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Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by Okeydokey on 07.09.14 0:33

Dr What wrote:If the Mcs and Tapas lot believed that Maddie had been abducted from the very beginning, why the need to waste time trying to produce a couple of time-lines for the whole evening in order to give to the Police? Surely the only thing that would matter to the Police at that stage was knowing the last time she was seen alive and where and by whom.

It would seem to me that they were being a little bit too clever with those time-lines.Why would the police be interested in who visited other apartments to 'check' on other children.Irrelevant.It would seem that the time-lines were produced to establish the beginnings of an alibi for someone...or all of them.

A little bit too clever.

Even weirder - they were producing the timelines even though Jane Tanner had communicated to the group that she saw the abduction take place...and knew the direction in which the abductor was walking.

What would you do? Sit down and construct a timeline? Or rush out in the direction indicated by Jane's sighting, banging on vehicles, looking in ditches,calling out Madeleine's name*...

*Almost certainly calling out Maddy had they been required to but for some unknown reason the claim is this 3 year old unlike virtually every other 3 year old was resistant to diminutive name forms. I'd be interested to know if anyone else has personal experience of a 3 year old who resists an affectionate diminutive name form. I have never personally come across that before. A 3 year old might resist being called something completely different I would agree - but an affectionate shortened form? I doubt it. It may be a very rare occurrence - in which case we have to assign this to all the other rare occurrences that make up the MMcC case.

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by cbeagle on 07.09.14 1:45

Okeydokey wrote:*Almost certainly calling out Maddy had they been required to but for some unknown reason the claim is  this 3 year old unlike virtually every other 3 year old  was resistant to diminutive name forms. I'd be interested to know if anyone else has personal experience of a 3 year old who resists an affectionate diminutive name form.  I have never personally come across that before. A 3 year old might resist being called something completely different I would agree - but an affectionate shortened form?  I doubt it. It may be a very rare occurrence - in which case we have to assign this to all the other rare occurrences that make up the MMcC case.

FWIW - My son has always resisted diminutive  form of his name, and still does at almost 19.

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by jeanmonroe on 07.09.14 1:50

Okeydokey:

Even weirdier? (is that even a word?)

Gerry McCann personally 'signed' his name , GERALD, on the 'second' handwritten timeline, but hours LATER, when JT supposedly 'told', him for the FIRST time, at 3:00am, 4th May 2007, what she had 'seen' he REELS BACK IN 'SHOCK' UNABLE TO TAKE IN WHAT SHE'S JUST TOLD HIM!

But he's ALREADY, hours BEFORE, written his name on a 'timeline' that INCLUDES her 'sighting'!

and not only that, JT's 'sighting' is also HIGH LIGHTED, on the second handwritten 'timeline', by a 'box/rectangle' surrounding it!

(NOT ''emphasised' on the first handwritten timeline, which GM did NOT put his name on)

'compiled' hours earlier than BEFORE JT, FIRST 'told' GM what she had er, 'seen'

FWIW, i believe the 'high lighting/ emphasising' of JT's 'sees stranger carrying CHILD' on the second 'timeline' was actually 'done' by GM , himself.

Now WHY do you think HE would do THAT?

Rhetorical!  winkwink

Weird, innit?

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by Spandex on 07.09.14 5:36

I strongly believe that the truth always comes out eventually. Here in South Africa our president has been dodging the truth for many years regarding fraud charges but after many court cases spy tapes have been handed over to the opposition. Never give up what you dish out comes back to bite you. Imagine what it must be like for the Macs to live with themselves - many not believing a word that comes out of their mouths, and the worse part is that the twins are growing up and the fear that they must feel for the future must be unbearable all IMO

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by Woofer on 07.09.14 10:43

Does GM always refer to himself as "Gerald" ?

A defence lawyer may say this time line was prepared for the police so it would help them fix the abductor's entry time.
Just playing devi1 advocate here.

Also, those timelines could have been written on any previous day particularly if it was planned from as far back as the Monday or Tuesday.

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by cloak'ndagger on 07.09.14 11:15

Dont Make Me Laff wrote:
WMD wrote:
whatsupdoc wrote:
WMD wrote:
whatsupdoc wrote:I don't think any checking took place on the Thurday evening hence the need to cobble together a timeline or two.The twins may have been looked after by someone else in another app.

I have always thought that Madeleine died at the w/e and the parents had all week to sort out the problems. Cleaning the app. on the Thursday would have left a strong smell. I think that was done on the Monday, a very quiet day it would appear from the blog. The creche register certainly looks confusing.

Hence, the last people to see Madeleine would have been the parents and members of Tapas 7 who tried to save her life followed by a pact of silence.

My theory is better than the McCanns as it has 2 pieces of evidence, namely timelines. Who else has been out, left their young children alone, then come home and written a timeline....just bonkers ehh?
Does that rubbish Amaral's theory or enhance it.

I know G Amaral said she died on the Thursday but unless he knows a lot more than we do, which I'm sure he does,  I think he was being as generous to the McCanns as he could be. He said accident rather than anything else and without a body, I don't know how time of death could have been known.

I'm 100% behind GA and the PJ/GNR  who did as good a job as they were dealt by the McCanns. Fingers crossed he wins the upcoming trial.
Was his book more of a brief summary of what he thought happened rather than a full blown account? don't underestimate GA  I hope he does know more and maybe it is kept back in the hope it will get to trial and anything else known can't be released Not all of the evidence collected by the PJ was released for fear of jeopardising a trial if it should happen. check I can see the OG going one of two ways,they have collected some previously missed piece of evidence and can help bring about a trial or there is not enough evidence to bring a charge of any thing against any one.All IMO. In the words of GA - when the McCann's are no longer protected.................
Amaral does know more and he has said he would add it to his next book.

When asked a direct question as to what he thinks happened to Maddie he has to answer what conclusion the investigation has led him to taking into account witness statements. Now we know that Catriona Baker says she saw Maddie at 5.30pm on May 3rd. Amaral has to accept that Maddie was still alive at that time or else he has to call Catriona Baker a liar.

I am pretty certain that Amaral knows that Baker is a dodgy witness having visited the McCanns at Rothley and having changed her statement and I doubt very much that he believes Maddie died in an accident but the investigation could not prove manslaughter/murder at the time he wrote his book.

Here is an interview Kazlux had with Amaral

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/25MAY9/GONCALO_AMARAL_05_05_2009.htm

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by Guest on 07.09.14 12:29

I've said elsewhere that I believe that Amaral is the misplaced log in the woodpile,he just wouldn't roll over,the McCann's could carry on with what ever it is they wanted,courting publicity living a life of Reilly,but no the man who had the temerity to work out (or at least come close to it) what occurred couldn't be silenced not even with a offer of an out of court solution,to which we know not what draconian rules they would have placed on him.No he was quite willing and happy to have his day in court,he wasn't required to say anything,he didn't need to,for the Mccanns have to prove he harmed them or the investigation,not he had to prove he didn't.

Just hope he wins.

As an aside I understand the courts website is up and running in Lisbon again but no news on the resumption where the Lawyers have their final say.

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by jeanmonroe on 07.09.14 13:46

WMD:

As an aside I understand the courts website is up and running in Lisbon again but no news on the resumption where the Lawyers have their final say.
-----------------------------------------------------

OG's ELITE Maddie Cops will be on tenterhooks then!

Ready to 'deploy', at a moment's notice, to Portugal a few days BEFORE the 'final say'!

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by palm tree on 07.09.14 17:13

Let's keep fighting, aparently Jack the Ripper has been solved using 126 year old DNA with 100% match to a polish man! Amazing IMO

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by PeterMac on 07.09.14 17:36

cloak'ndagger wrote:
When asked a direct question as to what he thinks happened to Maddie he has to answer what conclusion the investigation has led him to taking into account witness statements. Now we know that Catriona Baker says she saw Maddie at 5.30pm on May 3rd. Amaral has to accept that Maddie was still alive at that time or else he has to call Catriona Baker a liar.

And he didn't at that time know that the Last Photo was a forgery, because at that stage none of us did.
He hadn't been given it by the McCanns, it wasn't the camera they handed over, but on the one they didn't,
so he didn't even know of its existence.
And he didn't know that Kate would completely alter her statement about the curtains from Wide open (police statement ) to Tight closed and whooshing
so the lack of any significant gusts of wind would have also been irrelevant.
And he would have had no reason to research the weather conditions for all the different days of the holiday, as we have done, to match that photo with Sunday lunchtime.

But we - and incidentally he - now DO know these things. But none of us, nor her, has any power to do the right thing.
That is down to DCI Redwood and the PJ and the CPS (oops, who mentioned them !)

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by whatsupdoc on 07.09.14 17:52

Catriona Baker says she saw Maddie at 5.30pm on May 3rd but if a substitute had been used since the Sunday, then she would assume she had seen Madeleine all week.

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by comperedna on 07.09.14 18:42

The 'substitute all week' idea doesn't wash with me, because no three going four year old child whose name was NOT Madeleine would answer to it... She would say: 'No I'm Melanie', or whatever. Children of that age cannot be sworn to secrecy, or so I think. I am more prepared to believe Ms Baker was 'mistaken'... and that is hard on Amaral.

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by whatsupdoc on 07.09.14 18:58

comperedna wrote:The 'substitute all week' idea doesn't wash with me, because no three going four year old child whose name was NOT Madeleine would answer to it... She would say: 'No I'm Melanie', or whatever. Children of that age cannot be sworn to secrecy, or so I think. I am more prepared to believe Ms Baker was 'mistaken'... and that is hard on Amaral.

I believe there was a young girl with the name Madelene there that week. If the PJ haven't already made inquiries re the possibility of a sustitute then I think it may prove very helpful. The was also a Mr. Naylor there with his daughter...both people worth investigating.

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by Silverspeed on 08.09.14 0:37

From Chelsea Hoffman on The Crime Scene Media site.                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Home [url=http://www.crimescenemedia.com/search/label/cold case]cold case[/url] Crime [url=http://www.crimescenemedia.com/search/label/madeleine mccann]madeleine mccann[/url] missing news Will Maddie's disappearance ever be solved?

Will Maddie's disappearance ever be solved?


September 6, 2014


Photo credit: Wikimedia Commons
The disappearance of Madeleine McCann remains on the minds of people across the globe, and this article on The Telegraph questions whether or not the truth is near in this case. The article also goes through all of the different avenues that have been investigated by both Portuguese detectives and officials with Scotland Yard. Nonetheless, the case remains unsolved, and it seems that the truth may never be known (or at least, not officially). This post blames the current lack of organization in Portugal on "slowing down the hunt" for Maddie. However, it seems that the officials in Portugal have done the most comprehensive investigation. Their hard work is simply being ignored, and former detective Goncalo Amaral is treated as a liar when he alleges that the parents played a role in the girl's disappearance.

If anything has slowed down the investigation, it's Scotland Yard's refusal to acknowledge the overwhelming evidence against the original suspects in the case. Kate and Gerry McCann were declared suspects in Portugal not long after Maddie vanished. The evidence against Kate and Gerry includes the sniffer dog evidence that they've long scoffed at, as well as Kate's refusal to cooperate with interrogation early in the search, and the total lack of evidence of an abduction. The evidence that exists in this case indicates that Madeleine McCann died in the Algarve rental apartment the night her parents left her alone while they enjoyed "adult time" at a nearby tapas bar. So if SY detectives are so frustrated with the case, why won't they go back to square one

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by cloak'ndagger on 08.09.14 11:41

whatsupdoc wrote:
comperedna wrote:The 'substitute all week' idea doesn't wash with me, because no three going four year old child whose name was NOT Madeleine would answer to it... She would say: 'No I'm Melanie', or whatever. Children of that age cannot be sworn to secrecy, or so I think. I am more prepared to believe Ms Baker was 'mistaken'... and that is hard on Amaral.

I believe there was a young girl with the name Madelene there that week. If the PJ haven't already made inquiries re the possibility of a sustitute then I think it may prove very helpful. The was also a Mr. Naylor there with his daughter...both people worth investigating.
Mr. Naylor's daughter's name is Elizabeht and her best friend is Madeline. Robert Naylor signed his daughter and Madeleine McCann in for 5 days

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by whatsupdoc on 08.09.14 12:40

cloak'ndagger wrote:
whatsupdoc wrote:
comperedna wrote:The 'substitute all week' idea doesn't wash with me, because no three going four year old child whose name was NOT Madeleine would answer to it... She would say: 'No I'm Melanie', or whatever. Children of that age cannot be sworn to secrecy, or so I think. I am more prepared to believe Ms Baker was 'mistaken'... and that is hard on Amaral.

I believe there was a young girl with the name Madelene there that week. If the PJ haven't already made inquiries re the possibility of a sustitute then I think it may prove very helpful. The was also a Mr. Naylor there with his daughter...both people worth investigating.
Mr. Naylor's daughter's name is Elizabeht and her best friend is Madeline. Robert Naylor signed his daughter and Madeleine McCann in for 5 days

Thanks for that, I did remember the name Elizabeth but got the spelling of RN's daughter wrong (e instead of an i). I wonder if the PJ made any sense of the Register?

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by cloak'ndagger on 08.09.14 13:01

whatsupdoc wrote:
cloak'ndagger wrote:
whatsupdoc wrote:
comperedna wrote:The 'substitute all week' idea doesn't wash with me, because no three going four year old child whose name was NOT Madeleine would answer to it... She would say: 'No I'm Melanie', or whatever. Children of that age cannot be sworn to secrecy, or so I think. I am more prepared to believe Ms Baker was 'mistaken'... and that is hard on Amaral.

I believe there was a young girl with the name Madelene there that week. If the PJ haven't already made inquiries re the possibility of a sustitute then I think it may prove very helpful. The was also a Mr. Naylor there with his daughter...both people worth investigating.
Mr. Naylor's daughter's name is Elizabeht and her best friend is Madeline. Robert Naylor signed his daughter and Madeleine McCann in for 5 days

Thanks for that, I did remember the name Elizabeth but got the spelling of RN's daughter wrong (e instead of an i). I wonder if the PJ made any sense of the Register?
Well some of the crèche sheets were withheld so I imagine the PJ must have studied them

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by jeanmonroe on 08.09.14 13:30

WOOHOOOO!

I've CRACKED him wot dunnit, innit?

"The staff at the tapas restaurant had left a note in a staff message book asking that the same table, The message said the group's children were asleep in the apartments, and the staff book was left at the swimming-pool reception area. Madeleine's mother believes that the abductor may have seen the note"
-----------------------------------------------------------------
WORLD EXCLUSIFF!

By IVA INKLING.

Exclusiff Ocean Club 'reception' desk CCTV footage, from May 3rd 2007..



OCEAN CLUB RECEPTION DESK STAFF MEMBER 'BREAKS PACT OF SILENCE' AFTER 7 'TORMENTED' YEARS

"he was looking through our staff book notes, and asked if any of the guests had left their kids, alone, in unlocked apartments" said the, until now, silent, OC, PDL, reception area desk staff member.

"He was well proper creepy, with all them bandages on, even right down to cover his feet"

"Brrrr, he still gives me the right heebie-jeebies, even now, over seven years later"

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by cloak'ndagger on 08.09.14 13:33

jeanmonroe wrote:WOOHOOOO!

I've CRACKED him wot dunnit, innit?

"The staff at the tapas restaurant had left a note in a staff message book asking that the same table, The message said the group's children were asleep in the apartments, and the staff book was left at the swimming-pool reception area. Madeleine's mother believes that the abductor may have seen the note"
-----------------------------------------------------------------
WORLD EXCLUSIFF!

By IVA INKLING.

Exclusiff Ocean Club 'reception' desk CCTV footage, from May 3rd 2007..



OCEAN CLUB RECEPTION DESK STAFF MEMBER 'BREAKS PACT OF SILENCE' AFTER 7 'TORMENTED' YEARS

"he was looking through our staff book notes, and asked if any of the guests had left their kids, alone, in their apartments" said the, until now, silent, OC, PDL, reception area desk staff member.

"He was well proper creepy, with all them bandages on, even right down to cover his feet"

"Brrrr, he still gives me the right heebie-jeebies, even now, over seven years later"
Ha ha ..brilliant laughat

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by Guest on 08.09.14 14:48

Okeydokey wrote:



What would you do? Sit down and construct a timeline? Or rush out in the direction indicated by Jane's sighting, banging on vehicles, looking in ditches,calling out Madeleine's name*...



I think I'd be too busy throttling Oldfield into telling me exactly what he saw at his 9.30pm check. In fact, if I was Gerry and all of this was above board, I don't think I would have relented in my doubts about Oldfield to this day.

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by jeanmonroe on 08.09.14 15:39

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
Okeydokey wrote:



What would you do? Sit down and construct a timeline? Or rush out in the direction indicated by Jane's sighting, banging on vehicles, looking in ditches,calling out Madeleine's name*...



I think I'd be too busy throttling Oldfield into telling me exactly what he saw at his 9.30pm check. In fact, if I was Gerry and all of this was above board, I don't think I would have relented in my doubts about Oldfield to this day.

EXACTLY!

But Gerry still has fun days out with Oldfield doing 'charidy' runs for Missing People, on Clapham Common.

The 'problem' with what did Oldfield 'see' at 9:30 pm would throw a massive spanner into Andy's 'forget everything you think you know til now, we are able to move the timeline, away totally from the T9 members, on til 10:00pm'

DCI Redwood didn't even blink an eye, on national TV, when he totally 're-wrote' ALL previous 'timelines' EVEN the T9's OWN typewritten timeline in which ALL T9 'members' collaborated in drawing up!.

All of the T9's carefully drawn up 'crib sheets' (timelines) DISSED, in an instant, by an elite, experienced, 30 year career cop!

The trouble with DCI Mahogany's re-writing of the 'timeline' is that he is, in effect, saying that ALL the timelines by the T9 were WRONG!

But i'm sure he's far to diplomatic to ever say "ALL of the T9 'lied' with their 'crib sheets' er, timelines.

Perhaps DCI Redwood thinks all the people, in the UK, are as BLIND as he appears to be about this case, and they didn't SEE what he had done by 'shifting' timeline, so McCanns and their 'friends' couldn't have done 'IT'!

Memo to Andy and Grange: I, and many, many thousands, DID 'see'!

A bit like super sleuth McCann PI, Dave 'Grabbit' Edgar's 'CLASSIC' " it DOSEN'T matter WHERE key witnesses WERE standing at the exact time of the crime, at 9:15/20pm,( er, umm, 10.....10:00pm. The 'disappearance' time is 10pm NOW, Andy, isn't it? ) on the night of 3rd May 2007"

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by palm tree on 15.09.14 23:11

Really now, you gotta ask this, IF the mcs are innocent, we'd have known long before now. Parents of a child that had been taken, would've answered all questions put to them, would've jumped at the chance of a reconstruction, would've handed over the true last photo, would've got her medical records for the police, would've given her toothbrush to police and more importantly would've actually looked in the direction tannerman was walking off with possibly their daughter.
To still be in this same position today, they should, even to get a few more people to trust them, do the reconstruction, answer the questions and take a lie detector test. Anything that would let people know that they are innocent, will they? IMO, no. And that's the reason why people just don't believe them, and a lot of other things too.
Could you imagine when the twins become adults, then they tell all, saying something along the lines of, we love our children so much, that we just wanted to raise the twins ourselves, and now they're grown up, we want to do the right thing for Maddie? Some parents might think like this.
IMO

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by NickE on 16.09.14 8:19

whatsupdoc wrote:
comperedna wrote:The 'substitute all week' idea doesn't wash with me, because no three going four year old child whose name was NOT Madeleine would answer to it... She would say: 'No I'm Melanie', or whatever. Children of that age cannot be sworn to secrecy, or so I think. I am more prepared to believe Ms Baker was 'mistaken'... and that is hard on Amaral.

I believe there was a young girl with the name Madelene there that week. If the PJ haven't already made inquiries re the possibility of a sustitute then I think it may prove very helpful. The was also a Mr. Naylor there with his daughter...both people worth investigating.

Madalene Rid*r,daughter to Sarah F*x and Joe Rid*r,best friend with Elizabeth Naylor,even today.
Madalene R was in pdl at the time.

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Is this the same MBM as in the "Last photo"

Post by .Guest.. on 16.09.14 10:21

canada12 wrote:
Evening_All wrote:So in relation to my earlier question : Who were the last people to see her? Who checked the apartment and looked in? Anytime I've checked children at night I at least verify they are still safely tucked up in bed.

If we discount The Last Picture as being counterfeit (at least because the EXIF data for time /date has been altered)...
If we discount The Tennis Photo as being unreliable because it may or may not be Madeleine and there's confusion around when it was taken and by whom...
If we discount the creche records because they don't seem to be reliable...
If we discount the nannies because they may not have been able to positively identify Madeleine on sight...
If we discount all of the Tapas 9 because their claims are unreliable...
If we discount Kate and Gerry because their claims are unreliable...
If we believe that THIS is a true picture of Madeleine, taken in the first day or so of the holiday...



Then the person who took this photo is probably the last person who saw Madeleine alive and can produce proof of it.
IMO this child is very similar to the one purported to be MBM in the "Last photo" It looks very like it was taken in the pool area (tree.wall etc) and there could be one of several explanations for this
1 It really is MBM in 2007 in PDL
2 It is MBM but the previous year. Looks younger than 4 etc
3 The real MBM has been photoshopped into the PDL background
4 A substitute child was deliberately posed in PDL but MBM`s face has been shopped in

There are probably other scenarios but what it does highlight is that TM have made it as difficult as possible for the truth to surface. IMO
BTW off topic but it has just been announced that Shaun Wright has resigned. No connection impiled to this case.

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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?

Post by NickE on 17.09.14 7:01

anon357 wrote:
canada12 wrote:
Evening_All wrote:So in relation to my earlier question : Who were the last people to see her? Who checked the apartment and looked in? Anytime I've checked children at night I at least verify they are still safely tucked up in bed.

If we discount The Last Picture as being counterfeit (at least because the EXIF data for time /date has been altered)...
If we discount The Tennis Photo as being unreliable because it may or may not be Madeleine and there's confusion around when it was taken and by whom...
If we discount the creche records because they don't seem to be reliable...
If we discount the nannies because they may not have been able to positively identify Madeleine on sight...
If we discount all of the Tapas 9 because their claims are unreliable...
If we discount Kate and Gerry because their claims are unreliable...
If we believe that THIS is a true picture of Madeleine, taken in the first day or so of the holiday...



Then the person who took this photo is probably the last person who saw Madeleine alive and can produce proof of it.
IMO this child is very similar to the one purported to be MBM in the "Last photo" It looks very like it was taken in the pool area (tree.wall etc) and there could be one of several explanations for this
1 It really is MBM in 2007 in PDL
2 It is MBM but the previous year. Looks younger than 4 etc
3 The real MBM has been photoshopped into the PDL background
4 A substitute child was deliberately posed in PDL but MBM`s face has been shopped in

There are probably other scenarios but what it does highlight is that TM have made it as difficult as possible for the truth to surface. IMO
BTW off topic but it has just been announced that Shaun Wright has resigned. No connection impiled to this case.

Is it possible to see what kind of camera he/she used for this Photo?
EXIF data?

____________________
When asked if people will ever learn what really happened, Mr Amaral responded: “Yes, we will, when MI5 opens the case files, we will find out".

NickE

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