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"Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by Okeydokey on 12.10.14 1:05

@kimHager wrote:Totally agree tiredofthebs..a waste of money,time,and energy...looking for Maddy even TM didnt waste resources on looking for her in those critical first hours missing.They knew...and KNOW where Maddy is.
The Met isnt idiots they know as well the outcome

That's right, even though JT claimed to have witnessed the abduction no one she told could be bothered to search in the direction JT said the abductor was walking...er, doesn't that tell you something, whether or not you believe JT.

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by PeterMac on 12.10.14 8:49

@Okeydokey wrote:
@kimHager wrote:Totally agree tiredofthebs..a waste of money,time,and energy...looking for Maddy even TM didnt waste resources on looking for her in those critical first hours missing.They knew...and KNOW where Maddy is.
The Met isnt idiots they know as well the outcome

That's right, even though JT claimed to have witnessed the abduction no one she told could be bothered to search in the direction JT said the abductor was walking...er, doesn't that tell you something, whether or not you believe JT.
Not even her own father.
AND the following morning Gerry did not even bother to tell Kate, but led her on a half hour jog around, but NOT in the direction he had been given . . . .
You could argue that it stinks.
I think it is just so obvious . . .

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by BlueBag on 12.10.14 9:05

I've just been testing this.

From 50 meters, this is what Jane Tanner claimed she saw (hold laptop at arms length for correct scale).



Not your Daily Mirror/Mail closeup pictures nonsense.

THIS is approximately the size of the person in her field of vision.

The lighting wasn't great either.

Now what were the details she picked out?

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by palm tree on 12.10.14 9:15

Remember the couple with child at the Marina, two witnesses (Mr & Mrs Mccloskey I think) described a distressed lady who they believe was km. Only saw back of man, but as he was carrying a motionless child who matched Madeleines description. The man also mentions gm coming of the plane reminded him of the man who carried the child that night? eh
IMO

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by Guest on 12.10.14 12:11

@palm tree wrote:Remember the couple with child at the Marina, two witnesses (Mr & Mrs Mccloskey I think) described a distressed lady who they believe was km. Only saw back of man, but as he was carrying a motionless child who matched Madeleines description. The man also mentions gm coming of the plane reminded him of the man who carried the child that night? eh
IMO

palm tree, do you have a link to these witnesses? Are you saying that they too recognised GM from the plane steps as the man they saw that night/early morning? Like Martin Smith did?

Could they have produced the efits?

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by palm tree on 12.10.14 13:17

Dee Coy, that's what I'm thinking. So sorry I can't link but, go to the George brooks thread and on page 3 there's a link to a newspaper report of the witnesses, by Icarus (I think). Mccluskey is the name but they give a chilling tale of what they saw. Maybe that's part of the files that wasn't released. See what you think.
IMO

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by Guest on 12.10.14 13:46

ETA. This article was published on 8 August 2008.

http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/local/all-news/wear-couple-told-police-we-saw-maddie-1-1152843

This all happened in the early hours of May 5th, 28 hours later.

" Also in his second statement, made after watching news coverage of Kate and Gerry McCann returning to Britain from Portugal, Mr McCluskey added: "Another thing which has played on my mind is the coverage of Mr McCann walking off the aeroplane holding one of his young children."The way he was holding the child over his left shoulder reminded me of the man carrying the child from the white van in Portugal."Although I could not describe the male I'd seen in Portugal because he had his back to me, it was the particular way Mr McCann held the child that made me think." " eek

And:
"
"In my original statement I described a distressed female who ran down a road towards a white van I had described."Having viewed news footage of Mrs McCann I am now almost certain she is the female I described as being in a distressed state."I say this because of her slight build, high cheekbones and her eyes and hairstyle."He added: "I've agonised for days over whether or not to contact police about this because it is a terrible thing to accuse somebody of."
"

Echos of the emotional dilemma some attribute to the Smiths.

And:

"However, two strikingly similar e-fit pictures of suspects given to police in the first week of the hunt for Maddie were never made public."


As well as not being certain of the provenance of the 'Smithman' efits, is there any documentation stating exactly when they were created?

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by Guest on 12.10.14 13:53



Faye Dunnaway and Kate McCann.

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by j.rob on 12.10.14 13:59

The Scotland Yard team remains in place with 30 officers and an open cheque book, but with such resources in place for a cold case investigation in a foreign country, and only 7 officers are working on the historical abuse allegations involving hundreds of children and ten and tens of abusers around high society and political circles in Westminster, that situation is unlikely to last.

Simply one can not compare the cases but you can compare the resources and it is too disproportionate to sustain itself now that the Westminster historical allegations, have taken off.

Although centered around the Houses of Parliament, it is shortly to hit the elite in Scottish judicial and political circles as a ex-senior Police officer is due to go public on concerns that dramatic and explosive allegations he found in one house search was sidelined. 



I think if you 'read between the lines' with this article. I think what it is saying is that the Madeleine McCann case is one case of child (abuse) whereas there are hundreds of other cases. This one case has generated a massive amount of resources (for a cover-up). But now that the lid is about to blow on hundreds of other cases in high society and political circles, the resources required (for the cover-up) are simply not justified.

That's how I read it. 

The Madeleine McCann case was the tip of the ice-berg.

IMO of course.

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by palm tree on 12.10.14 14:03

So confusing, but this is the McCann case. Yesterday on Twitter, someone had posted the Smithman efit along side an artist impression of a female with blonde hair, does anyone know anything about this? I have looked but found nothing. The two efits together look  like gm and km, that it's scary.
IMO

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by j.rob on 12.10.14 14:05

Dee Coy wrote:http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/local/all-news/wear-couple-told-police-we-saw-maddie-1-1152843

This all happened in the early hours of May 5th, 28 hours later.

" Also in his second statement, made after watching news coverage of Kate and Gerry McCann returning to Britain from Portugal, Mr McCluskey added: "Another thing which has played on my mind is the coverage of Mr McCann walking off the aeroplane holding one of his young children."The way he was holding the child over his left shoulder reminded me of the man carrying the child from the white van in Portugal."Although I could not describe the male I'd seen in Portugal because he had his back to me, it was the particular way Mr McCann held the child that made me think." " eek

And:
"
"In my original statement I described a distressed female who ran down a road towards a white van I had described."Having viewed news footage of Mrs McCann I am now almost certain she is the female I described as being in a distressed state."I say this because of her slight build, high cheekbones and her eyes and hairstyle."He added: "I've agonised for days over whether or not to contact police about this because it is a terrible thing to accuse somebody of."
"

Echos of the emotional dilemma some attribute to the Smiths.

And:

"However, two strikingly similar e-fit pictures of suspects given to police in the first week of the hunt for Maddie were never made public."


As well as not being certain of the provenance of the 'Smithman' efits, is there any documentation stating exactly when they were created?


Wow! So have the media fabricated the 'child-less couple' scenario as a cover for this sighting??

What about the bruises all over Kate's hands and wrists that she writes about in her book? How and when were they sustained?

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by joyce1938 on 12.10.14 14:26

I have memory ,not certain its to do with this sighting ,but a couple I believe were interviewed over being in a certain place with small girl . it appeared that it was parents of the child  wish I had clearer recollection ,it was spoken about before ,not sure where maybe someone else has a memory ?  joyce1938

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by Hongkong Phooey on 12.10.14 15:35

Iirc, this was a Polish couple with their child identified by the PJ and dismissed. What is interesting is the Gerry coming off the plane statement is almost exactly the same as Martin Smiths. Mr Mcclusky identified KM as well though (having seen a couple rather than MS's loan abductor)

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by PeterMac on 12.10.14 18:33

Had a vision / dream last night. Played Cluedo till 4am with OG

It was Flatman,
in the apartment
behind the sofa
with a toothbrush

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by Hobs on 12.10.14 18:42


This is one

Or this one


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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by Woofer on 12.10.14 18:44

@joyce1938 wrote:I have memory ,not certain its to do with this sighting ,but a couple I believe were interviewed over being in a certain place with small girl . it appeared that it was parents of the child  wish I had clearer recollection ,it was spoken about before ,not sure where maybe someone else has a memory ?  joyce1938
McClusky statements :-
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RI_Mc.htm

The woman could not speak English so it couldn`t have been KM

It was dismissed by the PJ - the couple were Ukrainian.

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by Hobs on 12.10.14 19:01

The childless couple scenario just isn't remotely plausible.

Why abduct a child when there are so many options from IVF in its various types through surrogacy through to adoption and fostering?
All the above are legal and there would be no reason not to hide the child away.

Why would a childless couple abduct or cause to have abducted a nearly 4 year old child who can walk and talk, who would have to be smuggled ourt the country, who could never be shown in public, never go to school, visit a hospital or dentist etc?
Why if anything, not take one of the younger children,  less talkative and who could possibly be explained away as an adoption if discovered?

Childless coupless invariably, it is the woman, will abduct a newborn or a preborn in some cases.
They often have a history of infertility or misccariage or still birth
They will go as far as faking a pregnancy in order to facilitate their plan.
Come the day they decide on they will abduct a newborn from a hospital maternity unit or, in worst cases, their victims home, kill the mom and removed the child from their womb.

They will turn up at homeclaiming they have just given birth and  revealing the new baby,claiming it as their own.
They will have no scans of their own, no record of pregnancy, no visits to hospital during the birth or soon after, all of which are par for the course in a normal birth when the immdiate family come and visit.

They are soon caught out when a suspicious family member reports the mother and their suspicions, the mother realizes baby's are selfish demanding buggers  not all quiet and happy as per the ads.

Desperate wanna be moms will abduct the child they believe they can pass off as their own, it is hard to pass off a nearly 4 yr old as a newborn  even with being overdue.

It isn't plausible, it's not remotely believeable, it smacks of desperation when such a scenario is introduced.

Nearly 4yr old missing children are either a victim of their own parents neglect/abuse deliberate or otherwise or a victim of a family member or, more rarely, a sexual predator, in which case they are usually found dead within a matter of hours.

There is no evidence to indicate anyone broke into the apartment and abducted maddie.
There is evidence of a death and subsequent clean up in the apartment.
There is evidence of blood, cadaverine in the apartment and cadaverine and body fluids in the hire car.
There is evidence of cadaverine on certain personal items of kate mccann, a child's t shirt and cuddlecat/

In all such cases, the parents  are the prime suspects and need to be cleared before the investigation moves on to the next circle of suspects.
In some cases depending on crime , location alibi, this is instant, in others it may take a few hours or days (especially if there are family issues such as divorce etc)
next in line are those who had access to the missing person such as family members, neighbors, family friends and so on.

The parents have  not been cleared and due to their own language and behavior, cannot be cleared.
This is the downside to not co-operating.
if you don't co-operate, you cannot be cleared and questioons arise as to why you won't co-operate and what you are hiding.

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by j.rob on 12.10.14 20:40

@Woofer wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:I have memory ,not certain its to do with this sighting ,but a couple I believe were interviewed over being in a certain place with small girl . it appeared that it was parents of the child  wish I had clearer recollection ,it was spoken about before ,not sure where maybe someone else has a memory ?  joyce1938
McClusky statements :-
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RI_Mc.htm

The woman could not speak English so it couldn`t have been KM

It was dismissed by the PJ - the couple were Ukrainian.

Oh well!

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by Guest on 12.10.14 20:52

Although the PJ dismissed the couple as being from the Ukraine, this was in May 2007, it is some months after that after watching news footage of the McCanns culminating in the iconic 'coming down the plane steps' that the McCluskeys became convinced that the couple were the McCanns.

In fact, from the PJfiles, Mr McCluskey said:

Having viewed recent media coverage regarding the investigation, M, McClusky now states that the female he saw and described is Mrs. McCann( the missing child?s mother). He states he is "almost certain" that they are the same person and has agonised for days over what to do and whether to contact Police. He is acutely aware of the possibly implications of his account. When asked why there had been such a time lapse in him making this "identification" he explained it as follows:Mr. McCluskey states the thought had never crossed his mind that a child's parents could be implicated in such a matter. Media coverage over the past week or so has cased him to take a renewed interest in the case. The only thing which prevents Mr. McCluskey from stating he in 100% certain in his "identification" is the fact that he would , in his words, " hate to incriminate and innocent person."

He said this some 4 months after the PJ's elimination. Can we be certain the PJ identified and eliminated the right couple?

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by j.rob on 16.10.14 17:49

Dee Coy wrote:Although the PJ dismissed the couple as being from the Ukraine, this was in May 2007, it is some months after that after watching news footage of the McCanns culminating in the iconic 'coming down the plane steps' that the McCluskeys became convinced that the couple were the McCanns.

In fact, from the PJfiles, Mr McCluskey said:

Having viewed recent media coverage regarding the investigation, M, McClusky now states that the female he saw and described is Mrs. McCann( the missing child?s mother). He states he is "almost certain" that they are the same person and has agonised for days over what to do and whether to contact Police. He is acutely aware of the possibly implications of his account. When asked why there had been such a time lapse in him making this "identification" he explained it as follows:Mr. McCluskey states the thought had never crossed his mind that a child's parents could be implicated in such a matter. Media coverage over the past week or so has cased him to take a renewed interest in the case. The only thing which prevents Mr. McCluskey from stating he in 100% certain in his "identification" is the fact that he would , in his words, " hate to incriminate and innocent person."

He said this some 4 months after the PJ's elimination. Can we be certain the PJ identified and eliminated the right couple?

Intriguing. But why would he think it was Kate McCann if he heard her speaking Portuguese?

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by j.rob on 16.10.14 17:59

There are some strange parallels here with the Smith statement. The delay in reporting the sighting. Being very sure that the person seen was one of Madeleine's parents. Thinking that the manner in which the man was carrying the child was reminiscent of the way Gerry carried Sean off the plane.

Odd.

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by Guest on 16.10.14 18:41

@j.rob wrote:There are some strange parallels here with the Smith statement. The delay in reporting the sighting. Being very sure that the person seen was one of Madeleine's parents. Thinking that the manner in which the man was carrying the child was reminiscent of the way Gerry carried Sean off the plane.

Odd.

It is these parallels that scream at me and make me consider if this should not have been so easily dismissed at the time.

I can't explain why the 'Kate' lookalike apparently spoke Portuguese. But what we must consider is, even after witnessing her doing so, it is after the event he became convinced of her being Kate, and the man Gerry. It is noteworthy that Mrs McCluskey does not state she heard the woman speaking Portuguese.

In his second statement Mr McCluskey does not say the only thing stopping him from being 100% certain in identifying the parents is not the fact that the woman spoke Portuguese, but that he would hate to incrimiate an innocent person. He knew the impact such an allegation could have if made against the parents themselves. As did Martin Smith.

Is is possible that, during the dictating and translating of the statements confusion arose and it was actually the Portuguese woman speaking that language? Mrs McCluskey states the Portuguese man could speak English, does this infer that the Portuguese woman didn't?

I don't know and it could be a stinking red herring, but just how likely is it that yet another motionless blonde 3-4 year-old girl was being carried around in that region by a man resembling Gerry McCann carrying Sean? And this time accompanied by a woman who looked exactly like Kate.

We know that the Ukrainian couple's daughter resembled a larger, rounder-faced Maddie. But there is nothing in the files describing the appearance of the parents. If the mother was the 'spit' of Kate and the father the same physique as Gerry,  wouldn't that have been worthy of note to confirm the authenticity of elimination of the Ukrainians.

Similarly, would it not have been prudent to show the McCluskeys a photo of the Ukrainian couple and ask 'Could these be the people you saw?'.

We know this didn't happen, because after giving their second statements, the McCluskeys were never contacted again.

What did the Ukrainian couple look like?

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Re: "Childless Couple" theory takes lead in Maddie inquiry

Post by j.rob on 16.10.14 22:48

Dee Coy wrote:
@j.rob wrote:There are some strange parallels here with the Smith statement. The delay in reporting the sighting. Being very sure that the person seen was one of Madeleine's parents. Thinking that the manner in which the man was carrying the child was reminiscent of the way Gerry carried Sean off the plane.

Odd.

It is these parallels that scream at me and make me consider if this should not have been so easily dismissed at the time.

I can't explain why the 'Kate' lookalike apparently spoke Portuguese. But what we must consider is, even after witnessing her doing so, it is after the event he became convinced of her being Kate, and the man Gerry. It is noteworthy that Mrs McCluskey does not state she heard the woman speaking Portuguese.

In his second statement Mr McCluskey does not say the only thing stopping him from being 100% certain in identifying the parents is not the fact that the woman spoke Portuguese, but that he would hate to incrimiate an innocent person. He knew the impact such an allegation could have if made against the parents themselves. As did Martin Smith.

Is is possible that, during the dictating and translating of the statements confusion arose and it was actually the Portuguese woman speaking that language? Mrs McCluskey states the Portuguese man could speak English, does this infer that the Portuguese woman didn't?

I don't know and it could be a stinking red herring, but just how likely is it that yet another motionless blonde 3-4 year-old girl was being carried around in that region by a man resembling Gerry McCann carrying Sean? And this time accompanied by a woman who looked exactly like Kate.

We know that the Ukrainian couple's daughter resembled a larger, rounder-faced Maddie. But there is nothing in the files describing the appearance of the parents. If the mother was the 'spit' of Kate and the father the same physique as Gerry,  wouldn't that have been worthy of note to confirm the authenticity of elimination of the Ukrainians.

Similarly, would it not have been prudent to show the McCluskeys a photo of the Ukrainian couple and ask 'Could these be the people you saw?'.

We know this didn't happen, because after giving their second statements, the McCluskeys were never contacted again.

What did the Ukrainian couple look like?


In his second statement Mr McCluskey does not say the only thing stopping him from being 100% certain in identifying the parents is not the fact that the woman spoke Portuguese,




Yes. How peculiar. 

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