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WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

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Who still thinks this is a whitewash?

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Total Votes : 84

Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Newintown on 30.07.14 14:49

@galena wrote:
@Newintown wrote:I'm still of the opinion that it is not a whitewash. 

I was watching a "real NCIS" tv programme a few nights ago in which the police investigators were investigating a gang who had done many crimes but they did not have enough evidence to convict them.  I only had one ear on the tv but both ears pricked up when I heard one of the investigators state at the end of the programme -

"It's like peeling back the layers of an onion, you have to go back to square one and start again and go over and over every shred of evidence you have, you have to keep motivated, you have to keep strong no matter how long it takes".

Hmmmmm.   smilie

ETA:  I can't see the point of Andy Redwood saying the words "it's like peeling back the layers of an onion" if SY were only interested in working on a cover up.
It strikes me that there is an enormous difference between a criminal gang and a couple of well-off doctors with many powerful supporters  - a better analogy might be to look at the vigorous way the police investigated the accusations of paedophilia against well known or powerful people in the past  - or rather didn't!

Redwood may talking about 'peeling onions' but  since he has effectively ruled out the parents as suspects he has failed to go back to the first layer - which makes the whole thing a whitewash from the start in my opinion, anyway.

I doubt AR would have said in front of TV cameras that the McCanns were on the top of his list of suspects, all hell would have broken loose if he had!

Judging by the demeanour of the McCanns outside the Lisbon court recently they looked and sounded as if they're under enormous pressure and that their whole world is crashing down around them

I wasn't referring to the difference between a criminal gang and well-off doctors, I was referring to the enormous lengths police investigators have to go to to get a solid criminal conviction even if it takes them years of pain-staking work, trawling through witness statements etc etc to find that crucial bit of evidence.

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Praiaaa on 30.07.14 15:03

@Newintown wrote:
@galena wrote:
@Newintown wrote:I'm still of the opinion that it is not a whitewash. 

I was watching a "real NCIS" tv programme a few nights ago in which the police investigators were investigating a gang who had done many crimes but they did not have enough evidence to convict them.  I only had one ear on the tv but both ears pricked up when I heard one of the investigators state at the end of the programme -

"It's like peeling back the layers of an onion, you have to go back to square one and start again and go over and over every shred of evidence you have, you have to keep motivated, you have to keep strong no matter how long it takes".

Hmmmmm.   smilie

ETA:  I can't see the point of Andy Redwood saying the words "it's like peeling back the layers of an onion" if SY were only interested in working on a cover up.
It strikes me that there is an enormous difference between a criminal gang and a couple of well-off doctors with many powerful supporters  - a better analogy might be to look at the vigorous way the police investigated the accusations of paedophilia against well known or powerful people in the past  - or rather didn't!

Redwood may talking about 'peeling onions' but  since he has effectively ruled out the parents as suspects he has failed to go back to the first layer - which makes the whole thing a whitewash from the start in my opinion, anyway.

I doubt AR would have said in front of TV cameras that the McCanns were on the top of his list of suspects, all hell would have broken loose if he had!

I wasn't referring to the difference between a criminal gang and well-off doctors, I was referring to the enormous lengths police investigators have to go to to get a solid criminal conviction even if it takes them years of pain-staking work, trawling through witness statements etc etc to find that crucial bit of evidence.
Good post! I think we are so used to tv dramas with everything neatly wrapped up in 2 hrs, that we expect this in real life. Unlike Hercule Poirot et al, police need evidence that will convince a jury to give a solid conviction that will not be overturned by defence counsel on appeal. Just think of all the stuff the comes out AFTER a trial that no-one is made aware of before...
A few weeks ago, I was on a Mark Warner hol (not PdL), convo turned to MM, and initially people were wary of criticising TM until  one brave soul (not me, I was a coward!) mentioned the dogs and other anomalies, and the outcome after discussion was that 9 middle-class Mark Warner clients concluded that MM death had occurred, either by accident in the apt or outside and bought back and died in the appt. And were intending to lokk at eh file online. It was the dogs. People believe the dog 'evidence'. And IMO that is why GM is so desperate to diss the dogs.

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Newintown on 30.07.14 15:20

@Praiaaa wrote:
@Newintown wrote:
@galena wrote:
@Newintown wrote:I'm still of the opinion that it is not a whitewash. 

I was watching a "real NCIS" tv programme a few nights ago in which the police investigators were investigating a gang who had done many crimes but they did not have enough evidence to convict them.  I only had one ear on the tv but both ears pricked up when I heard one of the investigators state at the end of the programme -

"It's like peeling back the layers of an onion, you have to go back to square one and start again and go over and over every shred of evidence you have, you have to keep motivated, you have to keep strong no matter how long it takes".

Hmmmmm.   smilie

ETA:  I can't see the point of Andy Redwood saying the words "it's like peeling back the layers of an onion" if SY were only interested in working on a cover up.
It strikes me that there is an enormous difference between a criminal gang and a couple of well-off doctors with many powerful supporters  - a better analogy might be to look at the vigorous way the police investigated the accusations of paedophilia against well known or powerful people in the past  - or rather didn't!

Redwood may talking about 'peeling onions' but  since he has effectively ruled out the parents as suspects he has failed to go back to the first layer - which makes the whole thing a whitewash from the start in my opinion, anyway.

I doubt AR would have said in front of TV cameras that the McCanns were on the top of his list of suspects, all hell would have broken loose if he had!

I wasn't referring to the difference between a criminal gang and well-off doctors, I was referring to the enormous lengths police investigators have to go to to get a solid criminal conviction even if it takes them years of pain-staking work, trawling through witness statements etc etc to find that crucial bit of evidence.
Good post! I think we are so used to tv dramas with everything neatly wrapped up in 2 hrs, that we expect this in real life. Unlike Hercule Poirot et al, police need evidence that will convince a jury to give a solid conviction that will not be overturned by defence counsel on appeal. Just think of all the stuff the comes out AFTER a trial that no-one is made aware of before...
A few weeks ago, I was on a Mark Warner hol (not PdL), convo turned to MM, and initially people were wary of criticising TM until  one brave soul (not me, I was a coward!) mentioned the dogs and other anomalies, and the outcome after discussion was that 9 middle-class Mark Warner clients concluded that MM death had occurred, either by accident in the apt or outside and bought back and died in the appt. And were intending to lokk at eh file online. It was the dogs. People believe the dog 'evidence'. And IMO that is why GM is so desperate to diss the dogs.

I watch a lot of "real crime investigation" tv programmes, mostly from the USA, they're fascinating (and quite frightening at times) to see the enormous lengths that the investigators go to, from 24 hour surveillance and telephone tapping on suspects to infiltrating gangs and risking their own lives doing so.

Yes, we are all brainwashed into thinking that a criminal investigation can be tied up in a few weeks or months when in fact the reality is the opposite.  If the "Fund" is also being investigated that on its own could take years to find out where all the money has disappeared to, especially if it's gone into off-shore accounts.

I did see your post on another topic regarding your conversation on the MW holiday with the other holiday makers.  The McCanns are terrified of "the dogs" and cannot in any way wipe that evidence from existence, no matter how much they try.

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Claire25 on 30.07.14 22:34

I don't think it's a whitewash.

The digs were all for show IMO... Sending a message to the public and the T9 ... Digging/dogs/death... Preparing the public and putting pressure on them to talk.  I cannot see TM cracking but someone else possibly, the TV coverage was massive, and honestly if I was involved and redwood himself called me and said to ignore everything I was seeing, it's all a whitewash I doubt I'd believe him I'd be such a paranoid mess.
And I don't think the digs were anything to do with the libel trial, the money spent on the digs just to say no evidence that mm is dead?! I doubt that when they couldn't even get their tapas friends in to vouch for them.

But the digs have sent the message of death and that strips TM of their biggest form of defence, the fund.  No one is going to donate to help them find a dead child so the money will run dry and they won't be able to buy silence anymore. 

The press must be chomping at the bit and IMO they know exactly which way it's going seeing as we've seen stories printed that are far braver than we've seen for ages, they must collectively feel safe to do that now for some reason.

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Justformaddie on 30.07.14 23:45

It's the dogs that the mcs can't but need to get whooshed. The dogs can't do it alone, so they need just one more bit of solid evidence to back them up, then, IMO their carter rucked!

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Claire25 on 30.07.14 23:51

@Justformaddie wrote:It's the dogs that the mcs can't but need to get whooshed. The dogs can't do it alone, so they need just one more bit of solid evidence to back them up, then, IMO their carter rucked!
And if it is a whitewash, TM and OG need to be signing the same hymn, we wouldn't see OG saying dogs, dogs more dogs (even if they were setting up a patsy) and GM still bleating on about how unreliable they are IMO

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Justformaddie on 31.07.14 0:05

When gm mentioned the dogs at the trial and told to be quiet, the judge was proberly saying into herself, yea right gm, I'm not listening to your bullshit IMO dogs don't, can't and won't lie.

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Cristobell on 31.07.14 0:26

@Claire25 wrote:I don't think it's a whitewash.

The digs were all for show IMO... Sending a message to the public and the T9 ... Digging/dogs/death... Preparing the public and putting pressure on them to talk.  I cannot see TM cracking but someone else possibly, the TV coverage was massive, and honestly if I was involved and redwood himself called me and said to ignore everything I was seeing, it's all a whitewash I doubt I'd believe him I'd be such a paranoid mess.
And I don't think the digs were anything to do with the libel trial, the money spent on the digs just to say no evidence that mm is dead?! I doubt that when they couldn't even get their tapas friends in to vouch for them.

But the digs have sent the message of death and that strips TM of their biggest form of defence, the fund.  No one is going to donate to help them find a dead child so the money will run dry and they won't be able to buy silence anymore. 

The press must be chomping at the bit and IMO they know exactly which way it's going seeing as we've seen stories printed that are far braver than we've seen for ages, they must collectively feel safe to do that now for some reason.
 goodpost  goodpost and welcome Clare.

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by galena on 31.07.14 8:15

@Newintown wrote:
@galena wrote:
@Newintown wrote:I'm still of the opinion that it is not a whitewash. 

I was watching a "real NCIS" tv programme a few nights ago in which the police investigators were investigating a gang who had done many crimes but they did not have enough evidence to convict them.  I only had one ear on the tv but both ears pricked up when I heard one of the investigators state at the end of the programme -

"It's like peeling back the layers of an onion, you have to go back to square one and start again and go over and over every shred of evidence you have, you have to keep motivated, you have to keep strong no matter how long it takes".

Hmmmmm.   smilie

ETA:  I can't see the point of Andy Redwood saying the words "it's like peeling back the layers of an onion" if SY were only interested in working on a cover up.
It strikes me that there is an enormous difference between a criminal gang and a couple of well-off doctors with many powerful supporters  - a better analogy might be to look at the vigorous way the police investigated the accusations of paedophilia against well known or powerful people in the past  - or rather didn't!

Redwood may talking about 'peeling onions' but  since he has effectively ruled out the parents as suspects he has failed to go back to the first layer - which makes the whole thing a whitewash from the start in my opinion, anyway.

I doubt AR would have said in front of TV cameras that the McCanns were on the top of his list of suspects, all hell would have broken loose if he had!

Judging by the demeanour of the McCanns outside the Lisbon court recently they looked and sounded as if they're under enormous pressure and that their whole world is crashing down around them

I wasn't referring to the difference between a criminal gang and well-off doctors, I was referring to the enormous lengths police investigators have to go to to get a solid criminal conviction even if it takes them years of pain-staking work, trawling through witness statements etc etc to find that crucial bit of evidence.

He didn't need to say they were on the top of his list of suspects - he didn't need to say anything at all either to implicate or exonerate them.  But he deliberately chose to say that they were not suspects.  This to me is either a mission statement for the investigation or a very clever bluff.  Frankly the more I think about the less reason I can see for the bluff, or what the digging in PDL has actually achieved. 

Yes the police will work for years, digging through evidence etc but only if they have an incentive to do so, ie being showered with praise for capturing a notorious gang, but as we have also seen they can turn a blind eye as well if told to do so by someone high up.

My feeling is that Cameron - who probably in a staunch pro- ordered the investigation hoping for a solution to the mystery before the election - with the orders that the poor McCanns who had suffered enough should be cleared right from the start.  However as anyone who has studied the case can say, once you take the McCanns and their friends out of the equation there really is nothing left to do - other than dig in random locations and question various characters who may or may not have been in PDL at the time.  So the police are left just marking time until the whole thing can be forgotten.

I have to add that I do not think the McCanns are involved, or orchestrating the whole thing - though no doubt someone high up may have slipped them a reassuring word. I am sure they are deeply unhappy about the whole thing being reopened

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by secrets and lies on 31.07.14 8:26

Apologies, am replying here quickly without having fully read the most recent posts.

My concern is that if we are to accept or even suspect that there is a whole web of intrigue surrounding this story and a lot of powerful people involved then is Scotland Yard really in a position to bring this whole house of cards tumbling down? 

This of course might depend upon just WHOM is involved but if it cuts through the very fabric of society and it's discovered that the entire political establishment had been covering and protecting The McCanns, then can you imagine the consequences?

For now, I personally have no faith in this investigation.

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Justformaddie on 31.07.14 19:24

Jez just read about a  trusted former aide of prince Philip and princess Anne up for three charges of child sex abuse, them people are pretty high up and now being investigated by sy! Wow IMO

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by HelenMeg on 31.07.14 19:29

@Justformaddie wrote:Jez just read about a  trusted former aide of prince Philip and princess Anne up for three charges of child sex abuse, them people are pretty high up and now being investigated by sy! Wow IMO
Hi - Wow !
 where did you read this?

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Justformaddie on 31.07.14 19:34

@HelenMeg wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:Jez just read about a  trusted former aide of prince Philip and princess Anne up for three charges of child sex abuse, them people are pretty high up and now being investigated by sy! Wow IMO
Hi - Wow !
 where did you read this?
I'm so annoyed I can't bloody link yet  duh  But it's in the mirror app! I know they're not to be trusted but were talking close enough to the royals so I believe this one!

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Guest on 31.07.14 19:38

@Justformaddie wrote:Jez just read about a  trusted former aide of prince Philip and princess Anne up for three charges of child sex abuse, them people are pretty high up and now being investigated by sy! Wow IMO


Did you read this is the msm or some internet site??   Pretty damning accusations.    What section of SY is investigating them, any idea, any links  ??

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Justformaddie on 31.07.14 19:43

daffodil wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:Jez just read about a  trusted former aide of prince Philip and princess Anne up for three charges of child sex abuse, them people are pretty high up and now being investigated by sy! Wow IMO


Did you read this is the msm or some internet site??   Pretty damning accusations.    What section of SY is investigating them, any idea, any links  ??
Mirror app, can't link I'm stupid! His name is Benjamin Herman it written by a tom  pettifor says detectives at Scotland Yard are investigating!

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by sallypelt on 31.07.14 19:57

@Justformaddie wrote:
daffodil wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:Jez just read about a  trusted former aide of prince Philip and princess Anne up for three charges of child sex abuse, them people are pretty high up and now being investigated by sy! Wow IMO


Did you read this is the msm or some internet site??   Pretty damning accusations.    What section of SY is investigating them, any idea, any links  ??
Mirror app, can't link I'm stupid! His name is Benjamin Herman it written by a tom  pettifor says detectives at Scotland Yard are investigating!

Here is a link:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/31/prince-philip-ex-aide-on-sex-charges

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Justformaddie on 31.07.14 20:01

@sallypelt wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:
daffodil wrote:
@Justformaddie wrote:Jez just read about a  trusted former aide of prince Philip and princess Anne up for three charges of child sex abuse, them people are pretty high up and now being investigated by sy! Wow IMO


Did you read this is the msm or some internet site??   Pretty damning accusations.    What section of SY is investigating them, any idea, any links  ??
Mirror app, can't link I'm stupid! His name is Benjamin Herman it written by a tom  pettifor says detectives at Scotland Yard are investigating!

Here is a link:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/31/prince-philip-ex-aide-on-sex-charges
Aww, thank you  roses Pretty damning eh?

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Cristobell on 31.07.14 20:28

Taking the whitewash theory further, what will it achieve?  Scotland Yard could declare the McCanns innocent and the case could be filed 'abductor unknown'.

But that won't be the end of it.  The libel trial in Lisbon must end, and even given the delays, there is good chance the verdict will be known before next year.  In addition, the PJ have re-opened their investigation and from their past actions, we know that they will not leave it open indefinitely.  It will be filed or prosecuted.  From the survey, only one person has voted the case will end with a patsy being prosecuted by SY supported by the PJ.  I think therefore, most of us do not believe the PJ will be part of any whitewash.

This leaves a whitewash by Scotland Yard, and in that event, they will stand alone.  The rest of the world must make its own mind up as to whether to accept the verdict of SY or the verdict of the police in the country where the crime took place.  Has there ever been a crime in modern history where a foreign police force have stepped in to overrule the verdict of the home police force?  Is it even legal in International Law?

Putting all of that aside, and sticking with the case having been whitewashed, how will it end?  If SY announce the McCanns and their friend have been completely absolved, none of us on here will believe it. Will it be believed worldwide?


Will Kate and Gerry return to their rightful place among the upper echelons of society?  More ambassadorships? Something in politics for Gerry maybe?  Highly unlikely, because the questions marks will not have gone away.  The case will be filed with as much controversy as it was first time round, and then some.  The whitewash will be a massive fail because further details pointing towards the McCanns have been revealed.  When it was filed away 6 years ago, death was a forbidden word and the shapeshifting Tannerman was the rock on which the abduction story was built.  Now, even the most ardent of the McCann supporters are abandoning them in droves.

So the next question has to be, What will a Whitewash achieve?

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Praiaaa on 31.07.14 20:43

This has probably been said before, but what else could AR have said?
I am sceptical, maybe even cynical,  about the Met and SY, but if the parents were suspects, AR could hardly have said they were. And if he said 'no comment', or fudged it, then this would have been as obvious as saying they were - people would have drawn that conclusion.
Would make sense to say upfront the parents are not suspects, before that question was asked ( as it would be) so as not to have to lie on the hoof - much easier to lie in a prepared statement than on the spot when questioned.
And when later it is shown, if it, that it was a lie, so what?
How else could he have dealt with it?

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Claire25 on 31.07.14 20:59

@Cristobell wrote:Taking the whitewash theory further, what will it achieve?  Scotland Yard could declare the McCanns innocent and the case could be filed 'abductor unknown'.

But that won't be the end of it.  The libel trial in Lisbon must end, and even given the delays, there is good chance the verdict will be known before next year.  In addition, the PJ have re-opened their investigation and from their past actions, we know that they will not leave it open indefinitely.  It will be filed or prosecuted.  From the survey, only one person has voted the case will end with a patsy being prosecuted by SY supported by the PJ.  I think therefore, most of us do not believe the PJ will be part of any whitewash.

This leaves a whitewash by Scotland Yard, and in that event, they will stand alone.  The rest of the world must make its own mind up as to whether to accept the verdict of SY or the verdict of the police in the country where the crime took place.  Has there ever been a crime in modern history where a foreign police force have stepped in to overrule the verdict of the home police force?  Is it even legal in International Law?

Putting all of that aside, and sticking with the case having been whitewashed, how will it end?  If SY announce the McCanns and their friend have been completely absolved, none of us on here will believe it. Will it be believed worldwide?


Will Kate and Gerry return to their rightful place among the upper echelons of society?  More ambassadorships? Something in politics for Gerry maybe?  Highly unlikely, because the questions marks will not have gone away.  The case will be filed with as much controversy as it was first time round, and then some.  The whitewash will be a massive fail because further details pointing towards the McCanns have been revealed.  When it was filed away 6 years ago, death was a forbidden word and the shapeshifting Tannerman was the rock on which the abduction story was built.  Now, even the most ardent of the McCann supporters are abandoning them in droves.

So the next question has to be, What will a Whitewash achieve?
All that a whitewash will achieve is the end of the fund and without that they are dead in the water IMO.

Lizzy posted some of the feedback that she had received from OG onto hideho and I believed it and still do.

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Tony Bennett on 31.07.14 21:17

@Praiaaa wrote:This has probably been said before, but what else could AR have said?
I am sceptical, maybe even cynical,  about the Met and SY, but if the parents were suspects, AR could hardly have said they were. And if he said 'no comment', or fudged it, then this would have been as obvious as saying they were - people would have drawn that conclusion.
Would make sense to say upfront the parents are not suspects, before that question was asked (as it would be) so as not to have to lie on the hoof - much easier to lie in a prepared statement than on the spot when questioned.
And when later it is shown, if it, that it was a lie, so what?
How else could he have dealt with it?
We are forgetting something important here.

That is that DCI Andy Redwood is stuck with his remit.

He was handed that remit before he began to work as Head of Operation Grange. And he accepted it.

After many enquiries, a Freedom of Information Act request revealed that Redwood's remit was: "To investigate the abduction as if it had happened in Britain" (or words to that effect).

He cannot go beyond his remit (PeterMac will confirm), at least not without seeking permission from his seniors to do so, otherwise he could be guilty of misconduct (i.e. not obeying orders).

His remit was given to him by Det Chief Supt Hamish Campbell, and those above him in the Met, the Home Office, and right up to the Prime Minister. Campbell of course will go down in history as the man chiefly responsible for wrongfully convicting Barry Bulsara/George on the sole evidence of one speck of firearms residue 'found' in his coat pocket, a trick pulled by his Senior Investigating Officer, Brian Moore, in Stoke Newington - at that time the most corrupt police force in the country - to convict anothert innocent man.
  
So the questions are:

1. When was that remit agreed?

2. Who decided the remit?

In fact I asked these particular FoI Act questions in late 2011 and they were refused

The remit is plain - to investigate the abduction. No room for manoeuvre at all; it had been decided in advance that Grange would only investigate an abduction.

All those who have thought for 3 years that this is a genuine investigation, looking at all possibilities, should look back again at the remit.

The question is NOT 'How did Madeleine disappear?'

It is: 'Who was the abductor?' - pure and simple.

Followed by: 'What did the abductor do with Madeleine?'

+++++++++++++++++++++++


@ Cristobell

You asked: "What will a whitewash achieve?"

What have whitewashes ever achieved?

The fresh white paint of a cover-up covers up any multitude of ugly and unpleasant sights.

It was a subject on which Christ Himself commented, speaking to the pompous religious hypocrites of His day (Matthew 23 vv 27-8):

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited [whitewashed] sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity".

So it is with any whitewash report, which surely Redwood will make in the next few months.

Outwardly it will seem that he has strained every nerve and muscle to find the truth.

Whereas, with the help of the mainstream media, he will have done his very best to bury it.

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by aquila on 31.07.14 21:33

You've hit the nail on the head there Tony and I suspect you'll get the usual stick.

It's all about the Remit.

Goncalo Amaral was investigating the disappearance of Madeleine. He was free to investigate every single possibility.

Scotland Yard's Remit is in black and white and it's 'abduction'.

ETA: Goncalo was free to investigate every single possibility until it didn't suit certain people higher up the food chain imo.

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Guest on 31.07.14 21:33

@Cristobell wrote:Taking the whitewash theory further, what will it achieve?  Scotland Yard could declare the McCanns innocent and the case could be filed 'abductor unknown'.

But that won't be the end of it.  The libel trial in Lisbon must end, and even given the delays, there is good chance the verdict will be known before next year.  In addition, the PJ have re-opened their investigation and from their past actions, we know that they will not leave it open indefinitely.  It will be filed or prosecuted.  From the survey, only one person has voted the case will end with a patsy being prosecuted by SY supported by the PJ.  I think therefore, most of us do not believe the PJ will be part of any whitewash.

This leaves a whitewash by Scotland Yard, and in that event, they will stand alone.  The rest of the world must make its own mind up as to whether to accept the verdict of SY or the verdict of the police in the country where the crime took place.  Has there ever been a crime in modern history where a foreign police force have stepped in to overrule the verdict of the home police force?  Is it even legal in International Law?

Putting all of that aside, and sticking with the case having been whitewashed, how will it end?  If SY announce the McCanns and their friend have been completely absolved, none of us on here will believe it. Will it be believed worldwide?


Will Kate and Gerry return to their rightful place among the upper echelons of society?  More ambassadorships? Something in politics for Gerry maybe?  Highly unlikely, because the questions marks will not have gone away.  The case will be filed with as much controversy as it was first time round, and then some.  The whitewash will be a massive fail because further details pointing towards the McCanns have been revealed.  When it was filed away 6 years ago, death was a forbidden word and the shapeshifting Tannerman was the rock on which the abduction story was built.  Now, even the most ardent of the McCann supporters are abandoning them in droves.

So the next question has to be, What will a Whitewash achieve?
I was interested to read your views Cristobell.
What are your opinions on the PJ re-opened investigation?   We know nothing about what is or has been advanced of this.   
Maybe I'm wrong, but I have always considered the SY investigation secondary to the PJ.   
What concerns me is that the general public accept the SY investigation to be the final answer to this poor missing child's disappearance, yet it is only a review of the information available at that time, and it is apparent this information cannot be relied upon. (imo).

Are the PJ still carrying on their investigation?   Is it progressing?  Has anyone had any news of it?   
Additionally, are the SY still  actively investigating   Again, has anyone any news of it?

There are numerous posters with serious investigative skills on this forum.   Surely professional agencies have such people who can evaluate 
the lies, discrepancies and misinformation that appear so obvious?   

I despair, I really do.   Sometimes I am buoyed by what I read here yet it obviously puts the investigation no further forward.   It is like pi**ing in the wind.   Is any of the hard work and research provided by all these committed posters of no consequence ??

O.K.  bit of a frustrated rant.

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Cristobell on 31.07.14 23:03

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Praiaaa wrote:This has probably been said before, but what else could AR have said?
I am sceptical, maybe even cynical,  about the Met and SY, but if the parents were suspects, AR could hardly have said they were. And if he said 'no comment', or fudged it, then this would have been as obvious as saying they were - people would have drawn that conclusion.
Would make sense to say upfront the parents are not suspects, before that question was asked (as it would be) so as not to have to lie on the hoof - much easier to lie in a prepared statement than on the spot when questioned.
And when later it is shown, if it, that it was a lie, so what?
How else could he have dealt with it?
We are forgetting something important here.

That is that DCI Andy Redwood is stuck with his remit.

He was handed that remit before he began to work as Head of Operation Grange. And he accepted it.

After many enquiries, a Freedom of Information Act request revealed that Redwood's remit was: "To investigate the abduction as if it had happened in Britain" (or words to that effect).

He cannot go beyond his remit (PeterMac will confirm), at least not without seeking permission from his seniors to do so, otherwise he could be guilty of misconduct (i.e. not obeying orders).

His remit was given to him by Det Chief Supt Hamish Campbell, and those above him in the Met, the Home Office, and right up to the Prime Minister. Campbell of course will go down in history as the man chiefly responsible for wrongfully convicting Barry Bulsara/George on the sole evidence of one speck of firearms residue 'found' in his coat pocket, a trick pulled by his Senior Investigating Officer, Brian Moore, in Stoke Newington - at that time the most corrupt police force in the country - to convict anothert innocent man.
  
So the questions are:

1. When was that remit agreed?

2. Who decided the remit?

In fact I asked these particular FoI Act questions in late 2011 and they were refused

The remit is plain - to investigate the abduction. No room for manoeuvre at all; it had been decided in advance that Grange would only investigate an abduction.

All those who have thought for 3 years that this is a genuine investigation, looking at all possibilities, should look back again at the remit.

The question is NOT 'How did Madeleine disappear?'

It is: 'Who was the abductor?' - pure and simple.

Followed by: 'What did the abductor do with Madeleine?'

+++++++++++++++++++++++


@ Cristobell

You asked: "What will a whitewash achieve?"

What have whitewashes ever achieved?

The fresh white paint of a cover-up covers up any multitude of ugly and unpleasant sights.

It was a subject on which Christ Himself commented, speaking to the pompous religious hypocrites of His day (Matthew 23 vv 27-8):

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited [whitewashed] sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity".

So it is with any whitewash report, which surely Redwood will make in the next few months.

Outwardly it will seem that he has strained every nerve and muscle to find the truth.

Whereas, with the help of the mainstream media, he will have done his very best to bury it.
With respect your reply is generic Tony, it doesn't address the points I raised.

I am fully aware of the concept of a whitewash, but I never before seen a whitewash conducted in the full glare of publicity. Successful whitewashes never make the news.  By their very nature whitewashes need to be covert, out of public sight and with as few people asking questions as possible. This is the 21st century, a bucket of white paint simply won't do. 

You claim that Scotland Yard's remit is to investigate the case as if it were an abduction and nothing else.  If that is indeed the case, then the outcome they are going for is the public believing the MCanns were not involved.  If that is their ultimate goal, they are going a very strange way about it.  They have ruled out Tanner man and mentioned death and there has been a huge increase in membership of 'anti' groups. 

If Scotland Yard have a remit to clear the McCanns, they would not have embarked on a very public dig for a body while the McCanns were fighting a libel trial in Lisbon that could ruin them.  It could not have assisted their claim that Madeleine was alive and Goncalo Amaral should be punished for claiming she is dead!  No wonder, desperate Gerry was so keen to denounce the evidence of the dogs whilst in the witness box. A loss for the McCanns in the libel trial will not help a whitewash, and indeed it would place a huge question mark over SY's McCanns are innocent verdict.  The ill timed excavations in Portugal by the British police will have done nothing to help their case.  Some might even see it as a deliberate attempt to scupper their claim.  That Kate and Gerry had the bottle to turn up still amazes me.  They spoke about the case, but they didn't mention Scotland Yard assuring them they weren't suspects, which would have really helped in the circumstances.

The abduction story has not been strengthened by the Review of or the Investigation, Tony, it has been weakened.  In fact the number of disbelievers has reached epic proportions (try a quick survey among 'regular' folk), so the whitewash clearly isn't working.  In order to achieve anything in life you have to take the correct steps along the way to accomplish it.  You have to lay foundations, bit by bit, step by step.  There has been no evidence from Scotland Yard that leads us away from the parents.  Nothing tangible for us to say 'ah, it couldn't have been them', so that when they are cleared we will be prepared for it.  They are in fact doing the complete opposite.  The PJ files that could have faded away with time are now public knowledge, as is, Goncalo Amaral's book, The Truth of the Lie.  More people are being informed about the facts of the case.  How will this assist a whitewash?

Scotland Yard's remit (like everything in life) has evolved.

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Re: WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

Post by Tony Bennett on 31.07.14 23:46

daffodil wrote:
I was interested to read your views Cristobell.
What are your opinions on the PJ re-opened investigation?   We know nothing about what is or has been advanced of this.   
Maybe I'm wrong, but I have always considered the SY investigation secondary to the PJ.   
What concerns me is that the general public accept the SY investigation to be the final answer to this poor missing child's disappearance, yet it is only a review of the information available at that time, and it is apparent this information cannot be relied upon. (imo).

Are the PJ still carrying on their investigation?   Is it progressing?  Has anyone had any news of it?

REPLY: In truth, daffodil, there is no evidence whatsoever of the PJ doing anything more than merely going through the motions, just to satisfy the demands of DCI Redwood, his bosses, the British government, and the British media. Indeed, there is plenty of evidence of open antagonism between the two forces, especially from the Portuguese side, which suggests that there is no practical co-operation at all going on.

Except, that is, for Grange asking permission to do this and that in Portugal, and the PJ saying, up to a point: "OK, go ahead, so long as you pay for it all".

Anyone who thinks the PJ investigation is going anywhere is relying purely on hope and belief, not on evidence. 
  

Additionally, are the SY still actively investigating? 

REPLY: Have they ever been? Their greatest triumph to date is Redwood's so-called 'revelation moment' when, so he says, Crecheman came forward, thus killing two birds with a single stone: 1. How to get rid of the embarrassment of Jane Tanner's 'Tannerman', and 2. How to increase the window  of opportunity for the abduction to take place from about 3 minutes to about 50. Look how the BBC and the mainstream press went to town on that one!

Remember CrimeWatch?

"...unprecedented...mass of evidence...top detectives...re-assess and re-analyse everything...thousands of documents examined...full-blown enquiry...painstaking new investigation by Scotland Yard elite detectives...truest account yet...careful and critical analysis...absolutely key...taking nothing for granted...we picked up very quickly...really interesting and exciting...revelation moment...very importantly...the centre of our focus...enormous discovery...key to the entire mystery...the true significance of these images...the efits are clear...exhaustive investigation...really important...third important strand...bringing in new information...making good progress...very important...resonance..."

All these boasts (these are all real quotes from the CrimeWatch Show) and many more were made by Redwood and the Crimewatch Team - and all about what?

The 'discovery' of Crecheman and 2 efits which could not possibly have been drawn up by an Irish family as claimed.   

Again, has anyone any news of it?

There are numerous posters with serious investigative skills on this forum.  Surely professional agencies have such people who can evaluate 
the lies, discrepancies and misinformation that appear so obvious?

REPLY: Yes they have. But it depends on whether Scotland Yard want to use them or not. 

I despair, I really do.   Sometimes I am buoyed by what I read here yet it obviously puts the investigation no further forward.   It is like pi**ing in the wind. Is any of the hard work and research provided by all these committed posters of no consequence??

O.K. - bit of a frustrated rant.

REPLY:  The devastated Hillsborough families had to wait 23 years before the truth was finally opened up by an MP's panel. Members of the Morgan family have not yet got justice for Daniel, killed 27 years ago, although it is now known that his death was covered up by a network of corrupt police officers. It looks like much of the research carried out on this forum is unwanted by the powers-that-be at present. But maybe one day, sooner or later, it will prove to have been useful.

A luta continua

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


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