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Crèche signatures revisited

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Snifferdog on 26.10.14 5:40

@HelenMeg wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:The third man? Surely you don't mean....?



Actually this would explain why the "abduction" had to be on the evening of the 3rd. No sub for the creche for Friday.
Yes that what I just thought too - sorry hadnt read your post but find this interesting. Another cooincidence?
Good posts!

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Guest on 26.10.14 7:48

@unchained melody wrote:


Just starting to notice Clay's disruptive techniques. Films, TV clips. Stop it Clay please

big grin

Just humour me. Which one of us is the pot, and which the kettle? I can never remember....

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Guest on 26.10.14 7:52

Dee Coy wrote:Very interesting,  j.rob. From a friend of Kikoratton no less.

What was the name of Robert Naylor's wife, anyone? Anne rings a bell but not finding anything under Google. Just wondering who the RN and AN are who Kikoratton refers to in his recent tweet?

It's interesting that Kikoratton's tweeting doesn't seem to incur the wrath of Jim Gamble. I wonder if he was in "the dossier".

This theory does cover a lot of bases. The voice saying "Madeleine", "They've taken her" etc. Hell, maybe Redwood's "creche dad" is Robert Naylor.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Guest on 26.10.14 9:08

Carrying her through the streets of Luz to the taxi home, you mean? omg

I always thought Redwood's Crecheman had to be based on a loose truth, in case he's ever needed in court.

This is the description given by Jose Cardoso:


António Castelo says the girl was wearing pink pyjamas and is certain she was in fact Madeleine.

A taxi driver for the past 17 years, he says he noted her eye, “As my son, who is a police officer, has a similar defect”. “Madeleine was with three men, one of whom looked like Robert Murat, and a blonde woman,” he said.

“The blonde woman with them looked to me like Madeleine’s mother but I couldn’t say whether or not it was her,” he said.


These are the clothes and blanket Crecheman's child was dressed in, thanks to the Daily Mail:


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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by joyce1938 on 26.10.14 9:22

I have seen that picture before ,looks nothing like the pyjamas that were from Marks spencers which were held up by theparents. Were they called  eay aw cant recall the name has been mentioned a few times. That's why I felt it odd when the father who has been said to have been taking his daughter home from night crech I think ,so somewhere along the line ,it just doesn't add up .joyce1938

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Marian on 26.10.14 9:58


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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by NickE on 26.10.14 10:09

"He told the paper the jeep the group got into in the hotel car park had a yellow UK-style number plate. He is thought to have informed police after being told they were not staying at the hotel and seeing news of Madeleine's disappearance on TV. Mr Castela is said to have picked up the group just after 8pm local time.

From CM:
The man, 67 years old, told CM that the clients "appeared at 20h10", at the taxi stand near the Casino, "and asked to go to the Hotel Apolo", a few kilometres away. When we arrived, they paid and left, but "instead of entering the hotel, they went to a jeep, with a yellow number plate," continues António Cardoso, who then left the location without re-thinking about it.


Did Murat have access to a jeep?
Could he have been mistaken and thought that Sarah F** was Kate McCann?


"Kiko" have been in contact with Mr.Castela but he wanted to get paid to talk.


Maybe it was Sarah F *X,Joe R***r, Robert N****r, Madalene R****r and Robert Murat in that car.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Guest on 26.10.14 10:16

Really sorry, Nick but I find it hard to follow your reasoning with the asterisked names. Who is the woman Sarah and the man Joe? I've guessed the others.

Perhaps provide a link if you don't want to post the full names?

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by NickE on 26.10.14 11:14

Dee Coy wrote:Really sorry, Nick but I find it hard to follow your reasoning with the asterisked names. Who is the woman Sarah and the man Joe? I've guessed the others.

Perhaps provide a link if you don't want to post the full names?
Sorry, it's something I do automatically, we have a "name publishing law" in this country, it is not allowed to publish names of people in a crime that has not been part of a police investigation.

But...this is England..

Jonthan "Joe" Rider, Madalene´s father.
Sarah Fox, Madalene´s mother.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Guest on 26.10.14 11:18

Thank you, Nick. I'm grateful as I wasn't aware of the other Madelene's parents' names.

I wonder if it was ever established if they were in Luz or not or if Madelene was a guest of the Naylors?

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Hicks on 26.10.14 11:55

Just a thought.

David Payne, about his 30 sec/minute visit to 5a, ' they were all dressed in WHITE and looking like angels' comment. Perhaps he was telling the truth in that Madeleine was wearing white pyjamas.

The first reported description on what Madeleine was wearing when she went missing? White pyjamas.

This news from the Guardian May 4th.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/04/markoliver.

The taxi driver claimed without doubt that the child he picked up was wearing pink pyjamas. The eeyore pyjamas?

Perhaps we have been purposely mislead on the clothing. The child(in pink pyjamas)was taken to a blue Jeep- with UK number plates.

I have never really believed in a sub being used, however, I may be one step closer to believing. Once again GM balcony laughing face come back in mind.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by joyce1938 on 26.10.14 11:56

the top shown from the man now said to given in the p j s to police ,who can see that the top ,looks more like a fleece that you might use over top of jammies ,not definatly not the same as eey awww ones that I saw the macs hold up in a picture for camera? I don't know if it still exists  the pic I mean ..joyce1938

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Rob Royston on 26.10.14 14:19

@Hicks wrote:Just a thought.

David Payne, about his 30 sec/minute visit to 5a, ' they were all dressed in WHITE and looking like angels' comment. Perhaps he was telling the truth in that Madeleine was wearing white pyjamas.

The first reported description on what Madeleine was wearing when she went missing? White pyjamas.

This news from the Guardian May 4th.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/04/markoliver.

The taxi driver claimed without doubt that the child he picked up was wearing pink pyjamas. The eeyore pyjamas?

Perhaps we have been purposely mislead on the clothing. The child(in pink pyjamas)was taken to a blue Jeep- with UK number plates.

I have never really believed in a sub being used, however, I may be one step closer to believing. Once again GM balcony laughing face come back in mind.

If there were two Madeleine's then there is obviously going to be confusion about the clothing. The taxi-driver picked the fare up in Monte Gordo which is east of Faro, about an hour from PDL. They travelled to the Hotel Apolo in nearby Vila Real De Santo Antonio. If they had travelled in a vehicle from PDL why did they use a taxi to get to the Jeep in the hotel car park?
If there was some secret operation taking place then it would be important to get the Maddie sub out of the country before the alarm was raised at PDL. A taxi driving into the hotel would draw less attention than a car coming in and the people transferring to another vehicle.
Robert Murat had another look-a-like in Portugal, his distant cousin who has connections with the Ocean Club. The taxi driver says this man was wearing "fine glasses". Could this group have been setting up the scene for the abduction plan, which collapsed in "disaster".

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by The....truth on 26.10.14 14:47

I have been reading this forum the files, and so on for a long time.

This scenario 'gels' for me. 

I have collected the thoughts of Kiko and Tigger over time, and they fit in place as probable for me.

The phone records, and new to me, the taxi and sub concept, seem to me to be a clear solution to to conundrum.

probably crecheman and even Smithman can be mapped onto the schema also.

The cry of 'They have taken her' finally fits.

IMO only.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Hicks on 26.10.14 16:00

Thetruth wrote:I have been reading this forum the files, and so on for a long time.

This scenario 'gels' for me. 

I have collected the thoughts of Kiko and over time, and they fit in place as probable for me.

The phone records, and new to me, the taxi and sub concept, seem to me to be a clear solution to to conundrum.

probably crecheman and even Smithman can be mapped onto the schema also.

The cry of 'They have taken her' finally fits.

IMO only.
Yes, the McCann's were very cross with  some persons unknown...'the f***ing B***ard's have taken her'.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by j.rob on 26.10.14 16:27

Question is, if Madelene R*der was on holiday with Elizabeth Naylor, her best friend, why was she not in crèche too.


Exactly. It would be beyond weird for a family to take along a playmate for their 4 year old daughter on holiday. Only to park their daughter into the kids' club. And leave the playmate out of the kids' club. 

When did the Naylors arrive in Luz? And I wonder where they stayed if they were not at OC?

If, as I have long suspected (and others too) that this was a pre-planned faked abduction that went wrong, at what point during that week did Plan A get shoe-horned into Plan B?

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by j.rob on 26.10.14 16:33

If there was some secret operation taking place then it would be important to get the Maddie sub out of the country before the alarm was raised at PDL.


What was supposed to be happening to Madeleine McCann that week, then? If she was never in the creche at all? Or did the 'sub' get used when a 'disaster' had befallen early in the week?


Does anyone know when the Naylors and Madeleine Ryder arrived in the area?

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by j.rob on 26.10.14 17:01

Gerry's signing in shows very great liklihood that he signed Elizabeth Naylor in.
I will go and look at the creche sheets to see how often E Naylor was in the creche.



--------


So GM signs in Elizabeth Naylor and Elizabeth Naylor's friend Madeleine Ryder. perhaps.

They possibly went to the same Roman Catholic primary school which was attended by at least one of Tony Blair's children?

http://www.pcc.org.uk/cases/adjudicated.html?article=MTgzMQ==

From which I imagine quite a few children will go on to the Roman Catholic secondary school The Oratory, where Tony Blair and Nick Clegg's children went?  Not to mention the children of a few other high Catholic players, it would seem.

How cozy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Oratory_School

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by cloak'ndagger on 26.10.14 17:09

That is why the much younger photo of Maddie was given to the GNR.  also why Maddie was described as small for her age at 90cm and was blonde.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Hicks on 26.10.14 17:10

@j.rob wrote:If there was some secret operation taking place then it would be important to get the Maddie sub out of the country before the alarm was raised at PDL.


What was supposed to be happening to Madeleine McCann that week, then? If she was never in the creche at all? Or did the 'sub' get used when a 'disaster' had befallen early in the week?


Does anyone know when the Naylors and Madeleine Ryder arrived in the area?
Perhaps it would be a good idea to look at creche sheets again.

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2922p60-the-creche-enquiry. 


There is something strange going on with those sheets. Why would Robert Naylor sign his own name where the child's name should be?. There can't be much doubt that GM was signing in Elisabeth Naylor. But why?
If the Rider's allowed their daughter to substitute Madeleine then they must have known the McCann's well before the holiday, same with the Naylor's. Would you allow a stranger to take your young child to the creche and sign her in? No of course you wouldn't. That would indicate pre-planning.

Did Madalene Rider substitute Madeleine at some point during the week? The same day as GM signed in EN? Was Madalene Rider taken to PDL with the express intention of being used as a sub?

Perhaps the fake Madeleine and her parents fled PDL on the evening of the 3rd( in the taxi) as they were not prepared to continue with the scam. Was the simulated abduction planned for a later time?  Is that why GM had no other choice but to remove the body quickly, as seen by the Smiths. A disaster indeed!

All my opinion. Nothing stated as fact.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by cloak'ndagger on 26.10.14 17:13

Also from what I recall Catriona Baker initially said that Madeleine preferred to play with the boys in the group but later amended it to ''Madeleine preferred to play with Ella''.


I thought the whole substitute Maddie'' idea was ridiculous until I read the crèche thread in its entirety. It made me realise that a lot more planning went into that week than I had at first thought

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by The....truth on 26.10.14 17:27

It has just taken me an age to find this, so I thought I would copy here, from the Twiiter section.

It is highly relevant this thread.

This:
dewi lennard @kikoratton 23 oct




[ltr]@PJudiciaria Please take a look at Kate McCann's mobile contact at 1217 on 1 May 2007. Who was at the other end of the call/SMS? RN or AN ??[/ltr]

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Nina on 26.10.14 17:30

@j.rob wrote:Gerry's signing in shows very great liklihood that he signed Elizabeth Naylor in.
I will go and look at the creche sheets to see how often E Naylor was in the creche.



--------


So GM signs in Elizabeth Naylor and Elizabeth Naylor's friend Madeleine Ryder. perhaps.

They possibly went to the same Roman Catholic primary school which was attended by at least one of Tony Blair's children?

http://www.pcc.org.uk/cases/adjudicated.html?article=MTgzMQ==

From which I imagine quite a few children will go on to the Roman Catholic secondary school The Oratory, where Tony Blair and Nick Clegg's children went?  Not to mention the children of a few other high Catholic players, it would seem.

How cozy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Oratory_School
Yes the Blairs youngest son Leo went to the same school..........

snipped,..........

Sister act closes
It’s the end of an era: Sister Hannah Dwyer is stepping down as headmistress of Larmenier, the Catholic primary school whose alumni include Tony Blair’s son Leo.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/10386303/The-White-Queen-is-to-make-a-comeback.html

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Hicks on 26.10.14 17:36

Is this the same school as the one Madalene Rider attended, and Elisabeth Naylor?

Look at the bit that says..'midsummers night dream.'

http://larshrc.lbhf.sch.uk/sites/default/files/file_uploads/newletter-_issue120.pdf.

Ok so that link won't work. Both Madalene Rider and Elisabeth Naylor attended the above school.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Guest on 26.10.14 17:42

@Hicks wrote:
Perhaps the fake Madeleine and her parents fled PDL on the evening of the 3rd( in the taxi) as they were not prepared to continue with the scam. Was the simulated abduction planned for a later time?  Is that why GM had no other choice but to remove the body quickly, as seen by the Smiths. A disaster indeed!

All my opinion. Nothing stated as fact.

"They've taken her!"

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