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Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Guest on Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:13 pm

@NickE wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:After MBM's reported disappearance, members of the extended family referred to her in interviews as Maddie.  It's here on the forum, can't remember where.  MR was known as Madelene.

... because MR was Madelene, then MBM had to become Madeleine after her reported disappearance even though, it would seem, she was usually known as Maddie.  IMO

So we have a girl a year or so younger than MM (nearer to 3 than 4 - taken from the linked thread) which would account for MM's unusually small height of 90cm, who liked to be called Madelene, not Maddie. So Madeleine also had to prefer to be called Madeleine despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Moreover, Madelene was abroad without her parents but as a guest of a family who were acquainted if not friends with the McCanns. This is one coincidence too many, so it must be inferred that Madelene was in PDL for a reason. Which must also suggest the possibility that Madeleine's disappearance had already happened prior to the holiday or was planned to occur during the holiday (the dogs' evidence would suggest the latter).

The alternative - another Madelene, without her family and available for possible use as a substitute with her guardians' apparent blessing, just happening to be there coincidentally with the accidental disappearance of another Madeleine is a step too far for me.

All in my opinion and not stated as fact.

Are we certain Madelene was a guest of the Naylors and her parents weren't in PDL?

Cristobel's riddler is singing in my ear again.

I believe MR was in PdL with her family but not staying at the OC.  I also remember reading here (one of Russian doll's post IIRC) that MR would not attend the creche without her friend, EN.
Still friends 2013. 
Classmates at Larmenier and Sacred Heart Catholic Primary School. 
http://larshrc.lbhf.sch.uk/sites/default/files/file_uploads/newsletter-_issue_117.pdf



I would like to see a photo of MR and compare it with an age progression image of MBM

From Kikoratton's twitter

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Hobs on Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:22 pm

"We never called her anything like that."


Never does not mean did not,

For there to be a that (distancing) there has to be a this.

If she wasn't called anything like that, then they must have called her something like this.

What is the this?


Who is the WE who never called her anything like that when the twins, their familes etc referred to her as Maddie?

Why is it important to kate and gerry that, for public consumption and perception, she was never called Maddie, when gerry himself referred to her as Maddie in his friends reunited page and her grandparentsd aunts and uncles as well as her siblings used the diminutive of Maddie rather than Madeleine?

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Woofer on Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:24 am

@ DeeCoy - "So we have a girl a year or so younger than MM (nearer to 3 than 4 - taken from the linked thread)"

MHER was born in October 2003, so only 5 months younger than MBM. Parents can be found on Ancestry. 

Yes, as NickE showed - a school friend of E. N*****.

People often take their child`s school friend on holiday with them.

But they were too young to be at school in 2007, although I suppose they could have gone to the same nursery school. 

I can`t find any statements for the Naylors - anyone know why?

Where did the Naylors live and what was the wife`s name - anyone know?

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by NickE on Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:56 am

@Woofer wrote:@ DeeCoy - "So we have a girl a year or so younger than MM (nearer to 3 than 4 - taken from the linked thread)"

MHER was born in October 2003, so only 5 months younger than MBM. Parents can be found on Ancestry. 

Yes, as NickE showed - a school friend of E. N*****.

People often take their child`s school friend on holiday with them.

But they were too young to be at school in 2007, although I suppose they could have gone to the same nursery school. 

I can`t find any statements for the Naylors - anyone know why?

Where did the Naylors live and what was the wife`s name - anyone know?
No statements for the Naylor´s and no statements for the Edmonds.....hmmm



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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Guest on Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:52 am

@NickE wrote:
@Woofer wrote:@ DeeCoy - "So we have a girl a year or so younger than MM (nearer to 3 than 4 - taken from the linked thread)"

MHER was born in October 2003, so only 5 months younger than MBM. Parents can be found on Ancestry. 

Yes, as NickE showed - a school friend of E. N*****.

People often take their child`s school friend on holiday with them.

But they were too young to be at school in 2007, although I suppose they could have gone to the same nursery school. 

I can`t find any statements for the Naylors - anyone know why?

Where did the Naylors live and what was the wife`s name - anyone know?
No statements for the Naylor´s and no statements for the Edmonds.....hmmm



Robert Naylor's wife is called Anne (Irish pronunciation).

Last night I read DP & FP's rogs - the part where they discussed sailing activities - and there was no mention of RN, although they alluded to another person.  Did they forget his name, or were they reluctant to name him?

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Woofer on Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:47 am

Thank you LIR.  Found her - spelt Ainne.

They live near the Riders in west London.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by jeanmonroe on Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:50 am

Ladyinred wrote:

Last night I read DP & FP's rogs - the part where they discussed sailing activities - and there was no mention of RN, although they alluded to another person.  Did they forget his name, or were they reluctant to name him?

Or were they RELUCTANT to name him?

PC 1485 "Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth'' (about Madeleine's 'disappearance')

DAVID PAYNE reply "Err the, there are a few things but I don't think this is the right forum for bringing those up.'

PC 1485....."Okay...

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by HelenMeg on Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:54 am

I believeit is the Mark WARNER guests who are particularly of relevance on this holiday.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by j.rob on Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:14 pm

@Research_Reader wrote:
@Praiaaa wrote:
@Woofer wrote:In Fiona Payne`s statement, she said it was weird that KM kept checking the twins to see if they were still breathing. 

Was she grassing on her friend ?  Why else would FP bring attention to the twins being comatose?

double dose -very interesting, would explain the complicity of the T7


YES! Exactly! 

Explains one of the most potentially perplexing aspects of the case in a very simple fashion.

And Matt, in police statements and also in the 'Madeleine was Here' reconstruction about the 'final check at 9.30pm states that he looked into the apartment and saw the twins chests moving. In other words he saw the twins breathing. 

He, conveniently perhaps, does not take a step inside the apartment and therefore is unable to see Madeleine. And unable to see Madeleine breathing as well, perhaps?

If Madeleine did have an adverse reaction to a drug or was overdosed, then she would presumably have required emergency medical treatment. So IF this was something to do with what happened to Madeleine that week, then the negligence of having left the children without a babysitter is then compounded by the negligence of not seeking emergency medical treatment.

And there is no escaping the FACT that the twins, on Thursday evening, were to all extents and purposes in a coma. Kate in her book notes how it was odd that they did not wake and also that they are lying in a strange position. She even states that she checks for signs of life! The police think it is odd that the twins did not wake up. And presumably there would be other witnesses to this?

And Kate, in her book and also to police (at a later date of course so that it is too late) states that she believes that the twins and Madeleine may have been drugged on BOTH Wednesday evening and Thursday evening.

And yet despite these FACTS neither Kate, nor Gerry nor any of their medically qualified friends insist on proper medical examination of the twins!

Astonishing. Especially given that Fiona Payne is an anesthetist. 

For what it is worth, if you do an internet search on accidental overdosing of sedatives in children, you will find that there are reports which have followed cases. And even with some pretty high overdoses, the children recovered after hospital treatment.

I had always suspected that this case might have something to do with medical negligence, among other things. Then lengths that some professionals, hospital trusts, our health authorities will go to in order to cover up medically-induced illness or medical mishaps is quite astonishing.

Even faking an abduction it would seem!

Although I do believe this is only part of the story, albeit a very important part of it. 

All IMO only.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by j.rob on Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:37 pm

@Carrry On Doctor wrote:I really go back and forth on when an event occurred, but perhaps the circumstances of an event can help identify when it may have occurred.


Dr Martin Roberts provides the revealing analysis of the following statements.....

In GM's claim......"And if she died, while we were in the apartment, or fell injured, why would we cover that up?" suggests that MBM did not sustain an accidental injury (otherwise they would have reported it).

Also,........"What happened is not due to our leaving the children asleep. I know it happened under other circumstances." so if they weren't leaving their children asleep, then they were there.

So, in the words of GM.....it was not an accident....and they were there, or had knowledge of it happening.

(Again, above is thanks to Dr Roberts).

It is possibly significant that it is Gerry saying these words and not Kate. Did Kate strike MBM causing her to die ?

MBM was clearly a very intelligent and challenging child - a handful for any parent. Has some event tipped Kate over the edge ?

When were tensions running high ?

The Quiz night was Tuesday, but there was also one on Sunday.

For consideration.

IMO.

If the McCann group went to the Quiz night on Sunday, then perhaps Gerry was paying a little too much attention to the comely aerobics instructor who organized the quiz nights? I imagine it would have been a boozy, fairly ribald evening with a lot of banter and teasing. Perhaps Kate had been left with the bath-time, bed-time routine, which, with three children under four in a strange place and out of their normal routine, would presumably have been extra-stressful. Of interest, perhaps, there is no mention whatsoever of a quiz night in Kate's book.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by PeterMac on Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:20 pm

@j.rob wrote:
And Matt, in police statements and also in the 'Madeleine was Here' reconstruction about the 'final check at 9.30pm states that he looked into the apartment and saw the twins chests moving. In other words he saw the twins breathing. 
.
But as a medic he would know this

The Royal College of Nursing is quite clear about this.
In “Standards for assessing, measuring and monitoring vital signs in infants, children and young people - RCN guidance for children’s nurses and nurses working with children and young people”

they say, very simply
Infants and children less than six to seven years of
age are predominantly abdominal breathers
therefore, abdominal movements should be counted.


Given that the twins were in the high sided close mesh travel cots - allegedly - and end on towards the door
we can say with certainty that he is lying.


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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by joyce1938 on Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:51 pm

Also didn't kate say that the twins were sleeping on front laying on knees bottom up in air ,or words to that effect ,so if so no one saw breathing from those babies in semi darkness

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Dr What on Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:53 pm

Quite.

It just seems to many people that the ridiculous and contradictory statements given by some of this group of people are simply lies.One does not have to be trained as an investigator to come to that conclusion.
Why is it then that the very best of SY brains continue to tip-toe around what is so apparent?

Are they just stupid? Have they been told to back-off the T9? Whilst the statements cry out for a robust examination into the people who made them, why has this not happened? Some might say, that it has happened and we simply don't know.But it does not take years and years to determine that some people should be charged with a variety of offences, including perverting justice, abandonment of minors and neglect.

We don't know what happened to Maddie, but we do know certain facts surrounding the case.Let's start with them.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by jeanmonroe on Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:33 pm

@Dr What wrote:Quite.

It just seems to many people that the ridiculous and contradictory statements given by some of this group of people are simply lies.One does not have to be trained as an investigator to come to that conclusion.
Why is it then that the very best of SY brains continue to tip-toe around what is so apparent?

Are they just stupid? Have they been told to back-off the T9? Whilst the statements cry out for a robust examination into the people who made them, why has this not happened? Some might say, that it has happened and we simply don't know.But it does not take years and years to determine that some people should be charged with a variety of offences, including perverting justice, abandonment of minors and neglect.

We don't know what happened to Maddie, but we do know certain facts surrounding the case.Let's start with them.

Are they just stupid? Have they been told to back-off the T9? Whilst the statements cry out for a robust examination into the people who made them, why has this not happened?
---------------------------------------------------------------
READ THIS!

17th JULY 2014.

Interviewer "What's your sense?"

DCI Driscoll: "My sense was i couldn't work certain things out, there were certain incidents, there were certain inquiries, which didn't appear to be progressed, there were certain, um, PARTS of 'the investigation' THAT REALLY DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME AT ALL, but i never investigated whether that was corruption or is it incompetent"

Interviewer: "But what does corruption look like?"

DCI Driscoll: "Question i've asked myself many times, what is corruption, i mean is corruption going behind a pub somewhere and getting an envelope full of 50 quid notes and thats corruption, or is corruption that you don't go down a certain path, you don't follow a certain inquiry, and therefore YOU MAKE SOMEONE VERY HAPPY THAT YOU HAVEN'T FOLLOWED THAT INQUIRY and therefore your next promotion is easier for you?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
SO,
In answer to your:
Are they just stupid? Have they been told to back-off the T9? Whilst the statements cry out for a robust examination into the people who made them, why has this not happened?
-------------------------

I think DCI Driscoll has 'probably' given you possible 'answers' to your 'questions'.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Dr What on Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:45 pm

With respect, the word 'probably' could be applied to a variety of scenarios.All as valid as the next one.

So, it 'probably' doesn't answer my question.

I was not looking for any answer, because no-one on here knows the answer.I think I was merely voicing my own realisation that I am very close to totally disrespect for our wonderful Police Force.This case has joined a rather lengthy list of cases that are becoming infamous.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Monty Heck on Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:57 pm

@Dr What wrote:Quite.

It just seems to many people that the ridiculous and contradictory statements given by some of this group of people are simply lies.One does not have to be trained as an investigator to come to that conclusion.
Why is it then that the very best of SY brains continue to tip-toe around what is so apparent?

Are they just stupid? Have they been told to back-off the T9? Whilst the statements cry out for a robust examination into the people who made them, why has this not happened? Some might say, that it has happened and we simply don't know.But it does not take years and years to determine that some people should be charged with a variety of offences, including perverting justice, abandonment of minors and neglect.

We don't know what happened to Maddie, but we do know certain facts surrounding the case.Let's start with them.
Your words in bold (mine) sum the situation up succinctlly.  The statements are indeed crying out for a robust examination, but they and the already known facts surrounding the case are being ignored by SY and have been from the outset.  Imagine what would have happened if, turning this around, foreigners had holidayed in the UK, lost a child who had been left alone in unsecured premises and claimed it was an abduction with no evidence and without considering any other possibility.  Then behaved the way the T9 did and gave statements along similar lines to theirs, would SY be saying, several years down the line "we are beginning from zero as if the previous joint UK/Portuguese investigation had never happened" (or words to that effect)?  Throw in other odd behaviours such as starting a fund for questionable purposes, refusing to answer police questions, dismissing sniffer dog evidence, the PJ and LP, insisting without a shred of evidence their child is alive and findable, and suing anyone says otherwise.  The clamour to have such people rigorously investigated would have been deafening.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by espeland on Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:40 pm

I suppose it depends if the term '(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)' in the Operation Grange remit means that OG are to investigate only an abduction or whether the remit has changed now that they haven't identified an abductor. I'm not going to ask, but you can if you wish  yes

One must assume if a whitewash is planned it is to protect a very senior person, presumably from what we know of the case a Prime Minister. Somehow I don't see a Conservative government being too concerned to protect a Labour person however - particularly as the General Election is so close.

There are many instances of malpractice, as you note. But they are surfacing now, albeit years late. I would hope that current SY officers realise the importance of not creating another.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by j.rob on Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:19 pm

@jeanmonroe wrote:
@Dr What wrote:Quite.

It just seems to many people that the ridiculous and contradictory statements given by some of this group of people are simply lies.One does not have to be trained as an investigator to come to that conclusion.
Why is it then that the very best of SY brains continue to tip-toe around what is so apparent?

Are they just stupid? Have they been told to back-off the T9? Whilst the statements cry out for a robust examination into the people who made them, why has this not happened? Some might say, that it has happened and we simply don't know.But it does not take years and years to determine that some people should be charged with a variety of offences, including perverting justice, abandonment of minors and neglect.

We don't know what happened to Maddie, but we do know certain facts surrounding the case.Let's start with them.

Are they just stupid? Have they been told to back-off the T9? Whilst the statements cry out for a robust examination into the people who made them, why has this not happened?
---------------------------------------------------------------
READ THIS!

17th JULY 2014.

Interviewer "What's your sense?"

DCI Driscoll: "My sense was i couldn't work certain things out, there were certain incidents, there were certain inquiries, which didn't appear to be progressed, there were certain, um, PARTS of 'the investigation' THAT REALLY DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME AT ALL, but i never investigated whether that was corruption or is it incompetent"

Interviewer: "But what does corruption look like?"

DCI Driscoll: "Question i've asked myself many times, what is corruption, i mean is corruption going behind a pub somewhere and getting an envelope full of 50 quid notes and thats corruption, or is corruption that you don't go down a certain path, you don't follow a certain inquiry, and therefore YOU MAKE SOMEONE VERY HAPPY THAT YOU HAVEN'T FOLLOWED THAT INQUIRY and therefore your next promotion is easier for you?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
SO,
In answer to your:
Are they just stupid? Have they been told to back-off the T9? Whilst the statements cry out for a robust examination into the people who made them, why has this not happened?
-------------------------

I think DCI Driscoll has 'probably' given you possible 'answers' to your 'questions'.
"You don't follow a certain inquiry, and therefore YOU MAKE SOMEONE VERY HAPPY THAT YOU HAVEN'T FOLLOWED THAT INQUIRY and therefore your next promotion is easier for you."

Yes - I think that probably answers quite a few questions. At least as far as I am concerned. Thanks, JM.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by missmar1 on Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:54 pm

As another poster stated recently - sorry cant remember their name,   the oddities in this case are so obvious imo.   

One of these "oddities" is the Mccann's expect to be believed when they claimed they felt it was safe when they left their children in the unlocked apartment at night ( If they did ) while they were having drinks and eating with friends   -  yet they did not feel  "safe" to leave the same apartment unlocked during the daytime hours when they were all out  ?

So, they felt it was safe at night but not during the day ?   No valuables were taken that night they say.   So they claim they left their valuables in the unlocked apartment at night along with their 3 children  -  but, during the day, they locked the apartment when they were all out ?  Is that because they didn't feel safe leaving the valuables alone without the children being there ?   It certainly doesn't make any sense to me - all my opinion only.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by j.rob on Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:09 am

@jeanmonroe wrote:
@Dr What wrote:Quite.

It just seems to many people that the ridiculous and contradictory statements given by some of this group of people are simply lies.One does not have to be trained as an investigator to come to that conclusion.
Why is it then that the very best of SY brains continue to tip-toe around what is so apparent?

Are they just stupid? Have they been told to back-off the T9? Whilst the statements cry out for a robust examination into the people who made them, why has this not happened? Some might say, that it has happened and we simply don't know.But it does not take years and years to determine that some people should be charged with a variety of offences, including perverting justice, abandonment of minors and neglect.

We don't know what happened to Maddie, but we do know certain facts surrounding the case.Let's start with them.

Are they just stupid? Have they been told to back-off the T9? Whilst the statements cry out for a robust examination into the people who made them, why has this not happened?
---------------------------------------------------------------
READ THIS!

17th JULY 2014.

Interviewer "What's your sense?"

DCI Driscoll: "My sense was i couldn't work certain things out, there were certain incidents, there were certain inquiries, which didn't appear to be progressed, there were certain, um, PARTS of 'the investigation' THAT REALLY DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME AT ALL, but i never investigated whether that was corruption or is it incompetent"

Interviewer: "But what does corruption look like?"

DCI Driscoll: "Question i've asked myself many times, what is corruption, i mean is corruption going behind a pub somewhere and getting an envelope full of 50 quid notes and thats corruption, or is corruption that you don't go down a certain path, you don't follow a certain inquiry, and therefore YOU MAKE SOMEONE VERY HAPPY THAT YOU HAVEN'T FOLLOWED THAT INQUIRY and therefore your next promotion is easier for you?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
SO,
In answer to your:
Are they just stupid? Have they been told to back-off the T9? Whilst the statements cry out for a robust examination into the people who made them, why has this not happened?
-------------------------

I think DCI Driscoll has 'probably' given you possible 'answers' to your 'questions'.

clapping clapping

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by j.rob on Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:02 am

@Research_Reader wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
"What happened is not due to our leaving the children asleep. I know it happened under other circumstances." Gerry McCann

Surely that must be a freudian slip!  

The children were asleep when the supposed abduction took place, that is their official version.
What other circumstances he knew it happened under that he did not tell the Police?


That is a very odd pair of sentences isn't it?

Why did Kate get so agitated in that early TV  interview about the incident where Madeleine allegedly woke up on Wednesday night along with Sean and cried? And so asked her parents: "Why didn't you come when Sean and I woke up?" As outlined in Kate's book on page 62.

Why has Kate made such a big deal out of this? I know it is allegedly to plant the seed that the random mystery abductor may have tried to carry out the abduction the night before.....but......what is the real story here I wonder?

Kate often comes up with something that is not that far from what really happened that week. But spins it. So Madeleine waking up and Madeleine crying are significant, imo.

In the interview (the clip is on the forum somewhere, I will try to find it) Kate becomes visibly very agitated over the subject of Madeleine waking up. Her facial expressions and body language are very revealing. Kate repeats I think three times, with increasing agitation: 'What do you mean you woke up?' 

Of note Gerry looks on at Kate's agitation with a most perplexing expression. Not contrite or upset or 'sharing her pain'. More an expression which appears to signify a kind of : 'Oh well. What can you do?' attitude. With possibly a touch of a suppressed schoolboy smirk, imo.

In subsequent interviews (even one the very next day), Kate very noticeably tones down any emotional reaction to this. (Even to the extent of the curled lip and the shrug of the shoulders as demonstrated in a later TV interview. This tells me that this indent is highly important - and that she must control her body language to the extent of completely misrepresenting it's importance, imo.)

Then Kate in that early interview castigates herself for not having got the full story out of Madeleine - to find out why she woke up and what Madeleine meant. Even to the extent of simulating holding Madeleine by the shoulders and shaking her. The suggestion being that shaking Madeleine quite firmly by the shoulders might have revealed the information about what had happened to wake Madeleine up.

(Somewhat alarming, imo, that Kate should consider that garnering information about what had woken up and upset Madeleine to the extent that Madeleine would  remembered it the next day would be achieved by fairly forceably shaking Madeleine by the shoulders. Is this how a caring parent approaches a potentially very sensitive and emotive situation? An incident whereby a child might have become highly distressed - despite the parents' claims - and where a very softly-softly approach would most definitely be needed to find out what had happened.)

Both Kate and Gerry noticeably play down the impact that this 'waking up and crying' incident had on Madeleine. It is interesting that they allege Sean woke up too and cried. Which may or may not be true. But I wonder why this was included? Is it to be deceptive? Was Sean not even in the apartment when Madeleine woke up and cried? But they wanted to make it appear that he was? Or was Sean  in the apartment but sedated, perhaps? So he couldn't have woken up? Hence the spin.

Both Kate and Gerry allege that  Madeleine's crying incident  was no more than a passing remark. "She didn't seem to be at all anxious or upset. .....If something had happened to make her cry, it is pretty unlikely that she wouldn't tell us about it, assuming she remembered what it was."

Well, given the approach that you think might have been effective in terms of finding out what happened, Kate, I would suggest that Madeleine was either unable, unwilling or too scared to tell you what had upset her so much. Or you didn't want to hear. 

In later media interviews Kate shrugged off this crying incident with a contemptuous curl of the lip and a shrug of the shoulders saying something like 'she just moved on'. What a dramatically different reaction from that early TV interview! 

Amazing what a little coaching in terms of body language for media interviews can do. In order to influence public perception. (Think the film 'Gone Girl' perhaps?)

Sadly for the pair but happily for the truth-seekers, neither Kate or Gerry would have been likely to gain places at RADA. Maybe Rothley pantomime players?

Hmmmm.........

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by worriedmum on Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:46 pm

'What do you mean you woke up?'


as opposed to

' What woke you up?'


Subtly different questions and a different emphasis on time-scale IMO

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by NickE on Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:47 pm

@j.rob wrote:
@Research_Reader wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
"What happened is not due to our leaving the children asleep. I know it happened under other circumstances." Gerry McCann

Surely that must be a freudian slip!  

The children were asleep when the supposed abduction took place, that is their official version.
What other circumstances he knew it happened under that he did not tell the Police?


That is a very odd pair of sentences isn't it?

Why did Kate get so agitated in that early TV  interview about the incident where Madeleine allegedly woke up on Wednesday night along with Sean and cried? And so asked her parents: "Why didn't you come when Sean and I woke up?" As outlined in Kate's book on page 62.

Why has Kate made such a big deal out of this?
I know it is allegedly to plant the seed that the random mystery abductor may have tried to carry out the abduction the night before.....but......what is the real story here I wonder?

Kate often comes up with something that is not that far from what really happened that week. But spins it. So Madeleine waking up and Madeleine crying are significant, imo.

In the interview (the clip is on the forum somewhere, I will try to find it) Kate becomes visibly very agitated over the subject of Madeleine waking up. Her facial expressions and body language are very revealing. Kate repeats I think three times, with increasing agitation: 'What do you mean you woke up?' 

Of note Gerry looks on at Kate's agitation with a most perplexing expression. Not contrite or upset or 'sharing her pain'. More an expression which appears to signify a kind of : 'Oh well. What can you do?' attitude. With possibly a touch of a suppressed schoolboy smirk, imo.

In subsequent interviews (even one the very next day), Kate very noticeably tones down any emotional reaction to this. (Even to the extent of the curled lip and the shrug of the shoulders as demonstrated in a later TV interview. This tells me that this indent is highly important - and that she must control her body language to the extent of completely misrepresenting it's importance, imo.)

Then Kate in that early interview castigates herself for not having got the full story out of Madeleine - to find out why she woke up and what Madeleine meant. Even to the extent of simulating holding Madeleine by the shoulders and shaking her. The suggestion being that shaking Madeleine quite firmly by the shoulders might have revealed the information about what had happened to wake Madeleine up.

(Somewhat alarming, imo, that Kate should consider that garnering information about what had woken up and upset Madeleine to the extent that Madeleine would  remembered it the next day would be achieved by fairly forceably shaking Madeleine by the shoulders. Is this how a caring parent approaches a potentially very sensitive and emotive situation? An incident whereby a child might have become highly distressed - despite the parents' claims - and where a very softly-softly approach would most definitely be needed to find out what had happened.)

Both Kate and Gerry noticeably play down the impact that this 'waking up and crying' incident had on Madeleine. It is interesting that they allege Sean woke up too and cried. Which may or may not be true. But I wonder why this was included? Is it to be deceptive? Was Sean not even in the apartment when Madeleine woke up and cried? But they wanted to make it appear that he was? Or was Sean  in the apartment but sedated, perhaps? So he couldn't have woken up? Hence the spin.

Both Kate and Gerry allege that  Madeleine's crying incident  was no more than a passing remark. "She didn't seem to be at all anxious or upset. .....If something had happened to make her cry, it is pretty unlikely that she wouldn't tell us about it, assuming she remembered what it was."

Well, given the approach that you think might have been effective in terms of finding out what happened, Kate, I would suggest that Madeleine was either unable, unwilling or too scared to tell you what had upset her so much. Or you didn't want to hear. 

In later media interviews Kate shrugged off this crying incident with a contemptuous curl of the lip and a shrug of the shoulders saying something like 'she just moved on'. What a dramatically different reaction from that early TV interview! 

Amazing what a little coaching in terms of body language for media interviews can do. In order to influence public perception. (Think the film 'Gone Girl' perhaps?)

Sadly for the pair but happily for the truth-seekers, neither Kate or Gerry would have been likely to gain places at RADA. Maybe Rothley pantomime players?

Hmmmm.........
I think the reason was that the public would believe that Madeleine was alive that night/morning.
That's what I think.

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When asked if people will ever learn what really happened, Mr Amaral responded: “Yes, we will, when MI5 opens the case files, we will find out".

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by PeterMac on Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:53 pm

@NickE wrote:
I think the reason was that the public would believe that Madeleine was alive that night/morning.
That's what I think.
Exactly.
It is, once again, over doing it. Too much information
And then roping one of the Tapas group to re-tell the story - so it MUST be true
The same with all the histrionics about the time on the Last Photo, when they wanted us to look at the date. On a photo they did not release (aka kept hidden ) for three WEEKS !
Without all this stuff there is no proof that Madeleine was alive and well at any time on 3rd.
And lots of circumstantial evidence that she wasn't !

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by NickE on Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:57 pm

@PeterMac wrote:
@NickE wrote:
I think the reason was that the public would believe that Madeleine was alive that night/morning.
That's what I think.
Exactly.
It is, once again, over doing it.  Too much information
And then roping one of the Tapas group to re-tell the story - so it MUST be true
The same with all the histrionics about the time on the Last Photo, when they wanted us to look at the date.  On a photo they did not release (aka kept hidden ) for three WEEKS !
Without all this stuff there is no proof that Madeleine was alive and well at any time on 3rd.
And lots of circumstantial evidence that she wasn't !
..and Thursday,May 3rd was The BEST day on their holiday....and She WAS so happy....they looked like angels....unt zu weiter
Bad actors!

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