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SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

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Looking at the two CrimeWatch e-fits again

40% 40% 
[ 27 ]
60% 60% 
[ 41 ]
 
Total Votes : 68

Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by nglfi on 19.09.14 19:16

Similarities - 

1. Eyebrow shape and thickness
2. Hair of both appears to be cut short but it would be curly if they let it grow
3. Similar moustache area
4. To me the noses appear the same length, with both having a downward tipped nose and similar size/shape nostrils
5. To me the hairline shape looks the same.

Having said that, the two face shapes are different but I believe Deecoy has provided a good explanation for that!

Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable (although i hate to use that phrase now!)People's ability to recall varies wildly and I believe these could be two individuals recollection of the same person.

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by palm tree on 19.09.14 19:22

@nglfi wrote:Similarities - 

1. Eyebrow shape and thickness
2. Hair of both appears to be cut short but it would be curly if they let it grow
3. Similar moustache area
4. To me the noses appear the same length, with both having a downward tipped nose and similar size/shape nostrils
5. To me the hairline shape looks the same.

Having said that, the two face shapes are different but I believe Deecoy has provided a good explanation for that!

Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable (although i hate to use that phrase now!)People's ability to recall varies wildly and I believe these could be two individuals recollection of the same person.
Agree  thumbsup

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by j.rob on 19.09.14 20:23

@palm tree wrote:I wonder what would've happened if he'd carried an awake Amelie?
IMO

I wonder if, for whatever reason, it was important that Amelie was asleep when being photographed being carried off the plane? Sean was awake and looking forwards so he is captured by the press photographers.

Whereas Amelie seemed to have been in a deep sleep, judging by how she was carried over Gerry's shoulder. So you cannot see her face at all.

Perhaps of interest that Gerry was carrying Madeleine's sister (rather than her brother who was being carried by Kate) on the family return from the fateful holiday during which one of their children apparently mysteriously vanished.

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by palm tree on 19.09.14 21:06

@j.rob wrote:
@palm tree wrote:I wonder what would've happened if he'd carried an awake Amelie?
IMO

I wonder if, for whatever reason, it was important that Amelie was asleep when being photographed being carried off the plane? Sean was awake and looking forwards so he is captured by the press photographers.

Whereas Amelie seemed to have been in a deep sleep, judging by how she was carried over Gerry's shoulder. So you cannot see her face at all.

Perhaps of interest that Gerry was carrying Madeleine's sister (rather than her brother who was being carried by Kate) on the family return from the fateful holiday during which one of their children apparently mysteriously vanished.
Shit sorry j rob, I thought gm was carrying a sleeping Sean! Hope I haven't confused anyone  blushing1

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by pennylane on 19.09.14 21:54

@palm tree wrote:
@j.rob wrote:
@palm tree wrote:I wonder what would've happened if he'd carried an awake Amelie?
IMO

I wonder if, for whatever reason, it was important that Amelie was asleep when being photographed being carried off the plane? Sean was awake and looking forwards so he is captured by the press photographers.

Whereas Amelie seemed to have been in a deep sleep, judging by how she was carried over Gerry's shoulder. So you cannot see her face at all.

Perhaps of interest that Gerry was carrying Madeleine's sister (rather than her brother who was being carried by Kate) on the family return from the fateful holiday during which one of their children apparently mysteriously vanished.
Shit sorry j rob, I thought gm was carrying a sleeping Sean! Hope I haven't confused anyone  blushing1
GM was definitely carrying a sleeping Sean off the plane and KM was carrying Amelie behind him.

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by palm tree on 19.09.14 22:35

@pennylane wrote:
@palm tree wrote:
@j.rob wrote:
@palm tree wrote:I wonder what would've happened if he'd carried an awake Amelie?
IMO

I wonder if, for whatever reason, it was important that Amelie was asleep when being photographed being carried off the plane? Sean was awake and looking forwards so he is captured by the press photographers.

Whereas Amelie seemed to have been in a deep sleep, judging by how she was carried over Gerry's shoulder. So you cannot see her face at all.

Perhaps of interest that Gerry was carrying Madeleine's sister (rather than her brother who was being carried by Kate) on the family return from the fateful holiday during which one of their children apparently mysteriously vanished.
Shit sorry j rob, I thought gm was carrying a sleeping Sean! Hope I haven't confused anyone  blushing1
GM was definitely carrying a sleeping Sean off the plane and KM was carrying Amelie behind him.
I thought I'd had it wrong but I did go back to check, thank you pennylane.

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Markus 2 on 19.09.14 23:18

This man has gained some weight now by the looks of it, very possible ,hmm the same man.

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Markus 2 on 20.09.14 23:26

Almost 1,000 people have now contacted Scotland Yard and BBC Crimewatch with information regarding Madeleine's abduction from the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz on May 3, 2007.
More than 730 calls were made and 212 emails received as a result of the appeal shown on Monday night.
Among them were two independent callers who phoned police on Monday night with the same name for the man shown on the e-fit picture.
Crimewatch editor Joe Mather said the response was "truly unprecedented" and there were lots of calls from British people who were in Praia da Luz at the time but had not previously contacted police.

What became of these two identified by callers ,wonder who they were, or if they were followed up.

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.09.14 1:05

@nglfi wrote:Similarities - 

1. Eyebrow shape and thickness

OK, I concede that

2. Hair of both appears to be cut short but it would be curly if they let it grow

The man on the right appears to have slightly longer hair, curly, and combed or blown backwards and up. I don't see these features on the man on the left
 

3. Similar moustache area

OK, maybe

4. To me the noses appear the same length, with both having a downward tipped nose and similar size/shape nostrils

The facts are against you on that one. Taking a measurement from the level of the top of the eyes to the tip of the nose, the man on the right's nose is just 16mm, while the one on the left is 20mm - 25% longer

5. To me the hairline shape looks the same.

OK, very similar, but then so it is for millions of men

Having said that, the two face shapes are different but I believe Dee Coy has provided a good explanation for that!

Here are some more significant differences:

Width of the face at the lips: left man, 31mm, right man 38mm (23% broader)

Depth of chin: left man 10mm, right man 14mm (40% deeper)

Distance between eyeballs: left man 14mm, right man 11mm.

I do not agree that Dee Coy has provided anything like a good explanation for all these differences   

Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable (although Ii hate to use that phrase now!). People's ability to recall varies wildly

Recall of a man seen fleetingly in the dark 12 to 17 months previously would be bound to be so seriously unreliable as to be useless, unless he had a significant distinguishing feature
  

and I believe these could be two individuals recollection of the same person.

OK, we disagree on that. But could you ask yourself another question, why on earth would ANY police force issue two separate efits that DO look to many as quite different people? If, as claimed, these e-fits were drawn up by the Smiths, surely a police officer would go back and forth and say, e.g. do you think he really had such a long nose? was his hair definitely blown back, or not? do you distinctly remember a large chin? - and would then go back again and again until they had just ONE clear image to put to the public.

And another thing. What, really, is the value of these images after six-and-a-half years? If anyone else had seen a man carrying a child around Praia da Luz, they would have reported it a long time ago.

Nothing adds up about these two e-fits, so I remain of the same view as Wendy Murphy on Fox News.

I'm not buying it    

     

Former U.S. prosecutor Wendy Murphy: 'This is more PR than anything'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf4wVANuNRY

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Seek truth on 21.09.14 2:55

Same nose length and nostrils?
hysterical

Walking down the street one day
Saw a man who walked my way
Instead of looking at his eyes and hair
Noticed his nose because it was all that was there!

Yes that's it THE NOSE. liar

That's how you recognise people.

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by pennylane on 21.09.14 7:45

Has anyone here had to describe a person to the police? I have, and I think it's ill-advised to believe that because there are differences in the e-fits, that it cannot be the same person! Try describing your postman or neighbor, for example, especially his hairstyle, eyes and chin.  Then get your spouse to do the same.

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by pennylane on 21.09.14 8:03

@palm tree wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
@palm tree wrote:
@j.rob wrote:
@palm tree wrote:I wonder what would've happened if he'd carried an awake Amelie?
IMO

I wonder if, for whatever reason, it was important that Amelie was asleep when being photographed being carried off the plane? Sean was awake and looking forwards so he is captured by the press photographers.

Whereas Amelie seemed to have been in a deep sleep, judging by how she was carried over Gerry's shoulder. So you cannot see her face at all.

Perhaps of interest that Gerry was carrying Madeleine's sister (rather than her brother who was being carried by Kate) on the family return from the fateful holiday during which one of their children apparently mysteriously vanished.
Shit sorry j rob, I thought gm was carrying a sleeping Sean! Hope I haven't confused anyone  blushing1
GM was definitely carrying a sleeping Sean off the plane and KM was carrying Amelie behind him.
I thought I'd had it wrong but I did go back to check, thank you pennylane.
You're welcome palm tree x

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by nglfi on 21.09.14 9:01

@Seek truth wrote:Same nose length and nostrils?
hysterical

Walking down the street one day
Saw a man who walked my way
Instead of looking at his eyes and hair
Noticed his nose because it was all that was there!

Yes that's it THE NOSE. liar

That's how you recognise people.
Yes, same nose length and nostrils. The nose is normally the biggest feature on the face and the part that protrudes furthest. It's an important one to get right. Did someone have a big or small nose? Was it snub or hooked? Etc.

@Tony, I appreciate your reply, and I don't have an answer for why two e fits have been shown, when I will agree that many people think they are of different people.  The only thing I can think is that they were drawn up by two different witnesses, those witnesses are quite definite about what they saw and will not be swayed. Redwood might get in trouble if he went back to them as you say and tried to persuade them to change it. There's certainly something odd about them. I did see a post on here somewhere comparing them to a picture of Martin Brunt and another journalist who I can't remember, and the likeness of both was so similar it was scary. However my brain won't let me think about that because it get's far too complicated and I can't even begin to think why that would be the case!

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.09.14 9:30

@nglfi wrote:
@Tony, I appreciate your reply, and I don't have an answer for why two e-fits have been shown, when I will agree that many people think they are of different people.  The only thing I can think is that they were drawn up by two different witnesses, those witnesses are quite definite about what they saw and will not be swayed. Redwood might get in trouble if he went back to them as you say and tried to persuade them to change it. There's certainly something odd about them. I did see a post on here somewhere comparing them to a picture of Martin Brunt and another journalist who I can't remember, and the likeness of both was so similar it was scary. However my brain won't let me think about that because it get's far too complicated and I can't even begin to think why that would be the case!
My hypothesis on this, just to make it very clear to all here, is that these two images were created by the dishonest team of Kevin Halligen and former head of Covert Operations for MI5, Henri Exton, and are manipulated images of photographs of two actual individuals, both living in the south of England.

These two individuals, I would suggest, have a remote connection with the Madeleine McCann mystery but have nothing to do with events in Praia da Luz. I have two actual names in view. This fully explains why these images are indeed of two quite different people. 

I would further suggest that after the three phantom abductors we have had so far (Tannerman, Sagres man and Crecheman), for Operation Grange to claim that these two images of different men are one man is a desperate 'last throw' of DCI Redwood and his team to try to convince a British public, who largely swallow what the mainstream media have told us about this case, that there really was an abductor seen carrying away a child on 3 May.

I further suggest that Martin Smith has been interviewed by Operation Grange twice, once in 2012 and once in 2013, as we know on the record, to see if he would endorse these two e-fits as being made by him and members of his family.

My further hypothesis is that he has NOT endorsed these two e-fits, as he knows they were not created by himself and members of his family. That in my view perfectly explains why BBC CrimeWatch presenter Matthew Amroliwala did NOT say that these images were created by 'members of the Irish family' but very deliberately said they were created 'by two of the witnesses'. Remember that every single word of that broadcast would have been checked, double-checked and triple-checked before being approved by the top brass in the BBC and also Redwood's masters in the Met. The choice of 'two of the witnesses' rather than 'two members of the Irish family' was IMO deliberate and a deception.  

Another issue falls into place if my hypothesis right.

Why, according to the Sunday Times publishd apology, were these 2-efits...

...not used by the McCanns?

...not used by Leicestershire Police?

...not used by the Portuguese Police?

...handed to DCI Redwood in August 2011 but not used by him until October 2013, two years and two months after he first got them?

I suggest the answer is because all of the above knew, or suspected that, the claim that these images were produced by the Smiths was false.

So, final point, why is DCI Redwood using these images now?

My hypotheses on this is that Operation Grange has been given a brief to find 'closure' in this case in the near future, and that despite knowing fine well that these images were NOT produced by the Smiths, Redwood has knowingly, and in desperation, used them as part of the ongoing deception to 'prove' that an abductor was really seen carrying a child around Praia da Luz that night.

I am only putting forward a hypothesis based on all that we know about these e-fits and my hypothesis may be incorrect.

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Markus 2 on 21.09.14 9:59


I am only putting forward a hypothesis based on all that we know about these e-fits and my hypothesis may be incorrect.




Not necessarily, they may know who it is. They, the mccanns, dont want to be associated with them . Also you have to consider these images representing, one close up and the other at a distance. The only difference I can see  is around the chin area and that could all be to do with the angle, same receding hairline, similar mouth ,nose beady eyes.

Definitely not false imo, We dont know what the Police might be looking into. Redwood said it was not the McCann's.  If it is a dud then why release it if they think it is fake, would not make sense  after all these years,  more to this then we know, I suspect.
But one thing I do agree on I can see this  case  tied up soon with no agreeable outcome ,just in time when Redwood retires.

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by palm tree on 21.09.14 11:42

For some reason, I don't think AR can use pretend efits now, and expect the world to believe him. There's just too much of this case known for it to end this way. Ah, yes it was that man there, but he's gone now and so is the child. Oh, and just forget about the scent of death in the villa, on km clothes, cuddlecat, child's top, hire car and key fob, there's perfect explainations for all of that! Who's gonna sit back and watch AR tell us, this person took her somewhere, but both are long gone now, and if I was MS, well I wouldn't need to draw any efit.
IMO only.

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.09.14 12:00

@palm tree wrote:For some reason, I don't think AR can use pretend efits now, and expect the world to believe him.
Pretend smelly bin-man

Pretend six cleaners in a van

Pretend search with pickaxes

Pretend Monteiro

Pretend burglar man

Pretend crecheman

Pretend 'Smithman' e-fits

Pretend suspcious-looking blonde men

Pretend Smithman

Pretend helicopter rides

Pretend co-operation with Portuguese police

Pretend interviews with named suspects

Pretend 'hundreds of leads'

Pretend '60 suspects'

Pretend 'arrests soon'

Pretend visit of CPS lawyers to Portugal

Pretend 'breakthrough'

Charade

Performance

Show

Fake

False

Mockery

Farce

Deception


WRONG REMIT

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by palm tree on 21.09.14 12:26

I think there's a lot who didn't believe all of that either, they're trying their best though, I'll give them that. I also think that OG are getting the mcs into a very tight corner for when the time is right, keep on going OG. If it's a whitewash, then they're trapping themselves also.
IMO

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Markus 2 on 21.09.14 12:48

Charade

Performance

Show

Fake

False

Mockery

Farce

Deception


WRONG REMIT

Possibly but still not convinced  the Smiths sightings are a sham

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Guest on 21.09.14 12:51

If I'm reading Tony right, he's saying the e-fits have nothing to do with the Smith sighting at all?

In which case, to whom do they relate? I know you've said they are of photos of 2 men down South, Tony, but to whom in the case are they supposed to be representative of, if not Smithman? Which unidentified person in the mystery were the witnesses asked to reproduce?

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Markus 2 on 21.09.14 12:54

Pat Brown claims that the McCanns are dismissive of the Smith sighting
 

surely not all a scam , do them more good to believe he existed , they know who it is .

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Markus 2 on 21.09.14 13:22

2 men down South, I doubt it, one man but not down south imo. Not Gerry.

For someone so involved with this case I would have thought you would have been more clued up than most of us ,but?


Then you also have the scenario if the Smiths are genuine ,they would be questioning why their statement was not released. So what better a time even thought the McCann's don't think it relevant. No, imo the McCann's did not want that e-fit released for a reason..

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.09.14 14:07

Dee Coy wrote:If I'm reading Tony right, he's saying the e-fits have nothing to do with the Smith sighting at all?

Perhaps I am not making myself sufficiently clear. These e-fits IMO have EVERYTHING to do with the Madeleine McCann case - and are purported to come from the Smith family. I don't think, however, that either of these e-fits was created by any member of the Smith family. 

In which case, to whom do they relate? I know you've said they are of photos of 2 men down South, Tony, but to whom in the case are they supposed to be representative of, if not Smithman?  Which unidentified person in the mystery were the witnesses asked to reproduce?

Until I am more certain of the identity of the two men whose photos I think have been used to create these 2 e-fits, I am not going to identify them.

I am prepared, however, to say this.

These e-fits have been drawn up, so we are told, by the Oakley International Team of Kevin Halligen and Henri Exton, who were employed by the McCann Team. IMO neither of these men can be trusted.

Given that Martin Smith on 20 September 2007 said that he was '60% to 80%' certain that the man he claimed to have seen on 3 May was Gerry McCann, it is indeed a remarkable turnaround that the two e-fits said to have been created by him and another member of his family are now being used in an attempt to identify the abductor. No doubt when Brian Kennedy contacted Martin Smith this would have had an influence on Smith.

My information is that Kevin Halligen and/or Henri Exton based their e-fits on two men known personally by one or both of them - but who had nothing to do with events in Praia da Luz.

They are, then, just a couple of handy e-fits which can be used to pretend that they originated from the Smith family. As I suggest they have been by DCI Andy Redwood.

Now I am prepared to make this offer to any geniune researcher on this forum who would like to see the photos I have - and can offer an opinion on the likeness of the efits to the two persons I have in view.  Ideally I would like to hear from anyone who has any degree of expertise or experience in the science or art of facial recognition.

Send me a 'pm'. Please don't be offended if I say no to anyone as I am only willing to share this with people who can demonstrate that they can be trusted.
   
 

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Markus 2 on 21.09.14 14:44


Madeleine McCann: Key witness accuses Portuguese police of not taking his vital prime suspect evidence seriously. Cannot see the whole family making this up, even thought the Mccanns dont believe it. INTERESTING IT IS JUST THIS ONE PICTURE IN THE PAPER

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Re: SMITHMAN 3 - The e-fits - two different people, or the same man?

Post by Markus 2 on 21.09.14 14:54

Send me a 'pm'. Please don't be offended if I say no to anyone as I am only willing to share this with people who can demonstrate that they can be trusted.    I WOULD NOT WANT TO PM YOU TONY CANT SPEAK FOR ANYONE ELSE THOUGH, HOW DO WE KNOW YOU CAN BE TRUSTED.

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