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The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Miraflores on 17.07.14 0:07

So either the 'southern English' accent is wrong, or it's not DP who was identified.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 17.07.14 10:08

Ah thank you no fate worse then death.... wow, the eye movement when Gerry spoke suggested he was lying imo, mind you I guess I always find him shifty looking. K also looks uncomfortable, personally I DO believe there was neglect, I do believe the children were left 'home alone', but I have never believed an abduction took place. The cadaver dog (Eddie) indicated when Madelaine was taken from apartment, she had already passed. The idea of a 'burglar' taking Madalaine has always sounded preposterous to me. Burglars are looking to steal valuables, NOT childen. The idea of a burglar killing the child, also preposterous. So I am afraid in my mind the only place to seek out whomsoever made Madelaine disappear from apartment after whatever accident took place, is within the tapas crew, G himself I imagine. The accident, I believe, was the Madelain climbing onto sofa to look out of window(either looking for parents/hearing G voice chatting outside), & from there she fell. Keela detected blood there(behind sofa), & Eddie independently detected cadaver there....
I once saw a video clip (I am subscribed to HiDeHo on You Tube) where G says something like "if she were to have had an accident, how would that be our fault?" !!! I will see if I can find that particular clip, although I am afraid I do not know how to add links here, or even reply to messages using clips of message I replying to *blushes*

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by BlueBag on 17.07.14 12:27

From Gerry's 10th May statement:


The deponent ran to the apartment accompanied by the rest of the group who, at the time, were seated at the table. When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open on one side, the external blinds almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back, MADELEINE'S bed was empty but the twins continued sleeping in their cribs. He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scene that she found when she entered the apartment.
----- Then he closed the external blinds, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside.

"Then he closed the external blinds, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside."


A few things....


Your daughter is missing and your first thought is to test the shutters?


Is it really possible to open them from the outside?


Did he use force?


Oh yeah... "curtains drawn back" just like Kate found them.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by FH on 17.07.14 16:56

@LittleMissy wrote:@searcher, indeed. To be honest, not sure that I buy the every 15 min checks, certainly not on any night prior to the 3rd anyway. Mrs Fenn's statement certainly suggests there were no 15 min checks on 1st May.
Also I recall reading something along lines of Mark Warner staff looking for Mccans 1 night as other guests had complained about crying, seemingly unattended children. Perhaps this was Mrs Fenn who reported it to Mark Warner, although that is a total guess, does anyone remember anything about this ??
LittleMissy

There is a thread on here called Vera from Essex.

someone called Vera from Essex claimed to have been on holiday at OC at the same time with her daughter and granddaughter and claimed to have been at Chaplin's restaurant the night when the McC's were there (maybe 1st May) and although she left Chaplin's before them she claimed to have overheard a conversation the next day at reception about staff having to go to Chaplin's to get the McC's because their children were crying. She hinted she knew what went down "When you do eventually learn of what did happen and what was seen, your jaw will drop down to the ground in complete shock."

Vera claimed she and her daughter had given statements to the police

I think she was discredited - no one called Vera fitting the granny,mum,daughter group at the OC. No statements by a brit called Vera. Posts by a Vera Broughton on other forums etc.

BUT it is possible that Vera was a pseudonym and I can think of one granny who was there with her granddaughter and daughter at that time who might know something.

Google  mccann chaplin's crying warner spokesman  - you will get a lot of hits, but they are just hearsay. It is possible there is info on this (if it even happened) in the unreleased PJ files.  If there is actual hard evidence somewhere of them being at Chaplin's, then it adds to the neglect.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by tigger on 17.07.14 17:35

@FH wrote:
@LittleMissy wrote:@searcher, indeed. To be honest, not sure that I buy the every 15 min checks, certainly not on any night prior to the 3rd anyway. Mrs Fenn's statement certainly suggests there were no 15 min checks on 1st May.
Also I recall reading something along lines of Mark Warner staff looking for Mccans 1 night as other guests had complained about crying, seemingly unattended children. Perhaps this was Mrs Fenn who reported it to Mark Warner, although that is a total guess, does anyone remember anything about this ??
LittleMissy

There is a thread on here called Vera from Essex.

someone called Vera from Essex claimed to have been on holiday at OC at the same time with her daughter and granddaughter and claimed to have been at Chaplin's restaurant the night when the McC's were there (maybe 1st May) and although she left Chaplin's before them she claimed to have overheard a conversation the next day at reception about staff having to go to Chaplin's to get the McC's because their children were crying. She hinted she knew what went down "When you do eventually learn of what did happen and what was seen, your jaw will drop down to the ground in complete shock."

Vera claimed she and her daughter had given statements to the police

I think she was discredited - no one called Vera fitting the granny,mum,daughter group at the OC. No statements by a brit called Vera. Posts by a Vera Broughton on other forums etc.

BUT it is possible that Vera was a pseudonym and I can think of one granny who was there with her granddaughter and daughter at that time who might know something.

Google  mccann chaplin's crying warner spokesman  - you will get a lot of hits, but they are just hearsay. It is possible there is info on this (if it even happened) in the unreleased PJ files.  If there is actual hard evidence somewhere of them being at Chaplin's, then it adds to the neglect.

Happy hour at Chaplins started at 11.00 pm I've read. Tapas closed around that time.  winkwink 

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 18.07.14 15:44

AHA... FH, thank you!!! I am on my way to google.....btw the grandma I would imagine IF vera was a pseudonym, the person with initials DW jumps to mind (all opinion of course, nothing stated as fact) Wink wooooow, oh I have my reading matter for nxt couple hrs sorted thank you FH :)

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 18.07.14 15:56

Does it now Tigger? Wink Oooooh what a coincidence Wink I am now heading off to google....after I shall visit 'vera from essex' here ....

thank u guys :) Wow, there are just soooooo many layers to this case, as yet I have not reached a layer than rkeflects well upon the Mccans, not even the somewhat rehearsed & seemingly scripted 'prepared interviews' that the Mccans gave to garner support/state their abduction palava as 'fact' in collelctive public mind. The deeper I read, the more unpleasant it gets.

Thank u Fh & Tigger, for pointing me in right direction here, I am straight off to research! :)

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Justformaddie on 18.07.14 16:12

I like you LittleMissy, your funny!  flower

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 18.07.14 19:57

:) thank you justformaddie :)

I am hot on the heels of this lead u guys have shone a light on, trying to verify whether the Mc's& cronies were visiting Chaplins for after dinner drinkees, trudging through google seeking clarity, but finding nothing very concrete. But then with all the 'whoosing' goes on not that surprising I guess. Anyhow back to task in hand..... *breathes deeply & prepares to encounter tales from la la land...*

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 19.07.14 11:11

@BlueBag.... yes, G's 1st thought, apparently, on discovering his daughter 'missing' is to test shutter, shutter which, if u believe their narrative, were opened/forced therefore there would be vital evidence on said shutter, the last thing you would do, in my mind, would be tamper with, possibly eradicating forensic evidence of whomsoever took your child. *shakes head* just another thing that makes not a shred of sense if u really had come back to apartment & found your daughter missing.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by BlueBag on 19.07.14 11:17

@LittleMissy wrote:@BlueBag.... yes, G's 1st thought, apparently, on discovering his daughter 'missing' is to test shutter, shutter which, if u believe their narrative, were opened/forced therefore there would be vital evidence on said shutter, the last thing you would do, in my mind, would be tamper with, possibly eradicating forensic evidence of whomsoever took your child. *shakes head* just another thing that makes not a shred of sense if u really had come back to apartment & found your daughter missing.

Yes, rather than go outside and look/run around the immediate area, he chose to first close the shutter go outside and see if you could open it.

That makes absolutely zero sense. 

Just another of those things that make you go hmmm...

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 19.07.14 11:44

Oh I had a most disconcerting experience last night whilst google trawling, I thought I had arrived back here(I was link following;)) the interface looked the same.....but no, after clicking on a couple of forum topics, read a couple of comments, bewilderment followed, real twilight zone territory...... seriously. It was some kind of mccan worshipping forum. Wow, there are clearly pple out there, members of the public(mind you guess it could be run by extended Mccan fam/friends), who are willing to openly support the behaviour & lies of the Mccan tribe. The forum was same blue format, but very definately NOT the same forum. Tbh it looked like nearly every topic had Tony Bennett's name in, in fact my asumption was after 5 mins bewilderment, Tony.....you must be VERY close to the truth if the Mccanites feel the need to have you in nearly every topic heading in their la la land forum Wink Anyhow, back in the real world, where sanity & reason prevail, I am on way to follow the airport bus trail Wink Then I going to see what I can learn about JMG & paperwork she left under sofa (I have wondered about that for a while) Wink *waves*

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by PeterMac on 19.07.14 13:03

@BlueBag wrote:
Yes, rather than go outside and look/run around the immediate area, he chose to first close the shutter go outside and see if you could open it.
That makes absolutely zero sense. 
Just another of those things that make you go hmmm...

Indeed.
The "Abductor might have left a mere 30 SECONDS before, and encumbered with a small child could still have been within, say 200 m of the apartment
Gerry and Kate are both good and fast runners with heaps of stamina, used to very long arduous hill runs, and could have criss-crossed the area in some considerable depth within a few minutes.
Instead of which he wa***s the shutters up and down, and starts behaving like a pantomime Muslim, while she moons around "keeping vigil' , and swearing at little old ladies who might have seen, or heard something, or who might even have taken a small lost child into their personal custody until the parents could be located . . .

In one scenario it makes no sense.
In another scenario it makes perfect sense.
They both knew knew there was no point even pretending to search.
So they all sat round a dining table ripping a child's sticker book into bits and trying to agree on a 'version' of the truth.  But didn't even do that very successfully.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 19.07.14 13:53

Indeed Peter Mac, theoretically speaking, if I returned to my home, where I had left my young children unattended (this is la la land territory, as I have never considered doing such a thing, neither would I), but anyway, in this theroretical situation, I ask myself what would I DO? What action would I take ?? Ok. 1, I would would run(that really is theoretical for me now as MS has stolen that ability from me), anyway, I would mobilise myself around the vicinity, I would knock on every damn door in the block, & the nxt block for that matter, whilst doing so, I would be onto the phone to the police, I mean within 5-10 mins when it became evident my child was not in vicinity. In fact I have on 2 occasions 'lost' a child, but for a few minutes (once at a fair, once at a outdoor famiky event), BOTH occasions I notified police/security IMMEDIATELY (thankfully on both occasions my son was found within 5 minutes), at the fair by a lady with children who saw him & was heading to roadside police when she saw me frantically gesticulating to police & searching my wallet to give police picture of my son....the outdoor event I put a announcement out over a PA system, after notifying security again, my son was found within minutes. My point being really, that I CAN imagine the actions I would take having discovered my child was missing, albeit in slightly different circumstances. FRANTIC, the feeling I can remember, but the actions of the Mccans in immediate aftermath of supposedly discovering Madelaine 'missing' just do not tally with the frantic searching, that happens when you really do find yourself separated from your child in a crowd for instance.
Along the same lines, I read that when the neighbour Mrs Fenn, enquired, over her balcony, at what was happening, Gerry replied, that a 4 yr old had disappeared. Hmmmm. Not "OMG, my daughter has disappeared, have you seen/heard anything tonight??" That would have been MY immediate question.... K staying within the apartment whilst locals & tourists searched strikes me as, well abnormal, it is NOT the behaviour of a frantic mother who has no idea where her daughter is.... This is all opinion, I realise my couple mins frantically seeking my own child is a completely different set of circumstances than those under which Madelaine disappeared. I was merely chewing over, typing as I think, as I so often do, about WHY I found K's lack of physical searching so damn odd.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Guest on 19.07.14 14:06

LittleMissy, IMO K didn't search because she knew that MBM wasn't abducted and she didn't wander off.  Although, I feel, she could have made some effort at pretending to search.  I wonder if she and G needed to stay close to the apartment in order to maintain some control over the situation.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 19.07.14 14:08

As a matter of interest, do you know whether K/G did knock on neighbours to see if they had heard/seen anything at all on that night ??
I believe I read they knocked on JW, but seemingly did not request he join the 'search'. Again, if I was in that position, I would be knocking on every door anywhere near..... I would accept EVERY single offer of help, be it searching/child protection officers (I thinking Yvonne Martin), I just do not get it, if the Mccans genuinely came back to apartment to discover their daughter had 'vanished' why the hell did they stay inside apartment, where the daughter clearly could not be found ??? That is not explicable to me if they really had come back to apartment to find her vanished. I cannot get past the 'non searching' element. I really can't. The only way I can understand the non searching by the parents (& their rebuffal of well intentioned offers of help, for that matter) is if they knew there was no point in searching because Madelaine really was gone (by gone, I am afraid I mean passed away). This is only opinion, I do not state as fact, simply comparing Mccans behaviour when discovering their child missing, with memory of my own frantic searching when I was separated from 1 of my childen , albeit momentarily.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 19.07.14 14:17

Peter Mac, yes, I am afraid, I do agree with you. As I say the 'non searching' element, for me I cannot get past it. It defies reason. The only way the non searching makes sense, is if K/G knew damn well there was no longer a living child to search for.
Yes, also makes sense Peter, when you suggest G stays on hand in apartment to 'coordinate' as it were, now we know damn well it was certainly NOT a search G was coordinating.....but perhaps.....just perhaps G was engaged in other manipulative endeavours that evening.....there has been more spin than a spinning top that pair Wink

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 19.07.14 14:25

Ahhhh Lady inred, I mistakenly attributed your comment to Peter, apologies, I agree, non searching makes sense ONLY if the parents knew any search would be futile :/

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 19.07.14 14:29

Lady in red the comment above the 1 I just wrote to you, was in response to your comment that I wrongly attributed to Peter Wink yes G stayed close to apartment to run the operation.....not a search operation evidently, but some kind of covert operation, making sure everyone was playing their roles.....some playing bigger roles than others Wink

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Guest on 25.07.14 12:01

Why did KM feel the need to announce to the Tapas table on 3rd May that they had left the patio doors open that night for Madeleine? And be worried if it was the right thing to do?
ROB knew that the door was already unlocked from the Sunday. He'd entered the flat for a "check". 

Russell O'Brien's Rogatory interview 10 April 2008 Hours 8.59am:


  "And then on Sunday ‘I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s and my recollection is that I needed Matt’s key to check on their room and I had it, but I didn’t need Kate and Gerry’s key because they went through the patio door’, erm, we went through the patio door to cross in and look into the children’s bedroom.  So, at the time, I have to say, I didn’t really think that, you know, about the differences in how, in how we were, the security in the, in the rooms was, but, erm, I definitely did not go in through Gerry’s and Kate’s main, you know, double locked door or anything, I’m sure I went through the patio, so I think they were doing things differently from Matt and Rachael, at least from the ground floor perspective, right from the word go”.

Russell O'Brien's interview 11th May 2007:


"- Because he is asked, states that he went to the apartment of the McCann couple once but does not remember if he was asked to go or went of his own accord. He furthers that he did not know if the glass sliding doors were locked or not but that probably Gerry told him on this night to enter his apartment to check on the children. "

This (red) is worrying.
So he is not sure if he just wandered into the flat, where 3 children he barely knew were sleeping, without the permission of the parents.
And if he was not asked to go how did he know the patio doors would be open? He had no reason to be skulking the back trying the patio doors. He entered his flat from the front.
So he must have known the doors were open.

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