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The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by suzyjohnson on 16.07.14 14:39

@LittleMissy wrote:@Suzyjohnson....ahhhh I must admit my ignorance to Mrs Fenn stating that the crying ceased when she heard the patio doors being opened , although I have read of the crying which gradually became a more distressed cry over course of about 75 mins, if my memory serves me well, which in honesty it does not always! Long story, anyhow, this is very interesting, because, obviously Mrs Fenn was a INDEPENDANT witness & we all know there are very few of those in this case! Anyhow, Suzy as you rightly surmise, the crying stopping as patio doors opened(which could ONLY be locked from inside the apartment) This suggests that they did indeed leave the patio doors on previous nights...That is a gem of information Suzy....points to Mccans leaving kids numerous nights with patio doors open, well they certainly did the night Mrs Fenn heard them return, & it seems on the 3rd also, however the detail of the 3rd is highly contentious I know. Now what has just occured to me, is that Kate supposedly mentioned to FP that she was slightly concerned that they had left patio doors that evening, but Gerry had said it was fine....which gives impression it was first time they had done so. Yet i have just learnt that Mrs Fenn heard them return on a previous night through those very patio doors that coukd only be locked from inside.....HMmmmmm my personal opinion is that they were fearful of neglect charges, or other unpleasant repercussions for themselves, so was born the "first time they had left the patio doors open" All this of course, is just my opinion Wink

Well that's certainly how I see the Mrs Fenn evidence, LittleMissy, that a crying child stopped crying as soon as her parents arrived back. And that was Mrs Fenn's interpretation of events at the time.

Although I just wanted to mention that others on here have suggested that perhaps Madeleine stopped crying when somebody left via the patio doors instead, IMO a less likely explanation, because in my experience of children they will just keep on crying until help arrives. And the distraction of having their parents arrive back (in the room, in the apartment) would be enough for a child to stop crying immediately .... that's how it seems to me anyway. 

For Madeleine to have heard those patio doors opening on the Tuesday night, I wonder if she would be able to hear them from the bedroom or if she was already in the lounge / wandering around the apartment?

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by jeanmonroe on 16.07.14 15:42

Trish Cameron -
Gerry McCanns sister, said she received a telephone call from her 39-year-old brother, a consultant cardiologist, who was "hysterical and crying his eyes out".

She said: (AND ON VIDEO, all 'saved') "They last checked at half past nine and they were all sound asleep, sleeping, windows shut, shutters shut.
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I keep bringing this 'point' up.

How could they be all asleep, sleeping, windows shut, shutters shut, AT 9:30pm, 3rd May 2007, when J Tanner 'saw' Madeleine, (because of her pyjamas) being 'carried off' at 9:15/20pm, 3rd May 2007?

Perhaps the 'burglator' went BACK to 5A to 'smash, break, jemmy' the shutters 10 or 15 minutes AFTER he had 'carried' Madeleine off!

McCanns are still displaying JT's 'Tannerman' on their website so obviously are still sticking rigidly to the TIME she 'saw' the 'abductor' that night.

10 or 15 minutes BEFORE he, she, they, went back, AFTER 9:30pm, according to truthful Trish, to 'smash, break, jemmy' the shutters of apartment 5A.

Wouldn't all that 'smashing, breaking, jemmying' the shutters have woken up ALL the THREE kids sleeping in the apartment at HALF past NINE, according to truthful Trish?

Well TWO kids anyway, as the third child had been 'abducted' 10/15 minutes EARLIER according to the McCanns and 'eagle eyed' J Tanner!

OUCH!,................. a flying pig has just hit me upside my head.!

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by tigger on 16.07.14 16:16

@jeanmonroe

Just answered your post here on the shutters topic, changing is really hard on iPad so-  winkwink sorry!

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 17:19

@SuzyJohnson, Agree. Children of that age will cry, often, until attended to by parents..... Certainly in such a scenario as we have here, ie any child who woke, & in case of Madelaine who, we surmise both from the 'reward chart for sleeping through night without coming into parents bed' in Rothley & K immediately checking whether Madelaine had gone to parents bed in PDL, suggests Madelaine was a child who woke at night, in fact woke & ventured from her bed....So figures that Madelaine would have realised parents were not in apartment when she woke (this certainly figures for 1st May & fits with the ever more distressed child Mrs Fenn heard). No wonder Mrs Fenn was concerned by the crying. Does beg the question though, how on earth could they know for CERTAIN that Madelaine had not wandered out of apartment ????

Also related to Mrs Fenn, is it true Kate was rather rude about Mrs Fenn in her book ?? Is it Mrs Fenn she describes as having a "plummy voice"?? I must admit I have not read said book, I have seen very short passages, indeed the "her perfect genitals torn apart" is one such example I have seen. Must admit that very sentence put me off seeking out a copy, well that & my disinclination to buy a book which the Mccans profit from. But I suppose loaning book from library would not add to Mccan coffers & may indeed provide me with further insight into the Mccans & their behaviour, behaviour that, to say the very least, has been bizarre from the start.....

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by comperedna on 16.07.14 18:12

Yes Mrs Fenn was described as having 'a plummy voice' - obviously that, by virtue of inverted snobbery, was supposed to have put her beyond the pale. Yvonne Martin was not named, but was clearly identifiable, and described as being the worse for drink!  I did buy the book. It was hard to wade through. The photos told me more, and made me feel sad. I have bought most books going on the case... but not Amaral's which I have read in the excellent online translation - by Annaesse, I think.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Guest on 16.07.14 18:15

I think that the unnamed woman who smelt of alcohol and cigarettes was someone other than Yvonne Martin. Perhaps someone who has the book can confirm this.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by comperedna on 16.07.14 18:25

It was a social worker who had experience of child abduction and who offered to help Kate, but was rebuffed as a nosey parker and a drunk.  I will look it up again, but I thought it referred to her.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Guest on 16.07.14 18:32

I thought it was Mrs Martin too but I can definitely recall someone saying that it was a different person. If I'm wrong, I shall plead insanity due to the heat!

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 18:43

@Hicks, ahhh thank you, interesting indeed. As you say, if Madelaine did meet her fate BEFORE 3rd May (the contentious 'last picture' being a pointer to that particular possibility) then caniving Clarence being in PDL on the 3rd (ultra quick cover up operation ensues) is very poignant. But as you say with so much being 'whoosed' away, it is hard to clarify this.
You know, all this 'whooshing' & unarguably 'special treatment' the Mccans have recieved, it really does make me err on side of believing they have Goverment backing/support. Although quite how, or indeed WHY, is another mystery. Why do people in high places support the Mccans??? Was it a case that they took them at face value without looking at details of case? Once they had initially supported them was it too embarrassing/raise too many questions for them to back away ??? Still does not explain why they had the backing in first place though :/

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Middle-aged ladies bothering Kate...

Post by missbeetle on 16.07.14 18:46

At some point, Emma Knights, the Mark Warner customer-care manager, came in and sat on the bed near me. She was very nice and tried her best to comfort me, but my grief was so agonizing and so personal that I wasn’t sure whether I wanted her there or not. I didn’t really want anyone around me but people I knew well. Another British woman, in her late forties or early fifties, turned up on our veranda at one point and kept trying to put her arm round me. She was quite drunk and smelled of cigarettes and I remember willing her to go away.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1121-1125). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

(Booze-and-fags lady, night of disappearance)

Not having slept for some twenty-six hours I was starting to feel quite jaded but my mind was teeming with horrific images. A middle-aged British lady suddenly materialized beside me and introduced herself. She announced that she was, or had been, a social worker or child protection officer and insisted on showing me her professional papers, including, I think, her Criminal Records Bureau certificate . She asked me to sit down on a low wall, plonked herself next to me and told me she wanted me to go through everything that had happened the previous night. She was quite pushy and her manner, her very presence, were making me feel uncomfortable and adding to my distress.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1283-1288). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

(Yvonne Martin, next morning)

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Searcher on 16.07.14 18:46

Interesting thread.  I wonder too, if there has ever been one interviewer, or journalist, who has asked the McCanns the simple question -

"Is it true that you left your children unattended for at least 75 minutes, the time during which the neighbour, Mrs. Fenn, testified to hearing a child crying, alone, in your apartment for that period of time? How does this relate to you or a member of your group checking 'every fifteen minutes'?" 

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 18:48

Right, the past few comments have made up my mind, soon as legs are up to it, off to the library I go & get this book.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 19:02

@searcher, indeed. To be honest, not sure that I buy the every 15 min checks, certainly not on any night prior to the 3rd anyway. Mrs Fenn's statement certainly suggests there were no 15 min checks on 1st May.
Also I recall reading something along lines of Mark Warner staff looking for Mccans 1 night as other guests had complained about crying, seemingly unattended children. Perhaps this was Mrs Fenn who reported it to Mark Warner, although that is a total guess, does anyone remember anything about this ??

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 19:20

@missbeetle, ah thank you. Wow. So a lady tries to comfort Kate, who 'wills her to go away' Then a social worker/child protection officer (Yvonne Martin) k describes as "pushy in her manner" & "her very presence, were making me feel uncomfortable & adding to my disress". Hmmmm, Yvonne Martin wanted details of 3rd May, K did really not wish to give such details.....we can only guess at K's reasons for rebuffing a child protection officer well intentioned offer of help. I did read that Yvonne Martin had stated that she tried to speak to K alone & suggested they go inside, I believe K resisted this quite aggressively. yeah, I bet she did. K did not want to be questiontioned on the details. Just like she did not want to answer a certain 48 questions the PJ put to her. Her silence spoke louder than any words ever could. As did her lack of physical searching in those early hours/days.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Casey5 on 16.07.14 20:00

@LittleMissy wrote: I did read that Yvonne Martin had stated that she tried to speak to K alone & suggested they go inside, I believe K resisted this quite aggressively.  yeah, I bet she did. K did not want to be questiontioned on the details.

LittleMissy,
This might be of some interest to you. The third man is David Payne

[color:2cd4=000000][size=13][color:2cd4=000000][size=13][color:2cd4=000000]http://www.mccannfiles.com/id236.html
Report on Yvone Martin's initial conversations with the PJ PJ Files

Processos Volume IX
Pages 3422 - 3424

SERVICE INFORMATION

Date: 2007 – 06 - 12

To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation, Dr. Gonçalo Amaral

From: José Monteiro, Inspector

Re: Collection of Information

In the sequence of information transmitted to this Police force, on this date we went to the residence of Yvonne Warren Martin. The team was composed of the undersigned and his colleague Carlos Antunes, in conversation with Yvone the following was established:

- On May 04, 2007, at around 07H00 she heard about the disappearance of an English girl from Praia da Luz, Lagos, from Sky News or BBC.

- Having worked for 25 years in the area of child protection, she felt obliged to offer help to her compatriots and went to Praia da Luz.

– At around 09H00, she met the McCann couple next to the apartment from where the child had disappeared, accompanied by a third person, a male, who seemed quite familiar to her.

- This third person of the group appeared to be an intimate (friend) of the family as he was the one who, when the media arrived, began to explain what was happening and answering questions, thereby saving the couple from this upset. Afterwards, she further confirmed his closeness to the family when she saw him taking care of the couple's twins, also small children.

- She identified herself and presented her credentials and immediately began talking to the mother of the missing child as she was visibly upset with the situation.

- During the conversation the mother told her that she did not understand why a couple had abducted her daughter.

- However, the third individual overheard this conversation and interrupted Ms. Martin and took the McCann couple away from her.

- This same individual came shortly afterwards to tell her that the couple did not want to talk to her any further and did not require her help—an action that appeared quite strange to her.

- Meanwhile, she heard comments next to the complex reception that the British Consul was coming to the site and she decided to wait for this person in order to offer her help.

- During this time, she saw the third individual two more times. Firstly, when he was accompanying an older woman and the McCann twins, demonstrating in this way, the trust that the couple had in him by letting him take care of their two children. On the second occasion, he accompanied what appeared to her to be plain clothed police officers.

--YVONNE describes the third individual as follows:

Aged about 35 years
Of about 1,80 metres in height
Of normal physical appearance
Having short, dark hair
Using graduated glasses of small dimensions with rectangular lenses
Having a round face
Presenting a scar above his eyebrow and on his left cheek
Speaking with a Southern English accent
Wearing light trousers, cream or beige coloured, and a dark polo shirt.

– When she was back home, following the case on English television, she saw the same individual and this time, her initial doubt faded and she concluded that she had seen the face in the course of her professional activity in child protection, not being able to discern if he was a suspect/arguido or witness

- She clarifies that she is capable of making a photographic identification of the individual, and emphasises that with the identified photo it is possible to access the database of the British Police and ascertain whether the individual is related to any crimes involving children

Bringing this to your attention,

Signed

José Monteiro
Report on Yvone Martin's initial conversations with the PJ PJ Files
[/size]

[/size]

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 20:40

Oooooooh wow, Casey thank you :) So Yvonne states K tells her "she cannot understand why a couple have abducted her daughter" *open mouth* wow. DP overhears this & ushers K away, & returns after short whispered discussion K, G & DP, DP tells Yvonne Martin her help is not required & K does not wish to speak to her further *alarm bells ringing so loud they becoming deafening*

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 20:46

*waves red flag* Erm, hang on....Yvonne asks how often childen were checked on.....& was told every hour !!!!!!!!! Erm..... so when EXACTLY did 1 hourly checks become every 15 minutes?? Wooow. Oh my. Had never read that particular statement before. Wow.
Has anyone any idea WHEN they changed from hourly to 15 minutes in their checking children story??

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 21:05

Reading from your link Casey, DP popping up again. Like a bad penny. Whatever really happened, whatever the real truth is, sounds like DP is in the know. He certainly knew enough to intervene when Yvonne Martin was asking perfectly reasonable questions.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Guest on 16.07.14 21:22

The checks were every 30 minutes according to Gerry himself here!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3eAJnjiD6g

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Miraflores on 16.07.14 21:37

My only problem with that is, that if it's DP speaking on the video of the airport bus, then he speaks with a north-west accent, not southern English.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Guest on 16.07.14 21:39

It has to be his voice on the video - he was the only man in the group apart from Gerry.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by soundworks on 16.07.14 21:52

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:It has to be his voice on the video - he was the only man in the group apart from Gerry.
and do we know that?

we have only been told by the mccanns that they were the only people there

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David Payne's accent...

Post by missbeetle on 16.07.14 21:53

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:It has to be his voice on the video - he was the only man in the group apart from Gerry.

David Payne was born in Preston.

I believe his mother Diane lived in Rochdale.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by Guest on 16.07.14 21:54

They are the only ones we see in the video, Soundworks.

The other couples flew from Gatwick, if I remember rightly.

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Re: The infamous unlocked door "in case of fire" .....

Post by soundworks on 16.07.14 21:57

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:They are the only ones we see in the video, Soundworks.

The other couples flew from Gatwick, if I remember rightly.
yea i know what you mean, i just dont trust one word that the tapas 9 say and i still think there was somebody else there that is/ are being protected

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