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Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Research_Reader on 06.08.14 9:46

The mind of St Katherine clearly moves in mysterious ways!

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by NickE on 06.08.14 9:47

@aiyoyo wrote:
nikeE wrote:"Kiko" have been in Contact with Robert Naylor,who admitted that the McCann's took Elizabeth to the Creche for 5 days,and what about Elizabeth's friend Madalene,who took her to the Creche?

Hang on a wait!  That is new to me, first time I heard that.
On the basis of that info, if Mccanns helped RN take their daughter to the creche for 5 days in a row with the agenda to sign Elizabeth in and at the same time made false entries for Madeleine, then not necessary RN knew about their agenda or was complicit in their scheme.

and what about Elizabeth's friend Madalene,who took her to the Creche?

This bit I don't understand?  Who took who to the creche?  
Who is Elizabeth and who is Madalene referred to here?

Elizabeth's friend Madalene Ri*er travelled to pdl and OC with the Naylor.
Madalene's parents was not with them on this trip.
GM took E.N the creche and M.R's parents was not there.
I Think GM took E.N and M.R to creche.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Justformaddie on 06.08.14 9:52

@NickE wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
nikeE wrote:"Kiko" have been in Contact with Robert Naylor,who admitted that the McCann's took Elizabeth to the Creche for 5 days,and what about Elizabeth's friend Madalene,who took her to the Creche?

Hang on a wait!  That is new to me, first time I heard that.
On the basis of that info, if Mccanns helped RN take their daughter to the creche for 5 days in a row with the agenda to sign Elizabeth in and at the same time made false entries for Madeleine, then not necessary RN knew about their agenda or was complicit in their scheme.

and what about Elizabeth's friend Madalene,who took her to the Creche?

This bit I don't understand?  Who took who to the creche?  
Who is Elizabeth and who is Madalene referred to here?

Elizabeth's friend Madalene Ri*er travelled to pdl and OC with the Naylor.
Madalene's parents was not with them on this trip.
Ohh, very risky, if true, I would not be happy at all if I was Madalenes parents. A step too far IMO
Come to think about it, who would let their 3/4yr old go to portugal with a friend? I know I wouldn't .

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by BlueBag on 06.08.14 12:23

@aiyoyo wrote:
@NickE wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Tuesday night is the key.

What happened Tuesday night?

Gerry slipped up on TV and said Kate slept in the kids room on Tuesday night - "when Amelie was crying".

All the out of normal behaviour started Tuesday night.. Kate's flurry of phone activity, child crying for 75 minutes, Kate sleeping in a different room.

 agree Focus should be at Tuesday night.


But they kept with the normal group routine activity on Wednesday, no deviation from norm.
Says who?

Wednesday night is the key.
No, tuesday for the reasons already stated.

Change of routine happened on Thursday.
No, according to Gerry, Kate slept in the room on Tuesday. "Unprecedented.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by aiyoyo on 06.08.14 14:41

@BlueBag wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@NickE wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Tuesday night is the key.

What happened Tuesday night?

Gerry slipped up on TV and said Kate slept in the kids room on Tuesday night - "when Amelie was crying".

All the out of normal behaviour started Tuesday night.. Kate's flurry of phone activity, child crying for 75 minutes, Kate sleeping in a different room.

 agree Focus should be at Tuesday night.


But they kept with the normal group routine activity on Wednesday, no deviation from norm.
Says who?

Wednesday night is the key.
No, tuesday for the reasons already stated.

Change of routine happened on Thursday.
No, according to Gerry, Kate slept in the room on Tuesday. "Unprecedented.

And, the body? What did they do with the body meanwhile?

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by BlueBag on 06.08.14 14:53

@aiyoyo wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@NickE wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Tuesday night is the key.

What happened Tuesday night?

Gerry slipped up on TV and said Kate slept in the kids room on Tuesday night - "when Amelie was crying".

All the out of normal behaviour started Tuesday night.. Kate's flurry of phone activity, child crying for 75 minutes, Kate sleeping in a different room.

 agree Focus should be at Tuesday night.


But they kept with the normal group routine activity on Wednesday, no deviation from norm.
Says who?

Wednesday night is the key.
No, tuesday for the reasons already stated.

Change of routine happened on Thursday.
No, according to Gerry, Kate slept in the room on Tuesday. "Unprecedented.

And, the body?  What did they do with the body meanwhile?

What was done with the body under any scenario?

Maybe Madeleine didn't die Tuesday but the process started, over-sedation?

Doesn't matter.. the out of normal behaviour starts Tuesday night.

And any Police investigation will tell you "it was the first time..." is a flag.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by aiyoyo on 06.08.14 14:57

@Justformaddie wrote:
@NickE wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
nikeE wrote:"Kiko" have been in Contact with Robert Naylor,who admitted that the McCann's took Elizabeth to the Creche for 5 days,and what about Elizabeth's friend Madalene,who took her to the Creche?

Hang on a wait!  That is new to me, first time I heard that.
On the basis of that info, if Mccanns helped RN take their daughter to the creche for 5 days in a row with the agenda to sign Elizabeth in and at the same time made false entries for Madeleine, then not necessary RN knew about their agenda or was complicit in their scheme.

and what about Elizabeth's friend Madalene,who took her to the Creche?

This bit I don't understand?  Who took who to the creche?  
Who is Elizabeth and who is Madalene referred to here?

Elizabeth's friend Madalene Ri*er travelled to pdl and OC with the Naylor.
Madalene's parents was not with them on this trip.

Ohh, very risky, if true, I would not be happy at all if I was Madalenes parents. A step too far IMO
Come to think about it, who would let their 3/4yr old go to portugal with a friend? I know I wouldn't .

Oh Wow!  Let me get this right.  

So, the Naylors allowed the Mcs to take their daughter Elizabeth and presumably also her little friend Madelene (whose parents did not go to the PDL but entrusted her to the Naylors)  to the creche 5 days consecutively?  
Why would the Naylors want to do that?   Why would they allow  Kate or Gerry to take the pair of girls to the creche daily?
 Could they not get out of bed in time?  What about afternoon session creche?  Surely no one spends all their time sleeping on holiday?

This is head spinning revelation if true.
Obviously that opens up the possibility of a substitute child, same name as Madeleine, except for slight variation in spelling, to be signed in as Madeleine.  Provided (1) the creche staff were not aware of the spare child Naylors brought along also named Madelene ; and (2) provided the PJ hadn't sussed this out thus not looked at this angle.

This is really mind boggling.  I need to go lie down in a dark room.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by aiyoyo on 06.08.14 15:34

Blue bag wrote:

What was done with the body under any scenario?

Under the Wednesday scenario, Gerry spent the next day away from the group doing solo activity. Something he needed to carry out alone not too conspicuously if possible. Perhaps also the group friends had no wish to be seen with him that day while he went about his dark activity.

Unless the corpse was hidden in the apt for day/s until Thursday, not impossible.
But that would be stressful madness having to go to sleep every night knowing your dead child's body is lying in the same space as you.


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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by NickE on 06.08.14 16:08

@XTC wrote:
@stillsloppingout wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:What stands out for me is the fact that there was criticism of the 'non-preservation' of the crime scene because of the volume of people in it, with GNR officers, Tapas friends and others present(including Yvonne Martin?)and yet AND YET the twins slept through it all...
That last line is key " YET THE TWINS SLEPT THROUGH IT ALL ". If it is to believed Maddie died the day before which is a real possibility , then not only have the parents committed a crime, they have the next day, drugged there children [ which due to them not waking , and Kate's visual checks is a IMO given .

But SURELY more likely they were all over sedated on the fateful day, resulting in the death of Maddie , as it would be beneath contempt to after losing a child say the day before, then drug / sedate  your children the next day . 

Which ever way the sleeping children [ and its implications ] is the glue that binds them all together . hence there will be NO break of the pact .
Yes . Thanks Peter.

Blacksmith can write some good stuff at times. As do many others on here and elsewhere.

If I may say I've been hanging round this extremely unusual case from the days of the 3a's and it's good to see a few familiar names still
theorising. I do it all the time and have many many theories as to what happened.

One to throw in the ring is whether any of the children were in 5a that night?

I like many can sometimes find myself sticking to a particular theory because it appears to be the logical one. Yet if it is revised due to info that wasn't known or someone makes an interesting and informative point then looking again in context of that point and relating it to my semi - fixed theory can give rise to a newish ( not necessarily new theory).

I/We  have assumed over a long period of time that all the action occurred in 5a. Mr Amaral thinks that the action happened in 5a. But just for a while could we postulate on a possibility that what happened did not happen in 5a? Say it happened elsewhere?

The story of the shutters and unlocked doors is not a great one for a staging of an abduction or anything else in my opinion. It has always been not a story badly told but a story quickly thought up possibly? If the accident happened elsewhere and the alleged staging in 5a was to cover up where the incident really happened then what can we make of say the cadaver scent or the neat bedding or the ruffled bedding on the bed near the window. Did someone ruffle up the wrong bed? Were MW sheets all the same style and could be swapped without losing a pair between apartments?

The cots were set almost to collapse from the PJ photo's and shelves didn't exist where the were meant to exist etc etc. All in 5a appeared to be done in hurry.


Linking to this: If Smithman wasn't GM as many think - who is he and where was he going at 10pm bearing in mind that if Mrs Fenn was correct in her timing ( 10.30 pm ) of the commotion beneath her flat the alarm may have gone off later than we assume?

Pure speculation this though. If the man the Smiths saw was not GM and they were able to describe vaguely his common features then RO is very tall. MO is taller ( possibly GM was wearing his jacket on the night of the torchlight appeal?)  than GM and DP is bald. Lump these together and prove beyond doubt via Tapas Bar witnesses that GM was at the table at 10pm then it wasn't any of the known Tapas men. If it was someone else carrying Madeleine who could it be and where was he going or coming from? Possibly not 5a? He has not ' revealed himself
a la JT Bundleman despite the Crimewatch appeal. Perhaps he never will - who knows.

p.s Despite the theory it is equally possible that an earlier demise occurred in 5a I wouldn't dispute that yet Mrs Fenn's testimony sticks deep in my mind. She may have been old but she wasn't an old fool in my opinion. She knew the time alright. Fortunately you can't libel a deceased person.

Just an opinion and food for thought.

p.p.s. Petermac's Anaethetists points are exceptionally well made. Makes a lot of sense.
Where was this man around 10pm??
The missing element??

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Guest on 06.08.14 17:11

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:
@NickE wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
nikeE wrote:"Kiko" have been in Contact with Robert Naylor,who admitted that the McCann's took Elizabeth to the Creche for 5 days,and what about Elizabeth's friend Madalene,who took her to the Creche?

Hang on a wait!  That is new to me, first time I heard that.
On the basis of that info, if Mccanns helped RN take their daughter to the creche for 5 days in a row with the agenda to sign Elizabeth in and at the same time made false entries for Madeleine, then not necessary RN knew about their agenda or was complicit in their scheme.

and what about Elizabeth's friend Madalene,who took her to the Creche?

This bit I don't understand?  Who took who to the creche?  
Who is Elizabeth and who is Madalene referred to here?

Elizabeth's friend Madalene Ri*er travelled to pdl and OC with the Naylor.
Madalene's parents was not with them on this trip.

Ohh, very risky, if true, I would not be happy at all if I was Madalenes parents. A step too far IMO
Come to think about it, who would let their 3/4yr old go to portugal with a friend? I know I wouldn't .

Oh Wow!  Let me get this right.  

So, the Naylors allowed the Mcs to take their daughter Elizabeth and presumably also her little friend Madelene (whose parents did not go to the PDL but entrusted her to the Naylors)  to the creche 5 days consecutively?  
Why would the Naylors want to do that?   Why would they allow  Kate or Gerry to take the pair of girls to the creche daily?
 Could they not get out of bed in time?  What about afternoon session creche?  Surely no one spends all their time sleeping on holiday?

This is head spinning revelation if true.
Obviously that opens up the possibility of a substitute child, same name as Madeleine, except for slight variation in spelling, to be signed in as Madeleine.  Provided (1) the creche staff were not aware of the spare child Naylors brought along also named Madelene ; and (2) provided the PJ hadn't sussed this out thus not looked at this angle.

This is really mind boggling.  I need to go lie down in a dark room.

Aiyoyo, IIRC, MR and her family were at PdL but not staying at the OC and left on Thursday evening, 3rd May.  There is more info in the Creche Records and Creche Enquiry threads.

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2922p370-the-creche-enquiry?highlight=creche+enquiry

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by NickE on 06.08.14 18:13

Ladyinred wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:
@NickE wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
nikeE wrote:"Kiko" have been in Contact with Robert Naylor,who admitted that the McCann's took Elizabeth to the Creche for 5 days,and what about Elizabeth's friend Madalene,who took her to the Creche?

Hang on a wait!  That is new to me, first time I heard that.
On the basis of that info, if Mccanns helped RN take their daughter to the creche for 5 days in a row with the agenda to sign Elizabeth in and at the same time made false entries for Madeleine, then not necessary RN knew about their agenda or was complicit in their scheme.

and what about Elizabeth's friend Madalene,who took her to the Creche?

This bit I don't understand?  Who took who to the creche?  
Who is Elizabeth and who is Madalene referred to here?

Elizabeth's friend Madalene Ri*er travelled to pdl and OC with the Naylor.
Madalene's parents was not with them on this trip.

Ohh, very risky, if true, I would not be happy at all if I was Madalenes parents. A step too far IMO
Come to think about it, who would let their 3/4yr old go to portugal with a friend? I know I wouldn't .

Oh Wow!  Let me get this right.  

So, the Naylors allowed the Mcs to take their daughter Elizabeth and presumably also her little friend Madelene (whose parents did not go to the PDL but entrusted her to the Naylors)  to the creche 5 days consecutively?  
Why would the Naylors want to do that?   Why would they allow  Kate or Gerry to take the pair of girls to the creche daily?
 Could they not get out of bed in time?  What about afternoon session creche?  Surely no one spends all their time sleeping on holiday?

This is head spinning revelation if true.
Obviously that opens up the possibility of a substitute child, same name as Madeleine, except for slight variation in spelling, to be signed in as Madeleine.  Provided (1) the creche staff were not aware of the spare child Naylors brought along also named Madelene ; and (2) provided the PJ hadn't sussed this out thus not looked at this angle.

This is really mind boggling.  I need to go lie down in a dark room.

Aiyoyo, IIRC, MR and her family were at PdL but not staying at the OC and left on Thursday evening, 3rd May.  There is more info in the Creche Records and Creche Enquiry threads.

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2922p370-the-creche-enquiry?highlight=creche+enquiry
Thanks for the correction thumbsup 



The name "Maddie" becomes interesting if McCann's took MR to Creche.


Clarence Mitchell, BBC in August 2008:
"Madeleine called herself 'Madeleine', and that was very much the name in the family as well, so that makes us wonder if this was indeed Madeleine" 



Kate McCann:
"My consolation is that on the cover he calls her Maddie, the name that the media have invented. We never called her anything like that."


But....
Charlotte Pennington (Ocean Club nanny)
'The informant adds that Madeleine was usually called "Maddie" given that it was under that name that Madeleine introduced herself to the informant, the shortened form of her first name.'
 
Excerpt summary of Charlotte Pennington's police interview on 07 May 2007

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Guest on 06.08.14 18:20

After MBM's reported disappearance, members of the extended family referred to her in interviews as Maddie.  It's here on the forum, can't remember where.  MR was known as Madelene.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by NickE on 06.08.14 19:04

Yes, the extended family,usually the mother know these things best.
erm..I can´t get it together. Rolling Eyes 


Kate McCann
"She has a lot of personality and her name actually means 'tower of strength'. But she hated it when we called her Maddie - she'd say, 'My name is Madeleine', with an indignant look on her face."

Women's Own interview, published 13 August 2007


Ocean Club nannies
'all the child-care workers, having contact with Madeleine, state that Madeleine introduced herself to them by her shortened name "Maddie".'

 
Excerpt summary of police interviews carried out from 05 May 2007 to 07 May 2007




But it looks like there is some kind of connection..



@kikoratton
 Tanner's sailing chum #RobertNaylor let Gerry sign in 2 girls at once. He did this on 5 occasions! Girls were Liz Naylor and a false Maddie.



[ltr]@kikoratton
[/ltr]
[ltr]We know the Naylors knew #McCann thru Tanner. So they helped him falsify the creche records, pretending to show that Maddie M was there>>>[/ltr]

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Guest on 06.08.14 19:33

Ladyinred wrote:After MBM's reported disappearance, members of the extended family referred to her in interviews as Maddie.  It's here on the forum, can't remember where.  MR was known as Madelene.

... because MR was Madelene, then MBM had to become Madeleine after her reported disappearance even though, it would seem, she was usually known as Maddie.  IMO

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Guest on 07.08.14 8:02

@NickE wrote:
@XTC wrote:
@stillsloppingout wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:What stands out for me is the fact that there was criticism of the 'non-preservation' of the crime scene because of the volume of people in it, with GNR officers, Tapas friends and others present(including Yvonne Martin?)and yet AND YET the twins slept through it all...
That last line is key " YET THE TWINS SLEPT THROUGH IT ALL ". If it is to believed Maddie died the day before which is a real possibility , then not only have the parents committed a crime, they have the next day, drugged there children [ which due to them not waking , and Kate's visual checks is a IMO given .

But SURELY more likely they were all over sedated on the fateful day, resulting in the death of Maddie , as it would be beneath contempt to after losing a child say the day before, then drug / sedate  your children the next day . 

Which ever way the sleeping children [ and its implications ] is the glue that binds them all together . hence there will be NO break of the pact .
Yes . Thanks Peter.

Blacksmith can write some good stuff at times. As do many others on here and elsewhere.

If I may say I've been hanging round this extremely unusual case from the days of the 3a's and it's good to see a few familiar names still
theorising. I do it all the time and have many many theories as to what happened.

One to throw in the ring is whether any of the children were in 5a that night?

I like many can sometimes find myself sticking to a particular theory because it appears to be the logical one. Yet if it is revised due to info that wasn't known or someone makes an interesting and informative point then looking again in context of that point and relating it to my semi - fixed theory can give rise to a newish ( not necessarily new theory).

I/We  have assumed over a long period of time that all the action occurred in 5a. Mr Amaral thinks that the action happened in 5a. But just for a while could we postulate on a possibility that what happened did not happen in 5a? Say it happened elsewhere?

The story of the shutters and unlocked doors is not a great one for a staging of an abduction or anything else in my opinion. It has always been not a story badly told but a story quickly thought up possibly? If the accident happened elsewhere and the alleged staging in 5a was to cover up where the incident really happened then what can we make of say the cadaver scent or the neat bedding or the ruffled bedding on the bed near the window. Did someone ruffle up the wrong bed? Were MW sheets all the same style and could be swapped without losing a pair between apartments?

The cots were set almost to collapse from the PJ photo's and shelves didn't exist where the were meant to exist etc etc. All in 5a appeared to be done in hurry.


Linking to this: If Smithman wasn't GM as many think - who is he and where was he going at 10pm bearing in mind that if Mrs Fenn was correct in her timing ( 10.30 pm ) of the commotion beneath her flat the alarm may have gone off later than we assume?

Pure speculation this though. If the man the Smiths saw was not GM and they were able to describe vaguely his common features then RO is very tall. MO is taller ( possibly GM was wearing his jacket on the night of the torchlight appeal?)  than GM and DP is bald. Lump these together and prove beyond doubt via Tapas Bar witnesses that GM was at the table at 10pm then it wasn't any of the known Tapas men. If it was someone else carrying Madeleine who could it be and where was he going or coming from? Possibly not 5a? He has not ' revealed himself
a la JT Bundleman despite the Crimewatch appeal. Perhaps he never will - who knows.

p.s Despite the theory it is equally possible that an earlier demise occurred in 5a I wouldn't dispute that yet Mrs Fenn's testimony sticks deep in my mind. She may have been old but she wasn't an old fool in my opinion. She knew the time alright. Fortunately you can't libel a deceased person.

Just an opinion and food for thought.

p.p.s. Petermac's Anaethetists points are exceptionally well made. Makes a lot of sense.
Where was this man around 10pm??
The missing element??

Philip Edmonds.  Who claims to have background pictures of MBM on the day of her reported disappearance.

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t9811-philip-edmonds-pictures-of-madeleine?highlight=philip+edmonds

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Guest on 07.08.14 18:50

Ladyinred wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:After MBM's reported disappearance, members of the extended family referred to her in interviews as Maddie.  It's here on the forum, can't remember where.  MR was known as Madelene.

... because MR was Madelene, then MBM had to become Madeleine after her reported disappearance even though, it would seem, she was usually known as Maddie.  IMO

So we have a girl a year or so younger than MM (nearer to 3 than 4 - taken from the linked thread) which would account for MM's unusually small height of 90cm, who liked to be called Madelene, not Maddie. So Madeleine also had to prefer to be called Madeleine despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Moreover, Madelene was abroad without her parents but as a guest of a family who were acquainted if not friends with the McCanns. This is one coincidence too many, so it must be inferred that Madelene was in PDL for a reason. Which must also suggest the possibility that Madeleine's disappearance had already happened prior to the holiday or was planned to occur during the holiday (the dogs' evidence would suggest the latter).

The alternative - another Madelene, without her family and available for possible use as a substitute with her guardians' apparent blessing, just happening to be there coincidentally with the accidental disappearance of another Madeleine is a step too far for me.

All in my opinion and not stated as fact.

Are we certain Madelene was a guest of the Naylors and her parents weren't in PDL?

Cristobel's riddler is singing in my ear again.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Guest on 07.08.14 18:57

http://www.ionglobaltrends.com/2007/10/mccanns-build-it-up-with-silver-and.html#.U-O1Yn3TVcs

Also on the linked 'creche' thread was another link to Mike Hitchen's blog (above). Some intriguing hints there about the Tapas 9's connections to the the great and the good of Edinburgh. Anyone know anything more?

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Guest on 07.08.14 19:10

Dee Coy wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:After MBM's reported disappearance, members of the extended family referred to her in interviews as Maddie.  It's here on the forum, can't remember where.  MR was known as Madelene.

... because MR was Madelene, then MBM had to become Madeleine after her reported disappearance even though, it would seem, she was usually known as Maddie.  IMO

So we have a girl a year or so younger than MM (nearer to 3 than 4 - taken from the linked thread) which would account for MM's unusually small height of 90cm, who liked to be called Madelene, not Maddie. So Madeleine also had to prefer to be called Madeleine despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Moreover, Madelene was abroad without her parents but as a guest of a family who were acquainted if not friends with the McCanns. This is one coincidence too many, so it must be inferred that Madelene was in PDL for a reason. Which must also suggest the possibility that Madeleine's disappearance had already happened prior to the holiday or was planned to occur during the holiday (the dogs' evidence would suggest the latter).

The alternative - another Madelene, without her family and available for possible use as a substitute with her guardians' apparent blessing, just happening to be there coincidentally with the accidental disappearance of another Madeleine is a step too far for me.

All in my opinion and not stated as fact.

Are we certain Madelene was a guest of the Naylors and her parents weren't in PDL?

Cristobel's riddler is singing in my ear again.

I believe MR was in PdL with her family but not staying at the OC.  I also remember reading here (one of Russian doll's post IIRC) that MR would not attend the creche without her friend, EN.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Guest on 07.08.14 19:23

Thanks, LIR. The presence of her parents decreases the chance that Madelene was there solely for use as a substitute, what parents unconnected to the McCanns would willingly offer their child to this end? So if Madelene was signed-in and recognised in the creche as 'Madeleine' for the full week then her parents must have entrusted her to the Naylors for the whole holiday. Seems strange.

I have read before about Elizabeth Naylor's attachment to her friend. I always felt comforted knowing Madeleine was adored in this way by her friend at least. Now it appears this could have been a totally different child who Elizabeth loved. Poor Madeleine.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Justformaddie on 07.08.14 19:25

Oh God, I feel sick if this is true, and means a lot more people involved.
IMO
Then again, if this was planned, surely there couldn't have been so much discrepancies between the tapas9?

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Guest on 07.08.14 20:00

This, from JT's rog (copied from McCannfiles):

Reply    “Err yeah so I went sailing but with somebody else, who I can’t remember his name but that is in my previous statement and Dave and Fi also, so they took one boat out and I took the other boat out with this other chap.”
4078    “Okay. You spent every morning, how long were the tennis lessons?”
Reply    “Err an hour.”
4078    “So you spent an hour every morning with Kate.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And Rachael. Was it Rachael?”
Reply    “Yes, yeah.”
4078    “Did you spend any time with Kate in any other activities specifically? Not just sort of chatting.”
Reply    “Err no not really, I think sometimes she was there in the afternoon if we were by the pool.”
4078    “Mm.”
Reply    “You know, but err but no, no other specific arranged activities.”
4078    “What about with Gerry?”
Reply    “No because he tended to do his separately, which is probably why I didn’t get to know him as well over the week as well because he was better at tennis than us so he had the ten thirty lesson which was the intermediates rather than the beginners.”
4078    “Right.”
Reply    “So you know we sort of tended to sort of pass and also they had a few extra lessons in the afternoon as well so, and they tended to do all tennis based activities, whereas the rest of us were sort of bitting and bobbing between you know beach activities as well as, as well as the tennis.”
4078    “So your contact with Kate was limited to your tennis lessons and then to sort of just sitting socially..”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “At the play area or in the Tapas bar, generally.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, around that sort of area.”
4078    “And with Gerry it was just limited to the social side.”
Reply    “It was mainly in the evening that we saw, well after the high tea for the kids, we called it high tea but you know, tea for the kids, and afterwards in the play area with the kids and then, and then in the restaurant in the evening.”
4078    “And on the Wednesday at the sailing, you mentioned there was somebody else present, you couldn’t remember their name.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Was that another guest?”
Reply    “That was, yeah that was another guest and his wife actually did the tennis lessons with us err and he’d done the first, I say, he was, the rest of us who did the windsurfing, it was Russ, me, Dave and Fi, and this other chap on the first day so I’d met him on the, would it be the Sunday or the mon, the Monday, I met him on the Monday. So Russell didn’t come down for the err the second windsurfing lesson which turned into a sailing lesson.”
4078    “Yeah, I’m with you there.”
Reply    “So, yeah, so we took a boat out and Dave and Fi took a boat out.”
4078    “Right. If his name comes back to you at some point just let me know.”
Reply    “Rob? I think it might have been Rob, but…”
4078    “Right.”
Reply    “But it’s definitely in my first statement, so, but I think he was called Rob.”

I believe JT is referring to Robert Naylor.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by NickE on 07.08.14 20:40

goodpost 
"Kiko" said that he knows that Tanner knew Naylor.

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by NickE on 07.08.14 21:51

Ladyinred wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:After MBM's reported disappearance, members of the extended family referred to her in interviews as Maddie.  It's here on the forum, can't remember where.  MR was known as Madelene.

... because MR was Madelene, then MBM had to become Madeleine after her reported disappearance even though, it would seem, she was usually known as Maddie.  IMO

So we have a girl a year or so younger than MM (nearer to 3 than 4 - taken from the linked thread) which would account for MM's unusually small height of 90cm, who liked to be called Madelene, not Maddie. So Madeleine also had to prefer to be called Madeleine despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Moreover, Madelene was abroad without her parents but as a guest of a family who were acquainted if not friends with the McCanns. This is one coincidence too many, so it must be inferred that Madelene was in PDL for a reason. Which must also suggest the possibility that Madeleine's disappearance had already happened prior to the holiday or was planned to occur during the holiday (the dogs' evidence would suggest the latter).

The alternative - another Madelene, without her family and available for possible use as a substitute with her guardians' apparent blessing, just happening to be there coincidentally with the accidental disappearance of another Madeleine is a step too far for me.

All in my opinion and not stated as fact.

Are we certain Madelene was a guest of the Naylors and her parents weren't in PDL?

Cristobel's riddler is singing in my ear again.

I believe MR was in PdL with her family but not staying at the OC.  I also remember reading here (one of Russian doll's post IIRC) that MR would not attend the creche without her friend, EN.
Still friends 2013. 
Classmates at Larmenier and Sacred Heart Catholic Primary School. 
http://larshrc.lbhf.sch.uk/sites/default/files/file_uploads/newsletter-_issue_117.pdf



I would like to see a photo of MR and compare it with an age progression image of MBM

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by Searcgforthetruth on 07.08.14 21:59

Apologies if this has already been raised but been away on holiday and not had chance to read the whole thread but one thing thrum me - if AR is dismissing the Jane Tanner sighting as another parent carrying their child home from the night crèche why would he be "running" as described by Jane Tanner in her initial conversion with the GNR?

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Re: Cracked Mirror: Reflections on the McCann affair - The Policemen's Tales

Post by HelenMeg on 07.08.14 22:00

Well found! So still together. I believe there is something in this ...

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