area she lives in like the back of her hand and speaks fluent Portuguese. I STILL wouldn't even consider the idea of leaving her alone whilst I went out, even for a loaf of bread in the middle of the day. THIS was the reason that 'ordinary' people vilified the McCanns. No other. Not because of their strength, stoicism, exercise routine or ANYTHING else. They left Maddie without adult supervision in a strange place. Full stop.

Whatever one thinks of the McCanns and Brenda Leyland, Sky's harassment of the latter was a disgrace. It was as though Leveson never happened. Thanks to Cameron's inaction and support of the Tory media, it might as well never have done.

because they are the epitome of passive aggressive types ... Playing the victim but aggressively suing anyone who asks a sensible question about the most unlikely scenario ever! Perhaps if they came at it from a place of humility, people might not feel such revulsion fro them

A quick correction-
the article refers to the "McCann's twin sons". One of the twins is a girl.

An example of good journalism.

Many people here in Portugal dislike the McCanns because of their contempt for those who so readily helped to search for their daughter the night she disappeared and the following days. The GNR (police), Ocean Club employees, locals, ex-pats and even policemen who cut short their vacation to participate in the search, were out in the scrubland, by the beach, looking in rubbish bins, wells, everwhere possible to find Madeleine. Everyone was out, except the parents and their friends.
And the McCanns had the gall to publicly complain to friends and family that they had been left on their own with no help and that no one was looking for their daughter. Many took this attitude as a slap in the face. That's one of the many reasons they are not well liked.

Peter Mac
Do we really believe that 9 parents left 8 children, all under the age of 4, and some under 2, six nights in a row in cold, dark, apartments, when some were vomiting, some lying in pools of their own diarrhoea, and the eldest had specifically complained about their abandonment ? We have been given two stories about the curtains, - wide open, and tight closed and whooshing - different versions of shutters, we are told of gale force gusts slamming doors and blowing into the room which is not borne out by weather reports. We are told that the Last Photo by the pool in bright sunshine was on 3/5/7, again weather reports prove it was cold and overcast and windy that day. And so on. Do we really believe the abandonment version ?
Reply to above
No, we don't.
Why didn't Madeleine have her own toothbrush? Why did her father have to return to the UK to collect a pillowcase for DNA? Why are there discrepancies in police statements? Shall I mention the police dog alerts?

I can't begin to imagine the distress suffered by the McCanns and wonder about the mindset of anyone who feels it incumbent upon themself to criticise in this way. But then look at any site allowing comments and you invariably get a few reactions of this kind. Perhaps websites should provide counselling for these individuals as there is very obviously some profound character defect behind their actions.
As others have said, it is easy to be critical and perhaps the McCanns were the instruments of their own distress but all it takes is a moment's inattention in a busy place and a child could be snatched, never to be seen again.

The McCanns are disliked for many reasons, emotional resilience is not one. The mother of Jamie Bulger and Ben Needham have both shown the same resilience and people are not hostile to them.

Poorly thought out, poorly written, clickbait.

Ms Orr, poor quality. It appears you have not undertaken any independent reading of the death of Brenda Leyland, nor of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. I do not believe she was abducted. There is no forensic evidence to suggest that she was - only her parents make this claim. I suggest you read the Portuguese police files which are available in English on-line and acquaint yourself with facts.

Well said! The nonsense pseudo psychology being spouted here is laughable. I've yet to meet a qualified psychologist, or indeed anyone with experience in that field, who DON'T think the McCanns are lying and in some way responsible for their daughter's disappearance.

My initial comment seemed too controversial to be left up for more than a few minutes, so I'll ask again in a slightly different way, but I still don't see what is so bad about it for it to be deleted within minutes. You ask "What made Kate and Gerry McCann the object of so much anger?". Do your job as a journalist, and you might be able to answer the question yourself.

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Re: Guardian article assumes Leyland suicide, on zero evidence

Post by BlueBag on 12.10.14 8:11

@Okeydokey wrote:People sometimes neglect that - according to pro McCann reports - KMcC told Fiona or Rachel (forget which) - on the night of the alleged "abduction" - that she had concerns about leaving Madeleine and the twins alone after the "crying" incident.  This is typical Team McCann stuff - they only introduced this ages after, in response to media reports about the crying incident - obviously to boost the McCanns' profile as sensitive human beings...but of course none of this was mentioned in any of the police interviews. 

Yes it's BS.

Why would Kate think Gerry was "waylaid" or "watching the football" rather than there being a problem with the kids?

They don't have a story that makes any sense.

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