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Crèche signatures revisited

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by NickE on 27.10.14 20:49

A thought that struck me is the Paraiso visit with surveillance camera. 
The Tapas gang said: "Say cheese to the camera, we are here not there." And as a coincidence they saw Kate jogging outside Paraiso. 
"Jane Tanner says she saw Kate jogging alone on the beach at 17:15. This was the 'high tea' time for the children". 
"5:15/5:20 pm According To Matthew, Paraiso group sees Kate jogging on the beach - they wave." 
16:30-17:30 "Gerry stays on at the courts and plays with Julian"

Tapas gang got cought on camera and they saw Kate and Gerry was playing tennis with Julian..... thinking
Did Something happened elsewhere by someone else during this time,maybe a Tapas 10,11....or?

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by j.rob on 27.10.14 22:49

@Rob Royston wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
@Rob Royston wrote:
@j.rob wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:Carrying her through the streets of Luz to the taxi home, you mean? omg

I always thought Redwood's Crecheman had to be based on a loose truth, in case he's ever needed in court.

This is the description given by Jose Cardoso:


António Castelo says the girl was wearing pink pyjamas and is certain she was in fact Madeleine.

A taxi driver for the past 17 years, he says he noted her eye, “As my son, who is a police officer, has a similar defect”. “Madeleine was with three men, one of whom looked like Robert Murat, and a blonde woman,” he said.

“The blonde woman with them looked to me like Madeleine’s mother but I couldn’t say whether or not it was her,” he said.


These are the clothes and blanket Crecheman's child was dressed in, thanks to the Daily Mail:



So we know it is a FACT that Madeleine McCann did not have a coloboma.

The taxi driver is sure that the girl in pink pajamas that looked like Madeleine McCann had a coloboma as his son has one.

Does Madeleine Ryder have a coloboma??

Was she the girl in the taxi?
They did not get in this taxi in Luz. They got this taxi at the Taxi Square in Morte Gordo, about an hour from Luz. The girl in the taxi could not have been carried by Crecheman at the times quoted by Jane Tanner.

Thanks, Roy.

If it's the Riders, then, that's a complicated journey. Transport (somehow) to  Morte Gordo, taxi to hotel, rendevous with van at hotel.

Read yesterday that the taxi driver wanted money for further interviews, which always makes me extremely sceptical.

It's not really complicated. The UK plated Jeep is parked in the hotel car park, well away from PDL so not likely to draw attention. There were two men as well as the family. One could have been his friend RN and the other could have been the person who provided the transport for the journey, a Robert Murat Look-a-like according to the taxi driver. I have never seen anything about where the Riders were accommodated, that would make things a bit clearer.


Maybe Robert Murat flew over to Luz at the last minute not so much to 'help' the McCanns get out of a pickle (the plan B 'disaster/co**-up' scenario) as to get some other people out of a pickle (the Plan A faked abduction gone wrong pickle)?

Just suppose Madeleine Rider (or is it Ryder?) had been passed off as Madeleine McCann in the kid's club. Just suppose there had been a plan A which was for a staged faked abduction. Just suppose Plan A had gone wrong (as early as Saturday/Sunday perhaps). 

Key players in Plan A wanted to get the hell out of there.

While key players in Plan B hang on to the wreckage of the botched faked abduction.

But how peculiar that the taxi driver's son - a policeman no less - allegedly had a colomba! Which is why he spotted this distinguishing feature in the girl in the taxi. So if this girl was Madelene Rider, the adults accompanying her were not making much attempt to conceal her identity, were they?

Wilkins, O'Donnell and the Nylers bail out at the last minute? Or cotton onto something perhaps. 

Here we go with riddles again. The colomba is the 'key' to unravelling the mystery perhaps? Or at least one of the keys? It is remarkably odd that TM in the early days should flag up Madeleine's colomba when she didn't have one. And what is more in a poster which says: "Find Maddie" when they later on claim that Madeleine was not known as Maddie.

Was Madelene N known as Maddie and did she have a colomba?

Good grief, this turns more and more into an Agatha Christie plot every day.

Bizarre in the extreme.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Rob Royston on 27.10.14 23:17

@j.rob wrote:
@Rob Royston wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
@Rob Royston wrote:
@j.rob wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:Carrying her through the streets of Luz to the taxi home, you mean? omg

I always thought Redwood's Crecheman had to be based on a loose truth, in case he's ever needed in court.

This is the description given by Jose Cardoso:


António Castelo says the girl was wearing pink pyjamas and is certain she was in fact Madeleine.

A taxi driver for the past 17 years, he says he noted her eye, “As my son, who is a police officer, has a similar defect”. “Madeleine was with three men, one of whom looked like Robert Murat, and a blonde woman,” he said.

“The blonde woman with them looked to me like Madeleine’s mother but I couldn’t say whether or not it was her,” he said.


These are the clothes and blanket Crecheman's child was dressed in, thanks to the Daily Mail:



So we know it is a FACT that Madeleine McCann did not have a coloboma.

The taxi driver is sure that the girl in pink pajamas that looked like Madeleine McCann had a coloboma as his son has one.

Does Madeleine Ryder have a coloboma??

Was she the girl in the taxi?
They did not get in this taxi in Luz. They got this taxi at the Taxi Square in Morte Gordo, about an hour from Luz. The girl in the taxi could not have been carried by Crecheman at the times quoted by Jane Tanner.

Thanks, Roy.

If it's the Riders, then, that's a complicated journey. Transport (somehow) to  Morte Gordo, taxi to hotel, rendevous with van at hotel.

Read yesterday that the taxi driver wanted money for further interviews, which always makes me extremely sceptical.

It's not really complicated. The UK plated Jeep is parked in the hotel car park, well away from PDL so not likely to draw attention. There were two men as well as the family. One could have been his friend RN and the other could have been the person who provided the transport for the journey, a Robert Murat Look-a-like according to the taxi driver. I have never seen anything about where the Riders were accommodated, that would make things a bit clearer.


Maybe Robert Murat flew over to Luz at the last minute not so much to 'help' the McCanns get out of a pickle (the plan B 'disaster/co**-up' scenario) as to get some other people out of a pickle (the Plan A faked abduction gone wrong pickle)?

Just suppose Madeleine Rider (or is it Ryder?) had been passed off as Madeleine McCann in the kid's club. Just suppose there had been a plan A which was for a staged faked abduction. Just suppose Plan A had gone wrong (as early as Saturday/Sunday perhaps). 

Key players in Plan A wanted to get the hell out of there.

While key players in Plan B hang on to the wreckage of the botched faked abduction.

But how peculiar that the taxi driver's son - a policeman no less - allegedly had a colomba! Which is why he spotted this distinguishing feature in the girl in the taxi. So if this girl was Madelene Rider, the adults accompanying her were not making much attempt to conceal her identity, were they?

Wilkins, O'Donnell and the Nylers bail out at the last minute? Or cotton onto something perhaps. 

Here we go with riddles again. The colomba is the 'key' to unravelling the mystery perhaps? Or at least one of the keys? It is remarkably odd that TM in the early days should flag up Madeleine's colomba when she didn't have one. And what is more in a poster which says: "Find Maddie" when they later on claim that Madeleine was not known as Maddie.

Was Madelene N known as Maddie and did she have a colomba?

Good grief, this turns more and more into an Agatha Christie plot every day.

Bizarre in the extreme.
If the taxi story is true, I am not saying it was Robert Murat who was present. He had two connected look-a-likes. It could be that nobody in the taxi was aware of the "disaster" that had happened within the other group. They were getting the "sub" out of the country before the alarm was raised.
I'm sure that I read somewhere that the Madaline in the crèche had said, "My name is not Maddie, it's Madaline". Maybe someone can remember where this was said, that's if I have it right.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by NickE on 28.10.14 6:07

@Rob Royston wrote:
@j.rob wrote:
@Rob Royston wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
@Rob Royston wrote:
@j.rob wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:Carrying her through the streets of Luz to the taxi home, you mean? omg

I always thought Redwood's Crecheman had to be based on a loose truth, in case he's ever needed in court.

This is the description given by Jose Cardoso:


António Castelo says the girl was wearing pink pyjamas and is certain she was in fact Madeleine.

A taxi driver for the past 17 years, he says he noted her eye, “As my son, who is a police officer, has a similar defect”. “Madeleine was with three men, one of whom looked like Robert Murat, and a blonde woman,” he said.

“The blonde woman with them looked to me like Madeleine’s mother but I couldn’t say whether or not it was her,” he said.


These are the clothes and blanket Crecheman's child was dressed in, thanks to the Daily Mail:



So we know it is a FACT that Madeleine McCann did not have a coloboma.

The taxi driver is sure that the girl in pink pajamas that looked like Madeleine McCann had a coloboma as his son has one.

Does Madeleine Ryder have a coloboma??

Was she the girl in the taxi?
They did not get in this taxi in Luz. They got this taxi at the Taxi Square in Morte Gordo, about an hour from Luz. The girl in the taxi could not have been carried by Crecheman at the times quoted by Jane Tanner.

Thanks, Roy.

If it's the Riders, then, that's a complicated journey. Transport (somehow) to  Morte Gordo, taxi to hotel, rendevous with van at hotel.

Read yesterday that the taxi driver wanted money for further interviews, which always makes me extremely sceptical.

It's not really complicated. The UK plated Jeep is parked in the hotel car park, well away from PDL so not likely to draw attention. There were two men as well as the family. One could have been his friend RN and the other could have been the person who provided the transport for the journey, a Robert Murat Look-a-like according to the taxi driver. I have never seen anything about where the Riders were accommodated, that would make things a bit clearer.


Maybe Robert Murat flew over to Luz at the last minute not so much to 'help' the McCanns get out of a pickle (the plan B 'disaster/co**-up' scenario) as to get some other people out of a pickle (the Plan A faked abduction gone wrong pickle)?

Just suppose Madeleine Rider (or is it Ryder?) had been passed off as Madeleine McCann in the kid's club. Just suppose there had been a plan A which was for a staged faked abduction. Just suppose Plan A had gone wrong (as early as Saturday/Sunday perhaps). 

Key players in Plan A wanted to get the hell out of there.

While key players in Plan B hang on to the wreckage of the botched faked abduction.

But how peculiar that the taxi driver's son - a policeman no less - allegedly had a colomba! Which is why he spotted this distinguishing feature in the girl in the taxi. So if this girl was Madelene Rider, the adults accompanying her were not making much attempt to conceal her identity, were they?

Wilkins, O'Donnell and the Nylers bail out at the last minute? Or cotton onto something perhaps. 

Here we go with riddles again. The colomba is the 'key' to unravelling the mystery perhaps? Or at least one of the keys? It is remarkably odd that TM in the early days should flag up Madeleine's colomba when she didn't have one. And what is more in a poster which says: "Find Maddie" when they later on claim that Madeleine was not known as Maddie.

Was Madelene N known as Maddie and did she have a colomba?

Good grief, this turns more and more into an Agatha Christie plot every day.

Bizarre in the extreme.
If the taxi story is true, I am not saying it was Robert Murat who was present. He had two connected look-a-likes. It could be that nobody in the taxi was aware of the "disaster" that had happened within the other group. They were getting the "sub" out of the country before the alarm was raised.
I'm sure that I read somewhere that the Madaline in the crèche had said, "My name is not Maddie, it's Madaline". Maybe someone can remember where this was said, that's if I have it right.
That´s correct.
Made(i)(a)lene said to the nanny When She arrived at the creche, "My name is Maddie" 
But Kate said she never called her "Maddie" and she hated when someone said "Maddie" and she said "My name is Madeleine." 
Madalene and Madeleine different spellings and different pronunciations. 
My teory If there was a substitute girl, they called her Maddie to eliminate the risk of any confusion.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by biggles on 28.10.14 7:21

IMHO it would be extremely unlikely for the driver to be able notice the coloboma. Was this taxi journey in the evening? What were the light-levels like? Unless the sun was shining directly onto the child's face and illuminated her, and the taxi driver just happened to be looking at her, at that moment. Its just... unlikely.  More likely (again IMHO) that the taxi driver is 'in' on the plan and this was yet-another distraction

But I must say this theory with the substitute and Plan A->B is intriguing!

edited as the text i quoted disappeared.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Guest on 28.10.14 7:27

My understanding is that MBM (Maddie) became Madeleine after the event as MR, alleged substitute, was known as Madelene. They are pronounced in a similar way.

Kate always says something for a reason. 

All IMO.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Snifferdog on 28.10.14 7:33

An interesting and very plausible theory Rob Royston. It would explain the very sudden and early departure of some of the guests.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Rob Royston on 28.10.14 11:08

@Snifferdog wrote:An interesting and very plausible theory Rob Royston. It would explain the very sudden and early departure of some of the guests.

If the theory were to be true it would still only be a small act in what would appear to be a large pre-arranged play.

Did I read somewhere of someone hearing a man saying "Why did you bring her here?" to another person in the area where Smithman was spotted? Could Smithman have stuck to the script and delivered Maddie as per the plan? The courier could have refused to accept a body or to transfer it to the waiting transport, ship or whatever.
We could speculate on how far the original plans went and what new plans had to be made to cover for the alleged unexpected event. All IMO only.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Gaggzy on 28.10.14 18:18

@j.rob wrote:"At around 10pm, police officers see Gerry McCann, going past the apartment at the wheel of his hire car, a Renault Mégane Scenic, an impenetrable look on his face."




A bit like this, maybe?





http://www.mccannfiles.com/id1.html


'Sean, will you stop eating those sea bass butties in the car. They stink.'

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Gaggzy on 28.10.14 18:28



Smith man and Taxi woman share a joke on Lorraine's chaise-lounge following another ego-massaging session from Kelly-on-the-telly.

She had just asked them - off camera - if they'd ever consider appearing on Celebrity Juice.


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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by NickE on 28.10.14 18:34


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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Guest on 28.10.14 18:55

Reports are from July this year! How come I missed them?

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by j.rob on 28.10.14 20:17


Wow! Interesting. It may or may not be true but did/does it mark the beginning of a turn in terms of the case??

Or is it just another 'tease'? To keep the story running when people are now so bored of all the McCann PR stuff?

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Guest on 28.10.14 20:51

These individuals were eliminated, but were they ever positively identified?


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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by plebgate on 29.10.14 6:43

All the sightings reported and yet one has to ask (again) as many people have done in the past -  Why would anyone be walking into a shop or any public place with the most recognisable missing child on the planet.    Maybe they were just waiting to be nicked? dontgetit

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by plebgate on 29.10.14 6:45

@Gaggzy wrote:

Smith man and Taxi woman share a joke on Lorraine's chaise-lounge following another ego-massaging session from Kelly-on-the-telly.

She had just asked them - off camera - if they'd ever consider appearing on Celebrity Juice.


notme
I must admit they don't look very harrassed to me in that pic.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by PeterMac on 29.10.14 7:57

@plebgate wrote:
I must admit they don't look very harrassed to me in that pic.
You have misunderstood. That is not them looking harassed
that is them showing  this . . .
They claim
£215,000 each
for emotional distress

They say they suffer
'permanent anxiety, insomnia, lack of appetite,
irritability and an indefinable fear'.

The writ also says Kate McCann is
'steeped in a deep and serious depression'.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Dr What on 29.10.14 10:10

Maybe, despite the high levels of anxiety, fear and insomnia, he has found a moment to tickle her fancy with his right hand.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Gaggzy on 29.10.14 12:02

@Dr What wrote:Maybe, despite the high levels of anxiety, fear and insomnia, he has found a moment to tickle her fancy with his right hand.


..... and as for her LEFT hand!

Maybe that GQWB should have been tightened up.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Inspector Clouseau on 29.10.14 17:07

I've been trying to work out how this substitution would work. So, If I was doing this I would want to ensure the same person was in the creche everyday, I wouldn't risk putting my child in one day and then the other child the next day as there would be too much risk of someone noticing the child was different.

So how would I convince someone to lend me their child ?

The only palatable reason would be if they wanted their child to go into their creche. If they were staying outside OC (so no entitlement to use the creche), and their child's best friend was attending then it's a nice neat solution. I convince them that my own child doesn't really want to go in the creche, so why don't I pretend their child is mine. Everyone is happy, and why would anyone question it ?
After the event, the other couple might want to keep quiet about the switch, after all they've been a little naughty by not paying for the creche, they see the huge media storm, and think the abduction is nothing to do with them.

So it would clearly help if the substitute looks like my own child and had a very similar name, but the random chance of finding someone with these characteristics would be too high, which would mean I would need to identify them in advance and know them, as you couldn't do this on the first morning of the creche.

The arrival / departure dates of the substitute child seem to match the attendance records of the creche, if it turned out she had a coloboma I would be raising at least one eyebrow.

So I can only see three scenarios (all of which I have problems with....)
1) Pure co-incidence. I'd already agreed to sign the friend in as a favour, as my child didn't want to attend. When something happened to my own child later on, I would be able to use the substitute to create an alternate story.

2) Something happened very early on during the holiday which required a substitute AND coincidentally there was a suitable substitute available who I could use. (Any phone records of the MC's calling the Naylors early on during the holiday ?)

3) It was planned well in advance of the actual holiday - but I can't see any reason for this - other than a fake abduction for money, and there's no guarantee how much you will get, and also too many people involved.

I still can't be sure whether this substitute theory is just another red herring / area of confusion.

I.C.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by NickE on 29.10.14 17:39

@Inspector Clouseau wrote:I've been trying to work out how this substitution would work. So, If I was doing this I would want to ensure the same person was in the creche everyday, I wouldn't risk putting my child in one day and then the other child the next day as there would be too much risk of someone noticing the child was different.

So how would I convince someone to lend me their child ?

The only palatable reason would be if they wanted their child to go into their creche. If they were staying outside OC (so no entitlement to use the creche), and their child's best friend was attending then it's a nice neat solution. I convince them that my own child doesn't really want to go in the creche, so why don't I pretend their child is mine. Everyone is happy, and why would anyone question it ?
After the event, the other couple might want to keep quiet about the switch, after all they've been a little naughty by not paying for the creche, they see the huge media storm, and think the abduction is nothing to do with them.

So it would clearly help if the substitute looks like my own child and had a very similar name, but the random chance of finding someone with these characteristics would be too high, which would mean I would need to identify them in advance and know them, as you couldn't do this on the first morning of the creche.

The arrival / departure dates of the substitute child seem to match the attendance records of the creche, if it turned out she had a coloboma I would be raising at least one eyebrow.

So I can only see three scenarios (all of which I have problems with....)
1) Pure co-incidence. I'd already agreed to sign the friend in as a favour, as my child didn't want to attend. When something happened to my own child later on, I would be able to use the substitute to create an alternate story.

2) Something happened very early on during the holiday which required a substitute AND coincidentally there was a suitable substitute available who I could use. (Any phone records of the MC's calling the Naylors early on during the holiday ?)

3) It was planned well in advance of the actual holiday - but I can't see any reason for this - other than a fake abduction for money, and there's no guarantee how much you will get, and also too many people involved.

I still can't be sure whether this substitute theory is just another red herring / area of confusion.

I.C.
Working on it. wink4

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by canada12 on 29.10.14 17:48

Perhaps a simpler explanation might be that the sign-in sheets just weren't that closely monitored by the nannies in the creche. Perhaps this was noticed by the McCanns, who then took advantage of this by signing Madeleine in and out, even if she wasn't actually there. This might explain why the nannies were whisked away very quickly - perhaps after Madeleine disappeared they, and MW, had a closer look at the sign-in sheets and realized that they hadn't been monitored very well, and this would leave them open to all kinds of accusations and liabilities and reputation-damaging results.

This is a much more easily imagined scenario...

IMO only.

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by Hicks on 29.10.14 19:54

@canada12 wrote:Perhaps a simpler explanation might be that the sign-in sheets just weren't that closely monitored by the nannies in the creche. Perhaps this was noticed by the McCanns, who then took advantage of this by signing Madeleine in and out, even if she wasn't actually there. This might explain why the nannies were whisked away very quickly - perhaps after Madeleine disappeared they, and MW, had a closer look at the sign-in sheets and realized that they hadn't been monitored very well, and this would leave them open to all kinds of accusations and liabilities and reputation-damaging results.

This is a much more easily imagined scenario...

IMO only.
That is a good explanation. Why would  Cat Baker be so stressed, not being able to eat or go out? There must have been a reason why the nannies were moved on asap.
Cat baker even signed the sheets. I wonder how quickly the sheets were given to the PJ. There are crossings out with other names added. Could this have been done after MBM went missing? 
In other words, were the sheets doctored after to fit in with the McCann's version of events?

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Re: Crèche signatures revisited

Post by ultimaThule on 29.10.14 20:15

IMO too, canada.

It may be unsurprising that MW sought to limit the potential damage that could have occurred to their reputation as 'family' holiday specialists by invoking the pre-retained services of the Centre for Cod Crisis Psychology, but the speedy redeployment of all of the creche workers who had dealings with the McCanns and the Tapas 7 is curious in the extreme and I suspect that their rapid despatch from Portugal took place without any prior consultation with the PJ.  .  .

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