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***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by PeterMac on 09.02.15 8:24

@Hobs wrote:The problem is he has not made a strong denial, in fact he has made no reliable denial at all.

But since the exact allegation has never been spelled out, surely he is in a difficult position.
To specifically deny the allegation, he would have to refer to the details.
I am not sure how he could deal with that, and clearly his lawyers have not come up with a formula either.

He is left with the Clarence Blithering Idiot Mitchell formula about having explanation for everything the police do have, or do not have.
Which was priceless !

" Whatever they say I did, I didn't !"

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Hobs on 09.02.15 12:22

@PeterMac wrote:
@Hobs wrote:The problem is he has not made a strong denial, in fact he has made no reliable denial at all.

But since the exact allegation has never been spelled out, surely he is in a difficult position.
To specifically deny the allegation, he would have to refer to the details.
I am not sure how he could deal with that, and clearly his lawyers have not come up with a formula either.

He is left with the Clarence Blithering Idiot Mitchell formula about having explanation for everything the police do have, or do not have.
Which was priceless !

" Whatever they say I did, I didn't !"
We may not have the exact details, the accusation though is he abused a 15 year old boy at a christian rally 3 decades ago.
It would allow him to give a strong reliable denial based on theaccusation made.
I did not abuse a boy at a christian rally 3 decades ago

A strong reliable denial is:
First person singular, past tense, event specific.

Any violation of the above such as less than the three parts or additional wording make it non reliable and further questioning required to see why  no reliable denial was made.
This could be guilt regarding something else not related to the topic, guilty knowledge of the crime or guilt.

If he can't make a reliable denial, we can't do it for him.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Guest on 09.02.15 12:31

Hello Nobs, I usually enjoy your comments.

If I understand you correctly, a truthful denial would be:

' I did not have sex with that woman'

Hmmm...

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Hobs on 09.02.15 13:01

@Portia wrote:Hello Nobs, I usually enjoy your comments.

If I understand you correctly, a truthful denial would be:

' I did not have sex with that woman'

Hmmm...
Nope bill clinton issued an unreliable denial.

he broke the rule of three, that woman, Monica Lewinsky. the addition of that woman weakened his denial

If his reply was exactly as you wrote ' I did not have sex with that woman' then he violates the principal of event specific.
Who is 'THAT WOMAN'?

He got around the deception by claiming his definition of sex meant sexual intercourse not oral sex.
A statement analyst would have asked for his definition of sex

Also did he  feel that her giving him oral sex rather than him giving her oral sex meant that she was the dominant one, the one in charge,
He didn't have sex with her, she had sex with him

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by PeterMac on 09.02.15 13:45

(My hazy recollection is that the words Clinton used were "I did not have sexual relations with that woman . . . ", which then allowed him to define what he meant by 'sexual relations', and to argue that being the passive partner in an act was not included in "I did not have . . ." which tended to imply an active part)

But in the CR case, only a few (million) people know the extent of the abuse alleged.
They may think it is of a conventional ( ! ) type or abuse, rather than an extreme perversion - as a random example, obviously - , so has has to be extremely careful not to admit to something the general public do not realise he was being accused of.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Hobs on 09.02.15 14:22

@PeterMac wrote:(My hazy recollection is that the words Clinton used were "I did not have sexual relations with that woman . . . ", which then allowed him to define what he meant by 'sexual relations', and to argue that being the passive partner in an act was not included in "I did not have . . ." which tended to imply an active part)

But in the CR case, only a few (million) people know the extent of the abuse alleged.
They may think it is of a conventional ( ! ) type or abuse, rather than an extreme perversion - as a random example, obviously - , so has has to be extremely careful not to admit to something the general public do not realise he was being accused of.
I recall he used the term sexual relations without specifying at the time what those sexual relations were leaving the public to put their own interpretation on it, (deception by omission). The public would think all types of sexual relations and believe him whilst his definition of sexual relations meant sexual intercourse only.
In his definition of the word he did not have sexual relations.oral sex wasn't part of personal dictionary relating to sexual relations.

A statement analyst would have asked for his definition of sexual relations and based on his responses pinned him down to specifics.

Exactly Peter, He may not have viewed it as sexual abuse but rather cuddling or hugging or tickling minimising the offence plus he wouldn't view it as abuse as perhaps to him abuse would mean physical leaving marks such as from a spanking or beating.
Abuse would imply hurt,pain and if the victim(s) didn't show pain or fear, perhaps due to drugs alcohol or plain grooming and if he didn't beat or hurt the victim it was not abuse.

A paedophile will minimise his crime not only to the world but to himself as well.
It wasn't sexual abuse it was showing their love  to the boy/girl.
It wasn't abuse they never hurt the victim
They will even go so far as to blame the victim claiming the victim seduced him/abused him!

There was one case where a paedophile claimed a young girl had pinned him down and raped him, he being unable to fight her off (he was found guilty)

it will be interesting to see further statements from him and his lawyers.

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Oops!

Post by Guest on 09.02.15 16:09

Sorry, didn't intend to open such a can of worms. 

TOT

nah

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by plebgate on 09.02.15 16:57

@ultimaThule wrote:Well spotted, Hobs. yes

I'm not given to conspiracy theories but it seems to me there's a whiff of deliberateness about South Yorkshire Police's 'blunder'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2944504/Cliff-Richard-confident-police-drop-child-sex-abuse-allegation-adds-extra-date-forthcoming-sell-tour.html

You and I would hazard a guess UT, many others.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by woodforthetrees on 09.02.15 17:24

@plebgate wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:Well spotted, Hobs. yes

I'm not given to conspiracy theories but it seems to me there's a whiff of deliberateness about South Yorkshire Police's 'blunder'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2944504/Cliff-Richard-confident-police-drop-child-sex-abuse-allegation-adds-extra-date-forthcoming-sell-tour.html

You and I would hazard a guess UT, many others.
Agreed. Gagging order against publishing anythign in public about a certain 'Sir' and operation Fairbank, but no such gagging order for the claims in south Yorkshire, hence (IMO) this was a deliberate ploy to bring attention to him and thus get others to come forward to speak to the police.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Doug D on 24.02.15 20:14

BBC & South Yorkshire Police slagged off in Daily Mail this morning yet:
 
Daily Mail coverage of Cliff Richard raid report highly inaccurate, says author
 
Former chief constable Andy Trotter says paper’s claims of South Yorkshire police incompetence and BBC dishonesty are wrong

Guardian - Tuesday 24 February 2015 18.07 GMT

The author of a report on a deal between the BBC and a police force which led to the filming of a raid on Sir Cliff Richard’s home has said the Daily Mail’s coverage of his inquiry was “highly inaccurate”.

Under the deal between the broadcaster and South Yorkshire police, the BBC agreed to delay, by a month, publishing details of an investigation into an allegation that Richard sexually abused a 16-year-old boy in the 1980s. In return, the force tipped off the broadcaster about the timing of the raid on Richard’s Berkshire home, allowing it to broadcast live helicopter footage of the operation in August 2014.

Richard has repeatedly denied any wrongdoing. He had not been interviewed by the police before the raid, which he watched unfold on TV while he was on holiday in Portugal.

The Daily Mail headline on Tuesday said both police and the BBC had been “savaged” by the report, and the article claimed that the inquiry had found police officials to be incompetent and the BBC dishonest.

The author of the report, the former chief constable Andy Trotter, said all of this was wrong, and that the Mail’s coverage was so misleading that he did not recognise his own report from it.

The report did, however, say that the controversial deal “certainly interfered with his [Richard’s] privacy and may well have caused unnecessary distress”.

Trotter, a former media spokesman for Britain’s police chiefs, conducted the review (pdf) for the South Yorkshire police and crime commissioner.

The report says that the South Yorkshire chief constable, David Crompton, could have stepped in to prevent the media agreement. Trotter says he believed the police agreement to the deal was an error of judgment, done to try to protect their investigation into the allegations about the singer.

Trotter told the Guardian: “When I saw the headline I genuinely thought it must refer to someone else’s report. It bore no resemblance to my report and at no time did I say the police were incompetent or the BBC was dishonest. My report clearly does not say that.”

“Neither the police or the BBC are ‘savaged’. I made no comment, whatsoever, about the BBC. That was not part of my remit.”

South Yorkshire police said they entered in to the deal because they feared that crucial evidence would be lost if the BBC reported that the 74-year-old singer was under investigation before the raid took place, as it had threatened. They believed that the BBC’s reporter, Dan Johnson, had been leaked information about the inquiry from Operation Yewtree, the Metropolitan police investigation into child sex abuse by the former BBC DJ Jimmy Savile and others.

But in his review published on Tuesday, Trotter concluded that the BBC was unlikely to have run the story based on a single source without police cooperation.

Johnson was not interviewed by Trotter and has not disclosed his source.

Trotter’s review says it is possible that South Yorkshire police were “conned” by Johnson into revealing more information about the investigation than he already had. He noted, however, that the force’s head of communications, Carrie Goodwin, and the senior investigating officer in the case, Matt Fenwick, were adamant that Johnson knew as much as they did about the investigation when he approached the force a month before the raid.

Trotter’s review said South Yorkshire police had breached police guidance on protecting the identity of those under investigation.
“Bearing in mind that at [the time of the raid] Sir Cliff Richard had not been interviewed, let alone arrested, he should not have been informed of the allegations through the media.

“By cooperating, the force ‘stood the story up’ and absolved the BBC of any risk or responsibility for the story.”

The review called for revised police guidance to advise officers on how they invited journalists on planned operations.
South Yorkshire police have already been heavily criticised for the way they handled the case. The home affairs select committee described the raid as “utterly inept”, but said the BBC was “within its rights to run the story”.

The Trotter review says the handling of the raid has dented the force’s reputation. It says it should have taken external advice, including from the Metropolitan police, before agreeing to cooperate with the BBC.

Trotter concludes: “I came across nothing to suggest that the force was seeking publicity or involved in any improper relationships with the media. However, through a failure to foresee the consequences of their decisions, they put the force in a position which was difficult to defend and which could, and should, have been avoided.”

A South Yorkshire police spokesman said: “While we believe our actions in relation to dealing with the media were within policy and were well intended, they were ultimately flawed and we regret the additional anxiety which was caused to Sir Cliff Richard.”

A BBC spokesman said: “The home affairs committee has already endorsed the way the BBC handled this story. We have nothing further to add.”
 
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/feb/24/daily-mail-coverage-of-cliff-richard-raid-report-highly-inaccurate-author?CMP=share_btn_tw

.............................................

Just as an aside, it is interesting to note that Trotter says:

'I made no comment, whatsoever, about the BBC. That was not part of my remit.'

I can't seem to remember where we have come across remits before, with whole teams operating in this manner (well maybe I can)!

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by ultimaThule on 24.02.15 20:27

Are we to gather from this that the singing vicar is beyond the law reproach?

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by BlueBag on 25.02.15 17:29

Case has been expanded!!!!


Cliff Richard inquiry 'expanded'


Historical sex offence inquiry into Cliff Richard has "increased significantly in size", South Yorkshire Police say

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31630793

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 25.02.15 17:43

Indeed, I feel the lid is about to blow off the abuse pressure cooker - so to speak  yes

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by ultimaThule on 25.02.15 18:14

Does this mean no-one nothing is sacred?

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Gaggzy on 25.02.15 18:20

@ultimaThule wrote:Are we to gather from this that the singing vicar is beyond the law reproach?

As long as he's a Barbadian citizen, he will likely be untouchable, no?

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by noseyparker on 25.02.15 18:38

For Sir Harry Webb clapping

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by ultimaThule on 25.02.15 18:55

@Gaggzy wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:Are we to gather from this that the singing vicar is beyond the law reproach?

As long as he's a Barbadian citizen, he will likely be untouchable, no?

The UK has an extradtion treaty with Barbados therefore 'no' is the answer, Gaggzy.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Gaggzy on 25.02.15 19:44

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Gaggzy wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:Are we to gather from this that the singing vicar is beyond the law reproach?

As long as he's a Barbadian citizen, he will likely be untouchable, no?

The UK has an extradtion treaty with Barbados therefore 'no' is the answer, Gaggzy.  

... oh. I could have sworn that I read somewhere recently that the UK does NOT have an extradition treaty with Barbados.

Do we? Don't we?

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by ChippyM on 25.02.15 20:11

@Gaggzy wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:Are we to gather from this that the singing vicar is beyond the law reproach?

As long as he's a Barbadian citizen, he will likely be untouchable, no?



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/8018513/Sir-Cliff-Richard-Why-Barbados-beats-Britain.html
 

I wonder what happened in 2006 that prompted Cliff to move to Barbados for good and then only ever spend a week at a time here, yes the weather is nice I know....
 I hope Sir Kitty stays around long enough to answer questions on what he was doing visiting the Elm Guesthouse all those years ago. I won't hold my breath though obviously.



"I'm officially a non-resident, although I will always be British and proud of it," says Sir Cliff.
His spokesman Bill Latham, confirms that Sir Cliff is a citizen of Barbados, where, after selling his house in Weybridge, Surrey, in 2006, he now spends most of his time.

Latham tells Mandrake that the singer, who retains a flat in Sunningdale, Berkshire, has not paid tax to the British Government on money he earns outside the country for some years.
"It was more about downsizing his property portfolio than a reaction to any policies of this or the last government."
  Sir Cliff, 69, who will perform at the Royal Albert Hall in October, says he spends no more that "a week here, a week there" in Britain.
He has a flat too in New York and a farmhouse in Portugal, but he says he is thinking of  selling off his Barbados estate - where Tony Blair has stayed - to live instead in a flat overlooking the beach, so he needn't worry about the upkeep of his gardens."

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by ultimaThule on 25.02.15 20:21

@Gaggzy wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@Gaggzy wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:Are we to gather from this that the singing vicar is beyond the law reproach?

As long as he's a Barbadian citizen, he will likely be untouchable, no?

The UK has an extradtion treaty with Barbados therefore 'no' is the answer, Gaggzy.  

... oh. I could have sworn that I read somewhere recently that the UK does NOT have an extradition treaty with Barbados.

Do we? Don't we?

Rest assured the UK does indeed have a treaty with Barbados, Gaggzy, and, despite being a citizen of that island, Harry Webb Knight Bachelor boy remains a British national - not that that fact affects the price of eggs in any way whatsoever. big grin

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Doug D on 25.02.15 20:28

I think it is far from clear, certainly not just a formality and no doubt would end up being argued in Court.
 
From the gov.uk site it seems that we are prepared to extradite people to Barbados, but whether they will reciprocate is not stated.
 
One get-out may be:
 
‘Some countries are not permitted to extradite their own nationals. Though they often have provisions in place that mean that although they will not extradite their own nationals may be prepared to prosecute them on behalf of the UK.’
 
https://www.gov.uk/extradition-processes-and-review
 
Coleman Experience in September 2014 had this (but the example given is 1981):
 
‘Of course, another reason Cliff may have chosen Barbados, is because it’s one of the few places left that doesn’t have an extradition treaty with the UK.’
 
‘In 1981, (Ronnie) Biggs was kidnapped by British ex-soldiers who hoped to collect a reward for returning him to Britain. The kidnappers brought Biggs to Barbados expecting him to be extradited. However the Barbados Supreme Court ruled that such an extradition would be unlawful as the Barbados Parliament had not ratified an extradition treaty with the UK.”
 
https://thecolemanexperience.wordpress.com/2014/09/21/why-is-cliff-richard-running-away-to-barbados/
 
According to the ‘Answers.com’ site there is no extradition treaty with Barbados, but no date for this answer is evident.
 
http://www.answers.com/Q/Which_countries_do_not_have_extradition_treaties_with_the_United_Kingdom
 
but the CPS site has this:
 
C(i): List of Category 2 Territories
Territories are designated as Category 2 territories both for the purposes of Part 2 of the Extradition Act, i.e. export extradition from the United Kingdom, and Part 3, i.e. import extradition to the United Kingdom.
Algeria, Andorra, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Azerbaijan, The Bahamas, Bangladesh, Barbados,
 
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/extradition/annex_c_-_extradition_with_territories_outside_the_european_union_/

I remain to be convinced that he is still a British National.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by ultimaThule on 26.02.15 4:35

It's not unknown for what would appear to be a 'formality' to be argued at length in a Court of Law, Doug, but, while there are some juicy nuggets to be found, there appears to be a considerable amount of pyrite in a couple of your links. .

Having been kidnapped in Rio de Janeiro and taken to the island in 1981, Ronnie Biggs was allowed to return to Brazil after the Barbadian High Court ruled that the Barbados Extradition Act 1979 had not been properly put before the island's parliament, but this is no longer the case https://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/brb/en_brb-ext-law-ext1985.pdf

As you've said, it is clear from Parts 2 and 3 of the UK's Extradition Act 2003 which came into force on 1 January 2005 that Barbados is party to an extradition treaty with the UK https://www.gov.uk/extradition-processes-and-review - as, in fact, do a number of other countries which are erroneously shown by answers.com to have no such arrangement.

It is not true to say that marriage is the only means by which a non-Barbadian can become a citizen of Barbados and, in common with many others who have relocated to the island, it would seem probable that Sir Heath Cliff has availed himself of provision 4 (3) in Part II of the Barbados Citizenship Act (last amended 1982) http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6b56b8.html  

Barbados recognises dual citizenship and it would be surprising for anyone who is 'proud to be British', let alone a Brit who has been knighted by Her Maj, to renounce their UK citizenship where there is no requirement for them to do so unless, of couse, there were certain tax advantages to be taken into consideration.

In any event, having vehemently proclaimed his innocence, I have no doubt that this particular Knight Bachelor will present himself in the UK if required before he embarks on his 75th Birthday Tour in Birmingham on Sept 29 culminating in 6 nights at the Albert Hall - only a few holes tickets left to fill it, folks big grin

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Doug D on 26.02.15 8:24

Purely coincidence or is it planning that this story breaks at exactly the same time that the Saville report comes out?
 
Trying to change what seems to be the general public perception ‘that he is such a nice boy’ to ‘well if Saville can and got away with it for so long, maybe…….’?

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by ultimaThule on 26.02.15 8:56

If you were to put that question to, say, the mystery planner one of Whitehall's mandarins, I suspect the answer would be 'You may say that, I couldn't possibly comment' Doug big grin

With regard to changing public perception, I get the feeling that after today's disclosures it will be 'job done'

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by aquila on 26.02.15 9:47

@Doug D wrote:Purely coincidence or is it planning that this story breaks at exactly the same time that the Saville report comes out?
 
Trying to change what seems to be the general public perception ‘that he is such a nice boy’ to ‘well if Saville can and got away with it for so long, maybe…….’?
The Daily Wail seems to think the Savile stuff is to cover up the immigration figures due to be published about fifteen minutes ago.

I can't be bothered to look it up and post the link. The irony of a newspaper publishing Savile stuff and then saying it's a good day to bury bad news....well.... big grin

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