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Worth re-stating, every so often

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Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by PeterMac on 19.07.14 23:32

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.nl/2007/12/portuguese-priest-ruined-by-mccanns.html
Thursday, December 13, 2007
Portuguese priest 'ruined' by McCanns
The Portugese priest who gave solace to the McCann family after the ‘disappearance’ of their daughter Madeleine has stripped his church of all traces of the girl, with friends saying the experience has left him “ruined”.
The Express reports seven months after the tragedy, Fr Jose Manuel Pacheco ordered the removal of scores of green and yellow ribbons which were put up as a symbol of hope in the days after Madeleine vanished.
Posters and photographs of Madeleine which plastered the village of Praia da Luz have also been removed.
Friends of Fr Pacheco – who came under police scrutiny after he gave the keys to his church to Gerry and Kate McCann to allow them to pray round the clock – say they fear for his health and that his life is now ruined.
Fr Pacheco was questioned twice by detectives, and the church and its grounds were searched by police.
Investigators became convinced Kate had confessed to him – but Fr Pacheco insisted he would stand by his priestly vow.
A close friend of Fr Pacheco said the priest becomes irate at the mention of the Madeleine case and that even close friends must tread carefully when broaching the subject.
“He says that it is an extremely unpleasant situation and that the McCann family only ever brought him problems. He told one friend they ruined his life,” the friend said.
“He just wants to get on with his peaceful life before the McCann whirlwind raped his world. This has all been a very bad experience for him."
Another friend described Fr Pacheco as a “nervous wreck” and that he was “hiding secrets that are destroying him.”

He was of course RC. The other bloke is CoE.
So none of the nonsense about 'confession, absolution, "three Hail Marys and a Paternoster and then that's all OK . . ."

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by maebee on 19.07.14 23:54

No sympathy for him and his "priestly vow". Madeleine needs justice. He could be the one to to give it to her. Coward.

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by unchained melody on 20.07.14 0:03

Redwood needs to question this man. Is a priest above the law?

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by TheTruthWillOut on 20.07.14 0:11

@maebee wrote:No sympathy for him and his "priestly vow". Madeleine needs justice. He could be the one to to give it to her. Coward.

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion quite that quickly. It is the Express and the quotes are from a "close friend".

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by canada12 on 20.07.14 0:30

Is it possible that Kate and / or Gerry confessed "something" to him, and that he gave her/him absolution in the belief that she / he was genuinely contrite and that she / he would follow through by "doing the right thing"?

What they may have confessed may have been an untruth, or not the complete truth, or possibly even the real truth... and the good priest, having witnessed what came after his absolution, may have realized that Kate and Gerry had no intention whatsoever of "doing the right thing."

If Fr Pacheco had truly believed he was dealing with contrite penitents, and if he had genuinely given them absolution based on their confessions, then I can easily see how he would have felt betrayed and tormented.

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by View-from-Ireland on 20.07.14 2:00

@maebee wrote:No sympathy for him and his "priestly vow". Madeleine needs justice. He could be the one to to give it to her. Coward.


Eh , hang on a second. Talk about jumping the gun. 

I really doubt they confessed to him. The 'Catholic thing' was a ploy, I don't think they were in any sense 'devout'.

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by canada12 on 20.07.14 2:08

@View-from-Ireland wrote:
Eh , hang on a second. Talk about jumping the gun. 

I really doubt they confessed to him. The 'Catholic thing' was a ploy, I don't think they were in any sense 'devout'.

Agreed. Then the good priest's devastation (if true) must be because he realized how he may have been an unwitting party to the grand deception. He believed their plight, gave them the key to the church... and they took advantage of him.

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by rainbow-fairy on 20.07.14 2:15

@canada12 wrote:Is it possible that Kate and / or Gerry confessed "something" to him, and that he gave her/him absolution in the belief that she / he was genuinely contrite and that she / he would follow through by "doing the right thing"?

What they may have confessed may have been an untruth, or not the complete truth, or possibly even the real truth... and the good priest, having witnessed what came after his absolution, may have realized that Kate and Gerry had no intention whatsoever of "doing the right thing."

If Fr Pacheco had truly believed he was dealing with contrite penitents, and if he had genuinely given them absolution based on their confessions, then I can easily see how he would have felt betrayed and tormented.
No, I don't think so, canada12. According to the PJ files, he never took a confession from the McCanns - from what I can deduce it seems he didn't even speak English so it is extremely unlikely.

From Fr Pacheco's statement: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FATHER_PACHECO.htm

[mention][/mention] wrote:When questioned, he said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English.

He never talked to them alone.

As the seal of the confessional is completely inviolable, he would have nothing to gain by saying he never took a Confession from them.
Possibly any feelings of 'being deceived' were in the handing over of church keys and whatever may have occurred as a result - it wasn't anything to do with confession, imo

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by tigger on 20.07.14 6:42

I'm surprised he didn't strip the church of all the McCann bunting earlier.

The Vatican removed all traces of the McCanns from their website -iirc- a few days before they were made arguidos.

No flies on the RC  secret  service.  winkwink 

This is an article which must have been translated, my feeling is that particularly 'ruined' is a bad translation.

He was probably in a nice quiet post, regular congregation, occasional visitors and it was suddenly derailed by the TM circus, his church represented as if it belonged  to Father  Hubbard, used to stage the McCann performances. Iirc one mass was even filmed with Kate in shot most of the time.
Kate took full advantage of her starring role and never bothered to assume a decent dress code.
Not only was his church taken away from him, now belonging to TM and the press (Gerry also had  his famous tunnel vision there) - he himself, probably not fond of publicity, was discussed in the press and interviewed.

His church had become a stage for the McCanns to strut their stuff, not a place of worship.

Poor little priest.

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by Guest on 20.07.14 6:57

@View-from-Ireland wrote:
@maebee wrote:No sympathy for him and his "priestly vow". Madeleine needs justice. He could be the one to to give it to her. Coward.


Eh , hang on a second. Talk about jumping the gun. 

I really doubt they confessed to him. The 'Catholic thing' was a ploy, I don't think they were in any sense 'devout'.

Kate's own mother said she and Gerry weren't particularly religious...and she should know.  winkwink 

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by BlueBag on 20.07.14 8:54

I'm sorry, I just can not believe K&G confessed to any priest.

The priest may have suspicions based on other things.

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by Sceptic on 20.07.14 10:08

@View-from-Ireland wrote:
@maebee wrote:No sympathy for him and his "priestly vow". Madeleine needs justice. He could be the one to to give it to her. Coward.


Eh , hang on a second. Talk about jumping the gun. 

I really doubt they confessed to him. The 'Catholic thing' was a ploy, I don't think they were in any sense 'devout'.
I also question how 'devout' they were prior to may 3rd
I feel the answer lies in the question did the mccanns attend mass on Sunday 29th April?

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by Monty Heck on 20.07.14 10:21

@BlueBag wrote:I'm sorry, I just can not believe K&G confessed to any priest.

The priest may have suspicions based on other things.

Confession does seem unlikely given the language issue, however he may have seen KMcC in one of her vulnerable moments and the truth began to dawn?  Some things transcend language.  In any case Fr P probably had plenty to be suspicious about:

  • a supposedly devout Catholic couple who he must have quickly realised weren't
  • a couple who cynically used the church and both Catholic and Anglican congregations as a media backdrop
  • a couple who brought over an army of supporters who ended up sitting around the OC pool because nobody seemed to know what to do with them
  • a couple who jogged and played tennis and went on fun family days out when their child had just gone missing
  • a couple who happily dressed up and posed for media photoshoots and gave interviews
  • a couple who went off travelling to bizarre locations leaving their remaining two children behind, when their eldest child could have been discovered in the local area at any time
  • a couple who claimed their apartment had been broken which turned out to be untrue and, ultimately
  • a couple who were declared arguido after an intensive ongoing investigation by the PJ and LC, using UK police sniffer dogs and UK forensics lab

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by Enid O'Dowd on 20.07.14 10:50

@Sceptic wrote:
@View-from-Ireland wrote:
@maebee wrote:No sympathy for him and his "priestly vow". Madeleine needs justice. He could be the one to to give it to her. Coward.


Eh , hang on a second. Talk about jumping the gun. 

I really doubt they confessed to him. The 'Catholic thing' was a ploy, I don't think they were in any sense 'devout'.
I also question how 'devout' they were prior to may 3rd
I feel the answer lies in the question did the mccanns attend mass on Sunday 29th April?

Did the McCanns attend mass on Sunday? 

Pages 49-55 of Kate's ' an account of the truth (Irish paperback edition) cover what the family did on Sunday April 29 in detail but no mention of attending mass. Or indeed no mention why they didn't.

At the welcome meeting on Saturday, they would have been told about mass times or if the MW representative didn't mention it, they could have asked. And, literature provided by any holiday company on your arrival normally includes information about the local churches and service/mass times as well as all the usual information about bank, supermarket etc opening hours and location.

I find it odd that mass isn't mentioned. Why not say for example 'we wanted to go to mass as we always do at home but the children were enjoying themselves so much and didn't want to go. They are so young and wouldn't have understood anything. it being all in Portuguese. Rather than have them get bored in the church and spoil it for other people we decided not to go. I knew God would understand.' 

They definitely did attend after Madeleine disappeared. The religious brother in law of the assistant in my local chemist was on holiday in PDL at the time and saw them at mass. Small world!

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by Guest on 20.07.14 10:51

I can't see either McCann as devout nor can I see either of them confessing.

I found this http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm:

It is not true that for the Catholic the mere "telling of one's sins" suffices to obtain their forgiveness. Without sincere sorrow and purpose of amendment, confession avails nothing, the pronouncement of absolution is of no effect, and the guilt of the sinner is greater than before.

So, supposing that Kate is devout and did make a confession, she may have had sincere sorrow but she has not put things right (purpose of amendment) so the absolution had no effect and her guilt is greater than before.

If Kate goes to confession without fully revealing her sins with regard to Madeleine, the fund etc:

Hence, the penitent, who in confession willfully conceals a mortal sin, derives no benefit whatever; on the contrary, he makes void the sacrament and thereby incurs the guilt of sacrilege.

Another quick google and I found this http://catholic-church.org/grace/eu/sacri-communion.htm:

Let us not forget what St. Cyril said above: "They who make a sacrilegious Communion receive Satan and Jesus Christ into their hearts - Satan, that they may let him rule, and Jesus Christ, that they may offer Him in sacrifice as a Victim to Satan.

Whichever way you look at it (confession without absolution or incomplete confession and Communion without absolution or no Communion) in the view of  the Catholic church:

as the Lord said above to St. Bridget, "there does not exist on earth a punishment which is great enough to punish it sufficiently!"

The McCanns use catholicism because it suits their purpose not because they believe.

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by Guest on 20.07.14 11:09

Great trauma and distress can make you look to the almighty when you might have been less than devout before. I myself, a former agnostic, now a believer in a greater good but still a non-subscriber to any one religion, have prayed shamelessly around the hospital beds of loved ones. I think if you were aware of religion as a child, and were taught religion at school, it's always there in your head to manifest in times of need.

If Kate was brought up a Catholic, I have no doubt the trauma of the loss of her child, however it happened, would jerk her back to her faith. I imagine she could have wanted to confess, but I still believe the church key is the key to the mystery.

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by Bishop Brennan on 20.07.14 11:09

I wonder if it is related to the story that Amaral broke: an allegation that Maddie's body had been put into a coffin of an elderly PDL resident that was being kept for mourning in his church.  The body of the resident was subsequently cremated.  If there is any truth to that allegation, and if the priest discovered it (or was told about it at the time) then a breakdown of this sort would be entirely understandable...  

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/gerry-kate-mccann-furious-claims-3707478


ETA: And of course, in order to carry out such an act, the person would have required a key to the church at night.


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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by Guest on 20.07.14 11:17

@Bishop Brennan wrote:I wonder if it is related to the story that Amaral broke: an allegation that Maddie's body had been put into a coffin of an elderly PDL resident that was being kept for mourning in his church.  The body of the resident was subsequently cremated.  If there is any truth to that allegation, and if the priest discovered it (or was told about it at the time) then a breakdown of this sort would be entirely understandable...  

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/gerry-kate-mccann-furious-claims-3707478


ETA:  And of course, in order to carry out such an act, the person would have required a key to the church at night.

I've always believed she was hidden in the church, or graveyard, either temporarily or permanently. I think the implcation that she could have been cremated there would explain a lot. Would love to know what else Amaral knows about this.

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by Silverspeed on 20.07.14 11:19

Didn't he accuse them of  'An act of the utmost betrayal' at some time.
I've often wondered that if the body was hidden away somewhere and then moved some 3 weeks later or so, could the church have played a part in this.

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Just a quick list of the 7 deadly sins

Post by PeterMac on 20.07.14 11:58

3.1 Lust - "I couldn't make love to Gerry"
3.2 Gluttony - New Zealand wine, then dinner at the expense of the children's security
3.3 Greed - Sue GA for 1.2m
3.4 Sloth - go to sleep or Keep vigil whilst the rest of the resort is searching, doss round the pool for the rest of the week.
3.5 Wrath - F**** t*****
3.6 Envy - I want his money
3.7 Pride - "Ambassador" . . . TV appearances, etc

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by Judex on 20.07.14 12:31

@Sceptic wrote:
@View-from-Ireland wrote:
@maebee wrote:No sympathy for him and his "priestly vow". Madeleine needs justice. He could be the one to to give it to her. Coward.


Eh , hang on a second. Talk about jumping the gun. 

I really doubt they confessed to him. The 'Catholic thing' was a ploy, I don't think they were in any sense 'devout'.
I also question how 'devout' they were prior to may 3rd
I feel the answer lies in the question did the mccanns attend mass on Sunday 29th April?
As I have already pointed out, they could not have attended Mass on 29 April because they still (apparently) had no idea where the church was on the night of 3 May. Gerry was looking for it when he should have been looking for "a little girl who is missing."

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by tigger on 20.07.14 14:22

@PeterMac wrote:3.1 Lust  -  "I couldn't make love to Gerry"
3.2 Gluttony - New Zealand wine, then dinner at the expense of the children's security
3.3 Greed - Sue GA for 1.2m
3.4 Sloth - go to sleep or Keep vigil whilst the rest of the resort is searching, doss round the pool for the rest of the week.
3.5 Wrath   -  F****  t*****
3.6 Envy  -  I want his money
3.7 Pride - "Ambassador" . . . TV appearances, etc

i'm surprised she hasn't entered 3.1 on the list of plaints for the libel trial  as one of the consequences of Amaral's book.  winkwink

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by Casey5 on 20.07.14 14:58

@tigger wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:3.1 Lust  -  "I couldn't make love to Gerry"
i'm surprised she hasn't entered 3.1 on the list of plaints for the libel trial  as one of the consequences of Amaral's book.  winkwink
I'm surprised she would ever want to. big grin

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by MRNOODLES on 20.07.14 17:12

@Monty Heck wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:I'm sorry, I just can not believe K&G confessed to any priest.

The priest may have suspicions based on other things.

Confession does seem unlikely given the language issue, however he may have seen KMcC in one of her vulnerable moments and the truth began to dawn?  Some things transcend language.  In any case Fr P probably had plenty to be suspicious about:

  • a supposedly devout Catholic couple who he must have quickly realised weren't
  • a couple who cynically used the church and both Catholic and Anglican congregations as a media backdrop
  • a couple who brought over an army of supporters who ended up sitting around the OC pool because nobody seemed to know what to do with them
  • a couple who jogged and played tennis and went on fun family days out when their child had just gone missing
  • a couple who happily dressed up and posed for media photoshoots and gave interviews
  • a couple who went off travelling to bizarre locations leaving their remaining two children behind, when their eldest child could have been discovered in the local area at any time
  • a couple who claimed their apartment had been broken which turned out to be untrue and, ultimately
  • a couple who were declared arguido after an intensive ongoing investigation by the PJ and LC, using UK police sniffer dogs and UK forensics lab


IMO it might just be about that.  The Priest quickly sussed that they weren't devout, saw them meeting the Pope etc, and felt they were taking the pee

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Re: Worth re-stating, every so often

Post by PeterMac on 20.07.14 17:51

@BlueBag wrote:I'm sorry, I just can not believe K&G confessed to any priest.
They seem not to have told their immediate close family the truth
They seem not to have told their expensive lawyers the truth - or indeed anything very much if Mrs Martorell's "evidence" is anything to go by -
They seem not to have told the PJ the truth - though it is possible that some of the contradictory statements may turn out to be closer than other contradictory statements.
They seem not to have told various TV interviewers the truth
They seem not to have told Mr Justice Leveson the whole truth
They seem not to have told the court in Portugal the truth
They may or may not have told Mitchell the truth - which may therefore either implicate him in a conspiracy to pervert, or just leave him looking extremely foolish, depending . . .

Why would they start doing so with a Portuguese priest ?

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