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LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by comperedna on 24.07.14 18:03

The thing about Tony Bennett's presentations, eg the 50 reasons booklet, which I have, and have read is that they are relentless and unignorable. NO individual fact or observation has not been collected or noted by others, but he collects together ALL the details and presents, them all together. None of them would worry the Mccanns too much individually, but taken as a collectivity, they are DEVASTATING... stunning in their effect.

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by ultimaThule on 25.07.14 1:14

@PeterMac wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:Just thinking aloud, would they be able to sue if a faithful copy of the police files, translated into English, was published?

They had a go at TB for publishing the Madeleine McCann case files Part one, which was nothing more than some of the statements made by various of the dramatis personae.
There was no commentary, no observations, no interpretation.
My recollection is that his honour Mr Justice Tugendhat made some remark to the effect that "facts in themselves can be defamatory" which seems, with respect 'ludicrous", but may be an accurate statement of English law.
What, though, is the situation where we have more than one simultaneous "fact"
Curtains wide open AND tight closed.
How would his Honour deal with that, I wonder ?
How would Mitchell deal with that ?
How would McVey deal with that ?
And why doesn't somebody ask them ?

From the transcript of Mr Justice Tugendhat's judgement in respect of the contempt of court proceedings it would appear the "hypothetical reasonable reader"  referred to at no.83 is the subject of his assertion that "a list of factual statements can carry an inferational meaning of each fact" at no.108.

http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/70feb13/RoyalCourts_21_02_2013.htm

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by PeterMac on 25.07.14 8:43

Thanks for that reference
"A list of factual statements can carry an inferential meaning additional to the literal meaning of each fact, "

But is this no more than St Katherine of the Multiple Immaculate Conceptions' dictum about coincidence in her Voluntary Statement, (Prosecution Exhibit KH 1)

As a lawyer once said to me, apropos another matter, ‘One coincidence, two coincidences – maybe they’re still coincidences. Any more than that and it stops being coincidence.’
This is no more than saying a string of facts can tend to coalesce into an inference, and then into an hypothesis, which if unchallenged and not 'falsified' (in the Popper sense) by any other "fact" can become a theory.

As in the following sequence.
Canon not handed to PJ - retained by TM
GM goes to UK 20/5
GM returns to Pdl 22/5
Mitchell goes to PdL 22/5
PM goes to PdL 22/5
Last Photo sent to french press agency 23/5
Last photo released to world's press 24/5 - with guff about "Look at the time, look at the time"
We DID look at the time, AND at the date.  And found they are wrong.

A list of individual facts, which are capable of carrying an inferential meaning . . . Or just too many of St Katherine's coincidenes ?

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by BlueBag on 25.07.14 8:57

@PeterMac wrote:
Canon not handed to PJ - retained by TM

That IS a pretty incredible fact all on its own.

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by comperedna on 25.07.14 11:32

If a list of facts, which are agreed facts, can be actionable in law because of the inference people could draw from them... well then the law truly IS an ass. Tugendhat going for what people might think if they read the list of facts?!! Facts in themselves being the baddies because of what people might think... after reading them? Crazy. Crazy.

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by roy rovers on 25.07.14 15:57

@PeterMac wrote:Thanks for that reference
"A list of factual statements can carry an inferential meaning additional to the literal meaning of each fact, "

But is this no more than St Katherine of the Multiple Immaculate Conceptions' dictum about coincidence in her Voluntary Statement, (Prosecution Exhibit KH 1)

As a lawyer once said to me, apropos another matter, ‘One coincidence, two coincidences – maybe they’re still coincidences. Any more than that and it stops being coincidence.’
This is no more than saying a string of facts can tend to coalesce into an inference, and then into an hypothesis, which if unchallenged and not 'falsified' (in the Popper sense) by any other "fact" can become a theory.

As in the following sequence.
Canon not handed to PJ - retained by TM
GM goes to UK 20/5
GM returns to Pdl 22/5
Mitchell goes to PdL 22/5
PM goes to PdL 22/5
Last Photo sent to french press agency 23/5
Last photo released to world's press 24/5 - with guff about "Look at the time, look at the time"
We DID look at the time, AND at the date.  And found they are wrong.

A list of individual facts, which are capable of carrying an inferential meaning . . . Or just too many of St Katherine's coincidenes ?



Hi PeterMac -
http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/jul/23/locog-settle-with-atopia-over-olympic-cauldron-opening-ceremony
A good one from Wednesday over the dispute over the design of the London Olympics opening ceremony cauldron which was settled out of court in favour of the New York Designers Atopia who claimed they had taken it to the Olympic authorities (now Locog) only to see it taken up by / passed onto another designer without any credit being given to them. Locog has acknowledged in a statement that New York-based practice Atopia came up with five design principles that would go on to become defining characteristics of the cauldron and paid out the requisite dosh. But as ever both Locog and the other designer have made no admission of liability. The similarities were too obvious and too many for them to wriggle out. '"There are too many bits of coincidence here," said Sir Robin Jacob, professor of intellectual property at UCL and former court of appeal judge'.

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by PeterMac on 25.07.14 17:08

@BlueBag wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
Canon not handed to PJ - retained by TM
That IS a pretty incredible fact all on its own.

Indeed so.
A single fact, which is itself capable of bearing an inferential meaning.
A fairly obvious meaning to anyone but a lobotomised nincompoop

How on earth does Tugendhat J think that people operate in life.
It has suddenly gone dark and there is a strong wind.
The inferential meaning is that a storm is coming and so I shall need a coat.


How does he think Police operate ?
They draw inferences from the facts presented, and then test the hypothesis by questioning witnesses and examining things in greater depth.
In this case by bringing in the dogs, some time after the event, to test a particular hypothesis, and to see if it is rejected.  It was't
In this case by examining the EXIF metadata of the Last Photo, and then beginning to form a hypothesis
Then testing that hypothesis by comparing the photo image against weather reports and eye witness accounts to see if the hypothesis is rejected.
It isn't, so we go on and look for more.

How does he think science works ?
That is EXACTLY how science works.

Remember that a single irrefutable 'fact' is sufficient to destroy the original hypothesis, either in a Police investigation, or in science.  You then have to start again with another one.

IF there is a decent irrefutable piece of evidence which shows that Madeleine Beth McCann was abducted from the apartment between 9pm and 10pm on 3/5/7
that will the end of all this speculation.   (And with respect St Katherine's - the disgraced ex-GP - statement I knew knew - is not quite enough)

IF a gas can be shown to increase in volume as the pressure rises - Boyle's Law is finished.

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by inspirespirit on 25.07.14 17:18

Wow... impressive piece of writing PeterMac.  I understood it as well which I'm pretty pleased about.   A lot of clever people on this forum.   clapping

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by jeanmonroe on 04.08.14 16:34

Anyone care to 'speculate' what DCI Redwood and a few of his 'elites' will actually be 'doing' in Portugal just days BEFORE the McCanns next court 'appearance/show' and the Judges 'verdict'?

Leaving no pizza untasted/unturned?

Searching for 'son' of JAWS, the child munching great white, in the balmy waters off PDL?

Searching for the late night barbers where Tannerman with his thick dark hair, passed his collar, went to have a 'trim' and emerged, 45 minutes later, as short hair 'cropped' Smithman/men who was 'seen' by Smith family and who DCI Redwood has authorised e-fits to be put on 'show' as his ONLY 'likely' er, 'suspect'?

memo to OG, if you're reading this: Nobody, i repeat, NOBODY, has 'figured out' your cunning "modus operandi" when the McCanns are 'due' in Portugal.

Well, when i say NOBODY, i actually mean only the undiscovered 'tribes' in the Amazon Jungle.  winkwink

The rest of the world's population MIGHT have 'noticed'  laughat laughat 

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by PeterMac on 04.08.14 16:53

@jeanmonroe wrote:Anyone care to 'speculate' what DCI Redwood and a few of his 'elites' will actually be 'doing' in Portugal just days BEFORE the McCanns next court 'appearance/show' and the Judges 'verdict'?
Leaving no pizza untasted/unturned?

Searching for 'son' of JAWS, the child munching great white, in the balmy waters off PDL?

Searching for the late night barbers where Tannerman with his thick dark hair, passed his collar, went to have a 'trim' and emerged, 45 minutes later, as short hair 'cropped' Smithman/men who was 'seen' by Smith family and who DCI Redwood has authorised e-fits to be put on 'show' as his ONLY 'likely' er, 'suspect'?
SPOILER ALERT
Now you have really spoiled their fun, ruined the final chapter of the new book, shut down Operation Grange

Shame on you !  Mr

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by sar on 04.08.14 17:38

@PeterMac wrote:
@jeanmonroe wrote:Anyone care to 'speculate' what DCI Redwood and a few of his 'elites' will actually be 'doing' in Portugal just days BEFORE the McCanns next court 'appearance/show' and the Judges 'verdict'?
Leaving no pizza untasted/unturned?

Searching for 'son' of JAWS, the child munching great white, in the balmy waters off PDL?

Searching for the late night barbers where Tannerman with his thick dark hair, passed his collar, went to have a 'trim' and emerged, 45 minutes later, as short hair 'cropped' Smithman/men who was 'seen' by Smith family and who DCI Redwood has authorised e-fits to be put on 'show' as his ONLY 'likely' er, 'suspect'?
SPOILER ALERT
Now you have really spoiled their fun, ruined the final chapter of the new book, shut down Operation Grange

Shame on you !  Mr
"We're gonna need a bigger helicopter!"

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by inspirespirit on 08.09.14 10:13

Was this not meant to re-start today?  I have 8th September in my head for some reason.   dance

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by sar on 08.09.14 11:04

@inspirespirit wrote:Was this not meant to re-start today?  I have 8th September in my head for some reason.   dance
prob gonna be postponned for a bit, lots going on just now "look over there not over here" etc

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by Guest on 08.09.14 11:18

@inspirespirit wrote:Was this not meant to re-start today?  I have 8th September in my head for some reason.   dance
Its not certain whether the same Judge will be reappointed to listen to the closing arguments from the Lawyers,didn't Mitchell say it could drag on for another five years whether that was in hope or anticipation we know not.

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by Guest on 08.09.14 14:24

Who doesn't remember those erstwhile pictures of aircraft landing or taking off from the Hilla airfield in Bagdad, spreading all those lovely little silver strips in order to dodge the FLAK?

Now, for those of us who believe that history repeats itself: picture the TM Albatros approaching Lisboa Court House at an unknown point in time, while all around it we now notice for obscuring that little but oh-so interesting newsfact, in random order of appearance: the Ebola crisis, the Ukraine crisis, the ISIS-crisis, the Scottish Independence crisis, AND the poor Duchess of Cambridges' now appearing pregnancy-health crisis

How's all of that for diversion?

What fiendishly clever planning to put it all together!

The UK may still lose the U, but it will certainly keep the K? Well: here's for little prince(ss) Cambridge II, and long may he/she reign over Scotland! If this doesn't destroy the NO vote, (NO I don't want to stay in the Union) nothing will

Fascinating stuff btw, to see the UK scramble all its resources now, having ignored and ridiculed the Scots YES drive till it topped 51% yesterday

Good luck to you Brits, and I mean it!

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by cloak'ndagger on 08.09.14 15:05

One of our Portuguese friends says it the next date for the libel hearing is likely to be closer to Christmas

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by Google.Gaspar.Statements on 08.09.14 15:45

@cloak'ndagger wrote:One of our Portuguese friends says it the next date for the libel hearing is likely to be closer to Christmas

You've got to be kidding? Just how long is this going on for? sad1

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by BlueBag on 08.09.14 15:47

@cloak'ndagger wrote:One of our Portuguese friends says it the next date for the libel hearing is likely to be closer to Christmas

Oh dear.

Do Scotland Yard know this?

Also the BBC will need to make a Crimewatch Christmas Special with special guests.

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by Guest on 08.09.14 16:45

@BlueBag wrote:
@cloak'ndagger wrote:One of our Portuguese friends says it the next date for the libel hearing is likely to be closer to Christmas

Oh dear.

Do Scotland Yard know this?

Also the BBC will need to make a Crimewatch Christmas Special with special guests.
When is Redwood retiring? is it the end of the year?

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by sar on 08.09.14 16:48

@BlueBag wrote:
@cloak'ndagger wrote:One of our Portuguese friends says it the next date for the libel hearing is likely to be closer to Christmas

Oh dear.

Do Scotland Yard know this?

Also the BBC will need to make a Crimewatch Christmas Special with special guests.
maybe some one can play santa claws and have some cuffs in his sack, "Ho Ho Ho" followed by 'Click Click'  "You have been a naughty boy and girl" "Wah....we thought you got prezzies at xmas!"

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by HelenMeg on 09.09.14 12:13

I'm really looking forward to the Christmas Crimewatch Special. Will Kate and gerry be there ?  
Will Philip Edmonds be there? Perhaps Russel O'Brien will make a guest appearance.

Hopefully Kirsty and even Lorraine Kelly may be presenting.  It will be so much fun. Andy is so good at those shows and I'll be ecstatic if Sir Bergan-Howe makes a speech.

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by HelenMeg on 23.09.14 11:11


They look distinctly 'uncoupled' in this photo. I'd have expected a 'supportive closeness' following the appearance at the trial  - but this makes hem appear distinctly at odds with each other. I'm puzzled as to why

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by Rufus T on 23.09.14 15:53

@HelenMeg wrote:
They look distinctly 'uncoupled' in this photo. I'd have expected a 'supportive closeness' following the appearance at the trial  - but this makes hem appear distinctly at odds with each other. I'm puzzled as to why
Perhaps they are, or could just be that she is leaning over to open/shut the door/window.

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by bobbin on 23.09.14 16:23

@Rufus T wrote:
@HelenMeg wrote:
They look distinctly 'uncoupled' in this photo. I'd have expected a 'supportive closeness' following the appearance at the trial  - but this makes hem appear distinctly at odds with each other. I'm puzzled as to why
Perhaps they are, or could just be that she is leaning over to open/shut the door/window.
True, but to me their faces both look 'end game'.

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Re: LAST DAY OF LIBEL TRIAL 8th July 2014 DISCUSSION AND NEWS

Post by HelenMeg on 23.09.14 20:01

@bobbin wrote:
@Rufus T wrote:
@HelenMeg wrote:
They look distinctly 'uncoupled' in this photo. I'd have expected a 'supportive closeness' following the appearance at the trial  - but this makes hem appear distinctly at odds with each other. I'm puzzled as to why
Perhaps they are, or could just be that she is leaning over to open/shut the door/window.
True, but to me their faces both look 'end game'.
Yes she might be putting seat belt on or something but given their hands are normally locked together - they havent even made an effort for the cameras. Gerry's hands are very primly crossed on his lap - most unlike them when in the public eye. Just an observation.

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